Quote from: Mistwell on February 08, 2023, 11:34:15 PM
He didn't say leave "the hobby" he was talking about WOTC higher up design positions.

But as usual we get "6 positions" turned into "EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!! BURN IT ALL DOWN THEY HATE US ALL!!!!!!!!"

He was asked about diversity.  He answered first on diversity. THEN he switched to the player base being white and immediately stated he can't wait for people like him to be gone, then he went back to diversity again after making his racist statement.

So now ask yourself, what is better?  An exec at his company breaking his companies race policy by insulting white customers OR breaking his companies HR policy for publicly stating he wants to violate Title IX?  Any white male who interviewed at D&D and had Kyle Brink involved in any part of the hiring process can now sue D&D for violating their civil rights if D&D hired anyone but a white male.

I get carrying water for D&D, but man you got a water tower on your back on this one.

The sooner Blacks leave professional sports, the better things will be.

The sooner Jews leave the banking and entertainment industries, the better things will be.

Now I'll sit back and wait for the usual suspects (i.e., those covering for WOTC here) to say the two statements above are perfectly acceptable because the fact that blacks dominate professional sports and Jews dominate Hollywood and banking MUST mean that they are gatekeeping and intentionally discriminating against everyone not in their own group.  Couldn't possibly be any other reason.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 08, 2023, 11:54:38 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on February 08, 2023, 11:34:15 PM
He didn't say leave "the hobby" he was talking about WOTC higher up design positions.

But as usual we get "6 positions" turned into "EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!! BURN IT ALL DOWN THEY HATE US ALL!!!!!!!!"

He was asked about diversity.  He answered first on diversity. THEN he switched to the player base being white and immediately stated he can't wait for people like him to be gone, then he went back to diversity again after making his racist statement.

So now ask yourself, what is better?  An exec at his company breaking his companies race policy by insulting white customers OR breaking his companies HR policy for publicly stating he wants to violate Title IX?  Any white male who interviewed at D&D and had Kyle Brink involved in any part of the hiring process can now sue D&D for violating their civil rights if D&D hired anyone but a white male.

I get carrying water for D&D, but man you got a water tower on your back on this one.

He said (if you listen to the whole friggen thing rather than a summary) they want a diverse pool to choose from, and then once thy have that pool, they choose the best candidate. Nothing illegal about that, and he was VERY clear in not talking about the hobby players themselves.

The confusion might be there are TWO interviews now with the guy, talking about similar topics.

But hey, you go on with the "discredit anyone who interferes with our spin" tactics mang. It's what works for threads like this and I am sure you will get lots of backpats and attaboys.

Quote from: Mistwell on February 08, 2023, 11:34:15 PM
He didn't say leave "the hobby" he was talking about WOTC higher up design positions.

But as usual we get "6 positions" turned into "EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!! BURN IT ALL DOWN THEY HATE US ALL!!!!!!!!"

Yeah guys, he was "ONLY" talking about discriminating against white men in Wotzi hiring because they're white men, where's the racism/sexism in that?

In case you didn't get it that's sarcasm, not only he WAS talking about the player base, but your defense of the racist and sexist fuck doesn't make things any better.

Quote from: jhkim on February 08, 2023, 10:35:18 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 08, 2023, 09:39:24 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 08, 2023, 08:52:46 PMI don't think that percentages are proof of bias, but I also don't think that all racism and sexism are long gone from society, as Grognard GM has claimed.

That's not even disingenuous, it's an outright lie.

I said systemic white racism, and systemic sexism, don't exist any more, and haven't in a half century. Christ, companies are falling over themselves to insert every minority they can, as fast as they can. Not the actions of an oppressive cracker society.

I don't intend to misrepresent you. Here was the exchange:

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 07, 2023, 07:20:30 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 07, 2023, 06:34:51 PM
I don't think there should be society-wide fixes, but specific entities that discriminate should be legally and ethically liable. This is true legally in the U.S. If a company is found guilty of workplace discrimination, then they have to make restitution to the parties that were affected by the discrimination. The court may also order workplace changes to ensure that such discrimination does not happen again.

Even if it doesn't go through a lawsuit, the ethical principle is still there. If a thief steals money, then they should be made to give the money back. They shouldn't be told to keep the money but sternly warned not to steal again.

Again, I'm not claiming that WotC did discriminate -- but if they did, then there should be consequences.

You need to build a time machine that can go back at least 50 years to find the systemic -isms in society that your brain fever-dreams still exist.

Your godless-religion looks at gaps naturally formed from demographics and natural group preferences, and through it's twisted kaleidoscope it can only see oppression and -isms.

How am I supposed to interpret this? All I said that it was possible that WotC discriminated, and you shot back that I had to go back 50+ years.

So Grognard GM WAS talking about systemic isms, you only have proven him right that you're lying about what he said dude.

The forum Marxists are circling the wagons like clockwork...

Do we have any female forum members here?  I'm not aware of any.  Must be because all of us -- including the left-wingers here -- despise women and are deliberately keeping them from participating.  I recommend that certain male members (the WOTC defenders specifically) gracefully resign and pick some woman in their lives to take their place here.   Male oppressors like them can't leave the site fast enough.  Time we got some gender diversity around here.  Hell, the women don't even have to like RPGs or have played a game in their lives!  The diversity is what's important here, not how much members can contribute or how much personal interest they have in the subject.

Quote from: Mistwell on February 09, 2023, 01:19:35 AMHe said (if you listen to the whole friggen thing rather than a summary) they want a diverse pool to choose from, and then once thy have that pool, they choose the best candidate. Nothing illegal about that, and he was VERY clear in not talking about the hobby players themselves.

