Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 12, 2021, 11:06:35 AM
There's no reason (nor a way) to make everything 50/50. Except by force, forcing people to do shit they don't want to do in the name of equality.

Well, we've seen the attempt to convince people that the disparity is primarily due to some kind of -ism in the existing fanbase.

But yeah, that attempt has failed to produce any results. As pointed out, nerd hobbies going mainstream did that heavy lifting.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 12, 2021, 05:21:26 AM

Quote from: DoctorGlocktor on November 12, 2021, 05:06:00 AM
I couldn't agree more. We don't want or need these people in the hobby. We need more gatekeeping.

This why I'd like to see very clear demarcation between the two factions.

Let the dweebs and gimps have as many pronouns, wheelchairs, forced diversitaay or whatever as they want. That's fine! Just stay away from anyone who just wants to play and enjoy their games.

Thing is, we empower those companies by buying their material. The red list has been a great way to sterilize the hobby (for us at least)  . Don't give these peeps your money. Make sure it goes to the creators/companies you want to flourish.

And let the other little bed wetters of the hobby have their own little corner to piss in. Fook 'em!

Greetings!

*Laughing* "Fook 'em" is right, my friend! Very true. I agree. We need to gatekeep these whining jackasses hard. I just love that. For anyone that thinks the use of special fucking pronouns is a good thing, why would we want such people in our hobby? And, well, we certainly do not need them in our hobby, either.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 12, 2021, 11:02:29 AM

The norms of language are dictated by majority use, only a very small percentage of the population uses those "new norms". Nope, they are virtue signaling as proven by their convention document.

The norms of colloquial language use and the standards of formal, professional language are not the same thing.

I write and edit user manuals for a living. We follow professional standards. And the standards DCC are adopting have become the norm in the professional world today. Not just in college HR policies, but in corporate and industrial communications. If Goodman handed their books to some random contractor to edit, the text would likely come back with 'they' employed as a singular pronoun.

Which doesn't mean Goodman isn't engaging in virtue signalling by making a big deal about it. But anyone who thinks using 'they' as a singular pronoun is fringe or going away is mistaken. It's already standard usage in dictionaries, style guides, and the corporate world.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 12, 2021, 11:58:59 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 12, 2021, 11:06:35 AM
There's no reason (nor a way) to make everything 50/50. Except by force, forcing people to do shit they don't want to do in the name of equality.

Well, we've seen the attempt to convince people that the disparity is primarily due to some kind of -ism in the existing fanbase.

But yeah, that attempt has failed to produce any results. As pointed out, nerd hobbies going mainstream did that heavy lifting.

Yeah, and pointing to facts/reality makes you an istophobe.

If the woketards really wanted to have more people of group X playing/developing RPGs they would run games for poor people of group X and later donate the books/dice to the players so they can keep on playing without them. But then they wouldn't be woketards.

Not a single dickhead here has been able to say how are they going to overcome the cultural pressure among the black community against certain activities that are regarded as "acting white".

That's black people gatekeeping other black people from partaking on those activities because somehow that's "acting white".

Even the racist and race grifter Tanahesi Coates says he grew up playing D&D, but then again I don't think he grew up in the inner city.

But tackling the real gatekeepers means tackling what to them must be aking to black on black crime. And the other woketards that seem to think that telling everybody that going to your LGS as a woman will get you at least rejected and at worst raped will somehow increase the number of women in the hobby.

And if their retarded tactics fail it's because of those evul muhhsoggyknerds.

Double down on the retarded tactics, rinse and repeat ad infinitum.

Quote from: Haffrung on November 12, 2021, 12:11:34 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 12, 2021, 11:02:29 AM

The norms of language are dictated by majority use, only a very small percentage of the population uses those "new norms". Nope, they are virtue signaling as proven by their convention document.

The norms of colloquial language use and the standards of formal, professional language are not the same thing.

I write and edit user manuals for a living. We follow professional standards. And the standards DCC are adopting have become the norm in the professional world today. Not just in college HR policies, but in corporate and industrial communications. If Goodman handed their books to some random contractor to edit, the text would likely come back with 'they' employed as a singular pronoun.

