Quote from: valency;676297Sure, and that's exactly why D&D Next has gone the same way with such generous recovery rules, to get away from the reliance on magical healers. D&D 1st-3rd edition really assumes the existence of a magical healer in the group. 4th-5th reduces that reliance, at the expense of reducing the utility of healers in general.

When 2e brought in Priests to replace clerics our players basically stopped playing healers. Much more interesting to play the priest of the Goddess of Luck or the God of Numbers or whatever, and whilst access to healing was always in the scope of all priests for game balance reasons it just didn't seem to fit.
Then we started a long campaign the Ruby Kingdom. There were two players I had a thief the other guy a Barbarian. The Two PCs had been around a while, I was 9th level the barbarian was 7th we had met in andother campaign in Ravenloft etc... anyway the game was very Swords and Sorcery and there was a constant issue with healing. The DM didn't want to litter the place with potions or give out daft magical wands, neither did he want to detract from the strong central 'buddy' dynamic by adding a priest whose only function would have been to keep us healed.
So after a couple of sessions I came up with a new HP paradigm. HPs would be an ablative pool of resources that would heal fast and underneath it there would be wounds. This also solved other issues we had with falling damage, with dagger to the throat or crossbow from 3 feet away etc.
We implemented it and then ran it for 20 years.

I mentioned this in another thread, I recently DM'd A0 using Next's rules and even though the HD mechanic helped, there was still a lot of risk of lethality.  So the healer isn't as needed, but it's still very valuable to have

Quote from: Sacrosanct;676304I mentioned this in another thread, I recently DM'd A0 using Next's rules and even though the HD mechanic helped, there was still a lot of risk of lethality.  So the healer isn't as needed, but it's still very valuable to have

Understood. I just want to see what it takes to get a TPK. In AD&D 1E it doesn't take that much at all, and most of it actually relies on the way the players choose to approach the challenge, whatever that is. So rather than a pure theoretical/mathematical rundown, which to be honest I couldn't care less about, what I want to see is whether say, a group of 4 kobolds could TPK a 1st level party at full strength, or a ghoul, or an ogre, for that matter.

This actually matters to me from a design standpoint: I care about people who want to run the Hobby Shop Dungeon with 4e, 3e, Torchbearer, whatever. I want to know how that alters the experience. Not that I will compromise with the original O/AD&D design - I will not, but it might help me to understand the effect this design will have under different paradigms, and provide advice accordingly.

Quote from: Benoist;676308Understood. I just want to see what it takes to get a TPK. In AD&D 1E it doesn't take that much at all, and most of it actually relies on the way the players choose to approach the challenge, whatever it is. So rather than a pure theoretical/mathematical rundown, which to be honest I couldn't care less about, what I want to see is whether say, a group of 4 kobolds could TPK a 1st level party, or a ghoul, or an ogre, for that matter.

This actually matters to me from a design standpoint: I care about people who want to run the Hobby Shop Dungeon with 4e, 3e, Torchbearer, whatever. I want to know how that alters the experience. Not that I will compromise with the original O/AD&D design - I will not, but it might help me to understand the effect this design will have under different paradigms, and provide advice accordingly.

I'm assuming you are excluding save or die.  In my experience in Next, an equal number of orcs can TPK a 1st level party pretty easily if the characters are unaware of things like the orc's relentless trait.  If played like they are designed, even goblins are very dangerous as they have an ambush trait which makes them deadly hit and run opponents.  Trogs?  Low level but deadly because they get two attacks per round and anyone in melee gets disadvantage on attack rolls due to stench.  We were five level 2 characters and 6 troglodytes would have tpk us if not for lucky rolls

Since when are Psionic attacks not causing Physical damage?  What do you think causes all those various type of permament brain damage, magical effects?

No one saw Scanners?

Quote from: Sacrosanct;676309I'm assuming you are excluding save or die.

Well no, I woudn't. Save or die in 1E AD&D does exist at low level via saves versus poison. So it does matter tactically in the sense that if you are approching a Spider in melee to begin with, you are dumb. It does matter. I'm guessing none of these kinds of punitive effects for abysmal tactics actually exist in Next... do they?

Quote from: Sacrosanct;676309In my experience in Next, an equal number of orcs can TPK a 1st level party pretty easily if the characters are unaware of things like the orc's relentless trait.  If played like they are designed, even goblins are very dangerous as they have an ambush trait which makes them deadly hit and run opponents.  Trogs?  Low level but deadly because they get two attacks per round and anyone in melee gets disadvantage on attack rolls due to stench.  We were five level 2 characters and 6 troglodytes would have tpk us if not for lucky rolls

OK. So that's not that much of a variation (though troglodytes are TOUGH for a first level party, as are Gnolls and the like).

it looks like poison in Next is HP damage rather than outright die.  Still most likely lethal for 1st level PC, but not nearly as deadly as AD&D.  Then again, not much is

