I just watched the video "Maw of the Mike" where they talk about DCCRPG becoming more inclusive by changing all pronouns to they in not just all future products but going back through the entire back catalog as well to make changes to be more inclusive.
They want to be less inclusive in their games and only be for leftists that's fine by me, my friends and I can move on to a different game.
I saw that video too. Goodman Games just made it very easy to not buy any of their new products.
Another one bites the dust.
Not surprised. There's been small hints leading up to this.
It's a small change, and I'm not going to burn my copy of DCC over it. But it is a stupid change, and a prelude to a company becoming the kind of groveling shitheads who knock themselves out over activist demands at the cost of making decent RPGs.
If that's the worst thing they do, I can live with it. When they start changing the actual gameplay or apologize for their evil orcs, then I'll get worried.
Agree. Most of designers are leftist these days. But there is difference between that and WOKE.
Like in wishing to kill unWoke or make public statements about not needing unWoke money.
Quote from: World_Warrior on November 10, 2021, 06:38:41 AM
If that's the worst thing they do, I can live with it. When they start changing the actual gameplay or apologize for their evil orcs, then I'll get worried.
Its still an agenda platform and will likely infect more with the woke disease that will become a problem sooner or later. And keep in mind this can and will be used to force others into compliance wherever they think they can get away with it. And unfortunately all too often people will knuckle under rather than resist because the threat of being attacked is increasingly real.
That's the battlefield that can be fought mostly by wallets I think.
There is some diagram of wokeness vs quality and everyone has to answer where those line cross for him to make point of no longer supporting.
Quote from: World_Warrior on November 10, 2021, 06:38:41 AM
If that's the worst thing they do, I can live with it. When they start changing the actual gameplay or apologize for their evil orcs, then I'll get worried.
That's where I am at. I don't know if changing pronouns will bring more women into DCC, but it seems innocuous. That said, it does have the potential to be a step onto the slippery slope.
If they do go woke, I will just keep playing with the materials that I have in-hand. Beyond the rules, my GG/DCC purchases have been more to support the company that out of a real need for game material.
And it would be interesting to see how they would square the circle of Appendix N and woke.
Quote from: dkabq on November 10, 2021, 07:18:46 AMThat's where I am at. I don't know if changing pronouns will bring more women into DCC, but it seems innocuous. That said, it does have the potential to be a step onto the slippery slope.
Any woman, or guy for that matter, that will only play a game if it uses politically correct pronouns isn't a person you would want to join your game or hobby in the first place.
It calls to mind this passage in the
Rules CyclopediaQuotePronoun Note
The male pronouns (he, him, his) are used throughout this book. We hope this won't be interpreted by anyone as an attempt to exclude females from the game or to imply their exclusion.
Centuries of use have made these pronouns neutral, and we feel their use provides for clear and concise written text.
I wonder if the editors realised at the time that this would be the first slippery step.
The male pronouns (he, him, his) have been used for centuries as neutral gender. If this gets your panties in a bunch, man up!
As a society, we probably deserve ruination if we are unable to have enough backbone to hear the demands of activists acting like petulant children and either ignoring them or laughing in their faces (a response of "Go fuck yourself" works well too.)
From the moment the first business caved in when confronted with Jesse Jackson's or Al Sharpton's extortion, to the trembling in their $2000 shoes of politicians at the ridiculous demands of Greta Thunberg - it all leads to people acting like children throwing tantrums at every turn.
We need responsible adults to respond to these demands with the equivalent of the backhand to them mouth, or dad getting his belt... Whether that means public humiliation of these SJWs, more Kenosha Hat Tricks, whatever. Very few are willing and able to do so.
Quote from: mightybrain on November 10, 2021, 07:57:09 AM
It calls to mind this passage in the Rules Cyclopedia
QuotePronoun Note
The male pronouns (he, him, his) are used throughout this book. We hope this won't be interpreted by anyone as an attempt to exclude females from the game or to imply their exclusion.
Centuries of use have made these pronouns neutral, and we feel their use provides for clear and concise written text.
I wonder if the editors realised at the time that this would be the first slippery step.
The male pronouns (he, him, his) have been used for centuries as neutral gender. If this gets your panties in a bunch, man up!
IMO, using "they" is a nothing burger in the larger view. It's the most gender neutral pronoun we have.
If they start using Xe or some crap, then I'd be concerned.
Quote from: mightybrain on November 10, 2021, 07:57:09 AM
It calls to mind this passage in the Rules Cyclopedia
QuotePronoun Note
The male pronouns (he, him, his) are used throughout this book. We hope this won't be interpreted by anyone as an attempt to exclude females from the game or to imply their exclusion.
Centuries of use have made these pronouns neutral, and we feel their use provides for clear and concise written text.
I wonder if the editors realised at the time that this would be the first slippery step.
The male pronouns (he, him, his) have been used for centuries as neutral gender. If this gets your panties in a bunch, man up!
They and them are plural pronouns - anyone who wants you use these words to refer to a single person is essentially stating "there is more than one of me." Having multiple personalities is a mental disorder, last I recall
Quote from: 3catcircus on November 10, 2021, 08:13:50 AM
As a society, we probably deserve ruination if we are unable to have enough backbone to hear the demands of activists acting like petulant children and either ignoring them or laughing in their faces (a response of "Go fuck yourself" works well too.)
From the moment the first business caved in when confronted with Jesse Jackson's or Al Sharpton's extortion, to the trembling in their $2000 shoes of politicians at the ridiculous demands of Greta Thunberg - it all leads to people acting like children throwing tantrums at every turn.
We need responsible adults to respond to these demands with the equivalent of the backhand to them mouth, or dad getting his belt... Whether that means public humiliation of these SJWs, more Kenosha Hat Tricks, whatever. Very few are willing and able to do so.
Sadly, I have to concur. But it's easy to forget that sometimes, standing firm is hard.
People forget how much bullshit Jackson and Sharpton got away with. Sharpton, in fact, has his finances arranged in such a way that it's impossible to enforce civil judgements against him -- legally, he has no assets or income. There are at least two civil judgements that have yet to extract a dime (one from the Tawana Brawley case, the other relating back to the Crown Heights riots IIRC).
And back in their heyday -- this was pre-Internet, too! -- they were GOOD at their scam. Sidle up to a company, comment about how they needed more 'minority representation', and casually infer a threat of boycotts and protests. Jackson's star only fell once he got caught knocking up one of his subordinates in Rainbow PUSH; Sharpton is still around, like a cockroach with 20 points of damage reduction.
Getting back to the subject at hand though, normally this would not bother me. What DOES bother me is that they go out of their way to talk about it, instead of just writing future books to use 'they' or alternating 'he' and 'she'. Which says to me 'look at us! look how sensitive we are!'.
QuoteThey and them are plural pronouns - anyone who wants you use these words to refer to a single person is essentially stating "there is more than one of me." Having multiple personalities is a mental disorder, last I recall
I'm not English native speaker but I'm quite sure I've read using singular they as gender neutral/gender unknown is centuries old form in English, and is way older than any multiple-personality-disorder woke bullshit.
It was funny how they pointed out themselves in this same press announcement that their books were being printed in China and shipped over and will be way behind time-wise.
They care so much about humans they use the largest killer of humans on the planet to print their books!
Also, the same place where it's a crime to be the type of human being to want to call yourself They.
Quote from: Wrath of God on November 10, 2021, 08:28:11 AM
QuoteThey and them are plural pronouns - anyone who wants you use these words to refer to a single person is essentially stating "there is more than one of me." Having multiple personalities is a mental disorder, last I recall
I'm not English native speaker but I'm quite sure I've read using singular they as gender neutral/gender unknown is centuries old form in English, and is way older than any multiple-personality-disorder woke bullshit.
If using in the third person. What these nuts want is for you to refer to them (see what I just did there?) using "they/them" in the first person.
Quote from: Wrath of God on November 10, 2021, 08:28:11 AM
I'm not English native speaker but I'm quite sure I've read using singular they as gender neutral/gender unknown is centuries old form in English, and is way older than any multiple-personality-disorder woke bullshit.
I
am a native English speaker, and I promise that anyone who wrote this is as full of bullshit as DCC is.
"They" is plural in English. Anyone telling you otherwise is already playing the Woke game.
Quote from: Zalman on November 10, 2021, 08:55:21 AM
Quote from: Wrath of God on November 10, 2021, 08:28:11 AM
I'm not English native speaker but I'm quite sure I've read using singular they as gender neutral/gender unknown is centuries old form in English, and is way older than any multiple-personality-disorder woke bullshit.
I am a native English speaker, and I promise that anyone who wrote this is as full of bullshit as DCC is.
"They" is plural in English. Anyone telling you otherwise is already playing the Woke game.
That's funny, because so am I, and 'they' can be used as a generalized singular.
But why complain? If THEY want to be dehumanized, that's THEIR decision, right?
Quote from: Wrath of God on November 10, 2021, 08:28:11 AM
QuoteThey and them are plural pronouns - anyone who wants you use these words to refer to a single person is essentially stating "there is more than one of me." Having multiple personalities is a mental disorder, last I recall
I'm not English native speaker but I'm quite sure I've read using singular they as gender neutral/gender unknown is centuries old form in English, and is way older than any multiple-personality-disorder woke bullshit.
That's the argument that gets used. And it's fine if you live in centuries old england. But we don't. And they/them is currently used as a plural, and using it as a gender neutral term gets confusing fast.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 10, 2021, 08:59:18 AM
Quote from: Zalman on November 10, 2021, 08:55:21 AM
Quote from: Wrath of God on November 10, 2021, 08:28:11 AM
I'm not English native speaker but I'm quite sure I've read using singular they as gender neutral/gender unknown is centuries old form in English, and is way older than any multiple-personality-disorder woke bullshit.
I am a native English speaker, and I promise that anyone who wrote this is as full of bullshit as DCC is.
"They" is plural in English. Anyone telling you otherwise is already playing the Woke game.
That's funny, because so am I, and 'they' can be used as a generalized singular.
But why complain? If THEY want to be dehumanized, that's THEIR decision, right?
The generalized form means that singular
example is representative of the general
group.
You can argue semantically that's not the same as "plural", but it's also not even close to the non-generalized, individual form being discussed here.
I don't like woke-ness at all. And I think anyone who feels like they have a "non binary gender" or xe/xem/xer/zipper pronouns should be institutionalized and deprogrammed. BUT! I do think using "they/them" when writing a book can make sense for writing examples of what would happen to explain how mechanics work if you are talking about generalized cases that apply to all characters of a certain class. Like... "if a thief wants to attempt X, they would roll 1d20 and add their DEX modifier". I will say it does bother me a little bit when I see explanations of character or class mechanics with female pronouns, and that is a personal failing of mine, so maybe it bothers some women to see male pronouns. I don't have a problem with the gender neutral, if it is written to make sense as generalized plural for all characters of a certain race or class. When used as a "non-binary" specific singular character then that is kinda creepy.
Quote from: Godsmonkey on November 10, 2021, 08:19:27 AM
Quote from: mightybrain on November 10, 2021, 07:57:09 AM
It calls to mind this passage in the Rules Cyclopedia
QuotePronoun Note
The male pronouns (he, him, his) are used throughout this book. We hope this won't be interpreted by anyone as an attempt to exclude females from the game or to imply their exclusion.
Centuries of use have made these pronouns neutral, and we feel their use provides for clear and concise written text.
I wonder if the editors realised at the time that this would be the first slippery step.
The male pronouns (he, him, his) have been used for centuries as neutral gender. If this gets your panties in a bunch, man up!
IMO, using "they" is a nothing burger in the larger view. It's the most gender neutral pronoun we have.
If they start using Xe or some crap, then I'd be concerned.
I'd prefer Xe to They. At least Xe is singular. They is not a singular word and people forcing it into our language to be a term for gender neutral shows the corruption happening to our language and society. It's also an insult ... You're not a he or a she, you're one of Them. There is no individuity there.
Quote from: Banjo Destructo on November 10, 2021, 09:12:51 AM
I don't like woke-ness at all. And I think anyone who feels like they have a "non binary gender" or xe/xem/xer/zipper pronouns should be institutionalized and deprogrammed. BUT! I do think using "they/them" when writing a book can make sense for writing examples of what would happen to explain how mechanics work if you are talking about generalized cases that apply to all characters of a certain class. Like... "if a thief wants to attempt X, they would roll 1d20 and add their DEX modifier". I will say it does bother me a little bit when I see explanations of character or class mechanics with female pronouns, and that is a personal failing of mine, so maybe it bothers some women to see male pronouns. I don't have a problem with the gender neutral, if it is written to make sense as generalized plural for all characters of a certain race or class. When used as a "non-binary" specific singular character then that is kinda creepy.
If your example read "When thieves want to attempt X, they would roll 1d20 and add their DEX modifier" is how it would be grammatically correct. For your example to work, you'd have to replace they with he or she.
All of these examples of people forcing they as a gender could easily be rectified and made to make more sense with just a little bit of common sense and honest editing.
Quote from: Ka'arl Sorcerer of Cha'alt on November 10, 2021, 08:29:18 AM
It was funny how they pointed out themselves in this same press announcement that their books were being printed in China and shipped over and will be way behind time-wise.
They care so much about humans they use the largest killer of humans on the planet to print their books!
Also, the same place where it's a crime to be the type of human being to want to call yourself They.
Dammit. That's a shame. I won't be buying anything else from them. How do other publishers afford to print in the US, Germany, etc. (/sarcasm)? I just did a sampling of my shelf and many very good and reasonably priced books are printed in the free world.
The pronoun thing is ridiculous, too. The most elegant solution to this "problem" that I saw was a book that alternated between "he" and "she" in different sections. Change to "they" if you must, but don't go through your back catalog and cleanse things. Spend that energy finding a decent free-world printer.
Quote from: RebelSky on November 10, 2021, 10:15:05 AM
Quote from: Godsmonkey on November 10, 2021, 08:19:27 AM
Quote from: mightybrain on November 10, 2021, 07:57:09 AM
It calls to mind this passage in the Rules Cyclopedia
QuotePronoun Note
The male pronouns (he, him, his) are used throughout this book. We hope this won't be interpreted by anyone as an attempt to exclude females from the game or to imply their exclusion.
Centuries of use have made these pronouns neutral, and we feel their use provides for clear and concise written text.
I wonder if the editors realised at the time that this would be the first slippery step.
The male pronouns (he, him, his) have been used for centuries as neutral gender. If this gets your panties in a bunch, man up!
IMO, using "they" is a nothing burger in the larger view. It's the most gender neutral pronoun we have.
If they start using Xe or some crap, then I'd be concerned.