Which doesn't mean Goodman isn't engaging in virtue signalling by making a big deal about it. But anyone who thinks using 'they' as a singular pronoun is fringe or going away is mistaken. It's already standard usage in dictionaries, style guides, and the corporate world.

Because the "professional world" lacks brains and balls. Professional norms are derived from colloqial norms regarding writing. Which is why you write a manual in such a way a layman would understand it and not in technical jargon.

But do keep trying to deny reality.

Quote from: SHARK on November 12, 2021, 12:07:58 PMWe need to gatekeep these whining jackasses hard.

Just write biological determinism into your rules and use neutral male pronouns and they'll gatekeep themselves it seems.

Quote from: mightybrain on November 12, 2021, 12:34:30 PM

Quote from: SHARK on November 12, 2021, 12:07:58 PMWe need to gatekeep these whining jackasses hard.

Just write biological determinism into your rules and use neutral male pronouns and they'll gatekeep themselves it seems.

So, racial modifiers and write as we have always done. They won't buy my stuff for sure, doesn't mean they'll shut the fuck up, not until the big boys get some balls and start telling them to go fuck themselves.

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 04:59:00 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:43:29 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 04:34:23 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:29:37 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 04:14:03 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:10:48 PM

Quote from: Ruprecht on November 11, 2021, 04:09:14 PM
It really depends upon how they re-write the sentences. With a little effort it isn't all that hard to remove he/she without using They. .

The question is : Why should anyone HAVE TO do even that "little effort"?

Why is that the question? I don't think anyone believes that Goodman games is doing this against their will. They want to do this, and that's all that really matters. Now, you don't have to buy it if you don't like it, but asking why they have to do this is really the wrong question.

That MIGHT be true of Gooperson games (I doubt it since when they start virtue signaling is to hide something). But the bigger picture necesitates that question answered.

So far the only "answers" provided have been "Muh Inclusivity!" and "Muh Representashun!". But never has it been proven that not doing so really stops anyone from joining a hobby.

If those "arguments" held any water you'd find that not a single straight white male would enjoy Wonder Woman, Black Panther, Shang Chi (the original good comics not the BS new ones or the movie), etc.

The same is true of TTRPGs, why is it that in HispanoAmerica the most popular game is vanilla D&D and not something like Maztica?

That is the underlying question that needs to be answered and so far it hasn't been.

Feel free to disagree, I can't force you to be right and I lack the time/interest to try and convince you of anything.

You're (general you, for many in the thread) the ones needing it answered. They (Goodman and others making such changes) obviously don't feel that need. This is then about you, not them.

Actually this is about those demanding such changes but you can keep pretending you don't know that.

What I see here are many demanding others don't make such changes, or at the least denouncing those that do make such choices. If you're going to complain when someone picks a side you don't agree with, you need to realize that you've contributed to hyping up the issue too by virtue/vice-signaling of your own. Try live and let live.

It's funny how this bullshit claim is always given by people on the left directed to people on the right, when it's convenient. While they wait until they can criminally enforce "Silence is Violence".

Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 05:33:24 PM

Quote from: 1989 on November 11, 2021, 05:17:25 PM
Here are some money quotes from the DCC con guidelines: https://goodman-games.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/DCO-Policies.pdf

"This policy was based on the existing XOXO Community Code of Conduct, which is itself based on resources provided by Geek Feminism, and borrows heavily from similar open source policies authored by JSConf AU and Django."

>> Feminism

"Offensive comments related to gender, gender identity and expression, sexual orientation, disability, mental illness, neurotype, physical appearance, body, age, race, ethnicity, nationality, language, or religion"

>> Neurotype? WTF

"Deliberate use of incorrect name or pronouns, including misgendering

"Respect player pronouns and character pronouns; routinely reaffirm these throughout play and at the start of each session"

>> Pronouns. Jordan Peterson, you are not welcome here!

"Respect player autonomy and practice regular check-ins to affirm enthusiastic agreement of game development"

>> Regular check-ins to affirm enthusiastic agreement of game development. Wow. DCC is so old school.

