https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/23/hasbro-ceo-dungeons--dragons-is-having-its-best-year-ever.html
He added that Hasbro's goal over time will be to build fantasy games like "Dungeons & Dragons" into esports properties "ripe for esports competition" as consumers increasingly choose digital gaming over standard board games.
LOL just what D&D needs.
Quote from: tenbones;1050279https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/23/hasbro-ceo-dungeons--dragons-is-having-its-best-year-ever.html
He added that Hasbro's goal over time will be to build fantasy games like "Dungeons & Dragons" into esports properties "ripe for esports competition" as consumers increasingly choose digital gaming over standard board games.
LOL just what D&D needs.
Yeah, I was pretty disturbed to hear the bolded part, but while it's an accurate quote from the article it's not a quote from the interview and isn't exactly accurate about what Goldner was saying.
Ugh. So Alex Gygax was right. :p
By "choose digital gaming over standard board games," I doubt the author meant that in practice the majority of digital games recreate standard board games exactly because that is cheap and easy to do over thinking up a new game. Solitaire and Chess is a dime a dozen on the App Store and Tabletop Simulator is a real program that does exactly what it sounds like.
I have no idea how the heck Hasbro would turn D&D into an esports property. Does that mean they would make a video game modeled after the D&D rules? How closely would the digital rules follow the tabletop rules? How would they account for GM creativity? If anything, esports would be good for the brand since the developers would be forced to write balanced rules that make sense because otherwise the competitive scene would fall apart when casters dominate and martials are bland and boring.
Quote from: happyhermit;1050281Yeah, I was pretty disturbed to hear the bolded part, but while it's an accurate quote from the article it's not a quote from the interview and isn't exactly accurate about what Goldner was saying.
I hope not. While it wouldn't impact me, it would be wince-worthy to see WOTC shovel money into a furnace in pursuit of turning D&D into an "esport".
This is more confusing than it is surprising.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1050296I hope not. While it wouldn't impact me, it would be wince-worthy to see WOTC shovel money into a furnace in pursuit of turning D&D into an "esport".
Is an esport an electronic competitive sport? Or a port to an electronic platform? :confused:
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1050294I have no idea how the heck Hasbro would turn D&D into an esports property. Does that mean they would make a video game modeled after the D&D rules? How closely would the digital rules follow the tabletop rules? How would they account for GM creativity? If anything, esports would be good for the brand since the developers would be forced to write balanced rules that make sense because otherwise the competitive scene would fall apart when casters dominate and martials are bland and boring.
Neverwinter is modeled after D&D 4E, and Dungeons & Dragons Online is modeled after 3.5E, so it's been done before. I don't know about Dungeons & Dragons Online, but I'm told Neverwinter follows the 4E rules set pretty closely. Of course, there is no GM creativity since the computer or video game console is the GM.
Quote from: S'mon;1050299Is an esport an electronic competitive sport? Or a port to an electronic platform? :confused:
An esport is playing a video game competitively. Look at League of Legends or DOTA 2 or Overwatch or StarCraft 2 "sports leagues." There's all kinds of streams of people playing video games competitively on Twitch and YouTube Games.
Kind of off topic but show of hands....
Who here thinks Mr. Goldner has ever played a game of Dungeons and Dragons? Or Magic? He was told that the fans are going to be ecstatic about this in-house cross over book by exactly which flunky?
I'm not saying it can't be good. I'm just saying get the PR department to send out one of the hipsters to do these interviews so it doesn't look like the stuffed suit shilling the latest thing he has never even seen.
These are the times I miss Gygax the most, he knew his product.
Also...at the moment Hasbro stocks down 4.7% Way to go bro..... way to anger the spirit of The Man with your esports talk....
"I didn't leave D&D, D&D left me."
Quote from: MonsterSlayer;1050303He was told that the fans are going to be ecstatic about this in-house cross over book by exactly which flunky?
Ever since Wizards aquired D&D there have been people asking for D&D in M:tG settings. I used to work in their retail stores and I got asked when it was going to happen often enough. It might not have been aassive mandate from the fans depending on area, but it isn't just some flunky pushing baseless claims.
Quote from: jeff37923;1050314"I didn't leave D&D, D&D left me."
How funny. I was just asked about the article in a meeting (from a normy) and I said almost the same thing.
No worries from me. D&D stopped being D&D to me years ago. I got plenty to game with.
Quote from: Manic Modron;1050315Ever since Wizards aquired D&D there have been people asking for D&D in M:tG settings. I used to work in their retail stores and I got asked when it was going to happen often enough. It might not have been aassive mandate from the fans depending on area, but it isn't just some flunky pushing baseless claims.
I never said they were "baseless claims". I never said "nobody" is asking for this. In fact I did say: "I'm not saying it can't be good." Please re-read.
This might be a great campaign. It is not my cup of tea because of the "planet is one whole city" thing. The single environment planets of the Star Wars movies and such annoy me.