I'd prefer Xe to They. At least Xe is singular. They is not a singular word and people forcing it into our language to be a term for gender neutral shows the corruption happening to our language and society. It's also an insult ... You're not a he or a she, you're one of Them. There is no individuity there.
(https://resizing.flixster.com/R2G2CI43jT6U_NaNFt4iFBKRP0A=/206x305/v2/https://flxt.tmsimg.com/assets/p11240_p_v10_ac.jpg)
Quote from: mightybrain on November 10, 2021, 07:57:09 AM
It calls to mind this passage in the Rules Cyclopedia
QuotePronoun Note
The male pronouns (he, him, his) are used throughout this book. We hope this won't be interpreted by anyone as an attempt to exclude females from the game or to imply their exclusion.
Centuries of use have made these pronouns neutral, and we feel their use provides for clear and concise written text.
I wonder if the editors realised at the time that this would be the first slippery step.
The male pronouns (he, him, his) have been used for centuries as neutral gender. If this gets your panties in a bunch, man up!
Stealing this!
The idea that an OSR product would attempt to appeal to something directly opposed to their target market boggles my mind. Older been tend to be more conservative and they're usually the ones who play OSR. Unless I'm wrong in that regard, but I don't think I am.
That's like trying to market guns to Californians or pork to Muslims. Or beef to Hindus. Or Televisions to the Amish.
I could go on for a while but I think you get the point.
Quote from: PsyXypher on November 10, 2021, 11:00:03 AM
The idea that an OSR product would attempt to appeal to something directly opposed to their target market boggles my mind. Older been tend to be more conservative and they're usually the ones who play OSR. Unless I'm wrong in that regard, but I don't think I am.
That's like trying to market guns to Californians or pork to Muslims. Or beef to Hindus. Or Televisions to the Amish.
I could go on for a while but I think you get the point.
Remember they supported Burn Loot Murder too. This is the second red flag.
And I'm out!
Quote from: PsyXypher on November 10, 2021, 11:00:03 AM
The idea that an OSR product would attempt to appeal to something directly opposed to their target market boggles my mind.
It's not just an OSR game, it's a game that is trying to emulate the art, rules, and writing style of the 1980s. This change goes against the core aesthetic that the game is trying to get across.
The game is literally called "Classic".
I have coworker who uses "they." Consequently, I always refer to this person by name. I also talk to this person directly using "you," which for some reason is okay. "You" has traditionally been used to refer to males and females, so I'm not sure how that's not offensive to this person. But what do I know? I'm just a regular guy. Shrug.
Third person pronouns are placeholders to avoid repeating more descriptive words, such as "player," "Jimbo," and "that asshole over there." They are stylistic fluff. What a weak ass hill to die on.
QuoteIf using in the third person. What these nuts want is for you to refer to them (see what I just did there?) using "they/them" in the first person.
I'm quite sure that's not the point of DCC. They use singular "they" for third person to describe GM's, PC's and players actions within gameplay, specifically as neutral form.
Now sure there are various
individuals calling themselves enby, that tries to use as their defult pronoun singular or plural, but tbh even then I'm quite sure they (sic!) do not use it in first place.
All those xirs/zens/hshes and others still use I AM in first person. At least I've not yet found one doing otherwise, though sheer amount of lunacy points they exist.
QuoteI am a native English speaker, and I promise that anyone who wrote this is as full of bullshit as DCC is.
"They" is plural in English. Anyone telling you otherwise is already playing the Woke game.
Well Wiki claims otherwise, and I must say given examples of utterly non-pronoun use they points out - I'm quite sure that's form I was taught to use. In 90's, in Poland, so rather without much woke influence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they
I am a native English speaker, and I promise that anyone who wrote this is as full of bullshit as DCC is.
QuoteBut why complain? If THEY want to be dehumanized, that's THEIR decision, right?
;D Indeed. Funny enough in Polish there is impersonal form of verbs, it lacks any pronoun and it's built in a way that something was done, but no Subject is given.
There's sci-fi novel written in 1st person which is in 80% written like this, after narrator lose faith in his own existence as essentialy separate subject. ;)
QuoteThat's the argument that gets used. And it's fine if you live in centuries old england. But we don't.
Check Wiki link above - those forms does not sounds like some old English.
QuoteThe generalized form means that singular example is representative of the general group.
Which fits excellently for abbreviated players and GM's in description of gameplay in RPG book. Because singular they-GM is representative of general GM's. Example.
And it somehow sounds good... so I'm not really that fond of abandoning proper form to avoid association with woke.
(No one can argue that DCC while using this form properly, do it for nefarious reasons, and that's highly likely - but there is question how contrarian do we want to get. If we went too far anti-woke gonna be just as ludicrous parody as woke)
QuoteConsequently, I always refer to this person by name. I also talk to this person directly using "you," which for some reason is okay. "You" has traditionally been used to refer to males and females, so I'm not sure how that's not offensive to this person. But what do I know? I'm just a regular guy. Shrug.
You is second person, and second and first person are not gendered in Indoeuropean languages. There is just one form regardless. All push for pronouns is linked to 3rd person.
I never bought DCC to begin with because the designer was a leftist.
Oh. And Mike is a cuck.
What pronoun pattern did DCCRPG use previously, out of curiousity? Did it "he or she" for generic people like original AD&D? Or something else?
Quote from: Wrath of God on November 10, 2021, 11:46:48 AM
QuoteConsequently, I always refer to this person by name. I also talk to this person directly using "you," which for some reason is okay. "You" has traditionally been used to refer to males and females, so I'm not sure how that's not offensive to this person. But what do I know? I'm just a regular guy. Shrug.
You is second person, and second and first person are not gendered in Indoeuropean languages. There is just one form regardless. All push for pronouns is linked to 3rd person.
Oh, I realize that. However, "you" has traditionally been used to refer to male and female. If someone does not use "he" or "she" because they believe they are neither gender, then it is inconsistent to call that person "you." Same goes for first person. This is why the pronoun game is half-assed and weak.
Quote from: PsyXypher on November 10, 2021, 11:00:03 AM
The idea that an OSR product would attempt to appeal to something directly opposed to their target market boggles my mind. Older been tend to be more conservative and they're usually the ones who play OSR. Unless I'm wrong in that regard, but I don't think I am.
That's like trying to market guns to Californians or pork to Muslims. Or beef to Hindus. Or Televisions to the Amish.
I could go on for a while but I think you get the point.
If OSR doesn't push towards newer players, it's current fan base will age/die out at some point.
Quote from: rytrasmi on November 10, 2021, 12:15:12 PM
Oh, I realize that. However, "you" has traditionally been used to refer to male and female. If someone does not use "he" or "she" because they believe they are neither gender, then it is inconsistent to call that person "you." Same goes for first person. This is why the pronoun game is half-assed and weak.
What do you consider the proper 2nd person pronoun for gender neutral? Does this mean that if I yell "You piece of shit!" at my malfunctioning car, I'm grammatically incorrect? If so, what's the proper form?
Quote from: rytrasmi on November 10, 2021, 12:15:12 PM
Quote from: Wrath of God on November 10, 2021, 11:46:48 AM
QuoteConsequently, I always refer to this person by name. I also talk to this person directly using "you," which for some reason is okay. "You" has traditionally been used to refer to males and females, so I'm not sure how that's not offensive to this person. But what do I know? I'm just a regular guy. Shrug.
You is second person, and second and first person are not gendered in Indoeuropean languages. There is just one form regardless. All push for pronouns is linked to 3rd person.
Oh, I realize that. However, "you" has traditionally been used to refer to male and female. If someone does not use "he" or "she" because they believe they are neither gender, then it is inconsistent to call that person "you." Same goes for first person. This is why the pronoun game is half-assed and weak.
Someone please tell me what type of person we used to have especial pronouns for?
Because if I'm not mistaken that's the royalty/priesthood.
Are the transactivists claiming to be of royal blood or part of the priesthood of a new cult?
I'm sorry but I live in a country where we don't have royalty, I don't belong to the new cult, and I refuse to grant them the same type of treatment I would give my King/Queen when talking about the Spanish Royalty.
Feel free to bend the knee before your new royalty/priesthood tho.
Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 12:25:07 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on November 10, 2021, 12:15:12 PM
Oh, I realize that. However, "you" has traditionally been used to refer to male and female. If someone does not use "he" or "she" because they believe they are neither gender, then it is inconsistent to call that person "you." Same goes for first person. This is why the pronoun game is half-assed and weak.
What do you consider the proper 2nd person pronoun for gender neutral? Does this mean that if I yell "You piece of shit!" at my malfunctioning car, I'm grammatically incorrect? If so, what's the proper form?
Since you has always been used to refer to either of the two genders I would contend it is gender neutral.
Just like when writing using the gender neutral HE/HIS/HIM.
Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 12:25:07 PM
What do you consider the proper 2nd person pronoun for gender neutral? Does this mean that if I yell "You piece of shit!" at my malfunctioning car, I'm grammatically incorrect? If so, what's the proper form?
"You" is gender neutral, clearly. What point are you trying to make with this question?
What a weird decision. The woke people in the hobby never seemed to particularly like DCC; in fact, they tended to consider it suspicious and borderline problematic due to the source material it is allegedly based on. The "Appendix N" books DCC cites, rooted in toxic masculinity and good, red-blooded violence, are directly incompatible with modern woke ideals, and attempts to combine them have always produced an insipid mush.
Who in the active fandom were clamouring for these changes? Do the DCC players on this forum know?
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 10, 2021, 12:21:35 PMIf OSR doesn't push towards newer players, it's current fan base will age/die out at some point.
There are sufficient young gamers who have an honest interest in old-school gaming
as it is, without the concessions to the rainbow brigades. Admitting the wokies adds nothing; in fact, it only diminishes the scene by making it hostile and eternally policed. Let these people into your living room, it will soon be
their place, while they will be debating whether you can be allowed to stay, or if it is safe to kick you to the curb.
With the current state of affairs, a sane hobby community should engage in a bit of active gatekeeping to keep these types away and make them feel unwelcome. If the DCC people don't do their due diligence
today, they are in for a rude awakening
tomorrow, when these "new fans" will come up with newer and newer lists of demands to purge problematic elements and problematic people from the DCC scene.
Honestly, DCC would gain more by pandering directly to the neo-reactionary crowd. Not that they should, but they would actually appreciate DCC for what it is.
QuoteOh, I realize that. However, "you" has traditionally been used to refer to male and female. If someone does not use "he" or "she" because they believe they are neither gender, then it is inconsistent to call that person "you." Same goes for first person. This is why the pronoun game is half-assed and weak.
I find it... weak argument. I mean angels are genderless, and yet I when they speak, and You when you speak to angel seems to be rational use of English language.
Animals are generally refered as it, nevertheless of their biological sex, and yet when you talk to your dog, you use You.
So yeah.
QuoteSomeone please tell me what type of person we used to have especial pronouns for?
Because if I'm not mistaken that's the royalty/priesthood.
Are the transactivists claiming to be of royal blood or part of the priesthood of a new cult?
If they use plural in first person (second is irrelevant as you and thou were conflated by weak-ass evolution of English language) speaking about themselves as one person in "we are" mode. Then clearly they do :P
Quote"You" is gender neutral, clearly. What point are you trying to make with this question?
Clearly he's mocking your assessment that non-genderconforming queerfolk ... [short break to Listerine my mouth]... should not use "I" and "you" if they use some weird-ass neo-pronouns and deny their God-given gender for some weird-ass social constructs.
QuoteHonestly, DCC would gain more by pandering directly to the neo-reactionary crowd. Not that they should, but they would actually appreciate DCC for what it is.
Nah OSR is for libertarians. Neo-reactionary folk wants skill-monkeyed simulations of space neofeudalism :P
Quote from: rytrasmi on November 10, 2021, 12:33:30 PM
Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 12:25:07 PM
What do you consider the proper 2nd person pronoun for gender neutral? Does this mean that if I yell "You piece of shit!" at my malfunctioning car, I'm grammatically incorrect? If so, what's the proper form?
"You" is gender neutral, clearly. What point are you trying to make with this question?
In reply #34, you claimed that "you" was incorrect to refer to something that is neither male nor female. Here's what you said:
Quote from: rytrasmi on November 10, 2021, 12:15:12 PM
Oh, I realize that. However, "you" has traditionally been used to refer to male and female. If someone does not use "he" or "she" because they believe they are neither gender, then it is inconsistent to call that person "you." Same goes for first person. This is why the pronoun game is half-assed and weak.
Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 12:58:19 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on November 10, 2021, 12:33:30 PM
Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 12:25:07 PM
What do you consider the proper 2nd person pronoun for gender neutral? Does this mean that if I yell "You piece of shit!" at my malfunctioning car, I'm grammatically incorrect? If so, what's the proper form?
"You" is gender neutral, clearly. What point are you trying to make with this question?
In reply #34, you claimed that "you" was incorrect to refer to something that is neither male nor female. Here's what you said:
Quote from: rytrasmi on November 10, 2021, 12:15:12 PM
Oh, I realize that. However, "you" has traditionally been used to refer to male and female. If someone does not use "he" or "she" because they believe they are neither gender, then it is inconsistent to call that person "you." Same goes for first person. This is why the pronoun game is half-assed and weak.
No, I did not. I was pointing out an inconsistency in the thinking of the pronoun people.
Restated for you: If person X believes that "he" or "she" is insufficient for their gender because these words are traditionally used for male and female people, then person X should also believe that "you" is insufficient because this word is also traditionally used for male and female people.
Greetings!
It is really too bad that DCC cannot just say, "We are adhering to the traditional rules of the English language."
Commercially, there is no need to say more, argue, justify, or anything else. Period.
It's also too bad that DCC doesn't have the balls to tell anyone that doesn't like them adhering to the rules of the traditional English language, well, they can just sob and get fucked. DCC doesn't need the fucking rainbow hippo's money or business in any way. Raging cunt feminists can get fucked, too. The world doesn't need to coddle them and make them feel "inclusive" by twisting the English language into a fucking pretzel.
Reee some more, bitches. Your tears are like sweet butter! ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: 3catcircus on November 10, 2021, 08:19:48 AM
They and them are plural pronouns - anyone who wants you use these words to refer to a single person is essentially stating "there is more than one of me." Having multiple personalities is a mental disorder, last I recall
According to the Oxford English Dictionary the singular they has been in use since the 14th century. And been criticized since the 18th century for various reasons starting with grammatists trying to "clean up" the English language by issuing solemn proscriptions of proper usage.
But people will what they want with the language including a certain group that insist the plural of dwarf is dwarves not dwarfs, elves not elfs.