DCC is a big joke!

I for one appreciate they going full woke in such a public fashion, saves me money. Never buying anything from them again and Occule should move them to Red.

Except they're not doing it very publicly. Goodman is hoping to play both sides, making very carefully directed social media posts declaring their allegiance to Pol Pot School Social Justice, while on their main advertising areas and general postings they still act like they're just hardcore badass gaming for regular gamers.

Which is why various lefties are on here demanding we shut up or trying to convince us it's all silly and doesn't matter so pretty please don't keep drawing attention to this.

Because if it gets repeated over and over again, what Goodman has declared they believe in now, they will face a backlash from regular gamers, and we all know the SJW gamers will give a lot of tweets of support but not buy a damn thing, because they never actually wanted to play DCC (they just wanted DCC as it was to cease to exist).  So if their new commitment to radical terrorist leftism is made clear, they'll either bankrupt themselves or they'll disavow their statements ("the con guidelines were the actions of a single employee etc etc").

Quote from: Haffrung on November 12, 2021, 06:15:50 AM

Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 04:36:33 PM
In general, English isn't closely prescribed - and usage will vary, especially in conversation and non-formal writing like fiction and RPGs.

RPG books are rules documents - a kind of formal writing. Any professional writers, editors, and publishers worth their salt adhere to a style guide. Something like the Chicago Manual of Style. And 'they' as a singular pronoun is increasingly being recognized in professional style guides. The last three companies I've worked for - two of them oil and gas companies - did not use gendered pronouns in their documentation.

Goodman are doing nothing more than adopting the new norms of language. It might satisfy the tribal allegiances of some here if DCC defied those norms. But it's a businesses trying to meet market and professional standards, not a political actor flying the flag of some faction of fandom.

Their Con guidelines beg to differ. They're apparently proudly flying the flag of "geek feminism" and "player autonomy" (ie. Forge bullshit where players get veto power over the GM).

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 03:40:24 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 04:59:00 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:43:29 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 04:34:23 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:29:37 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 04:14:03 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:10:48 PM

Quote from: Ruprecht on November 11, 2021, 04:09:14 PM
It really depends upon how they re-write the sentences. With a little effort it isn't all that hard to remove he/she without using They. .

The question is : Why should anyone HAVE TO do even that "little effort"?

Why is that the question? I don't think anyone believes that Goodman games is doing this against their will. They want to do this, and that's all that really matters. Now, you don't have to buy it if you don't like it, but asking why they have to do this is really the wrong question.

That MIGHT be true of Gooperson games (I doubt it since when they start virtue signaling is to hide something). But the bigger picture necesitates that question answered.

So far the only "answers" provided have been "Muh Inclusivity!" and "Muh Representashun!". But never has it been proven that not doing so really stops anyone from joining a hobby.

If those "arguments" held any water you'd find that not a single straight white male would enjoy Wonder Woman, Black Panther, Shang Chi (the original good comics not the BS new ones or the movie), etc.

The same is true of TTRPGs, why is it that in HispanoAmerica the most popular game is vanilla D&D and not something like Maztica?

That is the underlying question that needs to be answered and so far it hasn't been.

Feel free to disagree, I can't force you to be right and I lack the time/interest to try and convince you of anything.

You're (general you, for many in the thread) the ones needing it answered. They (Goodman and others making such changes) obviously don't feel that need. This is then about you, not them.

Actually this is about those demanding such changes but you can keep pretending you don't know that.

What I see here are many demanding others don't make such changes, or at the least denouncing those that do make such choices. If you're going to complain when someone picks a side you don't agree with, you need to realize that you've contributed to hyping up the issue too by virtue/vice-signaling of your own. Try live and let live.

It's funny how this bullshit claim is always given by people on the left directed to people on the right, when it's convenient. While they wait until they can criminally enforce "Silence is Violence".

Are you suggesting I'm planning to do that? If so, you're quite wrong. But, by all means, stick to character.

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 03:51:10 PM

Quote from: Haffrung on November 12, 2021, 06:15:50 AM

Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 04:36:33 PM
In general, English isn't closely prescribed - and usage will vary, especially in conversation and non-formal writing like fiction and RPGs.

