Quote from: Sacrosanct;673387Which makes sense in the fact that in AD&D, you had one attack per round, but a round lasted 1 minute.  It's entirely reasonable to view "you lost 4 hit points" as "you got hit 4 times in that one minute of combat."

A "hit" in that one minute of combat could be actually a series of cuts, blows exchanged, maneuvering around each other and so on. It's basically up to specific interpretations in each particular situation depending on context. Which is why (IMO) the hit points abstraction is formidable such as it is.

Hit points in Runequest were designed specifically to mirror physical damage vs. D&D's abstract damage. In fact, pretty much everything in Runequest was done to objectify purposefully abstract D&D concepts. If you somehow think hit points = physical damage in D&D, either you've never read a single D&D book or you're playing devil's advocate (or maybe you're trolling).

EDIT: For characters. Monster HD is directly related to physical damage.

Quote from: Brad;673390If you somehow think hit points = physical damage in D&D, either you've never read a single D&D book or you're playing devil's advocate (or maybe you're trolling).

or in the case of the OP, you're thick.

I'm not particularly interested in gnawing at the philosophy of a bunch of rules that some guys made up on the go because nobody has done so before them, but on a practical level, I've introduced a houserule into a campaign that IMO worked well and which addresses the issue of how HP (as written) are just too abstract to really explain satisfactorily.

So, in my game, HP strictly represent stamina, parrying, rolling with the blow, willpower, resisting shellshock and not getting slowed down by light bruises and cuts - so, the sort of thing official HP is supposed to largely represent. Since it explicitly does not include actual metal-in-your-guts injuries, they return at a rather fast rate naturally - taking a breather and quaffing down some fine wine as you sit on the giant carcass of a slain monster will return you a small handful, a night's decent sleep by a campfire after a frugal supper will restore 1 HP per level, and a night in a proper soft bed at the inn after a hearty meal will restore it all.

However, when you're at 0 HP, it means you're just too fatigued and shell-shocked to properly defend yourself. If you take any more damage, it gets doubled (I might forego this step in a more heroic campaign), and is deducted directly from your Strength, Dexterity or Stamina, chosen at random. This way, actual serious stabs, cuts and the like DO immediately decrease your combat effectiveness by reducing your strength bonus and AC. Any one of your stats reaching 0 means you're dead.

Yup, it's pretty much the Classic Traveller wound system bolted onto D&D Hit Points, and I found it works well.

Is it 1978 up in this bitch?

Quote from: Benoist;673381That's taken from the game Kiero wants to see emulated by all other variants of D&D because...

Not sure where you got this from. If you've bothered to read any of his posts on his campaign set up, he has rather significantly houseruled ACKS. I've thought on occasion that he would be far better served by a game that isn't a D&D derivative at all.

Quote from: Benoist;673381*cough cough*

 

That's taken from the game Kiero wants to see emulated by all other variants of D&D because "hit points represent physical damage only."

...

*blink blink*

I guess Kiero hasn't read his own rules book.

You mean yet more meaningless text I discarded while I changed how the actual mechanics worked?

Because the critical stuff is on p104-5, which I altered thus:

QuoteEffects of Damage (p104)

Record your Bloodied value underneath your hit points; this is equal to one half of your full hit points. The first half of your hitpoints represent bruising, minor fatigue, minor cuts and grazes. Drop into the second half (Bloodied) and you're into major fatigue, heavier bruising, more serious cuts, muscle pulls and so on, which give a -1 to hit, Proficiencies and saves and movement is reduced by 30'.

Hit zero (and up to negative your Constitution score) and you're in danger of going unconscious, having to make a Fort (Poison and Death) save every round to stay with it. Even then you're at a -2 to hit, Proficiencies and saves, and movement reduced by 60'. Fail a save or drop below negative your Constitution and you're unconscious (and we get into Mortal Wounds).

QuoteHealing (p105)

Natural healing is equal to half your level in hp per day. If this is less than 1hp, then you take a number of days equal to that fraction to recover one hp. This is halved if a character is Bloodied (once you are above ½ maximum you return to the normal rate). This is doubled if under the care of someone with the Healing Proficiency. Furthermore, for every week of complete rest (no major exertion such as combat, running, swimming and so on), you recover an additional amount of hit points equal to your Con bonus.

Note that the healing times required to return to 1hp from the Mortal Wounds table still apply.