Plural they | They are my children. | When my children cry, I hug them. | My children tell me their ages. | If I lose my phone, my children lend me theirs. | My children dress themselves. |
Singular they | They are a child. | When a child cries, I hug them. | A child tells me their age. | If I lose my phone, a child lends me theirs. | A child dresses themself [or themselves]. |
Generic he | He is a child. | When a child cries, I hug him. | A child tells me his age. | If I lose my phone, a child lends me his. | A child dresses himself. |
Quote from: rytrasmi on November 10, 2021, 01:04:16 PM
Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 12:58:19 PM
In reply #34, you claimed that "you" was incorrect to refer to something that is neither male nor female. Here's what you said:
Quote from: rytrasmi on November 10, 2021, 12:15:12 PM
Oh, I realize that. However, "you" has traditionally been used to refer to male and female. If someone does not use "he" or "she" because they believe they are neither gender, then it is inconsistent to call that person "you." Same goes for first person. This is why the pronoun game is half-assed and weak.
No, I did not. I was pointing out an inconsistency in the thinking of the pronoun people.
Restated for you: If person X believes that "he" or "she" is insufficient for their gender because these words are traditionally used for male and female people, then person X should also believe that "you" is insufficient because this word is also traditionally used for male and female people.
That doesn't logically follow, because "you" is also used for non-gendered or differently-gendered targets - just like the car I mentioned in my example, as well as non-gendered targets in traditional folk tales, fantasy, and sci-fi (i.e. robots, golems, etc.). So the traditional form is sufficient to cover non-gendered or non-binary-gendered.
Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 01:22:30 PM
That doesn't logically follow, because "you" is also used for non-gendered or differently-gendered targets - just like the car I mentioned in my example, as well as non-gendered targets in traditional folk tales, fantasy, and sci-fi (i.e. robots, golems, etc.). So the traditional form is sufficient to cover non-gendered or non-binary-gendered.
The exact same thing can be said for "he" and "she."
"He" and "she" have been used to cover non-gendered or differently-gendered targets.
QuoteRestated for you: If person X believes that "he" or "she" is insufficient for their gender because these words are traditionally used for male and female people, then person X should also believe that "you" is insufficient because this word is also traditionally used for male and female people.
Yes, we get your point. And it is point, if you assume existence of non-binaries as real thing, fallacy, because by this nature you is non-gendered pronoun, while he and she is. That's why you have division into three 3rd person genders in singular (in Polish also in plural). In languages where 3rd person singular is naturally non-gendered like Hungarian problem does not exist AFAIK.
QuoteAccording to the Oxford English Dictionary the singular they has been in use since the 14th century. And been criticized since the 18th century for various reasons starting with grammatists trying to "clean up" the English language by issuing solemn proscriptions of proper usage.
Of course, 18-19 century enlightened linguists trying to purify language to be rational. Disease as bad as wokesters.
QuoteBut people will what they want with the language including a certain group that insist the plural of dwarf is dwarves not dwarfs, elves not elfs.
TBH I wonder how those rules evolved, since in 16th century plural of wolf - was wolfs or woolfs, while now it's wolves and archaic forms are considered incorrect.
I have an unfinished system where l use "creature" generally and "it" as the pronoun. I worry a little that if I ever let it out into the wild, someone might mistake this as a concession to woke. It is really about reflecting the alien nature of many of the characters from humanity. Guess I'd have to have a disclaimer at the front to make sure no woke people bought in expecting something different. :P
"This game uses "it" as the (im)personal pronoun to emphasize the alien nature of characters. Also, to ignore woke bullshit. But mainly the first thing."
Quote from: Wrath of God on November 10, 2021, 01:37:48 PM
TBH I wonder how those rules evolved, since in 16th century plural of wolf - was wolfs or woolfs, while now it's wolves and archaic forms are considered incorrect.
This seems to be a good explanation.
QuoteIt's all about the 'L'.
Try to say 'beliefs'. (I'll wait)
Ok, pretty easy, wasn't it? /fs/ is a very easy consonant cluster.
Now, try saying 'wolfs'. (do it 3 times really quickly)
Not so easy, eh? The transition from the/ l/ to the /f/ and then to the /s/ is a bit of a rough transition.
What is needed here is similarity. Consonants have two distinct categories: vibrating or not vibrating. The easiest transitions are when the consonants are in the same category.
So with 'beliefs' we don't have a problem. The /f/ and the /s/ are both in the same category: not vibrating
With 'wolfs' we have a problem. /l/ vibrates but /f/ doesn't. We can't change the /l/ because it doesn't have a 'not vibrating; twin. We can change the /f/. Its vibrating twin is /v/.
An /f/ can easily become a /v/, simply by adding vibration. Make an /f/. (Come on, try!).
Ok, now notice where your lips and teeth are when you make an /f/. Now make a /v/. You see? Your position didn't change. You simply vibrated or 'voiced' the /f/. Also vibrating or 'voiced' is the /l/. Two vibrating consonants are not too hard to make.
With beliefs we have two non-vibrating sounds. That is also pretty easy.
It's when you have to move from vibrating to not vibrating that the trouble starts.
Now try to say 'wolves'.
Now 'wolfs'.
Which one is easier?
QuoteI have an unfinished system where l use "creature" generally and "it" as the pronoun. I worry a little that if I ever let it out into the wild, someone might mistake this as a concession to woke. It is really about reflecting the alien nature of many of the characters from humanity. Guess I'd have to have a disclaimer at the front to make sure no woke people bought in expecting something different. :P
"This game uses "it" as the (im)personal pronoun to emphasize the alien nature of characters. Also, to ignore woke bullshit. But mainly the first thing."
Add no disclaimers. Just let wokes and unwokes to boil down internally trying to guess your intentions. No virtue signalling - that's the first rule. And that would be virtue signalling. Unwoke, but still.
QuoteIt's all about the 'L'.
Try to say 'beliefs'. (I'll wait)
Ok, pretty easy, wasn't it? /fs/ is a very easy consonant cluster.
Now, try saying 'wolfs'. (do it 3 times really quickly)
Not so easy, eh? The transition from the/ l/ to the /f/ and then to the /s/ is a bit of a rough transition.
What is needed here is similarity. Consonants have two distinct categories: vibrating or not vibrating. The easiest transitions are when the consonants are in the same category.
So with 'beliefs' we don't have a problem. The /f/ and the /s/ are both in the same category: not vibrating
With 'wolfs' we have a problem. /l/ vibrates but /f/ doesn't. We can't change the /l/ because it doesn't have a 'not vibrating; twin. We can change the /f/. Its vibrating twin is /v/.
An /f/ can easily become a /v/, simply by adding vibration. Make an /f/. (Come on, try!).
Ok, now notice where your lips and teeth are when you make an /f/. Now make a /v/. You see? Your position didn't change. You simply vibrated or 'voiced' the /f/. Also vibrating or 'voiced' is the /l/. Two vibrating consonants are not too hard to make.
With beliefs we have two non-vibrating sounds. That is also pretty easy.
It's when you have to move from vibrating to not vibrating that the trouble starts.
Now try to say 'wolves'.
Now 'wolfs'.
Which one is easier?
Terrible idea. To change your ortography for such petty shit.
Here in civilised Eastern Europe - we just spell inconvinient combinations differently than they are written.
AFAIK there is voiceless L equivalent - [ɬ] in IPA. It exist in Welsh and is written as ll.
Quote from: Wrath of God on November 10, 2021, 12:45:42 PM
Quote
QuoteSomeone please tell me what type of person we used to have especial pronouns for?
Because if I'm not mistaken that's the royalty/priesthood.
Are the transactivists claiming to be of royal blood or part of the priesthood of a new cult?
If they use plural in first person (second is irrelevant as you and thou were conflated by weak-ass evolution of English language) speaking about themselves as one person in "we are" mode. Then clearly they do :P
Regardless if they use it in the first person or not (And I'm pretty sure they do), only people who have a special pronoun to be referred to by others are Royalty/Priesthood:
Your/His/Her Higness/Santity.
I'm not bending my knee other than to the Spanish King/Queen, because I've double citizenship.
Maybe if I ever met other members of a diferent Royal family. Certainly not to the mentally ill.
Quote from: Wrath of God on November 10, 2021, 02:37:25 PM
Terrible idea. To change your ortography for such petty shit.
Here in civilised Eastern Europe - we just spell inconvinient combinations differently than they are written.
Well being conquered by the French or rather viking flavored French and Norman French being the official language for a couple of hundred years will do that to a language. Then to cap it off have a major shift in dialect (The Great Vowel Shift) happen AFTER spelling started to get standardized and and English language literature starting to happen.
Indeed. Now on the other side, old English had simply WULFAS, much easier to spell.
QuoteI'm not bending my knee other than to the Spanish King/Queen, because I've double citizenship.
Maybe if I ever met other members of a diferent Royal family.
Louis XX de France is pretty based guy and well cousin to Spanish royalty (though unfortunately due to his grandfather dropping rights to Spanish crown, and Utrecht treaty he hold no claim for Spain. Hope it can be reversed - France, Spain and Naples in hands of one King is good foundation to rebuild Western Roman Empire.)
If you are getting pulled into the semantics of how they is singular, plural, or whatever you are being pulled away from the real conversation.
A change moving forward, okay, fine. The fact they will spend time, money, and resources going over the back catalogue to retread work already completed tells you what this is really about.
RPGs have a history of using minor variations of a word to create new monsters. Dwarfs and dwarves could be different monsters. They're exactly the same when there's only one of them, but when they appear in a group, dwarfs start to speak with a Scottish accent.
Quote from: estar on November 10, 2021, 01:19:21 PM
According to the Oxford English Dictionary the singular they has been in use since the 14th century. And been criticized since the 18th century for various reasons starting with grammatists trying to "clean up" the English language by issuing solemn proscriptions of proper usage.
But people will what they want with the language including a certain group that insist the plural of dwarf is dwarves not dwarfs, elves not elfs.
Plural they | They are my children. | When my children cry, I hug them. | My children tell me their ages. | If I lose my phone, my children lend me theirs. | My children dress themselves. |
Singular they | They are a child. | When a child cries, I hug them. | A child tells me their age. | If I lose my phone, a child lends me theirs. | A child dresses themself [or themselves]. |
Generic he | He is a child. | When a child cries, I hug him. | A child tells me his age. | If I lose my phone, a child lends me his. | A child dresses himself. |
Singular "they" is for an indeterminate person, not for a specific person of indeterminate gender. "When a child cries, I hug them" is right, "When
the child cries, I hug them" is, traditionally, broken grammar.
P.S. got a link for that Oxford assertion?
Quote from: SHARK on November 10, 2021, 01:04:34 PM
It is really too bad that DCC cannot just say, "We are adhering to the traditional rules of the English language."
Commercially, there is no need to say more, argue, justify, or anything else. Period.
It's too bad they feel the need to say anything at all about using grammar in a published work.
Quote from: FingerRod on November 10, 2021, 03:39:37 PM
If you are getting pulled into the semantics of how they is singular, plural, or whatever you are being pulled away from the real conversation.
A change moving forward, okay, fine. The fact they will spend time, money, and resources going over the back catalogue to retread work already completed tells you what this is really about.
And doubly so that they need to announce reprints of everything.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on November 10, 2021, 01:44:42 PM
I have an unfinished system where l use "creature" generally and "it" as the pronoun. I worry a little that if I ever let it out into the wild, someone might mistake this as a concession to woke. It is really about reflecting the alien nature of many of the characters from humanity. Guess I'd have to have a disclaimer at the front to make sure no woke people bought in expecting something different. :P
"This game uses "it" as the (im)personal pronoun to emphasize the alien nature of characters. Also, to ignore woke bullshit. But mainly the first thing."
No doubt that language emphasizes the alien nature of
something ;)
For monsters, sure, but PCs? Makes me feel like my character is a chair.
So when the whole woke trend gets old, because it will. What are these hundreds of companies going to do? File bankruptcy, come back as a different brand? Because I doubt going unwoke will be a thing.
I don't see this as a Woke issue. People have been arguing about this for decades, long before Woke. I switched to "they" for indeterminate gender some time ago, and found it works perfectly fine. Less cumbersome than "he or she." Examples:
If anyone has a problem with the new rules, they can leave a comment below.
The candidate will need to submit their resume to the proper email address.
When a character drops below zero hit points, they fall immediately unconscious.
All of those sound natural to me. I agree that sometimes there is a confusion between singular or plural, but context usually makes it clear.
Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 12:13:20 PM
What pronoun pattern did DCCRPG use previously, out of curiousity? Did it "he or she" for generic people like original AD&D? Or something else?
A search of the DCC rule book pdf finds:
2728 instances of "he"
5 instances of "she"
802 instances of "they"
All of the 5 "she" refer to specific females (e.g., p.394: "when a young queen matures... she brings with her...").
<snark>
Of course that begs the question of whether referring to an ant as female is transphobic.
<\snark>
Quote from: Zalman on November 10, 2021, 03:51:40 PM
Singular "they" is for an indeterminate person, not for a specific person of indeterminate gender. "When a child cries, I hug them" is right, "When the child cries, I hug them" is, traditionally, broken grammar.
P.S. got a link for that Oxford assertion?
Here's an OED link.
https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/
In general usage, it seems to me that singular "they" is used regardless of gender rather than a narrowly defined case. It can be used for a specific person even of known male or female gender. For example, Shakespeare's A Comedy of Errors, Act IV, Scene 3:
There's not a man I meet but doth salute me
As if I were their well-acquainted friend
In general, English isn't closely prescribed - and usage will vary, especially in conversation and non-formal writing like fiction and RPGs. If I picture an oath in some fantasy RPG, it's less likely:
"I have no idea what the entity is that broke in, but whatever he, she, or it is - we will stop him, her, or it."
vs
"I have no idea what the entity is that broke in, but whatever they are - we will stop them."
Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 04:36:33 PM
Quote from: Zalman on November 10, 2021, 03:51:40 PM
Singular "they" is for an indeterminate person, not for a specific person of indeterminate gender. "When a child cries, I hug them" is right, "When the child cries, I hug them" is, traditionally, broken grammar.
P.S. got a link for that Oxford assertion?
Here's an OED link.
https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/
In general usage, it seems to me that singular "they" is used regardless of gender rather than a narrowly defined case. It can be used for a specific person even of known male or female gender. For example, Shakespeare's A Comedy of Errors, Act IV, Scene 3:
There's not a man I meet but doth salute me
As if I were their well-acquainted friend
In general, English isn't closely prescribed - and usage will vary, especially in conversation and non-formal writing like fiction and RPGs. If I picture an oath in some fantasy RPG, it's less likely:
"I have no idea what the entity is that broke in, but whatever he, she, or it is - we will stop him, her, or it."
vs
"I have no idea what the entity is that broke in, but whatever they are - we will stop them."
Bolding mine
Translated to modern english or to a plain english if you will:
All men I encounter salute me
As if we were old friends
That's not an example of singular they.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 10, 2021, 04:47:57 PM
That's not an example of singular they.