I'm saying the Hasbro top execs based on this video are not getting this feedback between rounds of golf like you did in the store. I also did not get the feeling the guy knew what an esports league was or how D&D would look in that format. He was handed this info in an earnings meeting/ report and I think kind of mangled it in the video by confusing D&D and MtG too much.
ohhh and Hasbro stock down 5% now.... quit angering Him.
I'm saying that too.
*Shrug* D&D and I have often had a tenuous relationship--seriously, there were long stretches where Ravenloft support was pretty much the only thing keeping me connected to the game. And WotC doesn't want me and my ilk associated with the game. ;)
A strong D&D is probably good for the broader hobby, a strong WotC may be less so ;), but beyond that ...
Quote from: MonsterSlayer;1050319I never said they were "baseless claims". I never said "nobody" is asking for this. In fact I did say: "I'm not saying it can't be good." Please re-read.
I'm sorry, I assumed that you might think my tone was conversational instead of accusatory.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1050294I have no idea how the heck Hasbro would turn D&D into an esports property. Does that mean they would make a video game modeled after the D&D rules? How closely would the digital rules follow the tabletop rules? How would they account for GM creativity? If anything, esports would be good for the brand since the developers would be forced to write balanced rules that make sense because otherwise the competitive scene would fall apart when casters dominate and martials are bland and boring.
For this the old gamer foggies had it figured out. Pick and read the original C1 Tamoachan, G2 Ghost Tower of Inverness, Or judges guild Gen Con IX dungeon or of Skull and Scrapfaggot Green. All used as tournament modules back in the day with scoring.
Basically think puzzle rooms with a bunch of combat encounters to be overcome.
However after reading the article, I don't think that what the CEO was getting at. It looks like to be more of a brand thing using the IP of Forgotten Realms and other D&D related IP to make a game that plays well as an esport.
Ultimately it will be more fuel for the Pundit's rants about who and who is not a RPG gamer.
Quote from: MonsterSlayer;1050319ohhh and Hasbro stock down 5% now.... quit angering Him.
It's down almost 5% today - but it's still way up 7-8% for the week thus far. And frankly - after a stock jacks way up it almost always bounces back down a bit the next day. (Because the bounce up is generally exaggerated by over-exuberant investors and then sold off by profit-takers who have been looking for a good time to get out - then that's exaggerated by chicken littles.)
Quote from: estar;1050324However after reading the article, I don't think that what the CEO was getting at. It looks like to be more of a brand thing using the IP of Forgotten Realms and other D&D related IP to make a game that plays well as an esport.
This.
Quote from: estar;1050324Ultimately it will be more fuel for the Pundit's rants about who and who is not a RPG gamer.
And definitely this, how long do I have to stalk this thread? My pop corn is getting cold and my 48 oz. Coke is going flat.
Could you imagine the stage with all of the lights and screens with celebrities sitting around tapping on keyboards to roll dice? All of the celebrity cash and prizes are donated to far left "tolerance" organizations of their choice.
Celebrity ELeague D&D brought to you by Cheetos tonight at 11 on SyFy.....
And then Pundit storms the set spitting vitriol at all of the posers......
A man can dream...
And the stock is now down only 4.93%, I bet the guy in the video is demanding to know, "who the Hell Mike Mearls is" and why he just cost Hasbro tens of millions of dollars on this D&D and MtG cross over announcement.
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1050325It's down almost 5% today - but it's still way up 7-8% for the week thus far. And frankly - after a stock jacks way up it almost always bounces back down a bit the next day. (Because the bounce up is generally exaggerated by over-exuberant investors and then sold off by profit-takers who have been looking for a good time to get out - then that's exaggerated by chicken littles.)
Just heads up... I have never before followed Hasbro stock, so I do not claim to be a stock adviser. I know they could build a factory on all of the G.I. Joes, My Little Ponies, etc bought through my life, my wife's and my kids.
Some of my posts today may be fueled by utter boredom in current location.
Quote from: Manic Modron;1050315Ever since Wizards aquired D&D there have been people asking for D&D in M:tG settings. I used to work in their retail stores and I got asked when it was going to happen often enough. It might not have been aassive mandate from the fans depending on area, but it isn't just some flunky pushing baseless claims.
This literally came up in Sunday's game. They own both IP, so a solid crossover makes a world (heh) of sense.
I still regularly play D&D and I'm a former MtG player. From a business standpoint, it has never made any sense to me that they refused to leverage more out of both IPs. Heck, DMs are suckers for buying monster books. They could have put out "Demons of Phyrexia" or "Threats from Tarkir" every couple of years for D&D and still made some money without approaching full setting books. And a Dark Sun set might have pulled me back into MtG.
Quote from: estar;1050324However after reading the article, I don't think that what the CEO was getting at. It looks like to be more of a brand thing using the IP of Forgotten Realms and other D&D related IP to make a game that plays well as an esport.
