DCCRPG going Woke

DragonBane · December 10, 2021, 01:53:00 PM

What I hate about feminists and special groups is that they never show themselves until the work is done.

It was guys, especially suburban white guys, who made dungeons and dragons a success. These people were made out to be freaking weirdos who hide in school basements waiting to kill people they thought were monsters, or at least geek losers- well, when dungeons and dragons was a thing in culture like video games that's when diversity wanted most of the pizza.

And they keep WINNING.

Shasarak · December 10, 2021, 03:52:27 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on December 10, 2021, 01:25:31 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 10, 2021, 01:10:38 PM
Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 09, 2021, 11:16:50 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 07, 2021, 09:10:40 PMAnd in the OSR era, everyone I've seen who is a neo-old-school gamer is very insistent on 3d6-in-order.

There have been multiple people in this thread and in the other attribute one that are old school gamers but don't use 3d6-in-order. Do we not count for some reason?

My point is that the people who are into the OSR now but were never part of the original old-school are even MORE fundmentalist about things like character generation than the actual old-schoolers.

That will fade after their 3rd 11 strength fighter they get to play.

So by the second session then?

RPGPundit · December 11, 2021, 01:41:14 PM

My experience has really been the contrary. Players who have rolled sub-optimal stats end up being surprised that at worse, it doesn't much matter, and at best it lets them think of more character to give their PC.

HappyDaze · December 11, 2021, 02:09:09 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 11, 2021, 01:41:14 PM
My experience has really been the contrary. Players who have rolled sub-optimal stats end up being surprised that at worse, it doesn't much matter, and at best it lets them think of more character to give their PC.

That's the same argument (i.e., either doesn't matter or let's them think of more character to give them) some players have for putting their characters in wheelchairs.

RPGPundit · December 11, 2021, 03:12:58 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on December 11, 2021, 02:09:09 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 11, 2021, 01:41:14 PM
My experience has really been the contrary. Players who have rolled sub-optimal stats end up being surprised that at worse, it doesn't much matter, and at best it lets them think of more character to give their PC.
That's the same argument (i.e., either doesn't matter or let's them think of more character to give them) some players have for putting their characters in wheelchairs.

There's a difference between random rolls, character concepts (I mean, sometimes a wheelchair-bound character might be appropriate for some types of games), and Diversity Quotas.

The difference between an 11STR fighter and an 18STR fighter is a +3 to hit and damage, that's it. Makes some difference, obviously, at levels 1-3, becomes increasingly less important as you go on. An 11STR character isn't crippled, he's TYPICAL. An 18STR fighter is meant to be incredibly rare (unless you're being cheap with the character generation).

The biggest difference is that the thing that defines the 18STR fighter is already obvious, he's Strong-Man. But what defines your 11STR fighter?

Persimmon · December 12, 2021, 09:53:11 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 11, 2021, 03:12:58 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on December 11, 2021, 02:09:09 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 11, 2021, 01:41:14 PM
My experience has really been the contrary. Players who have rolled sub-optimal stats end up being surprised that at worse, it doesn't much matter, and at best it lets them think of more character to give their PC.
That's the same argument (i.e., either doesn't matter or let's them think of more character to give them) some players have for putting their characters in wheelchairs.

There's a difference between random rolls, character concepts (I mean, sometimes a wheelchair-bound character might be appropriate for some types of games), and Diversity Quotas.

The difference between an 11STR fighter and an 18STR fighter is a +3 to hit and damage, that's it. Makes some difference, obviously, at levels 1-3, becomes increasingly less important as you go on. An 11STR character isn't crippled, he's TYPICAL. An 18STR fighter is meant to be incredibly rare (unless you're being cheap with the character generation).

The biggest difference is that the thing that defines the 18STR fighter is already obvious, he's Strong-Man. But what defines your 11STR fighter?

Funny; that's why I've come to like the fact that certain iterations of D&D like Swords & Wizardry & White Box give across the board XP bonuses for high Charisma and sometimes Wisdom scores. So if you want to play that fighter with average strength or thief with a 10 Dex and have a cool concept for it, you're not necessarily shortchanged for the low prime requisite. Maybe that thief is a conman swindler type, hence the 16 Charisma....