Here are some more recent literary examples:
"Who is in love with her? Who makes you their confidant?" — Jane Austen, in Emma (1815)
"A person can't help their birth." — Rosalind, in William Makepeace Thackeray, Vanity Fair (1848)
"But how can you talk with a person if they always say the same thing?" ― Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass (1871)
"Nobody in their senses would give sixpence on the strength of a promissory note of the kind." — Lord Landsdowne in The Liberal Magazine (1914)
"She kept her head and kicked her shoes off, as everybody ought to do who falls into deep water in their clothes." — C.S. Lewis, in The Voyage of the Dawn Treader (1952)
Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 05:05:33 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 10, 2021, 04:47:57 PM
That's not an example of singular they.
Here are some more recent literary examples:
"Who is in love with her? Who makes you their confidant?" — Jane Austen, in Emma (1815)
"A person can't help their birth." — Rosalind, in William Makepeace Thackeray, Vanity Fair (1848)
"But how can you talk with a person if they always say the same thing?" ― Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass (1871)
"Nobody in their senses would give sixpence on the strength of a promissory note of the kind." — Lord Landsdowne in The Liberal Magazine (1914)
"She kept her head and kicked her shoes off, as everybody ought to do who falls into deep water in their clothes." — C.S. Lewis, in The Voyage of the Dawn Treader (1952)
I bet it was time traveling wokesters that are trying to destroy the timeline!
Man..... I mean They.... Say it ain't so!!!
DCC has always had the aura of being gonzo and hardcore. Now "They" are giving in to the sensitive sissy woke bullshit too?
Man.... I mean They....
Another "tempest in a teapot". It's not going to fundamentally change how the game works.
I find throwing a fit against "wokeness" in response to what many of you decry as weak "cuck" "bend the knee" behavior as hilarious. So, they (see what I did there?) need to "man up" and push back against the libs, but instead they pushed back against you and decided "they" is an ok compromise. Now you are taking your ball and going home.
The hand-wringing over everything = racism, censorship is ok, and anyone who disagrees with me = nazi child molester -- has all been troubling to deal with. It seems like the outrage brigade rages as a default social stance. You wanna do that too?
Maybe the anti-woke crowd should stop hand-wringing over every change that even stinks of "wokeness", you know, to demonstrate your higher emotional maturity?
Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 05:05:33 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 10, 2021, 04:47:57 PM
That's not an example of singular they.
Here are some more recent literary examples:
"Who is in love with her? Who makes you their confidant?" — Jane Austen, in Emma (1815)
"A person can't help their birth." — Rosalind, in William Makepeace Thackeray, Vanity Fair (1848)
"But how can you talk with a person if they always say the same thing?" ― Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass (1871)
"Nobody in their senses would give sixpence on the strength of a promissory note of the kind." — Lord Landsdowne in The Liberal Magazine (1914)
"She kept her head and kicked her shoes off, as everybody ought to do who falls into deep water in their clothes." — C.S. Lewis, in The Voyage of the Dawn Treader (1952)
And 2 of those start talking about ONE person of known sex and then turn to talking about unknown persons, with 2 talking about person(s) of unknown sex.
Still not an example of you being right my dude.
Quote from: trechriron on November 10, 2021, 05:45:33 PM
Another "tempest in a teapot". It's not going to fundamentally change how the game works.
I find throwing a fit against "wokeness" in response to what many of you decry as weak "cuck" "bend the knee" behavior as hilarious. So, they (see what I did there?) need to "man up" and push back against the libs, but instead they pushed back against you and decided "they" is an ok compromise. Now you are taking your ball and going home.
The hand-wringing over everything = racism, censorship is ok, and anyone who disagrees with me = nazi child molester -- has all been troubling to deal with.
Maybe the anti-woke crowd should stop hand-wringing over every change that even stinks of "wokeness", you know, to demonstrate your higher emotional maturity?
No, it will just change how I choose to spend my money. Because next up is the developers/publisher stating that if I don't follow their cult's dogma they don't want my money.
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 10, 2021, 05:23:14 PM
Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 05:05:33 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 10, 2021, 04:47:57 PM
That's not an example of singular they.
Here are some more recent literary examples:
"Who is in love with her? Who makes you their confidant?" — Jane Austen, in Emma (1815)
"A person can't help their birth." — Rosalind, in William Makepeace Thackeray, Vanity Fair (1848)
"But how can you talk with a person if they always say the same thing?" ― Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass (1871)
"Nobody in their senses would give sixpence on the strength of a promissory note of the kind." — Lord Landsdowne in The Liberal Magazine (1914)
"She kept her head and kicked her shoes off, as everybody ought to do who falls into deep water in their clothes." — C.S. Lewis, in The Voyage of the Dawn Treader (1952)
I bet it was time traveling wokesters that are trying to destroy the timeline!
No, just another example of you lacking any reading comprehension.
Man. MAN!
I can't say I'm surprised. I think I was the one who first posted the info about DCC and BLM on the thread that had the original list of woke/non-woke RPG companies.
I did not know how left these guys were.
You know, when you pick up DCC, you see that the style/vibe they are going for is: down in your parent's basement in the 1970s/1980s playing heavy metal music -- metal. METAL!
This really seems deceptive, doesn't it? They are presenting their RPG as having a certain vibe, for a certain audience, and, actually, it's not that at all.
Think about this: Look at the DCC iconic characters -- the barbarian-looking dude, in particular, with the bell-bottoms. Can you imagine that guy saying "they"? What a joke.
DCC is supposed to be hardcore and metal, you know? Not the RPG for snowflakes. It has the funnel -- not for pansies.
But here we are: the creators are such pansies that they bow down to the demands of the feminist establishment.
Make no mistake, that is the only reason it is being done: pandering.
The grammatical argument is just smoke. Look at the intention here. It's the intent that matters, and the intent is clear: bow down to the feminists.
DCC is firmly in the red category now. Hopefully, the OP for that thread will move DCC to that category.
Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 12:25:07 PM
Does this mean that if I yell "You piece of shit!" at my malfunctioning car, I'm grammatically incorrect?
Cars (and ships, and countries) are traditionally referred to with female pronouns in English.
No one said it had to make sense.
Quote from: 1989 on November 10, 2021, 05:49:41 PM
Man. MAN!
I can't say I'm surprised. I think I was the one who first posted the info about DCC and BLM on the thread that had the original list of woke/non-woke RPG companies.
I did not know how left these guys were.
You know, when you pick up DCC, you see that the style/vibe they are going for is: down in your parent's basement in the 1970s/1980s playing heavy metal music -- metal. METAL!
This really seems deceptive, doesn't it? They are presenting their RPG as having a certain vibe, for a certain audience, and, actually, it's not that at all.
Think about this: Look at the DCC iconic characters -- the barbarian-looking dude, in particular, with the bell-bottoms. Can you imagine that guy saying "they"? What a joke.
DCC is supposed to be hardcore and metal, you know? Not the RPG for snowflakes. It has the funnel -- not for pansies.
But here we are: the creators are such pansies that they bow down to the demands of the feminist establishment.
Make no mistake, that is the only reason it is being done: pandering.
The grammatical argument is just smoke. Look at the intention here. It's the intent that matters, and the intent is clear: bow down to the feminists.
DCC is firmly in the red category now. Hopefully, the OP for that thread will move DCC to that category.
Bolding mine
Agreed and seconded.
I really dig the original Core Book for DCC. I own the standard cover. I have thought a few times, about picking up the Annual to go along with it.
So sad to hear this. They had a good thing going, that was unique and different.
Perhaps they think that their market growth has already peaked; and now they need some new spin or buzz, to bring in new players and new sales?
I wonder if this will have any impact, on RPG Pundit's long running DCC campaign?
Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 12:25:07 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on November 10, 2021, 12:15:12 PM
Oh, I realize that. However, "you" has traditionally been used to refer to male and female. If someone does not use "he" or "she" because they believe they are neither gender, then it is inconsistent to call that person "you." Same goes for first person. This is why the pronoun game is half-assed and weak.
What do you consider the proper 2nd person pronoun for gender neutral? Does this mean that if I yell "You piece of shit!" at my malfunctioning car, I'm grammatically incorrect? If so, what's the proper form?
Since you live in California it would be hard to narrow down exactly what piece of shit you might be referring too.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 10, 2021, 05:49:04 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 10, 2021, 05:23:14 PM
Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 05:05:33 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 10, 2021, 04:47:57 PM
That's not an example of singular they.
Here are some more recent literary examples:
"Who is in love with her? Who makes you their confidant?" — Jane Austen, in Emma (1815)
"A person can't help their birth." — Rosalind, in William Makepeace Thackeray, Vanity Fair (1848)
"But how can you talk with a person if they always say the same thing?" ― Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass (1871)
"Nobody in their senses would give sixpence on the strength of a promissory note of the kind." — Lord Landsdowne in The Liberal Magazine (1914)
"She kept her head and kicked her shoes off, as everybody ought to do who falls into deep water in their clothes." — C.S. Lewis, in The Voyage of the Dawn Treader (1952)
I bet it was time traveling wokesters that are trying to destroy the timeline!
No, just another example of you lacking any reading comprehension.
Since you're not good at picking up on it, I was making a joke.
By itself-this is nothing. But this is a raise by half a degree on the boiling pot.
Im sorry but after having this sort of thing happen many times, I am not inclined to dismiss this as a insignificant indicator of the companies change in priorities.
But Im not going to pretend to be outraged because I don't know/care what DCC is.
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 10, 2021, 06:10:45 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 10, 2021, 05:49:04 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 10, 2021, 05:23:14 PM
Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 05:05:33 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 10, 2021, 04:47:57 PM
That's not an example of singular they.
Here are some more recent literary examples:
"Who is in love with her? Who makes you their confidant?" — Jane Austen, in Emma (1815)
"A person can't help their birth." — Rosalind, in William Makepeace Thackeray, Vanity Fair (1848)
"But how can you talk with a person if they always say the same thing?" ― Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass (1871)
"Nobody in their senses would give sixpence on the strength of a promissory note of the kind." — Lord Landsdowne in The Liberal Magazine (1914)
"She kept her head and kicked her shoes off, as everybody ought to do who falls into deep water in their clothes." — C.S. Lewis, in The Voyage of the Dawn Treader (1952)
I bet it was time traveling wokesters that are trying to destroy the timeline!
No, just another example of you lacking any reading comprehension.
Since you're not good at picking up on it, I was making a joke.
Welp, then MY BAD, sorry for the snark. :-[
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on November 10, 2021, 06:25:43 PM
By itself-this is nothing. But this is a raise by half a degree on the boiling pot.
Im sorry but after having this sort of thing happen many times, I am not inclined to dismiss this as a insignificant indicator of the companies change in priorities.
But Im not going to pretend to be outraged because I don't know/care what DCC is.
I know/care and yet I'm not outraged, I'm just not going to give them any money/attention/press. And I was making 2 fanzines/games based of off DCC :'(
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on November 10, 2021, 01:44:42 PM
I have an unfinished system where l use "creature" generally and "it" as the pronoun. I worry a little that if I ever let it out into the wild, someone might mistake this as a concession to woke. It is really about reflecting the alien nature of many of the characters from humanity. Guess I'd have to have a disclaimer at the front to make sure no woke people bought in expecting something different. :P
"This game uses "it" as the (im)personal pronoun to emphasize the alien nature of characters. Also, to ignore woke bullshit. But mainly the first thing."
Steven - that's cool. What's the game premise? Also, have you read any of the Murderbot series by Martha Wells? I love them, and the main character uses the pronoun "it" for itself. This makes me wonder about how to do a Murderbot RPG. One of the interesting features is that there's a bunch of simultaneous computer hacking at the same time as physical action, and I'm not sure how I'd do that.
Maybe they should change the name of the company to "Goodperson Games"?
QuoteYou know, when you pick up DCC, you see that the style/vibe they are going for is: down in your parent's basement in the 1970s/1980s playing heavy metal music -- metal. METAL!
This really seems deceptive, doesn't it? They are presenting their RPG as having a certain vibe, for a certain audience, and, actually, it's not that at all.
Think about this: Look at the DCC iconic characters -- the barbarian-looking dude, in particular, with the bell-bottoms. Can you imagine that guy saying "they"? What a joke.
Sheaksperean singular they as quoted above of course.
Also metal from the beginning was mostly liberal progressive cesspol - so yeah it's kinda very metal to go this way :P
Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 06:39:08 PM
Steven - that's cool. What's the game premise?
Premise is pretty standard fantasy in most ways. A bunch of characters go have adventures and use magic. But it is layered on a system of fairy-tale logic genetics that means that exactly what a character is can be somewhat strange, even within the same family. I've often said that I can't stand "half" races in games. Either the races are distinct things (with real differences in play), or I want a game with everything mixed up in some fantastical way to emphasize that. The game was in part an attempt to explore the mixed up option. For me, half races sit in an uncanny valley of design.
Presumably, in the setting, different cultures would use whatever local words were logical for them, including he/she in many cases. However, from the system's perspective, other cultures are weird and full of "its".
Not quite the "chair" that Zalman mentioned, but descended from "wood" was one of the fairy-tale genetic markers. :)
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on November 10, 2021, 06:55:54 PM
Maybe they should change the name of the company to "Goodperson Games"?
Its disgusting how they brazenly support the Patriarchy with with their current company name. >:(
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on November 10, 2021, 07:07:24 PM
Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 06:39:08 PM
Steven - that's cool. What's the game premise?
Premise is pretty standard fantasy in most ways. A bunch of characters go have adventures and use magic. But it is layered on a system of fairy-tale logic genetics that means that exactly what a character is can be somewhat strange, even within the same family. I've often said that I can't stand "half" races in games. Either the races are distinct things (with real differences in play), or I want a game with everything mixed up in some fantastical way to emphasize that. The game was in part an attempt to explore the mixed up option. For me, half races sit in an uncanny valley of design.
Presumably, in the setting, different cultures would use whatever local words were logical for them, including he/she in many cases. However, from the system's perspective, other cultures are weird and full of "its".
Not quite the "chair" that Zalman mentioned, but descended from "wood" was one of the fairy-tale genetic markers. :)
Are you familiar with Muls from Dark Sun? They're half-human half-dwarves, and they're portrayed pretty realistic for a hybrid species. Instead of being like a Half-Elf, they're more like ligers; larger and more muscular than either parent, sterile, and have superior physical abilities.
The Elder Scrolls series did something I also like. There's no "Hybrids". The race is determined by the mother, and some traits might come from the father. Like a human child fathered by an Orc might have a more exaggerated jawline or be hairier. If the father was an elf, the kid might be more magically inclined. Which is how one of the races, the Bretons, ended up coming to be.