RPG books are rules documents - a kind of formal writing. Any professional writers, editors, and publishers worth their salt adhere to a style guide. Something like the Chicago Manual of Style. And 'they' as a singular pronoun is increasingly being recognized in professional style guides. The last three companies I've worked for - two of them oil and gas companies - did not use gendered pronouns in their documentation.

Goodman are doing nothing more than adopting the new norms of language. It might satisfy the tribal allegiances of some here if DCC defied those norms. But it's a businesses trying to meet market and professional standards, not a political actor flying the flag of some faction of fandom.

Their Con guidelines beg to differ. They're apparently proudly flying the flag of "geek feminism" and "player autonomy" (ie. Forge bullshit where players get veto power over the GM).

Players always have a degree of veto power over the GM. They can choose not to play, and if enough of them choose that, the GM now has a playerless game. The players can then put together the game they want, and if the GM is too much of an ass about the whole thing, they might not be invited to join. That applies beyond games too...there's a degree of veto power in almost any social group activity.

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 03:52:21 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 03:40:24 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 04:59:00 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:43:29 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 04:34:23 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:29:37 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 04:14:03 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:10:48 PM

Quote from: Ruprecht on November 11, 2021, 04:09:14 PM
It really depends upon how they re-write the sentences. With a little effort it isn't all that hard to remove he/she without using They. .

The question is : Why should anyone HAVE TO do even that "little effort"?

Why is that the question? I don't think anyone believes that Goodman games is doing this against their will. They want to do this, and that's all that really matters. Now, you don't have to buy it if you don't like it, but asking why they have to do this is really the wrong question.

That MIGHT be true of Gooperson games (I doubt it since when they start virtue signaling is to hide something). But the bigger picture necesitates that question answered.

So far the only "answers" provided have been "Muh Inclusivity!" and "Muh Representashun!". But never has it been proven that not doing so really stops anyone from joining a hobby.

If those "arguments" held any water you'd find that not a single straight white male would enjoy Wonder Woman, Black Panther, Shang Chi (the original good comics not the BS new ones or the movie), etc.

The same is true of TTRPGs, why is it that in HispanoAmerica the most popular game is vanilla D&D and not something like Maztica?

That is the underlying question that needs to be answered and so far it hasn't been.

Feel free to disagree, I can't force you to be right and I lack the time/interest to try and convince you of anything.

You're (general you, for many in the thread) the ones needing it answered. They (Goodman and others making such changes) obviously don't feel that need. This is then about you, not them.

Actually this is about those demanding such changes but you can keep pretending you don't know that.

What I see here are many demanding others don't make such changes, or at the least denouncing those that do make such choices. If you're going to complain when someone picks a side you don't agree with, you need to realize that you've contributed to hyping up the issue too by virtue/vice-signaling of your own. Try live and let live.

It's funny how this bullshit claim is always given by people on the left directed to people on the right, when it's convenient. While they wait until they can criminally enforce "Silence is Violence".

Are you suggesting I'm planning to do that? If so, you're quite wrong. But, by all means, stick to character.

I'm saying you're here, arguing against traditional gaming to regular gamers, not arguing over in left-wing forums at communist gamers about why they should stop trying to ruin the hobby.  And worse, you're  here making your argument in an utterly transparently-fake "what's the big deal? So why do  you care? I obviously don't care; I'm here talking about this in every thread trying to convince or shame people into not fighting back against the Leftist deconstruction of society in every single thread, but I totally don't care even a little". It's an insult that you think anyone here can't see through that.

I think what side you want winning is pretty fucking clear.

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 03:55:22 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 03:51:10 PM

Quote from: Haffrung on November 12, 2021, 06:15:50 AM

Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 04:36:33 PM
In general, English isn't closely prescribed - and usage will vary, especially in conversation and non-formal writing like fiction and RPGs.

RPG books are rules documents - a kind of formal writing. Any professional writers, editors, and publishers worth their salt adhere to a style guide. Something like the Chicago Manual of Style. And 'they' as a singular pronoun is increasingly being recognized in professional style guides. The last three companies I've worked for - two of them oil and gas companies - did not use gendered pronouns in their documentation.