Ultimately it will be more fuel for the Pundit's rants about who and who is not a RPG gamer.
D&D Blood and Steel for the Playstation. It is essentially D&D turned into a Street Fighter type combat game.
But more likely what they mean is an arena fighter type combat game like Overwatch and all the others recently out. Or the crash-n-burn attempt to do that to Shadowrun.
I was fired by D&D so I don't give two hoots about them anymore. I'm just waiting for the bubble to pop and for Fat Mearls to get his head chopped off by his allies.
Quote from: MonsterSlayer;1050330Just heads up... I have never before followed Hasbro stock,
me neither - I just looked back at the last month
Quote from: MonsterSlayer;1050330so I do not claim to be a stock adviser.
Ah - technically me neither - but I worked in the industry. Actually - most stock advisers are terrible and are just glorified salesmen. (Not that the products they're pushing aren't generally decent investments and FAR better than a bank account or putting it in your mattress - many of them just don't care.) My job was to keep them in line and from doing anything too shady.
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1050351me neither - I just looked back at the last month
Ah - technically me neither - but I worked in the industry. Actually - most stock advisers are terrible and are just glorified salesmen. (Not that the products they're pushing aren't generally decent investments and FAR better than a bank account or putting it in your mattress - many of them just don't care.) My job was to keep them in line and from doing anything too shady.
Turns out that today's stock down turn is due to an anticipated purchase of Dreamworks Animation by Hasbro. I guess Mike Mearls putting MtG peanut butter in my D&D chocolate was not the blip in the $7.2 Billion dollar business I thought he was.
Sitting on top of $7.2 Billion dollars, CEO Brian Goldner probably couldn't pick Mike Mearls out of a line up of Hasbro janitors.
Carry on...
Quote from: MonsterSlayer;1050354Turns out that today's stock down turn is due to an anticipated purchase of Dreamworks Animation by Hasbro.
That makes sense. A company's stock virtually always goes down when it looks like they'll buy another company on the assumption that they'll overpay for it.
I see where they're going to go with this.
They're going to copy Blizzard's success with converting timed dungeon runs into a spectator event. ("Mythic Dungeon Invitational") Competitive dungeon running. Your team races another team through seperate instances of the same exact dungeon. Best time wins. Best of 3 early on, Best of 5 at the climax. Change things up by introducing and changing one of a set of modifiers ("Affixes" for WOW's take.) and loser picks the dungeon for the second and subsequent games in a series.
If you think I'm out of my mind, consider this: MDI has consistent quarterly live viewership between 10K and 20K viewers on Twitch. Views on YouTube, Mixer, etc. are not included. There is live color commentary and between-match host segments, featuring top players in the game's online community. Participation in Mythic Plus in WOW went up once the MDI began, as it demystified the entire feature for most players- and so made it familiar and easy to do.
D&D's chasing the trend here, and to its eventual detriment. This course should be abandoned immediately.
Quote from: Manic Modron;1050315Ever since Wizards aquired D&D there have been people asking for D&D in M:tG settings.
Quote from: Doom;1050332This literally came up in Sunday's game. They own both IP, so a solid crossover makes a world (heh) of sense.
This isn't going to happen because it dilutes both brands and makes them more difficult to sell independently.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1050365This isn't going to happen because it dilutes both brands and makes them more difficult to sell independently.
Hate to mercilessly burst your bubble... But WOTC has released several MTG to D&D setting booklets in PDF format now. The first, Innistrad, came out in 2016. See the other thread for that. Latest two were Amonkhet and Ixalan. And another may be on its way in hardback print if the amazon listing is not a mistake or hoax.
Quote from: Omega;1050367WOTC has released several MTG to D&D setting booklets in PDF format now.
I know.
Quote from: Omega;1050367And another may be on its way in hardback print if the amazon listing is not a mistake or hoax.
This will be the point they cross the rubicon however.
The stock was up over 10% on the earning news. Now you are seeing profit taking.He also did not say that D&D would be an esport, he mentioned Twitch for D&D and esport for Magic linked to Arena. That has not stopped a bunch of articles and discussion. This is all from a Cramer Mad Money segment where you have little to no time you basically spout marketing talking points and hope Cramer does not ask you a too tough question. I have done a few live interviews on CNBC, it can be rough.
Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1050373The stock was up over 10% on the earning news. Now you are seeing profit taking.He also did not say that D&D would be an esport, he mentioned Twitch for D&D and esport for Magic linked to Arena.
That's good.
QuoteThat has not stopped a bunch of articles and discussion.
At this point, I assume 99% of what we hear on the interbutz is garbled information.
What
would be interesting is if WOTC got into the streaming business and created a channel for showing groups playing modules, with commentary and animations and crap. Say, they show a group playing through Tomb of Horrors, and have a couple of grognards talking about their experiences, that kinda stuff.
Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;1050364I see where they're going to go with this.
They're going to copy Blizzard's success with converting timed dungeon runs into a spectator event. ("Mythic Dungeon Invitational") Competitive dungeon running. Your team races another team through seperate instances of the same exact dungeon. Best time wins. Best of 3 early on, Best of 5 at the climax. Change things up by introducing and changing one of a set of modifiers ("Affixes" for WOW's take.) and loser picks the dungeon for the second and subsequent games in a series.
If you think I'm out of my mind, consider this: MDI has consistent quarterly live viewership between 10K and 20K viewers on Twitch. Views on YouTube, Mixer, etc. are not included. There is live color commentary and between-match host segments, featuring top players in the game's online community. Participation in Mythic Plus in WOW went up once the MDI began, as it demystified the entire feature for most players- and so made it familiar and easy to do.
D&D's chasing the trend here, and to its eventual detriment. This course should be abandoned immediately.
I think this is spot on. I'd add there might be some improvisational element for "scoring" but yeah - I think you're definitely on the right track.
Of course, this could just be the CEO being a jackass and not really understanding D&D isn't a computer game...
I very strongly suspect this is nothing at all.
He meant MtG Arena for the competitive esports, and was lumping revenue from people watching games on Twitch with that statement. Pretty sure that's all he meant. Not competitive D&D play, just Hasbro competing for eyeballs on watching games being played, which is an element of esports. From a revenue standpoint, whether people are competing in the game or not is irrelevant - it's people watching games being played that's the crucial element for esports revenue. Which is how you'd want to explain it to a business audience who likely knows nothing about D&D other than it's a game.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1050381What would be interesting is if WOTC got into the streaming business and created a channel for showing groups playing modules, with commentary and animations and crap. Say, they show a group playing through Tomb of Horrors, and have a couple of grognards talking about their experiences, that kinda stuff.
So basically WoTC putting forward their own in-house version of Critical Role? Maybe - but I wouldn't were I them. Any off-the-cuff ruling would be made "official" by many watchers, and if it wasn't good it would reflect badly on WoTC, while currently the many terrible D&D streams don't hurt them. (I don't watch Critical Role either - but it certainly benefits them.)
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1050411So basically WoTC putting forward their own in-house version of Critical Role? Maybe - but I wouldn't were I them. Any off-the-cuff ruling would be made "official" by many watchers, and if it wasn't good it would reflect badly on WoTC, while currently the many terrible D&D streams don't hurt them. (I don't watch Critical Role either - but it certainly benefits them.)
They already do this. Mearls even DMs sometimes, like he did for Stream of Many Eyes last month. He makes off the cuff rulings all the time and nothing bad has ever happened. Chris Perkins is DMing Dice Camera Action on a regular basis. There are 102 episodes (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfS8QgUdeGYo8F3RPUQ2Wsi2mZLPcaU6X). They've even done crossovers with Acquisition Inc.. Which is ALSO DMed by Chris Perkins.
Apparently those quotes were taken out of context, and the article has been updated.
QuoteA spokesperson for Hasbro later clarified that while the strategy for building digital gaming capabilities for "Dungeons & Dragons" remains intact, the game has not yet been classified by the company as an esport because of its limited competitive scope.
And it does look like Hasbro is committed to crossing the streams when it comes to D&D and MTG.
Interesting. I wonder what made them change their mind at this point.
Quote from: Mistwell;1050413They already do this. Mearls even DMs sometimes, like he did for Stream of Many Eyes last month. He makes off the cuff rulings all the time and nothing bad has ever happened. Chris Perkins is DMing Dice Camera Action on a regular basis. There are 102 episodes (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfS8QgUdeGYo8F3RPUQ2Wsi2mZLPcaU6X). They've even done crossovers with Acquisition Inc.. Which is ALSO DMed by Chris Perkins.
Fair 'nuff. Shows just how closely I watch the gaming streams.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1050294I have no idea how the heck Hasbro would turn D&D into an esports property.
The same way TSR turned D&D into a competitive tournament game.
Well, they tried to...
Quote from: Omega;1050367Hate to mercilessly burst your bubble... But WOTC has released several MTG to D&D setting booklets in PDF format now. The first, Innistrad, came out in 2016. See the other thread for that. Latest two were Amonkhet and Ixalan. And another may be on its way in hardback print if the amazon listing is not a mistake or hoax.
And Zendikar, too.
Here's the thing though, the Planeshift PDF's are really nothing more than advertisements for their art books. Which, if you bought the Zendikar one, like I did, the Planeshift document makes more sense. It's pretty clever.
There is a competitive version of D&D called Conflict. I contributed to the first edition and got to participate in play tests. It was quite fun. So there is a rules system in place WOTC could partner with if they needed. I imagine competitive play would only be entertaining to watch though if they set up the presentation well and had naturally entertaining people playing.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1050419The same way TSR turned D&D into a competitive tournament game.
