So, while GGRoy is busy working out all the math for us in public, I thought I would toss out a few fundamental ideas.

In regards to daily powers, I think those should be more or less exclusively magical effects.  Nothing mundane should really be usable once per day, the mental gymnastics required to justify that take away from verisimilitude, in my opinion.

I like the idea of 'racial powers'.  In fact, if there are several different groupings like that to choose powers from, I would like that even better.  Class, race, power source, and so on.  In fact, it might be even more streamlined to simply classify magic items under an 'equipment powers' category, so they can follow the same rules; ie, they would have at-will and/or encounter powers.  Perhaps this is where a daily category would come in very handy.  So, characters would have several at-wills from several different categories to round things out better.  Class powers would be combat-related, racial powers would be utilities, equipment could be either or both, and so on.  Boots of Speed, then, would have an Encounter power of Haste.  Perhaps a daily that is usable twice per day or something.  This would mark a return to magical items that are not (more or less) exclusively combat oriented.

At-wills are pretty weak, overall.  I think having between four and six to choose from won't be much of a problem at any given level, although building up to that over the course of a number of levels would probably be best.  Perhaps an additional at-will is added every three or four levels instead of having two for 30 levels with the only option to swap them out each level.  Of course, the option to swap them around should still be retained, but with the same limitation of only one per level.  This would require a bit of work to add in higher level at-wills, and in any event, they probably shouldn't be higher than 10th level, if that.

Tiers should be more of a guideline than hard and fast rules elements.  The powers are already given levels, so it isn't like there needs to be an additional categorization to make sure your 1st level Cleric doesn't take a 25th level Encounter power.  Grouping levels into three sets of ten isn't a bad idea for power distribution, as well as determining when powers get a boost, but hard-coding them into game mechanical terms always seemed kind of useless to me.

I will think of some more stuff later.

EDIT:  Apologies to the staff, I probably should have started this in DDR.  I will have no complaints if it is moved over there instead.

Quote from: StormBringer;400951At-wills are pretty weak, overall.

Not all at-wills are created equal.

At-wills which are ranged area attacks, tend to be a lot more nasty than melee at-wills hitting one target directly.  This is especially the case when a wizard spamming an at-will ranged area attack, is behind a bunch of defenders (tanks) and almost untouchable.

Similar scenario if there's a ravine or something uncrossable between the players and enemies.

Quote from: ggroy;400956Not all at-wills are created equal.

At-wills which are ranged area attacks, tend to be a lot more nasty than melee at-wills hitting one target directly.  This is especially the case when a wizard spamming an at-will ranged area attack, is behind a bunch of defenders (tanks) and almost untouchable.

Similar scenario if there's a ravine or something uncrossable between the players and enemies.

Sure, there are some situational considerations, but as far as straight damage ratings go, they are not so powerful that they should be limited to a pair of them for 30 levels, in my opinion.

Plus, since we are in the process of writing a set of rules anyway, we damn well can make all at-wills equal.  Well, closer than they are now.  

I'd like to see more At-Will options.

BTW, do we want to consider removing the grid?  Maybe as an optional set of rules and just make it fully playable w/o board or minis?   I know this affects A LOT, but might be interesting.

As an alternate consideration, what about an optional set that moves even more boardgame and goes full blown Warhammer Questy?

Quote from: Spinachcat;401177I'd like to see more At-Will options.

BTW, do we want to consider removing the grid?  Maybe as an optional set of rules and just make it fully playable w/o board or minis?   I know this affects A LOT, but might be interesting.

As an alternate consideration, what about an optional set that moves even more boardgame and goes full blown Warhammer Questy?

I like both of those options.  I think Peregrin was talking about range circles from Savage Worlds in the other thread.  That sounds like an excellent mechanic to streamline combat so players can concentrate on the combat options instead of getting overloaded with a chess mini-game in the middle of deciding which at-will to use or if it is time to bring out the big Encounter guns.

Another thought about at-wills just hit me, a way to keep them more equal is to remove the knock-on effects to a large degree.  So, no 3 or 5 square pushing, Only one round of additional damage (if that, ie no 'save ends') and so on.  The primary effect can still be any of those things, but that is all it would do.  Cleave or Tide of Iron are OK as they are written but Hellish Rebuke is a bit over-powered; perhaps static fire damage if the character is hit again.  Maybe bump Hellish Rebuke up to 2nd level and leave it as-is.  Something along those lines.  So even a 10th level at-will (if that is the direction this goes) would only have maybe three squares of movement for a knock-on, or additional static damage a bit higher, say 5 points or something.

Then, all the cool knock-ons can be moved up to the Encounter level powers and could be expanded greatly. 2[W] + movement effect + ally buff + possible additional damage or something.  Keep the additional damage bits quasi-random so the players don't just go nova with all their Encounter powers on their first turn to get the opponent(s) worn down a bit.  Even situational, like if the opponent is bloodied or under another effect like stunned or blinded.  It could encourage more teamwork and planning also.

Quote from: Spinachcat;400908How about adding Racial Minimums?
If you want to play a Dwarf, then its CON 10 and WIS 10 as a base.

This is kind of how it already works.

