Yeah but it's one feat, unlike the feats and loads of skill points a wizard needs to spend to be half decent at Move Silently.

Quote from: kryystRogue's in 3.0 or 3.5 kick all kinds of ass they are one of the better classes from start to finish.  Mix in a couple levels of fighter along the way for a little added beef and they are amazing.  Their feats and skill compliment each other perfectly and just keep racking up that Use Magical Device and Rogues are truly kick ass.

So a stand alone Rogue is not worth playing?

Quote from: Eli the VileSo a stand alone Rogue is not worth playing?

I think they are. I had a rogue that did well myself, and I played in a game with a guy who played a rogue who was kick-ass. Between sneak-attack and dual-wielding he laid down some serious damage in combat, and out of combat he was pretty much our go-to guy in all kinds of different situations becausse of his skills.....search/disable skills.....social skills....knowledge skills....he had a bit of everything.

Quote from: Eli the VileSo a stand alone Rogue is not worth playing?

Games that I've been in or run, single class rogues have kicked arse big time.

On a side note, in a game with a starting level of 6, the Rog3/Wiz3 I made totally rocked.  With a high Dex, ranged touch attacks aren't hard to make, and sneak attack damage makes 0 level 1d3 damages spells pack a nice bite...

Yeah I have in the game I run a flat 13th level halfling rogue wielding a warsling that is frankly hard to stop, short of using glitterdust on him.  He maxed out his stealth skills and stacked up on stealth magic items and snipes at range (and hides).  He does more damage than the main-line beef typically.

One thing I've seen about fighter\rogues is that you have to be careful about figuring out how you want to use them.  If you aren't, you can end up with a 2nd line fighter and a 2nd line thief.  On a passing note, high intelligence seems to be more important than dexterity to a rogue.  Another thing that I think is overlooked quite a bit is that rogues have Use Magic Device as a class skill.  As far as flexibility and survivability I think a rogue can hold its own (if I was playing and had to pick between having a rogue or a wizard in the party, I'd have to go with the rogue).

If you simply have made some bad choices I'd consider seeing a Psion about Psychic Reformation for a do over.

Quote from: cnath.rmGames that I've been in or run, single class rogues have kicked arse big time.

On a side note, in a game with a starting level of 6, the Rog3/Wiz3 I made totally rocked.  With a high Dex, ranged touch attacks aren't hard to make, and sneak attack damage makes 0 level 1d3 damages spells pack a nice bite...

Or a warlock 1/rogue 5.

Evasion and Uncanndy dodge, 1d6 dmg, range touch all day, +3d6 sneak.

:win:

Quote from: TrainzOr a warlock 1/rogue 5.

Evasion and Uncanndy dodge, 1d6 dmg, range touch all day, +3d6 sneak.

:win:

Or you make a Warlock 5/Rogue 1

Detect magic at will, DR 1/cold iron, Decieve Item (Take 10 on Use Magic Device!), and three least invocations of your choice. Plus you do 3d6 at will on a ranged touch attack at a range of 30' with the occasional +1d6 sneak attack, instead of vice versa.

Quote from: CleanCutRogueI was a little pissed when our group's wizard (who has such a high Intelligence bonus that she gets plenty of skill points) was able to move silently better than me...

How in the hell is this possible? For startersm you've probably got a higher dex score, right? Secondly, at any given level you are capable of having twice as many points in the skill than the wizard.

The only way I see this as possible is if the wizard multi-classed into one with move silently as a class skill and dumped ALL current skill points into it. At best, the ranks would be equal unless the wizard is of a higher level.

Also, a rogue gets 8 points / level and a wizard 2. The wizard would have to have a 22 intelligence just to match your 8 / level.

Quote from: GeoFFieldsHow in the hell is this possible? For startersm you've probably got a higher dex score, right?

No, he doesn't.  The wizard rolled better...

Quote from: CleanCutRogueCuz I have a rogue with a 15 dexterity and crappy Intelligence score, and I multiclass equally with a Fighter. The Wizard has an amazing INT and DEX (lucky dice rolling) and is concentrating on stealth (with feats and gear, etc). At lower levels, the Wiz was better. Of course as time progressed I became better at it - but no amout of skill points I spend will get me a spell, while he can dabble like mad in what I do. That's my point.

Let's assume that the Wizard rolled an 18 Dexterity, which would qualify as "amazing", I think, to a Rogue with a 15 Dexterity. For now, Intelligence is irrelevent, since we'll only be looking at one skill, Move Silently, which we'll try to maximaize as a standard Wizard.