Well, they tried to...
The Fans of OD&D used to create a competitive tournament game not TSR. They just jumped on the bandwagon slightly later on.
See the Gen Con IX dungeon and the Gen Con X dungeon, Of Skulls and Scrapfaggot Green both published by Judges Guild.
Correction Origins I had Tomb of Horrors run by Gygax and Gen Con VIII a Kalibruhn dungeon written by Rob Kuntz. However from what I understand the Gen Con IX is the first to have competitive scoring.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1050415Apparently those quotes were taken out of context, and the article has been updated.
And it does look like Hasbro is committed to crossing the streams when it comes to D&D and MTG.
Interesting. I wonder what made them change their mind at this point.
Probably the revenues and profits got good enough for D&D to pop up on Hasbro's radar. This does seem like higher management is starting to notice a "smaller" brand line.
A competitive D&D computer game where the teams are rival bands of tomb-robbers -- all going into the same dungeon complex through different entrances -- could actually be really awesome if the devs used an old-school megadungeon mentality. The objective isn't to "beat" the dungeon, but to get in and out alive in a certain amount of time, and each team's performance is evaluated to determine the winner. Evaluation would largely be based on treasure gained, but also take into account monsters slain, traps overcome, party members lost, etc. This would encourage creative strategies and tactics that don't all boil down to combat, and also risk-vs-reward strategies (as in old-school megadungeon play) about when to head down to the deeper levels. It would be even more interesting if you could interact with dungeon denizens in non-combat ways -- maybe even bribe or convince the goblins to go attack the other teams. Finally, there's also the possibility for the parties to encounter one another in the dungeon, lay traps for one another, and so on. I'm not going to hold my breath, but if a game like that was created, I'd most likely tune in and watch (if I couldn't play myself!)
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1050421And Zendikar, too.
Here's the thing though, the Planeshift PDF's are really nothing more than advertisements for their art books. Which, if you bought the Zendikar one, like I did, the Planeshift document makes more sense. It's pretty clever.
Oh? There are artbooks associated with these Plane Shift PDFs?
A spokesperson for Hasbro later clarified (https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/23/hasbro-ceo-dungeons--dragons-is-having-its-best-year-ever.html) that while the strategy for building digital gaming capabilities for "Dungeons & Dragons" remains intact, the game has not yet been classified by the company as an esport because of its limited competitive scope.
Quote from: Mistwell;1050499A spokesperson for Hasbro later clarified (https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/23/hasbro-ceo-dungeons--dragons-is-having-its-best-year-ever.html) that while the strategy for building digital gaming capabilities for "Dungeons & Dragons" remains intact, the game has not yet been classified by the company as an esport because of its limited competitive scope.
I'l sleep better tonight. Nightmares of stadiums full of fans yelling for their favorite color of dungeon crawlers; running to the stage thru pyro and blaring "WE Will Rock You" have haunted my sleep for days.
Quote from: MonsterSlayer;1050513I'l sleep better tonight. Nightmares of stadiums full of fans yelling for their favorite color of dungeon crawlers; running to the stage thru pyro and blaring "WE Will Rock You" have haunted my sleep for days.
See - now I actually kind of want that.
I addressed the e-sport nonsense here:
[video=youtube_share;dgBguvpHXgU]https://youtu.be/dgBguvpHXgU[/youtube]
Quote from: MonsterSlayer;1050513I'l sleep better tonight. Nightmares of stadiums full of fans yelling for their favorite color of dungeon crawlers; running to the stage thru pyro and blaring "WE Will Rock You" have haunted my sleep for days.
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1050518See - now I actually kind of want that.
I'm pretty sure there was a manga like that, but I can't remember the title. You can ask on a manga forum, if you care, which I kinda doubt;).
I remember this being a pretty cool book but I was 15 when it came out and my taste was (is?) pretty trash:
https://www.amazon.com/Caverns-Socrates-Dennis-L-McKiernan/dp/0451454766 (https://www.amazon.com/Caverns-Socrates-Dennis-L-McKiernan/dp/0451454766)
I don't necessarily hate the idea of taking the tournament module format and making it an esport but they'd have to alter the current esport format to make it more interesting. It'd actually be pretty sweet if the audience could participate as the monsters during combat to add a pvp/audience participation aspect to it.
Why e-sports? Why not just sports! WE DEMAND XCRAWL!!!
Quote from: David Johansen;1050787Why e-sports? Why not just sports! WE DEMAND XCRAWL!!!
D&D-inspired Ninja Warrrior (the hilarious originals where the commentators mercilessly mocked the foolish and obviously
doomed participants in rapid-fire fashion, not the lame "American" version where we learn 'touching' stories about a carefully selected pool of cross-fit toolbags).
Quote from: Omega;1050483Oh? There are artbooks associated with these Plane Shift PDFs?