HappyDaze · December 12, 2021, 10:23:34 AM

Quote from: Persimmon on December 12, 2021, 09:53:11 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 11, 2021, 03:12:58 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on December 11, 2021, 02:09:09 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 11, 2021, 01:41:14 PM
My experience has really been the contrary. Players who have rolled sub-optimal stats end up being surprised that at worse, it doesn't much matter, and at best it lets them think of more character to give their PC.
That's the same argument (i.e., either doesn't matter or let's them think of more character to give them) some players have for putting their characters in wheelchairs.

There's a difference between random rolls, character concepts (I mean, sometimes a wheelchair-bound character might be appropriate for some types of games), and Diversity Quotas.

The difference between an 11STR fighter and an 18STR fighter is a +3 to hit and damage, that's it. Makes some difference, obviously, at levels 1-3, becomes increasingly less important as you go on. An 11STR character isn't crippled, he's TYPICAL. An 18STR fighter is meant to be incredibly rare (unless you're being cheap with the character generation).

The biggest difference is that the thing that defines the 18STR fighter is already obvious, he's Strong-Man. But what defines your 11STR fighter?

Funny; that's why I've come to like the fact that certain iterations of D&D like Swords & Wizardry & White Box give across the board XP bonuses for high Charisma and sometimes Wisdom scores. So if you want to play that fighter with average strength or thief with a 10 Dex and have a cool concept for it, you're not necessarily shortchanged for the low prime requisite. Maybe that thief is a conman swindler type, hence the 16 Charisma....

Other games offer different paths to proficiency, such as attacks based on a different ability score (like the Finesse weapons of 5e) or just base attacks on combinations of attributes (like Rolemaster). I like these when they make in-game sense, but I dislike them when they are done just to be a gamey work-around for a dump stat.

Ratman_tf · December 12, 2021, 10:39:13 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 11, 2021, 03:12:58 PM
The biggest difference is that the thing that defines the 18STR fighter is already obvious, he's Strong-Man. But what defines your 11STR fighter?

Being worse than an 18 STR fighter.

I can deal with the idea of a random roll take what you get game. But I don't find it very fun anymore. There's only so many ways you can dress up an 11 STR fighter until it gets tiresome.
If it came to that, I'd rather just rip stats and their bonuses out of the game altogether instead of rolling. Let's really role play and not fuck around with using at as an excuse for variance in the stat generation.

Chris24601 · December 12, 2021, 02:57:38 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 12, 2021, 10:39:13 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 11, 2021, 03:12:58 PM
The biggest difference is that the thing that defines the 18STR fighter is already obvious, he's Strong-Man. But what defines your 11STR fighter?

Being worse than an 18 STR fighter.

I can deal with the idea of a random roll take what you get game. But I don't find it very fun anymore. There's only so many ways you can dress up an 11 STR fighter until it gets tiresome.
If it came to that, I'd rather just rip stats and their bonuses out of the game altogether instead of rolling. Let's really role play and not fuck around with using at as an excuse for variance in the stat generation.

It's not D&D, but I built a military sci-fi game that had no core stats; just starting skill levels assigned by your choice of Military Occupational Specialty that improved with use.

Were you an amazing pilot because of your lightning rookie reflexes or years of honing your craft? You can decide that for yourself. The starting skill level was the same regardless; you were good enough to have a starting military rank in that profession.

If not for things like spellcasting needing certain scores to cast higher level spells I'd think it'd be just as easy to just strip ability scores out entirely and use the base abilities of the classes and their levels.

DocJones · December 12, 2021, 07:35:33 PM

Quote from: Persimmon on December 12, 2021, 09:53:11 AM

Funny; that's why I've come to like the fact that certain iterations of D&D like Swords & Wizardry & White Box give across the board XP bonuses for high Charisma and sometimes Wisdom scores. So if you want to play that fighter with average strength or thief with a 10 Dex and have a cool concept for it, you're not necessarily shortchanged for the low prime requisite. Maybe that thief is a conman swindler type, hence the 16 Charisma....

Yes in the white box D&D version the only difference between an STR 11 and STR 18 fighter is the STR 18 fighter got a 10% bonus to experience.
The to-hit and damage bonuses did not show up until the Greyhawk supplement. Even then the bonus for STR 18 was +2 to-hit +3 damage.

Omega · December 13, 2021, 12:45:38 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 10, 2021, 01:10:38 PM
Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 09, 2021, 11:16:50 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 07, 2021, 09:10:40 PMAnd in the OSR era, everyone I've seen who is a neo-old-school gamer is very insistent on 3d6-in-order.