First, we make our Wizard a Halfling. This gives us an additional +2 bonus to Dexterity for a total Dexterity ability score of 20, and also a +2 racial bonus to Move Silently checks. Already, we have an untrained bonus of +7 to Move Silently.

Next, we drop 4 skill points into the cross-class skill, bringing us up to +9.

We choose a cat familiar for another +3 bonus, for a total bonus of +12.

Finally, we can pick Skill Focus (Move Silently) as our first level feat for an additional +3...  +15 altogether.

And that's not counting Spells or MAgic Items that could come into play later.

A best, a first level Rogue with a 15 Dexterity will likely have a Move Silently of +9 (+2 Dex, +4 ranks, +3 Skill Focus)... +11 if he's a Halfling or a Human. It'll probably take that Rogue 3 to 5 levels to catch up with the Wizard.

Granted, it a pretty ludicrous example, but it is possible, if the Wizard's player is bent on making the Rogue's player look like a fool.

Quote from: CyclotronOr you make a Warlock 5/Rogue 1

Detect magic at will, DR 1/cold iron, Decieve Item (Take 10 on Use Magic Device!), and three least invocations of your choice. Plus you do 3d6 at will on a ranged touch attack at a range of 30' with the occasional +1d6 sneak attack, instead of vice versa.

Yeah, well, of course.

But that ain't a rogue anymore, it's almost a straight warlock.

And switch that rogue level for a 6th warlock level and you've got a LESSER invoc... :win:

Overall, I'd say the problem is that the group is rolling ability scores in 3e.  So yes, some characters are going to be much better overall at low levels.  It would be less disruptive IMO to roll 1d4 for starting levels.  At least eventually you'd catch up that way.

Quote from: CleanCutRogueRogues have always been my favorite class.  So when I converted to D&D 3rd edition (now 3.5) so long ago - I feel my favorite class got the short end of the stick.

I grew up with 1st edition, and a while before 3rd edition was released, I was thinking about ways to improve rogues (we called them thieves back then) after flipping through The Throne of Bloodstone. It's a high level adventure for characters from level 18 to 100.
 
It gives pregenerated 100th level characters, on the off chance that the players don't have any of their own. Hermes is a 100th level thief with a 25 dexterity. Here are his thief skills: Pick Pockets:170%, Open Locks 154%, Find/Remove Traps: 145%, Move Silently 134%, Hide in Shadow 134%, Hear Noise 65%, Climb Walls 84.7%, Read Languages 80%, Use scrolls at 25% and 5x backstab multiplier.
 
Two things: Once I made a campaign with really high level characters and one of them had thief skills. His sheet was written up so that he was automatically successful unless there were extenuating circumstances. The other thing is Hear Noise at 65%?! What?! Climb Walls fails 3 times out of twenty?! My first level Spiderclimbing mage has a better success rate than that.

I was pretty happy with rogues in 3rd edition. As a couple other people before me have said, I don't think they're the best stand alone class, but nor are the totally worthless, and with evasion, oodles of skills and improved sneak attack damage, they are orders of magnitude better than what they were.

Quote from: CyclotronNo, he doesn't.  The wizard rolled better...

 
Let's assume that the Wizard rolled an 18 Dexterity, which would qualify as "amazing", I think, to a Rogue with a 15 Dexterity. For now, Intelligence is irrelevent, since we'll only be looking at one skill, Move Silently, which we'll try to maximaize as a standard Wizard.

First, we make our Wizard a Halfling. This gives us an additional +2 bonus to Dexterity for a total Dexterity ability score of 20, and also a +2 racial bonus to Move Silently checks. Already, we have an untrained bonus of +7 to Move Silently.

Next, we drop 4 skill points into the cross-class skill, bringing us up to +9.

We choose a cat familiar for another +3 bonus, for a total bonus of +12.

Finally, we can pick Skill Focus (Move Silently) as our first level feat for an additional +3...  +15 altogether.

And that's not counting Spells or MAgic Items that could come into play later.

A best, a first level Rogue with a 15 Dexterity will likely have a Move Silently of +9 (+2 Dex, +4 ranks, +3 Skill Focus)... +11 if he's a Halfling or a Human. It'll probably take that Rogue 3 to 5 levels to catch up with the Wizard.

Granted, it a pretty ludicrous example, but it is possible, if the Wizard's player is bent on making the Rogue's player look like a fool.

And of course the Wiz is gimping himself in other areas....giving up having another metamagic or caster-related feat to get the skill focus, sacrificing Knowledge, Spellcraft, and/or Concentration skill ranks to get his stealth.