Quote from: 3catcircus on November 10, 2021, 08:19:48 AM
Quote from: mightybrain on November 10, 2021, 07:57:09 AM
It calls to mind this passage in the Rules Cyclopedia
QuotePronoun Note
The male pronouns (he, him, his) are used throughout this book. We hope this won't be interpreted by anyone as an attempt to exclude females from the game or to imply their exclusion.
Centuries of use have made these pronouns neutral, and we feel their use provides for clear and concise written text.
I wonder if the editors realised at the time that this would be the first slippery step.
The male pronouns (he, him, his) have been used for centuries as neutral gender. If this gets your panties in a bunch, man up!
They and them are plural pronouns - anyone who wants you use these words to refer to a single person is essentially stating "there is more than one of me." Having multiple personalities is a mental disorder, last I recall
At least in British (and commonwealth) English, "They" is very commonly used. I've used it all the time in writing, both academic and gaming.
So for example "If a magician wants to cast a spell, they need the material components".
Where it becomes iffy is when it moves from the generic to the personal, as in a specific defined individual. So "A magician", or "the perpetrator" or "any pharmacist" in generic terms is "They", but "Gandalf" is a he, or "Morgana le Fay" is a she.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on November 10, 2021, 07:07:24 PM
Not quite the "chair" that Zalman mentioned, but descended from "wood" was one of the fairy-tale genetic markers. :)
Now that level of weirdness may warrant an "it" or two, I'll concede.
However, by name-level I expect to be a full-fledged dining set!
Quote from: PsyXypher on November 10, 2021, 11:00:03 AM
The idea that an OSR product would attempt to appeal to something directly opposed to their target market boggles my mind. Older been tend to be more conservative and they're usually the ones who play OSR. Unless I'm wrong in that regard, but I don't think I am.
That's like trying to market guns to Californians or pork to Muslims. Or beef to Hindus. Or Televisions to the Amish.
I could go on for a while but I think you get the point.
Or "Masculinity is Rape Culture" Feminism to people who buy Gillette shavers?
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 10, 2021, 12:21:35 PM
Quote from: PsyXypher on November 10, 2021, 11:00:03 AM
The idea that an OSR product would attempt to appeal to something directly opposed to their target market boggles my mind. Older been tend to be more conservative and they're usually the ones who play OSR. Unless I'm wrong in that regard, but I don't think I am.
That's like trying to market guns to Californians or pork to Muslims. Or beef to Hindus. Or Televisions to the Amish.
I could go on for a while but I think you get the point.
If OSR doesn't push towards newer players, it's current fan base will age/die out at some point.
The OSR gets new players all the time. The more ultra-left that Wizards and other big gaming companies get, the better it turns out for us.
Given that sooner or later the Left has already declared that anyone who doesn't vote for them is a White Supremacist, and will eventually have to say that about ever more people on their own side ("Anyone who doesn't support us in banning non-insect meat is a Nazi and a Domestic Terrorist!"), I'm not worried about the OSR maintaining its ranks. Your side is doing all the recruiting for us.
Quote from: Jam The MF on November 10, 2021, 06:04:24 PM
I wonder if this will have any impact, on RPG Pundit's long running DCC campaign?
Nope. First of all, if this is really the only thing they're changing, I wouldn't care enough regardless.
But second, what you have to get about my Last Sun campaign is that the ONLY DCC product we use in it is really the DCC Corebook. That's it.
All the other stuff in it is coming mainly from my own World of the Last Sun (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/336819/RPGPundit-Presents-World-of-the-Last-Sun) and the Last Sun "RPGPundit Presents" issues, or from other OSR or old-school D&D sources.
Greetings!
Yeah, the Insect Meat is on the way. The UN is going to make it so that everyone is forced to eat crunchy insect patties, instead of *meat*. Because, of course, that's what better for "the environment" and responding to "the climate crisis".
All the weak fucking Libtards are going to line the fuck up for that. Yes, good little slaves. Here's your Insect Patty ration for the week!
And remember, "You will own nothing and be happy!"
Fucking weak cucks, all of them.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I mean, I'm all for insect meat. After feasting on crickets numerous times in the backcountry, I've often marveled at the idea of a "locust plague" causing famine!
I'm sure SHARK's players would agree.
Between being hesitant at the expensive sand sometimes hard to get funky dice. I'm no longer interested which is too bad. I'm done buying from SJW butt kissing rpg companies.
Funny enough my wife loves the look and appearance of the 5E boxed set that I cannot sell them lol
RIP Goodman games.
Quote from: SHARK on November 10, 2021, 07:53:50 PM
Greetings!
Yeah, the Insect Meat is on the way. The UN is going to make it so that everyone is forced to eat crunchy insect patties, instead of *meat*. Because, of course, that's what better for "the environment" and responding to "the climate crisis".
All the weak fucking Libtards are going to line the fuck up for that. Yes, good little slaves. Here's your Insect Patty ration for the week!
And remember, "You will own nothing and be happy!"
Fucking weak cucks, all of them.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I think there are enough real Americans who can stand up to them (the UN). And while some members of our military might support a UN occupation, the ones who can actually fight, will not.
Also:
Happy Birthday Marine!
Quote from: trechriron on November 10, 2021, 05:45:33 PM
Another "tempest in a teapot". It's not going to fundamentally change how the game works.
I find throwing a fit against "wokeness" in response to what many of you decry as weak "cuck" "bend the knee" behavior as hilarious. So, they (see what I did there?) need to "man up" and push back against the libs, but instead they pushed back against you and decided "they" is an ok compromise. Now you are taking your ball and going home.
The hand-wringing over everything = racism, censorship is ok, and anyone who disagrees with me = nazi child molester -- has all been troubling to deal with. It seems like the outrage brigade rages as a default social stance. You wanna do that too?
Maybe the anti-woke crowd should stop hand-wringing over every change that even stinks of "wokeness", you know, to demonstrate your higher emotional maturity?
You know why people push back against such minor "tempest in a teapot" changes? Because it's the same kind of minor changes that give the whackadoodle activists a foot in the door.
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 10, 2021, 07:35:00 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 10, 2021, 12:21:35 PM
Quote from: PsyXypher on November 10, 2021, 11:00:03 AM
The idea that an OSR product would attempt to appeal to something directly opposed to their target market boggles my mind. Older been tend to be more conservative and they're usually the ones who play OSR. Unless I'm wrong in that regard, but I don't think I am.
That's like trying to market guns to Californians or pork to Muslims. Or beef to Hindus. Or Televisions to the Amish.
I could go on for a while but I think you get the point.
If OSR doesn't push towards newer players, it's current fan base will age/die out at some point.
The OSR gets new players all the time. The more ultra-left that Wizards and other big gaming companies get, the better it turns out for us.
Given that sooner or later the Left has already declared that anyone who doesn't vote for them is a White Supremacist, and will eventually have to say that about ever more people on their own side ("Anyone who doesn't support us in banning non-insect meat is a Nazi and a Domestic Terrorist!"), I'm not worried about the OSR maintaining its ranks. Your side is doing all the recruiting for us.
My side?
Quote from: Abraxus on November 10, 2021, 08:51:51 PM
Between being hesitant at the expensive sand sometimes hard to get funky dice. I'm no longer interested which is too bad. I'm done buying from SJW butt kissing rpg companies.
Funny enough my wife loves the look and appearance of the 5E boxed set that I cannot sell them lol
RIP Goodman games.
Glad to hear the wedding happened. Best wishes IRL.
So, I hope this doesn't come as a surprise. The hobby been dying down... slowly... but surely. Best way to get new players quick, is to do dumb cheap sales with hopes of attracting hesitant buyers. Once they have something to compare to, they'll probably pick the healthier alternative.
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 10, 2021, 09:16:34 PM
Quote from: Abraxus on November 10, 2021, 08:51:51 PM
Between being hesitant at the expensive sand sometimes hard to get funky dice. I'm no longer interested which is too bad. I'm done buying from SJW butt kissing rpg companies.
Funny enough my wife loves the look and appearance of the 5E boxed set that I cannot sell them lol
RIP Goodman games.
Glad to hear the wedding happened. Best wishes IRL.
Hey HD thanks besides the Priest being drunk and mostly incoherent during the ceremony everything else was perfect.
Quote from: Abraxus on November 10, 2021, 08:51:51 PM
Between being hesitant at the expensive sand sometimes hard to get funky dice.
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=dcc+dice+set&ref=nb_sb_noss_2
Quote from: FingerRod on November 10, 2021, 03:39:37 PMIf you are getting pulled into the semantics of how they is singular, plural, or whatever you are being pulled away from the real conversation.
Precisely. This is a matter of basic truths, and you need very elaborate mental structures to deny fundamental reality. People have to jump through multiple hoops before adopting the weirdo speak that has spilled out of obscure social studies departments, and on a social level, it takes a lot of reinforcement/browbeating/stigmatisation to get it accepted on a wide basis.
The whole pronoun debacle is a distraction. If it wasn't pronouns, it would be the creepy habit of referring to people as "bodies", or any other sly attempts at linguistic social engineering. It can be endlessly debated, but these debates are only going to distract us from issues of truth and falsehood. And those do matter!
Reminded of a certain meme:
French: "This chair is feminine! 'La Chaise'!"
German: "This chair is masculine! 'Der Stuhl'!"
English: "This chair is a fucking object, I don't see a skirt or a pair of trousers anywhere on its cold hard surface, you people are fucking insane."
Japanese: "If you don't say chair exactly right, you'll say testicles instead."
Quote from: hedgehobbit on November 10, 2021, 11:05:15 AM
Quote from: PsyXypher on November 10, 2021, 11:00:03 AM
The idea that an OSR product would attempt to appeal to something directly opposed to their target market boggles my mind.
It's not just an OSR game, it's a game that is trying to emulate the art, rules, and writing style of the 1980s. This change goes against the core aesthetic that the game is trying to get across.
The game is literally called "Classic".
Theres been an ongoing push to co-opt the OSR into another woke platform. DCC is just the current one to be co-opted. There will be more.
Quote from: Ka'arl Sorcerer of Cha'alt on November 10, 2021, 04:25:39 AM
more inclusive by changing all pronouns to they in not just all future products but going back through the entire back catalog as well to make changes to be more inclusive.
Ugh!... >:( Put 'em on the Red list!
Quote from: trechriron on November 10, 2021, 05:45:33 PM
Another "tempest in a teapot".
You're referring to DCC's grandstanding right? If it's such a nothingburger, then why does DCC feel the need to soapbox it up?
Pretty obvious who's stirring the storm.
Both of my daughters play RPG and they both care about use of he exclusively. They understand that the older, accepted usage of he was meant to be gender neutral, but they don't agree that it is.
The local store I play in is about 30-40% younger women players.
It is quaint that people here are outraged about the change to they/them while insisting that people should not be upset about he/his.
Double quaint that they expect Goodman Games to not want to advertise that they understand and have adjusted.
Quote from: Myrdin Potter on November 11, 2021, 09:20:37 AM
Both of my daughters play RPG and they both care about use of he exclusively. They understand that the older, axcepted usage of he was meant to be gender neutral, but they don't agree that it is.
The local store I play in is about 30-40% younger women players.
It is quaint that people here are outraged about the change to they/them while insisting that people should not be upset about he/his.
Double quaint that they expect Goodman Games to not want to advertise that they understand and have adjusted.
If all this is truly representative of reality, then their sales will skyrocket, as all of those young women read the advertisement and flock to the RPG refuge that is DCC.
I guess we'll find out soon enough!
Whether it's he/him/his or they/them/their I could care less. But advertising this change in pronoun usage is virtual signalling at its purist. That is the red flag. Like all those who like to present themselves as "good men" it is a good indicator that they are anything but. Have we not had sufficient demonstrations of this over the last few years? Forewarned is forearmed.
Quote from: mightybrain on November 11, 2021, 10:28:17 AM
But advertising this change in pronoun usage is virtual signalling at its purist. That is the red flag. Like all those who like to present themselves as "good men" it is a good indicator that they are anything but.
Indeed... If you do it because you really want to that's one thing. But standing there beating your drum over the parapet is as pretentious as fek.
Quote from: Myrdin Potter on November 11, 2021, 09:20:37 AM
Both of my daughters play RPG and they both care about use of he exclusively. They understand that the older, axcepted usage of he was meant to be gender neutral, but they don't agree that it is.
Truth is truth no matter how many people believe it. Lies are lies no matter how many people believ it. Language manipulation is language manipulation.
If your kids where arguing for an opinion you thought was wrong, you would be discounting them on the fact their young. So don't bring them up to support your arguments when they align with you.
Honestly I stepped away from goodman after reading their con guidelines last year. I think they make their intentions pretty clear. They should have been moved to the red list from the beginning.
Link to Dungeon Con guidelines
https://goodman-games.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/DCO-Policies.pdf
Dungeon Con Online 2021 Code of Conduct - Goodman Games
Edit* whoops wrong link!
Also this
Greetings!
*Laughing* All the "Good Men" advertising their virtue!
When I met my girlfriend, I told her she probably shouldn't think about being serious with me, because I am not good, but I'm a bad man. Selfish, self-centered, demanding, harsh, masculine, patriarchal, and a ruthless, old-school Conservative Tyrannosaurus Rex that sits at the right hand of Genghis Khan politically.
She's pretty Liberal, too. She's a touchy-feely counselor by profession. ;D
She was entirely boggled that a man would say things like that about themselves on a first date. It blew her mind! ;D I actually made an argument about why she shouldn't be with me, about why we would never be good together or work out in any way, and her Liberal girlfriends would likely despise me. ;D
Goodman Games...so sad. Yeah, it seems like a small thing...but it isn't. That's just the weak, delusional, normie mind trying to masturbate themselves that everything is rational and normal.
Goodman Games virtue signaling themselves changing fucking pronouns is like them getting on their knees and asking to get hammered in their ass by the SJW's. ;D So, it really is a big thing. It reflects how weak and spineless and fearful Goodman Games has become, and how eager they are to bow down to the SJW's.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Fantacide on November 11, 2021, 11:27:19 AM
Honestly I stepped away from goodman after reading their con guidelines last year. I think they make their intentions pretty clear. They should have been moved to the red list from the beginning.
Link to Dungeon Con guidelines
https://goodman-games.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/DCO-Policies.pdf
Dungeon Con Online 2021 Code of Conduct - Goodman Games
Edit* whoops wrong link!
That is Full Woke. I was really looking at buying the Core DCC rulebook soon. Thank you for this added detail. Definitely not spending my cash on their products.
Quote from: Myrdin Potter on November 11, 2021, 09:20:37 AM
Both of my daughters play RPG and they both care about use of he exclusively. They understand that the older, axcepted usage of he was meant to be gender neutral, but they don't agree that it is.