Goodman are doing nothing more than adopting the new norms of language. It might satisfy the tribal allegiances of some here if DCC defied those norms. But it's a businesses trying to meet market and professional standards, not a political actor flying the flag of some faction of fandom.

Their Con guidelines beg to differ. They're apparently proudly flying the flag of "geek feminism" and "player autonomy" (ie. Forge bullshit where players get veto power over the GM).

Players always have a degree of veto power over the GM. They can choose not to play, and if enough of them choose that, the GM now has a playerless game. The players can then put together the game they want, and if the GM is too much of an ass about the whole thing, they might not be invited to join. That applies beyond games too...there's a degree of veto power in almost any social group activity.

That is very clearly not what they mean here. What they mean here is that any player can stop the game at any time and make any kind of demand about things that should be taken out or put into the game or that the GM change a ruling for any reason, because this is a "collaborative storytelling game" run by the players, not the GM and he doesn't have the authority to do anything without the player's "consent".

Which is all bullshit. The one and ONLY "right" that a player has at the table is the right to walk away whenever they like. That's the entire nature of the social contract in a regular gaming table.

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 03:58:59 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 03:52:21 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 03:40:24 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 04:59:00 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:43:29 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 04:34:23 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:29:37 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 04:14:03 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:10:48 PM

Quote from: Ruprecht on November 11, 2021, 04:09:14 PM
It really depends upon how they re-write the sentences. With a little effort it isn't all that hard to remove he/she without using They. .

The question is : Why should anyone HAVE TO do even that "little effort"?

Why is that the question? I don't think anyone believes that Goodman games is doing this against their will. They want to do this, and that's all that really matters. Now, you don't have to buy it if you don't like it, but asking why they have to do this is really the wrong question.

That MIGHT be true of Gooperson games (I doubt it since when they start virtue signaling is to hide something). But the bigger picture necesitates that question answered.

So far the only "answers" provided have been "Muh Inclusivity!" and "Muh Representashun!". But never has it been proven that not doing so really stops anyone from joining a hobby.

If those "arguments" held any water you'd find that not a single straight white male would enjoy Wonder Woman, Black Panther, Shang Chi (the original good comics not the BS new ones or the movie), etc.

The same is true of TTRPGs, why is it that in HispanoAmerica the most popular game is vanilla D&D and not something like Maztica?

That is the underlying question that needs to be answered and so far it hasn't been.

Feel free to disagree, I can't force you to be right and I lack the time/interest to try and convince you of anything.

You're (general you, for many in the thread) the ones needing it answered. They (Goodman and others making such changes) obviously don't feel that need. This is then about you, not them.

Actually this is about those demanding such changes but you can keep pretending you don't know that.

What I see here are many demanding others don't make such changes, or at the least denouncing those that do make such choices. If you're going to complain when someone picks a side you don't agree with, you need to realize that you've contributed to hyping up the issue too by virtue/vice-signaling of your own. Try live and let live.

It's funny how this bullshit claim is always given by people on the left directed to people on the right, when it's convenient. While they wait until they can criminally enforce "Silence is Violence".

Are you suggesting I'm planning to do that? If so, you're quite wrong. But, by all means, stick to character.

I'm saying you're here, arguing against traditional gaming to regular gamers, not arguing over in left-wing forums at communist gamers about why they should stop trying to ruin the hobby.  And worse, you're  here making your argument in an utterly transparently-fake "what's the big deal? So why do  you care? I obviously don't care; I'm here talking about this in every thread trying to convince or shame people into not fighting back against the Leftist deconstruction of society in every single thread, but I totally don't care even a little". It's an insult that you think anyone here can't see through that.

I think what side you want winning is pretty fucking clear.

I don't see "sides" the same way you do, and I don't think anyone is "winning" by fanning the burning shit heaps that get made of even the tiniest issues that arise. But you make money from it all, so I get why you're so into spritzing kerosene onto the tiniest embers. You do you.