Quote from: Sommerjon;677590No, you prefer certain mechanics.  Emulation is your justification to shit on everything else.

There must be a communication issue here.  What do you mean by the word emulation? Because I am having trouble thinking about RPG rules as something which doesn't involve emulating something.  It's a concept so intertwined with RPG rules that I don't understand how one can conceive of one without the other.

And understand I am no Pundit fanboi or anything.  I just think he's saying "water is wet", and I am having trouble understanding why you're disagreeing that water is wet.

Everything is a communications issue to Sommerjon.

Quote from: RPGPundit;678016No, emulation is real, its the point of RPGs, and you look like an idiot for denying it.

YOU-There are clearly mechanics that contribute for, or against emulation, on at least two spectrums:
1. Whether the mechanics reflect the genre you're trying to emulate
2. Whether the mechanics are clunky enough to get in the way of the emulation.

Hit points are decent enough at number 1, and much better at number 2 than any of those fiddly 'damage track' mechanics.

ME-No, you prefer certain mechanics. Emulation is your justification to shit on everything else.

I didn't deny emulation.  Emulation is utterly subjective.   I implied you're a moron for trying to appeal to the board.

Seems pretty straightforward to me...

We all know what HPs are trying to emulate; a hero's ability to last longer in a fight as their skill increases. Do HPs accomplish this? Yes. That's not a matter of personal preference. That's exactly what they do.

As to Pundit's second point, there are so many wound systems that the idea that one can make a generalized statement about them ("they are all clunkier than HPs") is meaningless and demonstrably false.

So I agree with Pundit on point 1, and think the 2nd claim is stupid.

Quote from: TristramEvans;678267As to Pundit's second point, there are so many wound systems that the idea that one can make a generalized statement about them ("they are all clunkier than HPs") is meaningless and demonstrably false.

Its only demonstrably false if you can give an example of a Wound system that is not 'clunkier' than HPs.

And tbh, I can't think of one.

Quote from: jadrax;678316Its only demonstrably false if you can give an example of a Wound system that is not 'clunkier' than HPs.

And tbh, I can't think of one.

Depends on how you define 'clunky'.

If by clunky you mean "difficult to match with any kind of real-life idea of how injuries work," then there's lots of examples.

If by clunky you mean "requires lots of fiddling around with crap so that I can get on to shit I actually care about," then HP is probably the least clunky wound mechanic out there.

Quote from: jadrax;678316Its only demonstrably false if you can give an example of a Wound system that is not 'clunkier' than HPs.

And tbh, I can't think of one.

Dr. Who - wounds are subtracted from attributes.

Neverwhere / The Window - wounds are roleplayed only

The Pool / Risus - Wounds take away dice from the general pool

007 - attacks cause either a Light Wound, Moderate Wound , Heavy Wound etc. you mark down a check for every type of wound, and if one row fills up it spills into the next.

Cineflex - Wounds are recorded as 1-3 points at a time, and provide a negative modifier to a health roll at the end of combat.

The Diamond Age - characters have a group of hearts, much like Zelda, and these are reduced by parts or wholes.

Puppet land - the character sheet has a pic of the puppet divided into puzzle pieces. Everytime you take a wound, a piece is coloured in.

Tribe 8 - characters have listed thresholds for light, moderate, severe etc wounds. Damage is compared to the highest threshold surpassed and the character gets a wound of that type.

Those are just off of the top of my head. Each has it's advantages and disadvantages, but none are cllunkier in execution than HPs.

Quote from: TristramEvans;678626Dr. Who - wounds are subtracted from attributes.

Neverwhere / The Window - wounds are roleplayed only

The Pool / Risus - Wounds take away dice from the general pool

007 - attacks cause either a Light Wound, Moderate Wound , Heavy Wound etc. you mark down a check for every type of wound, and if one row fills up it spills into the next.

Cineflex - Wounds are recorded as 1-3 points at a time, and provide a negative modifier to a health roll at the end of combat.

The Diamond Age - characters have a group of hearts, much like Zelda, and these are reduced by parts or wholes.

Puppet land - the character sheet has a pic of the puppet divided into puzzle pieces. Everytime you take a wound, a piece is coloured in.

Tribe 8 - characters have listed thresholds for light, moderate, severe etc wounds. Damage is compared to the highest threshold surpassed and the character gets a wound of that type.

I mean obviously this is going to be one where people's mileage will vary, but to me those are terrible examples. The only one that I would even consider is Neverwhere / The Window, although I don't know the system and would have to look at it to be sure.

Quote from: jadrax;678634I mean obviously this is going to be one where people's mileage will vary, but to me those are terrible examples. The only one that I would even consider is Neverwhere / The Window, although I don't know the system and would have to look at it to be sure.

Whether you'd enjoy using them is sort of incidental to the point though. I'm not advocating any of these as a replacement for HPs, merely observing none of these take more time to resolve than subtracting HPs from a pool.

Quote from: TristramEvans;678640Whether you'd enjoy using them is sort of incidental to the point though. I'm not advocating any of these as a replacement for HPs, merely observing none of these take more time to resolve than subtracting HPs from a pool.

Which is what I disagree with, as all of your examples *do* take more time.

Quote from: jadrax;678695Which is what I disagree with, as all of your examples *do* take more time.

Not in practice. And some obviously not - filling in a puzzle piece - 3 strokes of a pencil laid flat, a fraction of the amount of time it would even take to calculate the number of hit points to erase; many of the examples you simply check a box; taking a die out of a dice pool. At worste any of the given examples takes roughly the same amount of time. In most cases, less. What about the Saga system where you remove a card or two from your hand? There is simply plenty of systems less crunchy or equal in 'inconvenience' as HPs.

Doesn't mean any of them are better. But they exist.

Quote from: TristramEvans;678713Not in practice. And some obviously not - filling in a puzzle piece - 3 strokes of a pencil laid flat, a fraction of the amount of time it would even take to calculate the number of hit points to erase;

Wow, people actually do math when they take damage?  I just make hash marks.

Which would, er, be exactly the same number of pencil strokes.

Quote from: Mistwell;678028And understand I am no Pundit fanboi or anything.  I just think he's saying "water is wet", and I am having trouble understanding why you're disagreeing that water is wet.

There's a certain kind of Pundit-obsessed hater that will, if I declare "water is wet" say "no its dry you filthy liar!".

I mean, there was the one guy who spoke out loudly in support of pedophilia for no reason other than that I suggested I'm against its presence in the RPG hobby.

RPGPundit

Quote from: TristramEvans;678267Seems pretty straightforward to me...

We all know what HPs are trying to emulate; a hero's ability to last longer in a fight as their skill increases. Do HPs accomplish this? Yes. That's not a matter of personal preference. That's exactly what they do.

As to Pundit's second point, there are so many wound systems that the idea that one can make a generalized statement about them ("they are all clunkier than HPs") is meaningless and demonstrably false.

So I agree with Pundit on point 1, and think the 2nd claim is stupid.

In fact, I didn't state that all wound systems are clunkier than HPs; I claimed that "fidgety damage tracks" are clunkier than HPs.

Though in fact, most wound systems I've seen are "clunkier" than HPs.  Its hard not to be clunkier than "you have x points, you subtract from them when you get hit".

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;679149Though in fact, most wound systems I've seen are "clunkier" than HPs.  Its hard not to be clunkier than "you have x points, you subtract from them when you get hit".

Seriously.  Whatever failings HP may have, you can't count "fiddly and complex" among them.