The local store I play in is about 30-40% younger women players.
It is quaint that people here are outraged about the change to they/them while insisting that people should not be upset about he/his.
Double quaint that they expect Goodman Games to not want to advertise that they understand and have adjusted.
And everybody in the Bus clapped.
Even granting you everything you wrote that's called anedcdotal evidence. And I would need some real evidence and a breackdown of what they play.
Because I know for a fact that in videogames the "Women are 50% of gamers" claims are lying by omission, yes there's enough women playing video games, but they choose different games than men, because they don't like (as a group, of course there's exceptions) the same type of games as men.
Quote from: Myrdin Potter on November 11, 2021, 09:20:37 AM
Both of my daughters play RPG and they both care about use of he exclusively.
Yeah, but who cares about what your kids think (beyond you).
Meh... I say.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 12:20:23 PM
Quote from: Myrdin Potter on November 11, 2021, 09:20:37 AM
Both of my daughters play RPG and they both care about use of he exclusively. They understand that the older, axcepted usage of he was meant to be gender neutral, but they don't agree that it is.
The local store I play in is about 30-40% younger women players.
It is quaint that people here are outraged about the change to they/them while insisting that people should not be upset about he/his.
Double quaint that they expect Goodman Games to not want to advertise that they understand and have adjusted.
And everybody in the Bus clapped.
Even granting you everything you wrote that's called anedcdotal evidence. And I would need some real evidence and a breackdown of what they play.
Because I know for a fact that in videogames the "Women are 50% of gamers" claims are lying by omission, yes there's enough women playing video games, but they choose different games than men, because they don't like (as a group, of course there's exceptions) the same type of games as men.
Greetings!
*Laughing* Everyone on the bus clapped!!!!!!!
Fucking SALUT! my friend!
Light up a good pipe. Yeah, tell the girls, and? So fucking what. Life is full of things you don't like or don't agree with. Too bad. ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 11, 2021, 12:26:00 PM
Quote from: Myrdin Potter on November 11, 2021, 09:20:37 AM
Both of my daughters play RPG and they both care about use of he exclusively.
Yeah, but who cares about what your kids think (beyond you).
Meh... I say.
It doesn't hurt to care. Try it some time.
Quote from: Zalman on November 11, 2021, 09:07:21 AM
You're referring to DCC's grandstanding right? If it's such a nothingburger, then why does DCC feel the need to soapbox it up?
Pretty obvious who's stirring the storm.
How much are DCC actually talking about it? When I go to the Goodman Games website, I can't see any mention of this issue. Apparently it was mentioned in the "Maw of the Mike" podcast (which I haven't listened to), but the topic isn't mentioned in the description of the podcast.
Quote from: Myrdin Potter on November 11, 2021, 09:20:37 AM
Both of my daughters play RPG and they both care about use of he exclusively. They understand that the older, accepted usage of he was meant to be gender neutral, but they don't agree that it is.
The local store I play in is about 30-40% younger women players.
It is quaint that people here are outraged about the change to they/them while insisting that people should not be upset about he/his.
Double quaint that they expect Goodman Games to not want to advertise that they understand and have adjusted.
Hi, Myrdin. The odd thing to me is that the original AD&D books that I grew up on understood that "he" wasn't generic. Gygax deliberately used "he or she" throughout the books to distinguish, which was progressive for its time. But most people today feel that "he or she" is cumbersome to constantly write or say, and the trend has instead been to use of singular "they". I find it to be easier to use and more natural than "he or she".
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 02:13:24 PM
It doesn't hurt to care. Try it some time.
It does'nt hurt to not give a shit about something so trivial...
Try it some time, you'll feel liberated.
Quote from: Myrdin Potter on November 11, 2021, 09:20:37 AM
It is quaint that people here are outraged about the change to they/them while insisting that people should not be upset about he/his.
The one is just a historical legacy, whilst the other is an attempt at deliberate manipulation. People trying to manipulate me pisses me off.
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 02:13:24 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 11, 2021, 12:26:00 PM
Quote from: Myrdin Potter on November 11, 2021, 09:20:37 AM
Both of my daughters play RPG and they both care about use of he exclusively.
Yeah, but who cares about what your kids think (beyond you).
Meh... I say.
It doesn't hurt to care. Try it some time.
The angriest incels around here don't want to feel or care, it is a defense mechanism that is the only thing that keeps their skullcap waterproof and intact. I'm just happy to know they are most likely never going to meaningfully interact with future generations to pass on the depravity they were likely burdened with by their own families.
I don't give a flying FUCK about half the shit that was important to my parents or grandparents and I'm certainly not going to blink twice when my kids ideals don't reflect my own opinions and beliefs.
Quote from: DefNotAnInsiderNopeNoWay on November 11, 2021, 02:47:25 PM
most likely never going to meaningfully interact with future generations
Me too... I couldn't give a shit about them.
But while I'm alive I'm happy to laugh and never comply with all you woke dweebs with you childish baby shit.
When I'm dead and gone, feel free to whatever you want. But until then, you can all sod off. ;D
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 11, 2021, 02:43:47 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 02:13:24 PM
It doesn't hurt to care. Try it some time.
It does'nt hurt to not give a shit about something so trivial...
Try it some time, you'll feel liberated.
Oh, I already don't care about much of the nonsense that a certain crowd here take way too seriously, so if that what it takes to feel liberated, I'm good.
Quote from: DefNotAnInsiderNopeNoWay on November 11, 2021, 02:47:25 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 02:13:24 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 11, 2021, 12:26:00 PM
Quote from: Myrdin Potter on November 11, 2021, 09:20:37 AM
Both of my daughters play RPG and they both care about use of he exclusively.
Yeah, but who cares about what your kids think (beyond you).
Meh... I say.
It doesn't hurt to care. Try it some time.
The angriest incels around here don't want to feel or care, it is a defense mechanism that is the only thing that keeps their skullcap waterproof and intact. I'm just happy to know they are most likely never going to meaningfully interact with future generations to pass on the depravity they were likely burdened with by their own families.
I don't give a flying FUCK about half the shit that was important to my parents or grandparents and I'm certainly not going to blink twice when my kids ideals don't reflect my own opinions and beliefs.
INCELs... Me thinks the lady doth protest too much.
Who do you think you're hoodwinking? You don't have children and never will.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 11, 2021, 02:43:47 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 02:13:24 PM
It doesn't hurt to care. Try it some time.
It does'nt hurt to not give a shit about something so trivial...
Try it some time, you'll feel liberated.
Why should I care what a tiny portion of the population feel or think? Especially when they aren't my family or friends?
I do care, a lot, about the world I'm leaving for my son and his children, which is why I oppose the woketards at every turn.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 03:05:36 PM
Quote from: DefNotAnInsiderNopeNoWay on November 11, 2021, 02:47:25 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 02:13:24 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 11, 2021, 12:26:00 PM
Quote from: Myrdin Potter on November 11, 2021, 09:20:37 AM
Both of my daughters play RPG and they both care about use of he exclusively.
Yeah, but who cares about what your kids think (beyond you).
Meh... I say.
It doesn't hurt to care. Try it some time.
The angriest incels around here don't want to feel or care, it is a defense mechanism that is the only thing that keeps their skullcap waterproof and intact. I'm just happy to know they are most likely never going to meaningfully interact with future generations to pass on the depravity they were likely burdened with by their own families.
I don't give a flying FUCK about half the shit that was important to my parents or grandparents and I'm certainly not going to blink twice when my kids ideals don't reflect my own opinions and beliefs.
INCELs... Me thinks the lady doth protest too much.
Who do you think you're hoodwinking? You don't have children and never will.
Good insight. Any parent cares deeply that their children have good values. He doesn't have a clue
It really depends upon how they re-write the sentences. With a little effort it isn't all that hard to remove he/she without using They. .
Quote from: Ruprecht on November 11, 2021, 04:09:14 PM
It really depends upon how they re-write the sentences. With a little effort it isn't all that hard to remove he/she without using They. .
The question is : Why should anyone HAVE TO do even that "little effort"?
Quote from: Ruprecht on November 11, 2021, 04:09:14 PM
It really depends upon how they re-write the sentences. With a little effort it isn't all that hard to remove he/she without using They. .
All pronouns are optional, but things get clunky fast if the noun is just used over and over again.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:10:48 PM
Quote from: Ruprecht on November 11, 2021, 04:09:14 PM
It really depends upon how they re-write the sentences. With a little effort it isn't all that hard to remove he/she without using They. .
The question is : Why should anyone HAVE TO do even that "little effort"?
Why is that the question? I don't think anyone believes that Goodman games is doing this against their will. They want to do this, and that's all that really matters. Now, you don't have to buy it if you don't like it, but asking why they have to do this is really the wrong question.
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 04:14:03 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:10:48 PM
Quote from: Ruprecht on November 11, 2021, 04:09:14 PM
It really depends upon how they re-write the sentences. With a little effort it isn't all that hard to remove he/she without using They. .
The question is : Why should anyone HAVE TO do even that "little effort"?
Why is that the question? I don't think anyone believes that Goodman games is doing this against their will. They want to do this, and that's all that really matters. Now, you don't have to buy it if you don't like it, but asking why they have to do this is really the wrong question.
That MIGHT be true of Gooperson games (I doubt it since when they start virtue signaling is to hide something). But the bigger picture necesitates that question answered.
So far the only "answers" provided have been "Muh Inclusivity!" and "Muh Representashun!". But never has it been proven that not doing so really stops anyone from joining a hobby.
If those "arguments" held any water you'd find that not a single straight white male would enjoy Wonder Woman, Black Panther, Shang Chi (the original good comics not the BS new ones or the movie), etc.
The same is true of TTRPGs, why is it that in HispanoAmerica the most popular game is vanilla D&D and not something like Maztica?
That is the underlying question that needs to be answered and so far it hasn't been.
Feel free to disagree, I can't force you to be right and I lack the time/interest to try and convince you of anything.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:29:37 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 04:14:03 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:10:48 PM
Quote from: Ruprecht on November 11, 2021, 04:09:14 PM
It really depends upon how they re-write the sentences. With a little effort it isn't all that hard to remove he/she without using They. .
The question is : Why should anyone HAVE TO do even that "little effort"?
Why is that the question? I don't think anyone believes that Goodman games is doing this against their will. They want to do this, and that's all that really matters. Now, you don't have to buy it if you don't like it, but asking why they have to do this is really the wrong question.
That MIGHT be true of Gooperson games (I doubt it since when they start virtue signaling is to hide something). But the bigger picture necesitates that question answered.
So far the only "answers" provided have been "Muh Inclusivity!" and "Muh Representashun!". But never has it been proven that not doing so really stops anyone from joining a hobby.
If those "arguments" held any water you'd find that not a single straight white male would enjoy Wonder Woman, Black Panther, Shang Chi (the original good comics not the BS new ones or the movie), etc.
The same is true of TTRPGs, why is it that in HispanoAmerica the most popular game is vanilla D&D and not something like Maztica?
That is the underlying question that needs to be answered and so far it hasn't been.
Feel free to disagree, I can't force you to be right and I lack the time/interest to try and convince you of anything.
You're (general you, for many in the thread) the ones needing it answered. They (Goodman and others making such changes) obviously don't feel that need. This is then about you, not them.
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 04:34:23 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:29:37 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 04:14:03 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:10:48 PM
Quote from: Ruprecht on November 11, 2021, 04:09:14 PM
It really depends upon how they re-write the sentences. With a little effort it isn't all that hard to remove he/she without using They. .
The question is : Why should anyone HAVE TO do even that "little effort"?
Why is that the question? I don't think anyone believes that Goodman games is doing this against their will. They want to do this, and that's all that really matters. Now, you don't have to buy it if you don't like it, but asking why they have to do this is really the wrong question.
That MIGHT be true of Gooperson games (I doubt it since when they start virtue signaling is to hide something). But the bigger picture necesitates that question answered.
So far the only "answers" provided have been "Muh Inclusivity!" and "Muh Representashun!". But never has it been proven that not doing so really stops anyone from joining a hobby.
If those "arguments" held any water you'd find that not a single straight white male would enjoy Wonder Woman, Black Panther, Shang Chi (the original good comics not the BS new ones or the movie), etc.
The same is true of TTRPGs, why is it that in HispanoAmerica the most popular game is vanilla D&D and not something like Maztica?
That is the underlying question that needs to be answered and so far it hasn't been.
Feel free to disagree, I can't force you to be right and I lack the time/interest to try and convince you of anything.
You're (general you, for many in the thread) the ones needing it answered. They (Goodman and others making such changes) obviously don't feel that need. This is then about you, not them.
Actually this is about those demanding such changes but you can keep pretending you don't know that.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:43:29 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 04:34:23 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:29:37 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 04:14:03 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:10:48 PM
Quote from: Ruprecht on November 11, 2021, 04:09:14 PM
It really depends upon how they re-write the sentences. With a little effort it isn't all that hard to remove he/she without using They. .
The question is : Why should anyone HAVE TO do even that "little effort"?
Why is that the question? I don't think anyone believes that Goodman games is doing this against their will. They want to do this, and that's all that really matters. Now, you don't have to buy it if you don't like it, but asking why they have to do this is really the wrong question.
That MIGHT be true of Gooperson games (I doubt it since when they start virtue signaling is to hide something). But the bigger picture necesitates that question answered.
So far the only "answers" provided have been "Muh Inclusivity!" and "Muh Representashun!". But never has it been proven that not doing so really stops anyone from joining a hobby.
If those "arguments" held any water you'd find that not a single straight white male would enjoy Wonder Woman, Black Panther, Shang Chi (the original good comics not the BS new ones or the movie), etc.
The same is true of TTRPGs, why is it that in HispanoAmerica the most popular game is vanilla D&D and not something like Maztica?
That is the underlying question that needs to be answered and so far it hasn't been.
Feel free to disagree, I can't force you to be right and I lack the time/interest to try and convince you of anything.
You're (general you, for many in the thread) the ones needing it answered. They (Goodman and others making such changes) obviously don't feel that need. This is then about you, not them.
Actually this is about those demanding such changes but you can keep pretending you don't know that.
What I see here are many demanding others don't make such changes, or at the least denouncing those that do make such choices. If you're going to complain when someone picks a side you don't agree with, you need to realize that you've contributed to hyping up the issue too by virtue/vice-signaling of your own. Try live and let live.
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 04:59:00 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:43:29 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 04:34:23 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:29:37 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 04:14:03 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:10:48 PM
Quote from: Ruprecht on November 11, 2021, 04:09:14 PM
It really depends upon how they re-write the sentences. With a little effort it isn't all that hard to remove he/she without using They. .
The question is : Why should anyone HAVE TO do even that "little effort"?
