Quote from: jibbajibba;675201

Having got into a pretty serious fight last night in an elevator in Hong Kong I can certainly say that the hit-points damage I took certainly feel like physical wounds and look like them as well

That's because you're low level.  If you were a high level skilled MMA fighter, when most HP is to reflect skill, experience, and luck, you would have been able to essentially reduce the effectiveness of his strikes to be less effective.  After all, his attack roles would have been the same, but your abilities, as reflective in the definition of hit points, would have made them less of an issue

Quote from: jibbajibba;673493I find myself siding with Kiero and Piestrio.

the fact that there is loads of discussion and description of HPs as luck and fatigue and skill etc doesn't matter if the opnly mechanical way you can get them back is healing.

I can write pages of stuff in a rule book about how loads of stuff but its just fluff unless the mechanics support it.

This.

The funny thing is, if it was a "New School" game featuring this same thing - fluff text saying X and actual mechanics saying Y - it would be bashed as a glaring error of design.

But its D&D so it must be perfect, right?

Quote from: silva;675278This.

The funny thing is, if it was a "New School" game featuring this same thing - fluff text saying X and actual mechanics saying Y - it would be bashed as a glaring error of design.

But its D&D so it must be perfect, right?

I'm assuming you never read the thread, otherwise you would have seen people post the ways to recover hp outside of healing.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;675281I'm assuming you never read the thread, otherwise you would have seen people post the ways to recover hp outside of healing.

I didn't see those posts.

I saw a few posts citing how you gain HP through levelling and loose them if ou loose levels of course.
I saw some posts about gaining HPs back when you polymorph, which I always thought was due to the polymorph aiding your healing.
I saw a post that pointed out that alcohol gave you a temporary HP boost.
Didn't see one that clearly gave examples of you loosing HP you lost in combat, falling, through magical attack, poison or whatever could be gained back in any way other than healing whether normal or magical.

My point through all this of course is that HP should be skill and luck and stamina that makes sense but when 4e actually set up some stuff that mechanically emulated that it was a huge point of contention and outrage.

Now I also think you need some physical wounds as well so a separate way of tracking that but I understand that it might be too complex. HPs work as a mechanic but they don't work like they are explained.

Now I am going to pull out of the thread because I don't want to cause ill feeling I have to rest to try and heal back some of these hip points

Quote from: jibbajibba;675282Didn't see one that clearly gave examples of you loosing HP you lost in combat, falling, through magical attack, poison or whatever could be gained back in any way other than healing whether normal or magical.

That's because there aren't any.  HPs are extremely abstracted, and the way in which they are described in the text does not match up with the ways in which you can gain and lose them.  Period.Full.Stop.

Some people can handwave it away and still immerse, some can't and go to a different game.

All the rest is people not willing to give an inch for fear of giving up the ground that will lead someone else to take a mile.  The Usual Suspects aren't the only people who give in to that tendency, unfortunately.

Quote from: silva;675278But its D&D so it must be perfect, right?

Perfect? No.

People being pedantic over a non-issue within the system? Yes.

Quote from: jibbajibba;675282I didn't see those posts.

I saw a few posts citing how you gain HP through levelling and loose them if ou loose levels of course.
I saw some posts about gaining HPs back when you polymorph, which I always thought was due to the polymorph aiding your healing.
I saw a post that pointed out that alcohol gave you a temporary HP boost.
Didn't see one that clearly gave examples of you loosing HP you lost in combat, falling, through magical attack, poison or whatever could be gained back in any way other than healing whether normal or magical.

So you didn't see the post(s) where after X amount of time, you automatically go back to full hit points?  That includes a 150 hit point character who suffered dozens of wounds, some very serious to bring him down to 1 hp.  A few weeks later, tada!  Back to max.  Anything beyond a moderate wound doesn't heal in a couple weeks; they usually take a lot longer.  The fact that you're recovering all those hp is representative that you can gain hp back via just resting.  And no, resting from exhaustion is not the same as healing a physical wound.

You also didn't see those posts where certain spells and spell like abilities transfer life energy.  That's a recovery of hp that isn't tied to a wound.  That's a transfer of life energy directly.

But of course you saw those posts because they were the same ones that held the other examples you did quote.  You're just deliberately ignoring them because it completely ruins the "hp are always tied to physical wounds" argument.

I would just like to say that, if a rule is still creating so much trouble about its nonsensical consequences after more than 4 editions and 40 years, probably it was not a very good idea to start with. Said that, something the most popular ideas are not the best realized ideas. Go figure. Also, things become a tradition quite fast.

Seriously: if it was a solvable problem (with other solution than changing games, that is), it would probably been solved long time ago. Most D&Disms are like that: if you like them, pointing the flaws on them is not swaying your opinion, and the opposite is also true. So there.

Quote from: Imperator;675343Seriously: if it was a solvable problem (with other solution than changing games, that is), it would probably been solved long time ago. Most D&Disms are like that: if you like them, pointing the flaws on them is not swaying your opinion, and the opposite is also true. So there.

