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Author Topic: D&D 4e: I kinda get it now  (Read 13602 times)

Shrieking Banshee

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D&D 4e: I kinda get it now
« on: June 20, 2021, 09:00:21 AM »
Well for analysis reasons I cracked open my 4e books. D&D 4e was the first tabletop RPG I ever played, but I have no nostalgia for it. After reading some discussions online, I refreshed my memory of the books.

And...I get it. Its not my thing, and if you dislike what it is, its elements become pure flaws, but I generally get what its idea is, and what the people who like it see in it.
Its not a MMO. While it has designated combat roles, its combat isn't MMO like, and it is not nearly as restrictive as a MMO. Its still very videogamey, but Its more a CRPG. In videogame terms, oldschool D&D is more a Rougelike (akin to streets of rogue or unexplored), while this is a CRPG (akin to Shadowrun Returns). And I can sorta see why some people that actually like D&D basic see it as more a direct successor.

The combat sub-game of D&D is more disconnected then ever within it, and thats where the most amount of character option based sacrifices happen. In addition the powers make no fucking goddam sense at all from the perspective of relating to the 'real world'. The character roles are boiled down to specific combat sub-groups for the sole purpose of making the combat sub-game fun (for the people that like this sort of thing). There is no 'Sniper' role, or 'Illusionist'. But striker and controller. Which is making huge player option sacrifices for the purposes of making generally everybody at the same level during most scenarious, in combat or out of combat. There are 'magic' options for stuff, but its almost always costly. Creating a temporary illusionary guy will cost you a few hundred gold.

To the people that are OK with it, they see the D&D combat sub-game as having always been largely disconnected from the 'real world', with the way hit points work only tangentially relating to the characters themselves. To them, they are more happy leaving anything outside of the specific sub-game elements to the GMs hands, and if a combat encounter is to happen, then have it be as mechanically engaging as possible. Its generally way more GM facing then something like 5e.

Now this isn't my thing, but years later I get it. And I respect it (though not the marketting campaign and presentation of materials). And I may play it over 5e if that ever becomes a choice for me.

Omega

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Re: D&D 4e: I kinda get it now
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2021, 11:33:23 AM »
Board gamers absolutely love 4e because it is predominantly a skirmish wargame pretending to be an RPG.

If you want to see 4e as a more D&D-ish RPG have a glance at 4e D&D Gamma World. Alot of folk hold that up as what 4e could have been. Its still a really bad RPG because WOTC wanted to glue on a CCG to it and it is so disconnected from what the designers say and whats actually in the book. It nearly succeeds in being less Gamma World than WW's d20m Gamma World. An accomplishment no one should strive for.

The problem is that 4e is not D&D the RPG. It is some board game with D&D elements glued on. And sprinkled with MMO idiot terms. The reason it gets called an MMO. That and it is tied closely to the Neverwinter MMO right down to introducing the Astral Diamond currency which is a variant on Cryptics premium MMO currency Questionite.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: D&D 4e: I kinda get it now
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2021, 11:41:58 AM »
Board gamers absolutely love 4e because it is predominantly a skirmish wargame pretending to be an RPG.
Well employing that hyperoble, D&D has always been a tactical wargame with some other trappings stapled on (and grognards take the most wargamiest of D&D as an example of the truest roleplay experience because they ignore everything they didn't like and houseruled the rest - as equally applicable to 4e).
4e is not my thing, but Im having to play devils advocate here, because it gets problems levied are not exclusive to it as D&D let alone a RPG.

Abraxus

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Re: D&D 4e: I kinda get it now
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2021, 11:46:10 AM »
I have to disagree with those who say it’s an MMO.

Everything and anything that I could get from previous versions and later version of D&D I can get in 4E. I am going to be that person and ask if people actually played 4E who call it an MMO. Or did the open the PHB see something like the “ healing power XYZ at will “ then jump to the assumption that it was an MMO. Or worse some person on the Internet  or one of the buddies claimed it was an MMO and that is all it takes. Because their buddy can’t ever be wrong.