Why is that the question? I don't think anyone believes that Goodman games is doing this against their will. They want to do this, and that's all that really matters. Now, you don't have to buy it if you don't like it, but asking why they have to do this is really the wrong question.
That MIGHT be true of Gooperson games (I doubt it since when they start virtue signaling is to hide something). But the bigger picture necesitates that question answered.
So far the only "answers" provided have been "Muh Inclusivity!" and "Muh Representashun!". But never has it been proven that not doing so really stops anyone from joining a hobby.
If those "arguments" held any water you'd find that not a single straight white male would enjoy Wonder Woman, Black Panther, Shang Chi (the original good comics not the BS new ones or the movie), etc.
The same is true of TTRPGs, why is it that in HispanoAmerica the most popular game is vanilla D&D and not something like Maztica?
That is the underlying question that needs to be answered and so far it hasn't been.
Feel free to disagree, I can't force you to be right and I lack the time/interest to try and convince you of anything.
You're (general you, for many in the thread) the ones needing it answered. They (Goodman and others making such changes) obviously don't feel that need. This is then about you, not them.
Actually this is about those demanding such changes but you can keep pretending you don't know that.
What I see here are many demanding others don't make such changes, or at the least denouncing those that do make such choices. If you're going to complain when someone picks a side you don't agree with, you need to realize that you've contributed to hyping up the issue too by virtue/vice-signaling of your own. Try live and let live.
Saying "I'm not giving my money to people that do X" =/= Demanding they don't do X.
Feel free to disagree, I can't force you to be right and I lack the time/interest to try and convince you of anything.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 05:01:22 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 04:59:00 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:43:29 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 04:34:23 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:29:37 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 04:14:03 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:10:48 PM
Quote from: Ruprecht on November 11, 2021, 04:09:14 PM
It really depends upon how they re-write the sentences. With a little effort it isn't all that hard to remove he/she without using They. .
The question is : Why should anyone HAVE TO do even that "little effort"?
Why is that the question? I don't think anyone believes that Goodman games is doing this against their will. They want to do this, and that's all that really matters. Now, you don't have to buy it if you don't like it, but asking why they have to do this is really the wrong question.
That MIGHT be true of Gooperson games (I doubt it since when they start virtue signaling is to hide something). But the bigger picture necesitates that question answered.
So far the only "answers" provided have been "Muh Inclusivity!" and "Muh Representashun!". But never has it been proven that not doing so really stops anyone from joining a hobby.
If those "arguments" held any water you'd find that not a single straight white male would enjoy Wonder Woman, Black Panther, Shang Chi (the original good comics not the BS new ones or the movie), etc.
The same is true of TTRPGs, why is it that in HispanoAmerica the most popular game is vanilla D&D and not something like Maztica?
That is the underlying question that needs to be answered and so far it hasn't been.
Feel free to disagree, I can't force you to be right and I lack the time/interest to try and convince you of anything.
You're (general you, for many in the thread) the ones needing it answered. They (Goodman and others making such changes) obviously don't feel that need. This is then about you, not them.
Actually this is about those demanding such changes but you can keep pretending you don't know that.
What I see here are many demanding others don't make such changes, or at the least denouncing those that do make such choices. If you're going to complain when someone picks a side you don't agree with, you need to realize that you've contributed to hyping up the issue too by virtue/vice-signaling of your own. Try live and let live.
Saying "I'm not giving my money to people that do X" =/= Demanding they don't do X.
Feel free to disagree, I can't force you to be right and I lack the time/interest to try and convince you of anything.
It is signaling though, and for what purpose? Are you trying to influence others to do the same? If so, for what purpose? Is it to influence the people that you no longer buy from?
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 05:04:39 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 05:01:22 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 04:59:00 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:43:29 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 04:34:23 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:29:37 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 04:14:03 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:10:48 PM
Quote from: Ruprecht on November 11, 2021, 04:09:14 PM
It really depends upon how they re-write the sentences. With a little effort it isn't all that hard to remove he/she without using They. .
The question is : Why should anyone HAVE TO do even that "little effort"?
Why is that the question? I don't think anyone believes that Goodman games is doing this against their will. They want to do this, and that's all that really matters. Now, you don't have to buy it if you don't like it, but asking why they have to do this is really the wrong question.
That MIGHT be true of Gooperson games (I doubt it since when they start virtue signaling is to hide something). But the bigger picture necesitates that question answered.
So far the only "answers" provided have been "Muh Inclusivity!" and "Muh Representashun!". But never has it been proven that not doing so really stops anyone from joining a hobby.
If those "arguments" held any water you'd find that not a single straight white male would enjoy Wonder Woman, Black Panther, Shang Chi (the original good comics not the BS new ones or the movie), etc.
The same is true of TTRPGs, why is it that in HispanoAmerica the most popular game is vanilla D&D and not something like Maztica?
That is the underlying question that needs to be answered and so far it hasn't been.
Feel free to disagree, I can't force you to be right and I lack the time/interest to try and convince you of anything.
You're (general you, for many in the thread) the ones needing it answered. They (Goodman and others making such changes) obviously don't feel that need. This is then about you, not them.
Actually this is about those demanding such changes but you can keep pretending you don't know that.
What I see here are many demanding others don't make such changes, or at the least denouncing those that do make such choices. If you're going to complain when someone picks a side you don't agree with, you need to realize that you've contributed to hyping up the issue too by virtue/vice-signaling of your own. Try live and let live.
Saying "I'm not giving my money to people that do X" =/= Demanding they don't do X.
Feel free to disagree, I can't force you to be right and I lack the time/interest to try and convince you of anything.
It is signaling though, and for what purpose? Are you trying to influence others to do the same? If so, for what purpose? Is it to influence the people that you no longer buy from?
That's a very dishonest question.
Have I ever said if they backtrack I'll give them money?
Have I ever tried to organize a writting campaign to the companies/shops?
You're confalting us with the side that does those things. And still won't give them any money after they bend the knee.
The woke hate me, they think my mixed race marriage shouldn't exist, they think I should only enjoy stuff made by people that look like me.
So, once a company is corroborated as woke, why would I want them to stop being openly woke?
They are saving me money that won't go to whatever hate promoting cause/movement they care to fund.
Here are some money quotes from the DCC con guidelines: https://goodman-games.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/DCO-Policies.pdf
"This policy was based on the existing XOXO Community Code of Conduct, which is itself based on resources provided by Geek Feminism, and borrows heavily from similar open source policies authored by JSConf AU and Django."
>> Feminism
"Offensive comments related to gender, gender identity and expression, sexual orientation, disability, mental illness, neurotype, physical appearance, body, age, race, ethnicity, nationality, language, or religion"
>> Neurotype? WTF
"Deliberate use of incorrect name or pronouns, including misgendering
"Respect player pronouns and character pronouns; routinely reaffirm these throughout play and at the start of each session"
>> Pronouns. Jordan Peterson, you are not welcome here!
"Respect player autonomy and practice regular check-ins to affirm enthusiastic agreement of game development"
>> Regular check-ins to affirm enthusiastic agreement of game development. Wow. DCC is so old school.
DCC is a big joke!
Quote from: Myrdin Potter on November 11, 2021, 09:20:37 AM
Both of my daughters play RPG and they both care about use of he exclusively. They understand that the older, accepted usage of he was meant to be gender neutral, but they don't agree that it is.
The local store I play in is about 30-40% younger women players.
It is quaint that people here are outraged about the change to they/them while insisting that people should not be upset about he/his.
Double quaint that they expect Goodman Games to not want to advertise that they understand and have adjusted.
Just out of interest, both of your daughters are going to buy copies of the new DCC RPG book, right?
I mean it was re written especially for them so the least they could do is to buy a copy each.
;D
Quote from: 1989 on November 11, 2021, 05:17:25 PM
Here are some money quotes from the DCC con guidelines: https://goodman-games.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/DCO-Policies.pdf
"This policy was based on the existing XOXO Community Code of Conduct, which is itself based on resources provided by Geek Feminism, and borrows heavily from similar open source policies authored by JSConf AU and Django."
>> Feminism
"Offensive comments related to gender, gender identity and expression, sexual orientation, disability, mental illness, neurotype, physical appearance, body, age, race, ethnicity, nationality, language, or religion"
>> Neurotype? WTF
"Deliberate use of incorrect name or pronouns, including misgendering
"Respect player pronouns and character pronouns; routinely reaffirm these throughout play and at the start of each session"
>> Pronouns. Jordan Peterson, you are not welcome here!
"Respect player autonomy and practice regular check-ins to affirm enthusiastic agreement of game development"
>> Regular check-ins to affirm enthusiastic agreement of game development. Wow. DCC is so old school. What a joke.
DCC is a big joke!
Does calling/emailing/texting your players between sessions and accepting feedback satisfy "regular check-ins" as they suggest? If so, I've been doing that for decades.
Quote from: 1989 on November 11, 2021, 05:17:25 PM
Here are some money quotes from the DCC con guidelines: https://goodman-games.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/DCO-Policies.pdf
"This policy was based on the existing XOXO Community Code of Conduct, which is itself based on resources provided by Geek Feminism, and borrows heavily from similar open source policies authored by JSConf AU and Django."
>> Feminism
"Offensive comments related to gender, gender identity and expression, sexual orientation, disability, mental illness, neurotype, physical appearance, body, age, race, ethnicity, nationality, language, or religion"
>> Neurotype? WTF
"Deliberate use of incorrect name or pronouns, including misgendering
"Respect player pronouns and character pronouns; routinely reaffirm these throughout play and at the start of each session"
>> Pronouns. Jordan Peterson, you are not welcome here!
"Respect player autonomy and practice regular check-ins to affirm enthusiastic agreement of game development"
>> Regular check-ins to affirm enthusiastic agreement of game development. Wow. DCC is so old school.
DCC is a big joke!
I for one appreciate they going full woke in such a public fashion, saves me money. Never buying anything from them again and Occule should move them to Red.
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 05:22:22 PM
Quote from: 1989 on November 11, 2021, 05:17:25 PM
Here are some money quotes from the DCC con guidelines: https://goodman-games.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/DCO-Policies.pdf
"This policy was based on the existing XOXO Community Code of Conduct, which is itself based on resources provided by Geek Feminism, and borrows heavily from similar open source policies authored by JSConf AU and Django."
>> Feminism
"Offensive comments related to gender, gender identity and expression, sexual orientation, disability, mental illness, neurotype, physical appearance, body, age, race, ethnicity, nationality, language, or religion"
>> Neurotype? WTF
"Deliberate use of incorrect name or pronouns, including misgendering
"Respect player pronouns and character pronouns; routinely reaffirm these throughout play and at the start of each session"
>> Pronouns. Jordan Peterson, you are not welcome here!
"Respect player autonomy and practice regular check-ins to affirm enthusiastic agreement of game development"
>> Regular check-ins to affirm enthusiastic agreement of game development. Wow. DCC is so old school. What a joke.
DCC is a big joke!
Does calling/emailing/texting your players between sessions and accepting feedback satisfy "regular check-ins" as they suggest? If so, I've been doing that for decades.
I do that too. Sometimes they have enthusiastic agreement with respect to how the game is developing. Other times (fortunately rarely) they might not be so happy (like when a PC meets their demise). Fuck beans, we were doing that back in the 70s.
Of course, I have a carefully curated group of players. I cannot even begin to imagine what it would be like to play with a bunch of randos at a con.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:29:37 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 04:14:03 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:10:48 PM
Quote from: Ruprecht on November 11, 2021, 04:09:14 PM
It really depends upon how they re-write the sentences. With a little effort it isn't all that hard to remove he/she without using They. .
The question is : Why should anyone HAVE TO do even that "little effort"?
Why is that the question? I don't think anyone believes that Goodman games is doing this against their will. They want to do this, and that's all that really matters. Now, you don't have to buy it if you don't like it, but asking why they have to do this is really the wrong question.
That MIGHT be true of Gooperson games (I doubt it since when they start virtue signaling is to hide something). But the bigger picture necesitates that question answered.
So far the only "answers" provided have been "Muh Inclusivity!" and "Muh Representashun!". But never has it been proven that not doing so really stops anyone from joining a hobby.
If those "arguments" held any water you'd find that not a single straight white male would enjoy Wonder Woman, Black Panther, Shang Chi (the original good comics not the BS new ones or the movie), etc.
The same is true of TTRPGs, why is it that in HispanoAmerica the most popular game is vanilla D&D and not something like Maztica?
That is the underlying question that needs to be answered and so far it hasn't been.
Feel free to disagree, I can't force you to be right and I lack the time/interest to try and convince you of anything.
They aren't trying to hide anything. Go look at their Con guidelines and you'll see how far gone they are.
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 04:59:00 PM
What I see here are many demanding others don't make such changes, or at the least denouncing those that do make such choices. If you're going to complain when someone picks a side you don't agree with, you need to realize that you've contributed to hyping up the issue too by virtue/vice-signaling of your own. Try live and let live.
Oh the irony! Or is it projection? Whatever
Quote from: Fantacide on November 11, 2021, 06:07:49 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:29:37 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 04:14:03 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:10:48 PM
Quote from: Ruprecht on November 11, 2021, 04:09:14 PM
It really depends upon how they re-write the sentences. With a little effort it isn't all that hard to remove he/she without using They. .
The question is : Why should anyone HAVE TO do even that "little effort"?
Why is that the question? I don't think anyone believes that Goodman games is doing this against their will. They want to do this, and that's all that really matters. Now, you don't have to buy it if you don't like it, but asking why they have to do this is really the wrong question.
That MIGHT be true of Gooperson games (I doubt it since when they start virtue signaling is to hide something). But the bigger picture necesitates that question answered.
So far the only "answers" provided have been "Muh Inclusivity!" and "Muh Representashun!". But never has it been proven that not doing so really stops anyone from joining a hobby.
If those "arguments" held any water you'd find that not a single straight white male would enjoy Wonder Woman, Black Panther, Shang Chi (the original good comics not the BS new ones or the movie), etc.
The same is true of TTRPGs, why is it that in HispanoAmerica the most popular game is vanilla D&D and not something like Maztica?
That is the underlying question that needs to be answered and so far it hasn't been.
Feel free to disagree, I can't force you to be right and I lack the time/interest to try and convince you of anything.
They aren't trying to hide anything. Go look at their Con guidelines and you'll see how far gone they are.
What I meant is : "The harder they virtue signal the more squeletons in their closet"
They are trying to hide them being sex pests, racists, bigots, etc.
or all of the above
Quote from: DCC Grandstanding
"Respect player pronouns and character pronouns; routinely reaffirm these throughout play and at the start of each session"
"Respect player autonomy and practice regular check-ins to affirm enthusiastic agreement of game development"
Are these real? Just wow.