For those curious, here are the two threads currently having an engaging debate on whether an extended rest should recover full hit points in D&D Next:

Wizards:
http://community.wizards.com/dndnext/go/thread/view/75882/30024081/Long_Rest_is_a_Problem

EnWorld:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?339804-Long-Rest-is-a-Problem

Hit points. The eternal debate. Here is a solution:


When I find myself in times of trouble
Brother Gary comes to me
Speaking words of wisdom, let them be
 
And in my hour of darkness
He is standing right in front of me
 
Speaking words of wisdom, let them be
 

Let them be, let them be
 
Let them be, let them be
 
Whisper words of wisdom
 
Let them be
 

And when the overthinking people
 
Living in the world agree
 
There will be an answer, let them be
 

For though they may be parted
 
There is still a chance that they will see
 
There will be an answer, let them be
 

Let them be, let them be
 
Let them be, let them be
 
Yeah, there will be an answer let them be
 

Let them be, let them be
 
 
Let them be, let them be
 
Whisper words of wisdom
 
Let them be
 

Let them be, let them be
 
Let them be, yeah, let them be
 
Whisper words of wisdom
 
Let them be
 

And when the rules are crappy
 
There is still some fun that comes to me
 
Play on until tomorrow, let them be
 

I wake up to the sound of die rolls
 
Brother Gary comes to me
 
Speaking words of wisdom, let them be
 

Yeah, let them be, let them be
 
Let them be, yeah, let them be
 
There will be an answer, let them be
 

Let them be, let them be
 
Let them be, yeah, let them be
 
Whisper words of wisdom
 
Let them be

Quote from: Mistwell;676463For those curious, here are the two threads currently having an engaging debate on whether an extended rest should recover full hit points in D&D Next:

Wizards:
http://community.wizards.com/dndnext/go/thread/view/75882/30024081/Long_Rest_is_a_Problem

EnWorld:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?339804-Long-Rest-is-a-Problem

I don't want to get sucked into more message boards, but we could debate this here.

Personally I lean toward recovering from being filled with 40 arrows takes at least a few weeks.

Unfortunately, as a player, I also don't want to spend weeks in bed recovering.

Catch 22

Quote from: Bill;676664I don't want to get sucked into more message boards, but we could debate this here.

Personally I lean toward recovering from being filled with 40 arrows takes at least a few weeks.

Unfortunately, as a player, I also don't want to spend weeks in bed recovering.

Catch 22

But you weren't hit by 40 arrows... you expended 80 hit points making sure you avoided 40 arrows sticking into you

In TSR D&D then it will take you 31 days to recover. In 3e 80/level days
In 4e a few hours

In Next .... I thought you could set the 'heal' clock to be Level HPs per where time could vary from 10 mins upto a day or has that been cut now?

In my D&D you really have avoiced all those arrows but if the last one hit you when you had no hp left you are wounded and each wound takes a week to heal and gives you -2 on all rolls or you might be dead of course.

This entire thread reminds me why WFRP 1st Edition and especially RuneQuest are my go to games; there, there is no debate on hitpoints/wounds be anything other than physical markers.

Quote from: Bill;676664I don't want to get sucked into more message boards, but we could debate this here.

Personally I lean toward recovering from being filled with 40 arrows takes at least a few weeks.

Unfortunately, as a player, I also don't want to spend weeks in bed recovering.

Catch 22

This is something that used to bother me more, depending on the DM (and system). Lately, running ACKS, downtime to heal seems like a much more natural part of the game, and there are always plenty of interesting things for the party to get up to while that's happpening. It only takes a few minutes narration and perhaps a dice roll or two, but it serves to tie the characters into the milieu.

Quote from: jibbajibba;676666But you weren't hit by 40 arrows... you expended 80 hit points making sure you avoided 40 arrows sticking into you

In TSR D&D then it will take you 31 days to recover. In 3e 80/level days
In 4e a few hours

In Next .... I thought you could set the 'heal' clock to be Level HPs per where time could vary from 10 mins upto a day or has that been cut now?

In my D&D you really have avoiced all those arrows but if the last one hit you when you had no hp left you are wounded and each wound takes a week to heal and gives you -2 on all rolls or you might be dead of course.

Sometimes I want my character to actually get wounded.

A few arrow wounds is realistic, and would take more than 31 days to recover from.

A level 2 fighter with 8 hp would be fine in a week.

Mechanically it works not aesthetically.

Recovery times always being quick feels wrong to me.

Quote from: Bobloblah;676676This is something that used to bother me more, depending on the DM (and system). Lately, running ACKS, downtime to heal seems like a much more natural part of the game, and there are always plenty of interesting things for the party to get up to while that's happpening. It only takes a few minutes narration and perhaps a dice roll or two, but it serves to tie the characters into the milieu.

Downtime can be fun, but  your knight spending a month recovering while a Dragon savages the land is stressful