Oh yes. Here a link to the art book https://www.amazon.ca/Art-Magic-Gathering-Zendikar/dp/142158249X (https://www.amazon.ca/Art-Magic-Gathering-Zendikar/dp/142158249X)
I always believe financial anecdotes from CEOs. It's like when politicians quote polls!
Quote from: Spinachcat;1050808I always believe financial anecdotes from CEOs. It's like when politicians quote polls!
You have won the interwebs for this quarter.
The question is how much of this profit is being generated by D&D The Game, and how much is being generated by D&D The Lifestyle Brand that has fuck all to do with gaming.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1054973The question is how much of this profit is being generated by D&D The Game, and how much is being generated by D&D The Lifestyle Brand that has fuck all to do with gaming.
I'm pretty sure that like Games Workshop the D&D brand at WotC is more about the IP licensing than the game itself. I'd be shocked if the video games didn't make more than the TTRPG.
Quote from: KingCheops;1054989I'm pretty sure that like Games Workshop the D&D brand at WotC is more about the IP licensing than the game itself. I'd be shocked if the video games didn't make more than the TTRPG.
I expect that Marvel movies make a lot more money than Marvel comic books. Would not making those movies help the comic books? It's more annoying to me that RPG means computer games to most people and we have to say TTRPG.
Well, I'm not talking about movies. I'm talking about T-Shirts and coffee table books about Youtube shows.
Quote from: rawma;1055030... It's more annoying to me that RPG means computer games to most people and we have to say TTRPG.
A cool thing though (IMO) is that at least in North America in the last couple years "D&D" and "DnD" have become more searched for terms than "Rpg".
https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=D%26D,dungeons%20and%20dragons,dnd,rpg (https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=D%26D,dungeons%20and%20dragons,dnd,rpg)
Quote from: RPGPundit;1055108Well, I'm not talking about movies. I'm talking about T-Shirts and coffee table books about Youtube shows.
So far theres been oddly little of it. D&D Kree-O, Hasbros knock off Lego bombed. The MMO is just kinda... there. There hasnt been a signifigant D&D PC or console game in a while far as I can tell.
The board games are doing well though and the latest Tomb of Annihilation had a board game adaption for the ongoing series from that that started some years ago. And a PC adaption of the board game on Steam.
Novels I am not sure on though? How well are those doing?
And D&D is apparently doing well enough the books are in at least their 9th print run as the discussion came up lately about the changes between print runs.
MMO seems to be doing well since they keep releasing new content for it eg Tomb of Annihilation, Barovia.
Thats what one of my players said. But they eventually dropped off playing it as it just didnt work as D&D for them. My comp is not yet up to running it but hopefully will be getting an upgrade soon.
Quote from: rawma;1055030I expect that Marvel movies make a lot more money than Marvel comic books. Would not making those movies help the comic books?
The entire comic book industry is around $1 billion of revenue. The Marvel movies, however, aren't really helping as marvel comics sales stalled around 2014 and have been dropping in sales over the last two years. Now, Marvel Comics is trying to rebrand itself as a "lifestyle brand" and even produces cooking shows.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKWPfouH9vc
Recently, IDW, which started as a comic company, fired their founder/CEO and replaced him with a man whose experience was entirely in TV show production.
It seems to me like Pundits fear that RPGers will soon be pushed aside by Hasbro isn't entirely a crazy conspiracy theory.
Quote from: hedgehobbit;1055639It seems to me like Pundits fear that RPGers will soon be pushed aside by Hasbro isn't entirely a crazy conspiracy theory.
In the case of Marvel and comics, the comics income stream has been supplanted, by a lot, by other properties. When it comes to the D&D brand, what has equaled or surpassed the income generated by the RPG line?
Quote from: Ras Algethi;1055645In the case of Marvel and comics, the comics income stream has been supplanted, by a lot, by other properties. When it comes to the D&D brand, what has equaled or surpassed the income generated by the RPG line?
The novels did in the 90s, I believe.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1055651The novels did in the 90s, I believe.
And that's just the modules, let alone the paperbacks.
Quote from: EOTB;1055652And that's just the modules, let alone the paperbacks.
(http://www.steelcitylug.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/I-see-what-you-did-there-Fry-600x133.jpg)
Quote from: EOTB;1055652And that's just the modules, let alone the paperbacks.
Huh?
Quote from: Ras Algethi;1055645In the case of Marvel and comics, the comics income stream has been supplanted, by a lot, by other properties. When it comes to the D&D brand, what has equaled or surpassed the income generated by the RPG line?
The video games. Neverwinter, mainly. From what I understand, that game makes bank from its selling crates on PC, XBox One, and PlayStation 4.
D&D novels haven't been any sort of massive revenue stream for a long time, which is probably why Wotc slowed/stopped publishing them and was looking for a better way to do it. Salvatore's novels sell well, Greenwood's sell ok, other authors were way down the list in terms of sales.