4E tried to fix the many flaws of the 3.5. Engine yet like many players who play RPGs they want to bitch and mosn incessantly about Linear Fighter & Quadratic Wizard yet the damn designers better not do a dam thing about it. Just let them bitch about for the 10000th how broken Wizards are. The irony is for 5E they too many elements of 4E and put them in 5E. So imo if they would have written 4E like 5E most would not be claiming that 4E is an MMO. Which goes to show their is a sucker born every minute.

BTW 2005 called it wants 4E is an MMO fallacy back.
I don’t play 4E any longer it’s not my cup of tea so to speak.

Abraxus

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Re: D&D 4e: I kinda get it now
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2021, 11:48:24 AM »
Well employing that hyperoble, D&D has always been a tactical wargame with some other trappings stapled on (and grognards take the most wargamiest of D&D as an example of the truest roleplay experience because they ignore everything they didn't like and houseruled the rest - as equally applicable to 4e).
4e is not my thing, but Im having to play devils advocate here, because it gets problems levied are not exclusive to it as D&D let alone a RPG.

Don't you know every edition except their favored version of D&D has always been a tactical wargame with some other trappings stapled on. Their favored versions have always been and always will be pure 100% roleplaying editions.

Omega

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Re: D&D 4e: I kinda get it now
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2021, 11:52:10 AM »
Board gamers absolutely love 4e because it is predominantly a skirmish wargame pretending to be an RPG.
Well employing that hyperoble, D&D has always been a tactical wargame with some other trappings stapled on (and grognards take the most wargamiest of D&D as an example of the truest roleplay experience because they ignore everything they didn't like and houseruled the rest - as equally applicable to 4e).
4e is not my thing, but Im having to play devils advocate here, because it gets problems levied are not exclusive to it as D&D let alone a RPG.

Older D&D rarely used in normal play an actual board and it was alot more freeform. Keep in mind minis were rarely used despite TSR advocating them now and then. When real combats were in the offing the early advice for D&D was to pause and break out one of TSR's wargames like Chainmail or Battlesystem. BECMI even packed in a rather nice little condensed version. And of course Birthright.

4e Flips that around and really emphasizes the board game part.

Abraxus

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Re: D&D 4e: I kinda get it now
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2021, 11:57:26 AM »
Older D&D rarely used in normal play an actual board and it was alot more freeform. Keep in mind minis were rarely used despite TSR advocating them now and then. When real combats were in the offing the early advice for D&D was to pause and break out one of TSR's wargames like Chainmail or Battlesystem. BECMI even packed in a rather nice little condensed version. And of course Birthright.

4e Flips that around and really emphasizes the board game part.

You can actually play 4E without Minis and a battlemap. Do both help yes neither was every mandatory for 4E.

The 3.5 PHB does mention minis and grids among the things "you need to play".
The 4e PHB, on the other hand, explicitly says minis and grids are useful, but not necessary.
The 5e PHB says lists "playing on a grid", with "miniatures or other tokens", is a variant (i.e, an optional rule).

Omega

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Re: D&D 4e: I kinda get it now
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2021, 12:24:28 PM »
The other thing board gamers tout about 4e is how Balanced it is.

But how balanced is it really? Anyone actually played it extensively know?

HappyDaze

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Re: D&D 4e: I kinda get it now
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2021, 01:16:34 PM »
The other thing board gamers tout about 4e is how Balanced it is.

But how balanced is it really? Anyone actually played it extensively know?
I know that many later versions of feats were added specifically to address imbalance,  and they became viewed as must-haves. However, IIRC, the degree of imbalance they addressed was rather small.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: D&D 4e: I kinda get it now
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2021, 01:37:19 PM »
The other thing board gamers tout about 4e is how Balanced it is.
The fuck is this? The spanish inquisition? You looking for other people to find faults in the game so you can complain about it?
If you need to know, some of the monster maths where borked earlier on.

Using a tactical board for easy movement reference is so anti-rpg. But busting out a wargame for tactical resolution puts the R in the RPG everyday!