Quote from: talysman;673374That's the thing about Kiero's argument: even he acknowledges, with stuff like the "throwaway text" and redefining subduing a creature as physical damage, that the rules say otherwise. See, it's one thing to look at the rules and say "I don't like this part about hit points being luck, because I don't think the rest of the rules support it well, so I'm going to change it." And it's another thing to say "The rules don't actually say that, because LALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!"

There's no redefinition necessary, subdual is about non-lethal damage. It's "flat of the blade" and all that jazz. That's still physical. Or are you seriously arguing the rules say you sweet-talk that dragon into serving you?

Quote from: talysman;673374#1 is wrong, because not all monsters that do hp damage have physical forms. Sometimes, you die for other reasons, or you're turned into a mind-controlled automaton when you hit zero points, etc.

Monsters don't have to have a physical form to do physical damage, that's the supernatural bit. Because unsurprisingly magic-related stuff tends towards exceptions to the usual run of things.

How come non-physical attacks like charm person or fear don't do damage?

Quote from: talysman;673374# 2 is wrong, because there are spells and magic that provide boosts above normal hit points. Not to mention the intoxication rules on pp. 82-83 of the 1e DMG, which state that Moderate and Severe Intoxication add hit points over and above your normal hit points.

I now you hate being wrong, so I'm going to rub it in and quote part of that "empty text".

Stuff that invariably provides temporary and small boosts to hit points, and still don't impact recovery.

Quote from: talysman;673374Etc. Gygax must have been psychic, because he goes on for a couple more paragraphs demonstrating why hit points were never meant to represent just physical damage. Why you consider it "empty text", I don't know, since it is describing hit die advancement and hit points increasing with level, something that is very integrated into the rules and does not support hit points as physical damage AT ALL.

Which aren't actually linked into how you recover hit points. It's almost as if he's saying something without bothering to support it.

We have a supposed level-related "increase in skill" at avoiding damage, yet nothing on the recovery side of the equation to reflect that same skill. If healing was level-linked this might have some truth to it (and it would represent some actual integration between the two), but it doesn't. So it's bunk.

Like I said, empty text. Tell me anything you like about how you'd like to imagine these things, but I look to how the mechanics actually work, and they contradict this.

Quote from: talysman;673374But that's not all! What about saving throws?



See? The whole idea of save vs. poison ties into the idea of hit points being luck. You save vs. poison because sometimes no amount of luck is going to save you from that snakebite. The same would apply to the Finger of Death. These rules, plus the intoxication rules, plus many other rules, are the "support" for hit points as luck and skill that you say is missing.

Now, you can say "those are bad rules, so I'm going to change them so that hit points only represent physical damage". Or you could play another edition or another game entirely that you feel has better integrated rules. But stop claiming that something that is obviously there is not there. It just makes you look like an idiot.

They're exceptions that work around hit points. Which doesn't actually change anything in the lack of linkage between level and recovery.

It's like you didn't even read my post, which was #3 I think.  The recovery mechanic in D&D since day one pretty much tells you that all hit point loss isn't physical damage.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;673424It's like you didn't even read my post, which was #3 I think.  The recovery mechanic in D&D since day one pretty much tells you that all hit point loss isn't physical damage.

Fatigue and exhaustion are still elements of physical condition.

And again, higher level characters should surely recover those elements faster, if that's what is inflating their totals.

Quote from: Kiero;673426Fatigue and exhaustion are still elements of physical condition.

And again, higher level characters should surely recover those elements faster, if that's what is inflating their totals.

From Sacrosanct's post quoting the AD&D DMG:

QuoteThe remainder, a significant portion of hit points at higher levels, stands for skill, luck, and/or magical factors.

Don't see anything about fatigue or exhaustion anywhere in there.

Quote from: Brad;673390If you somehow think hit points = physical damage in D&D, either you've never read a single D&D book or you're playing devil's advocate (or maybe you're trolling).

EDIT: For characters. Monster HD is directly related to physical damage.

funny.

As much as I think of HP as abstract I've still always described damage as psyical.

It's just not a big deal.

8 damage on a level 2 fighter is a "vicious slash across the chest, spraying blood on the wall", and 8 damage on a 10th level fighter is "a cut on the arm, dripping blood down onto your hand".

As people level they deal/receive less damage?  Unless it's magic, then it's kinda the same all the way up.

One way to look at it I guess

Quote from: Sommerjon;673436As people level they deal/receive less damage?  Unless it's magic, then it's kinda the same all the way up.

One way to look at it I guess

I've been playing and running D&D for almost 20 years and its just never been an issue.

It feels like an "Internet problem".