None of them are selling anywhere near what a 5e book does, and those are all $Hardbacks which they also release in multiple digital formats (D&D beyond, FG, etc.) for additional revenue.
Quote from: happyhermit;1055662D&D novels haven't been any sort of massive revenue stream for a long time, which is probably why Wotc slowed/stopped publishing them and was looking for a better way to do it. Salvatore's novels sell well, Greenwood's sell ok, other authors were way down the list in terms of sales.
.
Oh, sure; the novels' day is long past, a pattern that extends beyond D&D to other franchises.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1055663Oh, sure; the novels' day is long past, a pattern that extends beyond D&D to other franchises.
Print book sales continue to increase; https://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/by-topic/industry-news/bookselling/article/75760-print-sales-up-again-in-2017.html (https://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/by-topic/industry-news/bookselling/article/75760-print-sales-up-again-in-2017.html) A few types of books have dropped, but not by much.
The crazy thing is, if you look at the top selling "Science fiction and Fantasy" books on Amazon, the top of the list is dominated by 5e D&D hardcovers.
Quote from: happyhermit;1055670The crazy thing is, if you look at the top selling "Science fiction and Fantasy" books on Amazon, the top of the list is dominated by 5e D&D hardcovers.
Funny, they don't show up in the UK top 100 (& #99 is a reverse harem romance) :D https://smile.amazon.co.uk/Best-Sellers-Books-Science-Fiction-Fantasy/zgbs/books/4034595031/ref=zg_bs_pg_1?_encoding=UTF8&pg=1 - I'm guessing they're not in the category at all. The D&D PHB is #233 in All Books and #1 in Hobbies & Games - https://smile.amazon.co.uk/gp/bestsellers/books/270508/ref=pd_zg_hrsr_books_1_4_last - #96 is the 4e DMG2!
Quote from: S'mon;1055675Funny, they don't show up in the UK top 100 (& #99 is a reverse harem romance) :D https://smile.amazon.co.uk/Best-Sellers-Books-Science-Fiction-Fantasy/zgbs/books/4034595031/ref=zg_bs_pg_1?_encoding=UTF8&pg=1 - I'm guessing they're not in the category at all. The D&D PHB is #233 in All Books and #1 in Hobbies & Games - https://smile.amazon.co.uk/gp/bestsellers/books/270508/ref=pd_zg_hrsr_books_1_4_last - #96 is the 4e DMG2!
Yeah, it can vary by country, I don't know all that much about the UK book market but there could be many reasons. In Canada, D&D books are almost always ranked higher than in the US. Ie; right now PHB among all books in the UK= #234, US= #45, CA= #8!
Honestly though, if the PHB had only averaged in the mid 200's in the US for several years that would have been a success for a D&D edition IMO, 4e did not do so well and 99% of books don't. Instead it's averaged in the top 50 (and averaged in the top10 books in Canada which is interesting to me but not overly consequential to D&D)
Quote from: Apparition;1055661The video games. Neverwinter, mainly. From what I understand, that game makes bank from its selling crates on PC, XBox One, and PlayStation 4.
That's great, for Perfect World, who is publishing and running the game. Although, according to this Forbes article (https://www.forbes.com/companies/perfect-world/), they are pulling in a net income of $176 million dollars. That's for all their games.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1055663Oh, sure; the novels' day is long past, a pattern that extends beyond D&D to other franchises.
Although it seems that Warhammer novels take up an impressive amount of shelf space in my local Barnes & Noble.
Anyway, didn't TSR somehow manage to lose money on the novels even when they sold well? I seem to recall reading that somewhere.
Quote from: Dimitrios;1055720Although it seems that Warhammer novels take up an impressive amount of shelf space in my local Barnes & Noble.
Anyway, didn't TSR somehow manage to lose money on the novels even when they sold well? I seem to recall reading that somewhere.
I was thinking Star Trek and Star Wars, both of which have cut down substantially on the novels since the heyday of the 90s/early 00s. Still present, mind, just not as many. All things change ...
They got hit hard by overextending on the hardcovers (from one in a year, to two, to about half a dozen), but they weren't losing money per copy, as some think happened on the higher-produced supplements.
It's a sad fact that the primary market for those books (D&D, Star Wars, etc) were young men, and readership in that demographic is falling off a cliff. Blame videogames. Or the fact YA and teen novels are aimed overwhelming at girls. But reading fiction is rapidly becoming a gendered activity.
Quote from: Dimitrios;1055720Anyway, didn't TSR somehow manage to lose money on the novels even when they sold well? I seem to recall reading that somewhere.
Yes and no. What was happening to TSR was something that had been going on for a long time. Retailers "returning" the book for a refund.
What they really did was return the COVER and then sold the coverless book. This was happening to comics to for quite a while. Since at least the 70s.