The problem isn't that it's not a solvable problem. The problem is that some people see it as a problem when it's not a problem at all.

It's a feature, not a flaw.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;674739

QuoteWhen you're back, we can pick up with this question: Do you have a quote from the AD&D core rulebooks stating that these other sources of hit point loss don't include a physical wound?

The description of some of the things that reduce hit points!  I am assuming that the authors of D&D through the ages didn't think that the readers were so fucking stupid that they'd read something like "You transfer life energy from you and give it to an ally" as a physical wound that they would feel the need to say "Nope, not a physical wound here.  We're talking about life force.  Just so you know."

So, no, you can't. Thanks. Glad we got that cleared up.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;674739Because everyone else with a 1st grade reading level knows that when a spell says, "all hit point loss from only physical wounds"...

Anyone with a 1st grade reading level would notice that you just made up a quote that, AFAICT, doesn't exist in AD&D.

Quote from: mcbobbo;674921Just to be fair, he is posting not as just some dude with an opinion, but as "Justin Alexander who links to my own blog as an authoritative source".  So while you can say, "that's a good point, I didn't see it that way", dude really can't.   Not without damaging his 'brand'.

I literally just posted in this thread a statement that Exploderwizard had pointed out an error in what I had said. How stupid do you have to be to make a personal attack claiming that someone never, ever does something that they literally did one page earlier in the same thread?

I'll also gladly welcome you citing any instance in which I linked to my own blog as an "authoritative source", as opposed to linking to my blog for additional details on what I was talking about.

I notice that you followed up by blatantly misquoting me and then linking to the essay that shows that you're misquoting me. So I guess you're just hoping that people aren't paying attention to the fact that you're just making shit up?

Quote from: Justin Alexander;675348So, no, you can't. Thanks. Glad we got that cleared up.

You're the one making the argument that hit point loss is only related to physical injury.  Show me the quote in the book where is says this, otherwise you are clearly full of shit, by your own standards you are trying to apply to me.

And before you say, "I did show quotes", let me remind that that all of the quotes you provided were prefaced with "on a successful hit", so clearly they were situational and not applied to everything.  The fact that they were prefaced with a condition should tell you right there that there are instances where hit point loss/gain is not due to physical injury.

I, on the other hand, have shown you quotes that clearly infer that hit point loss and recovery isn't only tied to physical injury.  That's more than what you have.

QuoteAnyone with a 1st grade reading level would notice that you just made up a quote that, AFAICT, doesn't exist in AD&D.

I've already quoted the spell from the book.  Once again, for the intellectually impaired:

Quote...heal all hit points of damage suffered due to wounds or
injury,..

Essentially Justin, you are like Bagdad Bob from the first first Gulf War, insisting on making an argument despite the evidence clearly not supporting you.  I'm pretty sure you can't be this dumb, so I have to assume you're being disingenuous.  So welcome to my ignore list.  Congrats on that, you're now with the likes of taustin, FASERIP, and Sommerjon.

Quote from: Imperator;675343I would just like to say that, if a rule is still creating so much trouble about its nonsensical consequences after more than 4 editions and 40 years

The only place where this rule creates "so much trouble" is on internet message boards with people whining about how D&D is "broken" and "bad" and "nonsensical", pushing that line of thought to open the door for their pet-theories about how the game must be "fixed" or "that game is so much more realistic" and bullshit. At an actual game table, it's never been a problem for me and, I'm guessing, a gazillion other gamers who played D&D for the last 40 years through 4 editions or so, and may be still playing the game today, as I am.

It's pure, TOTAL wank bullshit. Useless fuckwitery for ignoramuses content to wallow in their own pedantic mediocrity.

Quote from: Benoist;675359The only place where this rule creates "so much trouble" is on internet message boards with people whining about how D&D is "broken" and "bad" and "nonsensical", pushing that line of thought to open the door for their pet-theories about how the game must be "fixed" or "that game is so much more realistic" and bullshit. At an actual game table, it's never been a problem for me and, I'm guessing, a gazillion other gamers who played D&D for the last 40 years through 4 editions or so, and may be still playing the game today, as I am.

It's pure, TOTAL wank bullshit. Useless fuckwitery for ignoramuses content to wallow in their own pedantic mediocrity.

Exactly.  Whether or not you view hit points as physical only damage, or luck, or a combination of whatever isn't a troubled rule by itself.  If it works or the game, then it's fine.  And it has been fine for the majority of gamers for 4 decades.

Quote from: Benoist;675359It's pure, TOTAL wank bullshit. Useless fuckwitery for ignoramuses content to wallow in their own pedantic mediocrity.

I like you. Want to go out on a date?

Quote from: Benoist;675359Useless fuckwitery for ignoramuses content to wallow in their own pedantic mediocrity.

Welcome to the intrewebs.