Whether he's talking about a "diverse pool to choose from" or he's talking about a diverse player base, neither of those things require white people to leave the hobby. So, no matter how you interpret what he said, it was an anti white statement.

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 08, 2023, 09:39:24 PMI said systemic white racism, and systemic sexism, don't exist any more, and haven't in a half century. Christ, companies are falling over themselves to insert every minority they can, as fast as they can. Not the actions of an oppressive cracker society.

True, though systemic racism and sexism certainly do exist, probably in a stronger form now than they have in decades. Anti-white racism and anti-male sexism. It's not just WotC that makes anti-white and/or anti-male statements. Almost all big corporations say that kind of thing and openly say that they are trying to hire more "diversity" and fewer whites and/or males, which is essentially the same thing. Colleges and universities openly admit to racial and sex discrimination in admissions and scholarships. The US government also openly discriminates, such as directing Covid funds to go towards minorities instead of whites, for a recent example.

If the corporations, universities, and government are all encouraging and engaging in anti-white discrimination and racism, that is pretty damn systemic.

Quote from: I on February 09, 2023, 07:36:33 AM
Do we have any female forum members here?  I'm not aware of any.

There are some.

Though there's nothing wrong with not having diversity. If some hobby, profession, or activity has certain demographics that are over or under represented, that's perfectly alright. Unless its white or male over-representation in which case it's proof of discrimination and evil. 

Quote from: ShieldWife on February 09, 2023, 09:20:19 AM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 08, 2023, 09:39:24 PMI said systemic white racism, and systemic sexism, don't exist any more, and haven't in a half century. Christ, companies are falling over themselves to insert every minority they can, as fast as they can. Not the actions of an oppressive cracker society.

True, though systemic racism and sexism certainly do exist, probably in a stronger form now than they have in decades. Anti-white racism and anti-male sexism. It's not just WotC that makes anti-white and/or anti-male statements. Almost all big corporations say that kind of thing and openly say that they are trying to hire more "diversity" and fewer whites and/or males, which is essentially the same thing. Colleges and universities openly admit to racial and sex discrimination in admissions and scholarships. The US government also openly discriminates, such as directing Covid funds to go towards minorities instead of whites, for a recent example.

If the corporations, universities, and government are all encouraging and engaging in anti-white discrimination and racism, that is pretty damn systemic.

Technically, systemic racism is discrimination by race that is codified into law; so while I agree that there is some systemic racism left in the US, the discriminatory hiring practices at Wizards and other big companies aren't it. Those are just plain garden-variety racism. Also directing COVID funds into minority neighbourhoods (or, in the past, directing housing subsidies preferentially to majority-white neighbourhoods) isn't systemic racism, just plain racism. The Jim Crow laws were systemic racism, and Affirmative Action laws are systemic racism. I'm not aware of anything else that still stands in the law books in 2023, though.

QuoteTechnically, systemic racism is discrimination by race that is codified into law;

I always thought those using "systemic racism" moniker meant it's presence in social structures - not necessarily legal ones.

Quote from: Wrath of God on February 09, 2023, 10:41:38 AM
I always thought those using "systemic racism" moniker meant it's presence in social structures - not necessarily legal ones.

Sure, that's how it's colloquially perceived; but the term was coined to describe racism by the (legal) system, or as Wiki puts it, "is a form of racism that is embedded in the laws and regulations of a society or an organization." There is a related concept, "societal racism," which again Wiki defines as "...racism based on a set of institutional, historical, cultural and interpersonal practices within a society that places one or more social or ethnic groups in a better position to succeed and disadvantages other groups so that disparities develop between the groups," which is probably what most people mean when they talk about "systemic racism."

Why does any of this matter? Because systemic racism is easy to identify and relatively straightforward to combat (if sometimes difficult due to the need for legislative power to overturn existing laws); societal racism, on the other hand, is a much more nebulous concept which is hard to delimit, and much harder to draft an effective strategy to tackle it. It may be that we will never be able to realistically eliminate all forms of societal racism in this Fallen Earth, but eliminating racial and sexual discrimination from our legal codes is a much simpler (and eminently attainable!) goal.

So I'm curious if these remarks have actually made anyone here decide to stop buying WotC products that formerly were WotC fans?

Quote from: tenbones on February 09, 2023, 11:55:27 AM
So I'm curious if these remarks have actually made anyone here decide to stop buying WotC products that formerly were WotC fans?

It strengthened my desire to disengage with WoTC and play non-WoTC games. I think I was pretty much a fan until ca 2018 even though their adventures were rarely good.

Quote from: I on February 09, 2023, 07:36:33 AM
Do we have any female forum members here?  I'm not aware of any.

ShieldWife, and if BoxCrayonTales isn't female I'll eat my hat. Apart from that I don't personally know of any.

Which means we're representative of traditional roleplaying. A whole lot of dudes, mostly white, with any women or Western-minorities fully welcome as equals.

I know stuff like 5E has managed to substantially up the number of women and Western-minorities (although still a blip, they're deluding themselves) but I put it to you (dear reader) that this has only been done by becoming a lifestyle brand fad and reducing mechanical complexity.

Being maths heavy and very complex has always been a complaint from women wanting in to the hobby. If you were a woman and you didn't mind those things, you were an outlier, and already in the hobby having fun.

It's a matter of how much we want to strip down complexity to draw in a new female audience, and where's the point where the hobby changes so much that the original fans don't want to be part of it?

As for getting more Western-minority players, that's never been a problem of exclusion. I'm sure any black guys here can chime in with how aggressively the black community polices its own for 'acting White.' How is pretending to be an Elf 'acting White?' It just is, stay in your lane!