Quote from: Omega;1055762Yes and no. What was happening to TSR was something that had been going on for a long time. Retailers "returning" the book for a refund.
What they really did was return the COVER and then sold the coverless book. This was happening to comics to for quite a while. Since at least the 70s.
I'd heard a lot about that, but as an active genre fiction reader in the US during the 80s and 90s I saw very, very few "stripped" books for sale or in peoples' collections. Do we have a quantitative measure? A few minutes of googling didn't turn up any data.
Quote from: Naburimannu;1055809I'd heard a lot about that, but as an active genre fiction reader in the US during the 80s and 90s I saw very, very few "stripped" books for sale or in peoples' collections. Do we have a quantitative measure? A few minutes of googling didn't turn up any data.
Yeah, I'm skeptical too. I used to work in a used book store, and we never sold coverless books. Pretty sure it's illegal.
Quote from: Haffrung;1055832Yeah, I'm skeptical too. I used to work in a used book store, and we never sold coverless books. Pretty sure it's illegal.
It is illegal, and stupid since many people used to buy books for the cover art.
Ive never seen any numbers but I have seen it in action. But at the time did not know the reason for it. Used to be in drug stores youd see these packs of comics for sale cheap. and theyd all be missing the covers except maybe one. If that. And I used to see coverless books fairly often. TSR staff mentioned the return problem which was the first I'd heard of it.
Seems stupid to me. But obviously someone thought it was a profitable scam to run.
Seems like it died out by the 90s. Least I stopped seeing any after that. Who knows. It was apparently a big enough problem they started putting alerts in books not to buy if it was missing the cover.
Quote from: happyhermit;1055113A cool thing though (IMO) is that at least in North America in the last couple years "D&D" and "DnD" have become more searched for terms than "Rpg".
https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=D%26D,dungeons%20and%20dragons,dnd,rpg (https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=D%26D,dungeons%20and%20dragons,dnd,rpg)
Because of hashtags, #DnD has become shorthand for "RPGs in general", though it's true that most of that is talking about D&D, since D&D is by far the most played RPG.
Not sure if I'm in the right thread here, and my apologies to you all if I'm not, BUT I've rediscovered my love for RPGs (I started playing in the late 70s/ early 80s) but have also discovered Neverwinter MMORPG through my PlayStation 4 console. I enjoy playing both BUT they are vastly different.
The MMO is simply one's character bashing monsters and acquiring things and increasing one's level, not solving puzzles or properly exploring regions, it's a rather limited game which (have you noticed the increasing number pumpkins in the Protector's Enclave?), like Skyrim et al, one can tire of quite easily. The MMO is a place for Hasbro to generate revenue from the players. Sadly...
The RPG on the other hand considerably grabs my attention - the social interaction with other humans, the unpredictable nature of PCs and how a game can truly create an interesting fun story etc etc. Anyway just my pennies worth to this thread.
Quote from: Omega;1055762Yes and no. What was happening to TSR was something that had been going on for a long time. Retailers "returning" the book for a refund.
What they really did was return the COVER and then sold the coverless book. This was happening to comics to for quite a while. Since at least the 70s.
To be fair though TSR was sending too much stock to retailers as well and then asking them to foot the bill. If Retailer XYZ was owed 10000$they sent the retailer 10000$ worth of book product. The book publisher/retailer does not get paid and can only get the lost money back by selling the product. Which was a win-win for TSR. With them not paying the retailer what was owned. Having worked in a actual bookstore retailers cannot sell a book without a cover it is illegal. It's not to say it never happened in the industry yet a established publishing company like Random House if they were caught would face a hefty fine. It's why many paperback books have a "if you bought this book without a cover then it is stolen property and neither the publisher nor the author has received payment for the stripped book" style message. Sure the less than honest flgs owner may sell a stripped book. Or it gets taken out of their garbage. If anyone made it worse for themselves it was TSR. I would be pissed if I owned a publishing company and TSR instead of paying me kept sending me more books instead. By sending back stripped covers they cannot send those same books back again and avoid paying what they owe. With TSR too many were sent back at one time and it hurt them financially.
Quote from: TallTony;1062167Not sure if I'm in the right thread here, and my apologies to you all if I'm not, BUT I've rediscovered my love for RPGs (I started playing in the late 70s/ early 80s) but have also discovered Neverwinter MMORPG through my PlayStation 4 console. I enjoy playing both BUT they are vastly different.
The MMO is simply one's character bashing monsters and acquiring things and increasing one's level, not solving puzzles or properly exploring regions, it's a rather limited game which (have you noticed the increasing number pumpkins in the Protector's Enclave?), like Skyrim et al, one can tire of quite easily. The MMO is a place for Hasbro to generate revenue from the players. Sadly...
The RPG on the other hand considerably grabs my attention - the social interaction with other humans, the unpredictable nature of PCs and how a game can truly create an interesting fun story etc etc. Anyway just my pennies worth to this thread.
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