I'm of the opinion that races don't really need stat bumps. Look at the 4E Dwarf for instance, even without the +2 to CON they get:

Cast Iron Stomach: +5 on saves vs. poison effects

Stand Your Ground: When the dwarf is subjected to forced movement, he/she is moved 1 less square than the effect specifies. When an effect would knock a dwarf prone, he/she may make a saving throw to stay up.

These racial abilities reinforce the notion that Dwarves are stout and sturdy, while the + to CON/WIS heavily influences what classes people will use them for.

I think that this would be a good direction for race designs.

 

Quote from: Spinachcat;400908Recharge is cool, but less bookkeeping the better.   What if we just gave non-Minion monsters an Action Point?  And then let Action Points be used to recharge Encounter Powers?

The re-charge mechanic for monster encounter powers works well enough I think. It's a bit more dice rolling, but that part happens quickly in actual play.

If instead of rolling for each power, you assigned values to certain powers, say:

Power 1 (recharge 4,5,6); Power 2 (recharge 5,6); Power 3 (recharge 6)

And rolled 1d6 for all at the beginning of each turn (I do this in my home games) then it would go a lot faster, and adds a bit of suspense to the proceedings. (Especially if you do something really sadistic, like having players roll for monster power recharge )  

 

Quote from: Spinachcat;400908Elites would get 2 Action Points and Solos would get 3 (or 1 per player as I prefer).  Players and Monsters could choose to use APs as a reroll, a bonus action or just to recharge an Encounter power.

The problem here is that a bonus action is almost always a better option than a re-roll or recharging an encounter. As it is, Paragon paths add these extras on top of what spending an action point already does, which makes them more exciting.

Quote from: StormBringer;400951In regards to daily powers, I think those should be more or less exclusively magical effects.  Nothing mundane should really be usable once per day, the mental gymnastics required to justify that take away from verisimilitude, in my opinion.

This is largely a matter of taste I think. I can see this from your point of view, but for myself and many others who play 4E, the idea of martial dailies just doesn't stretch our suspension of disbelief that far.

I think that the problem with daily powers in general, especially martial powers, is that players basically horde dailies until a boss battle and unload them in order from strongest to weakest almost every time. There is very little variety there and it's part of the reason why many find combat boring in 4E despite all of the options available.

Furthermore, I think that if you are going to have a division between A/E/D powers, then the division between each should be more clear. That is, I think that encounter powers should be a classes bread and butter, while daily powers are much, much more powerful.

Quote from: StormBringer;400951Tiers should be more of a guideline than hard and fast rules elements.  The powers are already given levels, so it isn't like there needs to be an additional categorization to make sure your 1st level Cleric doesn't take a 25th level Encounter power.  Grouping levels into three sets of ten isn't a bad idea for power distribution, as well as determining when powers get a boost, but hard-coding them into game mechanical terms always seemed kind of useless to me.

I'm of the opinion that level tiers (heroic, paragon and epic) should each have their own distinct feel...and mechanics are one of the best ways to do it. Things like Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies could have done it, but they just don't change things up enough between tiers. I think that if you treated these things more like prestige classes, then the division between tiers could have been more exciting and distinct.

Quote from: Shazbot79;401501This is largely a matter of taste I think. I can see this from your point of view, but for myself and many others who play 4E, the idea of martial dailies just doesn't stretch our suspension of disbelief that far.

It is a matter of taste to a degree, but of all the complaints from people that don't otherwise have complaints, I seem to recall this is the biggie.  Besides skill challenges.  

QuoteI think that the problem with daily powers in general, especially martial powers, is that players basically horde dailies until a boss battle and unload them in order from strongest to weakest almost every time. There is very little variety there and it's part of the reason why many find combat boring in 4E despite all of the options available.

Furthermore, I think that if you are going to have a division between A/E/D powers, then the division between each should be more clear. That is, I think that encounter powers should be a classes bread and butter, while daily powers are much, much more powerful.

Your solution to the combat predictability seems like a sound one.  Perhaps bump all encounters up to two or three per encounter, and retain the APs to get one more after those have been used.  Drop the at-wills as I suggested earlier, so they have very limited knock-on effects, and I think that will mix things up a bit more.  Further, when there are several encounter powers available at a level, strive to make them all distinct so there isn't an overlap of movement or status effects.  I haven't delved into the lists enough to know if that is currently true or not.

QuoteI'm of the opinion that level tiers (heroic, paragon and epic) should each have their own distinct feel...and mechanics are one of the best ways to do it. Things like Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies could have done it, but they just don't change things up enough between tiers. I think that if you treated these things more like prestige classes, then the division between tiers could have been more exciting and distinct.

A good point as well.  I am not suggesting abolishing them altogether, they do make for decent division points.  As you mention, they are anaemic and not mechanically robust enough in the current iteration.  Give the martial classes (especially Fighters) extra attacks, for example, or increase the damage die type for spells; a d6 for most in Heroic, then in Paragon, most spells will use a d8 instead.  Something along those lines, the details would have to be hashed out, of course.

Quote from: Shazbot79;401501I'm of the opinion that level tiers (heroic, paragon and epic) should each have their own distinct feel...and mechanics are one of the best ways to do it.

I agree each tier should have a distinct feel

I am unsure how it should occur mechanicly.

I like the ideas of the stakes getting higher, fights tougher and powers more dynamic and impressive.  Certainly Epic D&D should look like Exalted.