Lynn

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Re: D&D 4e: I kinda get it now
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2021, 02:00:07 PM »
I have to disagree with those who say it’s an MMO.

Everything and anything that I could get from previous versions and later version of D&D I can get in 4E. I am going to be that person and ask if people actually played 4E who call it an MMO. Or did the open the PHB see something like the “ healing power XYZ at will “ then jump to the assumption that it was an MMO. Or worse some person on the Internet  or one of the buddies claimed it was an MMO and that is all it takes. Because their buddy can’t ever be wrong.

I have the 4e PHB but I never played it. For the most part, I followed a crowd of folks that went from 3.5 to Pathfinder then back for 5e. It obviously isn't an MMO. I have played plenty of MMOs and still play one since 2007.

However there was no mistaking the changes in language in the PHB to appeal to the World of Warcraft generation. While some of the mechanical changes of 4e seemingly persist in 5e, that to me didn't 'ruin' it for me (though I think dying is a little too easy to avoid).

What was relevant to me was that WotC wasn't interested enough in its legacy customer base and went ahead and re-framed the presentation of the game for the MMO crowd, without considering how it would offend that legacy customer base. They learned that lesson before launching 5e fortunately.
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Abraxus

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Re: D&D 4e: I kinda get it now
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2021, 02:09:07 PM »

I have the 4e PHB but I never played it. For the most part, I followed a crowd of folks that went from 3.5 to Pathfinder then back for 5e. It obviously isn't an MMO. I have played plenty of MMOs and still play one since 2007.

However there was no mistaking the changes in language in the PHB to appeal to the World of Warcraft generation. While some of the mechanical changes of 4e seemingly persist in 5e, that to me didn't 'ruin' it for me (though I think dying is a little too easy to avoid).

What was relevant to me was that WotC wasn't interested enough in its legacy customer base and went ahead and re-framed the presentation of the game for the MMO crowd, without considering how it would offend that legacy customer base. They learned that lesson before launching 5e fortunately.

I agree about them trying to present the PHB with language geared more towards the MMO generation though I don't think it makes 4E an MMO. Even then it's something that Wotc and to tap into given the popularity of MMOs. Lets be honest the legacy crowd really dislikes change for the most part. They rather complain about the flaws of an rpg then see any of the same flaws fixed. Wizards are broken in 3.5. just don't change anything about them in later editions. Which as you said thankfully they fixed in 5E. Even though it does showcase how much tabletop gamers can because they hated 4E yet write it as a traditional rpg and suddenly they love 5E. Even when 5E borrows many elements from 4E.

Lynn

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Re: D&D 4e: I kinda get it now
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2021, 02:29:22 PM »
I agree about them trying to present the PHB with language geared more towards the MMO generation though I don't think it makes 4E an MMO. Even then it's something that Wotc and to tap into given the popularity of MMOs. Lets be honest the legacy crowd really dislikes change for the most part. They rather complain about the flaws of an rpg then see any of the same flaws fixed. Wizards are broken in 3.5. just don't change anything about them in later editions. Which as you said thankfully they fixed in 5E. Even though it does showcase how much tabletop gamers can because they hated 4E yet write it as a traditional rpg and suddenly they love 5E. Even when 5E borrows many elements from 4E.

It does have a long history of being a niche hobby, and long time players are in so many ways 'early adopter' types. The more you invest in something, the more likely you will take radical change as a negative.
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Shrieking Banshee

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Re: D&D 4e: I kinda get it now
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2021, 02:35:26 PM »
Which as you said thankfully they fixed in 5E.

Not really. Maybe they can't outperform dedicated builds, but a endless bag of utility options > hit stuff better with a sword. Magic is still king in 5e, its just back to being king like in the 2e days, after being the god emperor in the 3e days.

Shasarak

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Re: D&D 4e: I kinda get it now
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2021, 05:32:26 PM »
I have to disagree with those who say it’s an MMO.

I would not call 4e an MMO.


Thats not being fair to MMOs.
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