There have been multiple people in this thread and in the other attribute one that are old school gamers but don't use 3d6-in-order. Do we not count for some reason?

My point is that the people who are into the OSR now but were never part of the original old-school are even MORE fundmentalist about things like character generation than the actual old-schoolers.

Not just that, but Funramentalists that are fundamentally getting it wrong.

O and BX D&D both were 3d6 in order. But then you could shuffle points around within limits and at a cost.

Interestingly enough Star Frontiers had this as well in a way. Roll stats in order. Then could shuffle points around a little.

Chris24601 · December 13, 2021, 09:00:03 AM

Quote from: Omega on December 13, 2021, 12:45:38 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 10, 2021, 01:10:38 PM
Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 09, 2021, 11:16:50 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 07, 2021, 09:10:40 PMAnd in the OSR era, everyone I've seen who is a neo-old-school gamer is very insistent on 3d6-in-order.

There have been multiple people in this thread and in the other attribute one that are old school gamers but don't use 3d6-in-order. Do we not count for some reason?

My point is that the people who are into the OSR now but were never part of the original old-school are even MORE fundmentalist about things like character generation than the actual old-schoolers.

Not just that, but Funramentalists that are fundamentally getting it wrong.

O and BX D&D both were 3d6 in order. But then you could shuffle points around within limits and at a cost.

Interestingly enough Star Frontiers had this as well in a way. Roll stats in order. Then could shuffle points around a little.

If I recall correctly, it was that you could drop scores by two to add one point elsewhere.

Once you got to the BX attribute scale that could be really useful if you were on the cusp of bonus (ex. dump two points from your 11 Int to change to bump that 15 Str by a point and your Int mod is unchanged, but you just added +1 to hit and damage).

It was situational, and not generally something where you'd want to just wholesale swap stats (1 for 2 adds up quickly), but it was definitely more flexible than just 3d6 in order.

Omega · December 13, 2021, 09:47:56 AM

Thats what makes it better than just a flat random gen. It gives the player a small amount of choice and possibly more options if say their stats leaned close to one class as you point out.

Part of why I like BX so much is its lack of hard emphasis on stats. You can get by just fine with even several bad rolls in alot of cases.

Ghostmaker · December 13, 2021, 12:10:25 PM

Quote from: Omega on December 13, 2021, 09:47:56 AM
Thats what makes it better than just a flat random gen. It gives the player a small amount of choice and possibly more options if say their stats leaned close to one class as you point out.

Part of why I like BX so much is its lack of hard emphasis on stats. You can get by just fine with even several bad rolls in alot of cases.

Quite true. BECMI gives few bonuses outside of the AC and to-hit/damage bumps (I think Wisdom gives bonuses to spell saves?).

RPGPundit · December 14, 2021, 05:15:55 AM

Quote from: Persimmon on December 12, 2021, 09:53:11 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 11, 2021, 03:12:58 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on December 11, 2021, 02:09:09 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 11, 2021, 01:41:14 PM
My experience has really been the contrary. Players who have rolled sub-optimal stats end up being surprised that at worse, it doesn't much matter, and at best it lets them think of more character to give their PC.
That's the same argument (i.e., either doesn't matter or let's them think of more character to give them) some players have for putting their characters in wheelchairs.

There's a difference between random rolls, character concepts (I mean, sometimes a wheelchair-bound character might be appropriate for some types of games), and Diversity Quotas.

The difference between an 11STR fighter and an 18STR fighter is a +3 to hit and damage, that's it. Makes some difference, obviously, at levels 1-3, becomes increasingly less important as you go on. An 11STR character isn't crippled, he's TYPICAL. An 18STR fighter is meant to be incredibly rare (unless you're being cheap with the character generation).

The biggest difference is that the thing that defines the 18STR fighter is already obvious, he's Strong-Man. But what defines your 11STR fighter?

Funny; that's why I've come to like the fact that certain iterations of D&D like Swords & Wizardry & White Box give across the board XP bonuses for high Charisma and sometimes Wisdom scores. So if you want to play that fighter with average strength or thief with a 10 Dex and have a cool concept for it, you're not necessarily shortchanged for the low prime requisite. Maybe that thief is a conman swindler type, hence the 16 Charisma....

In Lion & Dragon, Charisma modifies your base saving throw, and your results when rolling on Critical hit tables. Because charismatic people tend to be lucky.