It was given out before their 2nd online con. It's ridiculous.
The real question to me is why announce this sort of thing? If you are going to have a new version of the game you should have a bit more than pronounce to justify it. If you are changing it just for the pronouns you are chasing a market that is micro or doesn't exist.
Quote from: jhkim on November 11, 2021, 02:41:38 PMGygax deliberately used "he or she" throughout the books to distinguish, which was progressive for its time.
Wasn't OD&D neutral he? For 1st edition AD&D and the Basic set, TSR switched to "he or she" in an attempt to appeal to a larger percentage of the female market. I suspect this was under expert advice. I also suspect it made no difference. For 2nd edition and the Rules Cyclopedia they went back to neutral he with a boilerplate pronoun note in the intro. Then with 3rd edition, it was back to "he or she" up to 5th. Will 5.5/6th edition switch now to "they?" Who knows?
The idea that the female market won't buy RPGs was soundly refuted by the sales of Vampire. It's D&D that female players have historically shied away from; due to negative stereotyping in popular culture for the most part. In recent years, those stereotypes have fallen out of fashion, so the modern player base is more representative. However, this change in representation is clearly uncorrelated with pronoun usage in the books.
Quote from: mightybrain on November 11, 2021, 08:48:21 PM
The idea that the female market won't buy RPGs was soundly refuted by the sales of Vampire. It's D&D that female players have historically shied away from; due to negative stereotyping in popular culture for the most part. In recent years, those stereotypes have fallen out of fashion, so the modern player base is more representative. However, this change in representation is clearly uncorrelated with pronoun usage in the books.
Not sure about that last part... Vampire (and White Wolf) did not use the generic "he." They would alternate between "he" and "she" randomly, which was unheard of at the time. I suspect this was one of the reasons (but not the main one) why the book appealed to a female audience.
Quote from: mightybrain on November 11, 2021, 08:48:21 PM
Wasn't OD&D neutral he? For 1st edition AD&D and the Basic set, TSR switched to "he or she" in an attempt to appeal to a larger percentage of the female market. I suspect this was under expert advice. I also suspect it made no difference. For 2nd edition and the Rules Cyclopedia they went back to neutral he with a boilerplate pronoun note in the intro. Then with 3rd edition, it was back to "he or she" up to 5th. Will 5.5/6th edition switch now to "they?" Who knows?
D&D has specifically referred to adventurers as female since since 3rd edition, as far as I can remember. It is sometimes hard to find examples of pronoun usage since generally rules text is better to refer to more rule-specific identifiers (e.g. the Paladin) rather than pronouns. But you will find "her" here and there.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on November 10, 2021, 07:49:40 AM
Quote from: dkabq on November 10, 2021, 07:18:46 AMThat's where I am at. I don't know if changing pronouns will bring more women into DCC, but it seems innocuous. That said, it does have the potential to be a step onto the slippery slope.
Any woman, or guy for that matter, that will only play a game if it uses politically correct pronouns isn't a person you would want to join your game or hobby in the first place.
I couldn't agree more. We don't want or need these people in the hobby. We need more gatekeeping.
Quote from: DoctorGlocktor on November 12, 2021, 05:06:00 AM
I couldn't agree more. We don't want or need these people in the hobby. We need more gatekeeping.
This why I'd like to see very clear demarcation between the two factions.
Let the dweebs and gimps have as many pronouns, wheelchairs, forced diversitaay or whatever as they want. That's fine! Just stay away from anyone who just wants to play and enjoy their games.
Thing is, we empower those companies by buying their material. The red list has been a great way to sterilize the hobby (for us at least) ;D. Don't give these peeps your money. Make sure it goes to the creators/companies you want to flourish.
And let the other little bed wetters of the hobby have their own little corner to piss in. Fook 'em!
Quote from: Aglondir on November 11, 2021, 09:15:11 PM
Not sure about that last part... Vampire (and White Wolf) did not use the generic "he." They would alternate between "he" and "she" randomly, which was unheard of at the time. I suspect this was one of the reasons (but not the main one) why the book appealed to a female audience.
As already pointed out, 1st edition AD&D, BX, and BECMI already had used "he or she" throughout in the decade prior to VtM and yet did not bring all the girls to yard.
Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 04:36:33 PM
In general, English isn't closely prescribed - and usage will vary, especially in conversation and non-formal writing like fiction and RPGs.
RPG books are rules documents - a kind of formal writing. Any professional writers, editors, and publishers worth their salt adhere to a style guide. Something like the Chicago Manual of Style. And 'they' as a singular pronoun is increasingly being recognized in professional style guides. The last three companies I've worked for - two of them oil and gas companies - did not use gendered pronouns in their documentation.
Goodman are doing nothing more than adopting the new norms of language. It might satisfy the tribal allegiances of some here if DCC defied those norms. But it's a businesses trying to meet market and professional standards, not a political actor flying the flag of some faction of fandom.
DP
Quote from: Haffrung on November 12, 2021, 06:15:50 AM
Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 04:36:33 PM
In general, English isn't closely prescribed - and usage will vary, especially in conversation and non-formal writing like fiction and RPGs.
RPG books are rules documents - a kind of formal writing. Any professional writers, editors, and publishers worth their salt adhere to a style guide. Something like the Chicago Manual of Style. And 'they' as a singular pronoun is increasingly being recognized in professional style guides. The last three companies I've worked for - two of them oil and gas companies - did not use gendered pronouns in their documentation.
Goodman are doing nothing more than adopting the new norms of language. It might satisfy the tribal allegiances of some here if DCC defied those norms. But it's a businesses trying to meet market and professional standards, not a political actor flying the flag of some faction of fandom.
Bollox... It's completely unnecessary. Who defines what a professional standard is by the way? They were already doing that. Woke Scolds don't define what professional standards are. New norms? Again totally unnecessary.
At least call it what it is - A company trying to 'cash in' with the woke crowd, by way of 'announced' virtue signalling and pandering.
Quote from: Haffrung on November 12, 2021, 06:15:50 AM
Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 04:36:33 PM
In general, English isn't closely prescribed - and usage will vary, especially in conversation and non-formal writing like fiction and RPGs.
RPG books are rules documents - a kind of formal writing. Any professional writers, editors, and publishers worth their salt adhere to a style guide. Something like the Chicago Manual of Style. And 'they' as a singular pronoun is increasingly being recognized in professional style guides.
Goodman are doing nothing more than adopting the new norms of language. It might satisfy the tribal allegiances of some here if DCC defied those norms. But it's a businesses trying to meet market and professional standards, not a political actor flying the flag of some faction of fandom.
That's a valid argument. But I have to say that I am surprised that rather than apply that new style to new products or old products edited for re-release., they are planning reedit their entire catalog. To me, that seems to go beyond the argument of, "just adhering to an updated style guide", especially when you pair it with their woke convention guidelines (is there an argument that they are not woke?).
I do not go to conventions, so it doesn't impact me (other than in terms of "...when they came for the convention-goers, I wasn't one so I said nothing"). And "they" instead "he", "she", "he/she", or "he or she" does not bother me. And if GG wants to put their money into editing old material to remove "he" and add "they", that is GG's call on how to spend their money. As long as no other woke-ness carries over into future material, I can live with that -- YMMV. And if it does, I just stop buying. And my DCC campaign carries forward regardless, as I only need the rule-book, which I have.
Quote from: Haffrung on November 12, 2021, 06:15:50 AM
Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 04:36:33 PM
In general, English isn't closely prescribed - and usage will vary, especially in conversation and non-formal writing like fiction and RPGs.
RPG books are rules documents - a kind of formal writing. Any professional writers, editors, and publishers worth their salt adhere to a style guide. Something like the Chicago Manual of Style. And 'they' as a singular pronoun is increasingly being recognized in professional style guides. The last three companies I've worked for - two of them oil and gas companies - did not use gendered pronouns in their documentation.
Goodman are doing nothing more than adopting the new norms of language. It might satisfy the tribal allegiances of some here if DCC defied those norms. But it's a businesses trying to meet market and professional standards, not a political actor flying the flag of some faction of fandom.
The norms of language are dictated by majority use, only a very small percentage of the population uses those "new norms". Nope, they are virtue signaling as proven by their convention document.
Quote from: mightybrain on November 12, 2021, 05:37:45 AM
Quote from: Aglondir on November 11, 2021, 09:15:11 PM
Not sure about that last part... Vampire (and White Wolf) did not use the generic "he." They would alternate between "he" and "she" randomly, which was unheard of at the time. I suspect this was one of the reasons (but not the main one) why the book appealed to a female audience.
As already pointed out, 1st edition AD&D, BX, and BECMI already had used "he or she" throughout in the decade prior to VtM and yet did not bring all the girls to yard.
Because, as hard as the woketards wish this wasn't true, women and men have (in general) different tastes/interests regarding work/hobbies/etc.
And that's okay, as long as there's not a barrier preventing me to become a nurse due to my sex I'm perfectly fine with most nurses being female.
Just like I'm perfectly fine with 99% of the market demgraphic for romance novels being females.
There's no reason (nor a way) to make everything 50/50. Except by force, forcing people to do shit they don't want to do in the name of equality.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 12, 2021, 11:06:35 AM
There's no reason (nor a way) to make everything 50/50. Except by force, forcing people to do shit they don't want to do in the name of equality.
Well, we've seen the attempt to convince people that the disparity is primarily due to some kind of -ism in the existing fanbase.
But yeah, that attempt has failed to produce any results. As pointed out, nerd hobbies going mainstream did that heavy lifting.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 12, 2021, 05:21:26 AM
Quote from: DoctorGlocktor on November 12, 2021, 05:06:00 AM
I couldn't agree more. We don't want or need these people in the hobby. We need more gatekeeping.
This why I'd like to see very clear demarcation between the two factions.
Let the dweebs and gimps have as many pronouns, wheelchairs, forced diversitaay or whatever as they want. That's fine! Just stay away from anyone who just wants to play and enjoy their games.
Thing is, we empower those companies by buying their material. The red list has been a great way to sterilize the hobby (for us at least) ;D. Don't give these peeps your money. Make sure it goes to the creators/companies you want to flourish.
And let the other little bed wetters of the hobby have their own little corner to piss in. Fook 'em!
Greetings!
*Laughing* "Fook 'em" is right, my friend! Very true. I agree. We need to gatekeep these whining jackasses hard. I just love that. For anyone that thinks the use of special fucking pronouns is a good thing, why would we want such people in our hobby? And, well, we certainly do not need them in our hobby, either.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 12, 2021, 11:02:29 AM
The norms of language are dictated by majority use, only a very small percentage of the population uses those "new norms". Nope, they are virtue signaling as proven by their convention document.
The norms of colloquial language use and the standards of formal, professional language are not the same thing.
I write and edit user manuals for a living. We follow professional standards. And the standards DCC are adopting have become the norm in the professional world today. Not just in college HR policies, but in corporate and industrial communications. If Goodman handed their books to some random contractor to edit, the text would likely come back with 'they' employed as a singular pronoun.
Which doesn't mean Goodman isn't engaging in virtue signalling by making a big deal about it. But anyone who thinks using 'they' as a singular pronoun is fringe or going away is mistaken. It's already standard usage in dictionaries, style guides, and the corporate world.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 12, 2021, 11:58:59 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 12, 2021, 11:06:35 AM
There's no reason (nor a way) to make everything 50/50. Except by force, forcing people to do shit they don't want to do in the name of equality.
Well, we've seen the attempt to convince people that the disparity is primarily due to some kind of -ism in the existing fanbase.
But yeah, that attempt has failed to produce any results. As pointed out, nerd hobbies going mainstream did that heavy lifting.
Yeah, and pointing to facts/reality makes you an istophobe.
If the woketards really wanted to have more people of group X playing/developing RPGs they would run games for poor people of group X and later donate the books/dice to the players so they can keep on playing without them. But then they wouldn't be woketards.
Not a single dickhead here has been able to say how are they going to overcome the cultural pressure among the black community against certain activities that are regarded as "acting white".
That's black people gatekeeping other black people from partaking on those activities because somehow that's "acting white".
Even the racist and race grifter Tanahesi Coates says he grew up playing D&D, but then again I don't think he grew up in the inner city.
But tackling the real gatekeepers means tackling what to them must be aking to black on black crime. And the other woketards that seem to think that telling everybody that going to your LGS as a woman will get you at least rejected and at worst raped will somehow increase the number of women in the hobby.
And if their retarded tactics fail it's because of those evul muhhsoggyknerds.
Double down on the retarded tactics, rinse and repeat ad infinitum.
Quote from: Haffrung on November 12, 2021, 12:11:34 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 12, 2021, 11:02:29 AM
The norms of language are dictated by majority use, only a very small percentage of the population uses those "new norms". Nope, they are virtue signaling as proven by their convention document.
The norms of colloquial language use and the standards of formal, professional language are not the same thing.
I write and edit user manuals for a living. We follow professional standards. And the standards DCC are adopting have become the norm in the professional world today. Not just in college HR policies, but in corporate and industrial communications. If Goodman handed their books to some random contractor to edit, the text would likely come back with 'they' employed as a singular pronoun.
Which doesn't mean Goodman isn't engaging in virtue signalling by making a big deal about it. But anyone who thinks using 'they' as a singular pronoun is fringe or going away is mistaken. It's already standard usage in dictionaries, style guides, and the corporate world.
Because the "professional world" lacks brains and balls. Professional norms are derived from colloqial norms regarding writing. Which is why you write a manual in such a way a layman would understand it and not in technical jargon.
But do keep trying to deny reality.
Quote from: SHARK on November 12, 2021, 12:07:58 PMWe need to gatekeep these whining jackasses hard.
Just write biological determinism into your rules and use neutral male pronouns and they'll gatekeep themselves it seems.
Quote from: mightybrain on November 12, 2021, 12:34:30 PM
Quote from: SHARK on November 12, 2021, 12:07:58 PMWe need to gatekeep these whining jackasses hard.
Just write biological determinism into your rules and use neutral male pronouns and they'll gatekeep themselves it seems.
So, racial modifiers and write as we have always done. They won't buy my stuff for sure, doesn't mean they'll shut the fuck up, not until the big boys get some balls and start telling them to go fuck themselves.
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 04:59:00 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:43:29 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 04:34:23 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:29:37 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 04:14:03 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:10:48 PM
Quote from: Ruprecht on November 11, 2021, 04:09:14 PM
It really depends upon how they re-write the sentences. With a little effort it isn't all that hard to remove he/she without using They. .
The question is : Why should anyone HAVE TO do even that "little effort"?
Why is that the question? I don't think anyone believes that Goodman games is doing this against their will. They want to do this, and that's all that really matters. Now, you don't have to buy it if you don't like it, but asking why they have to do this is really the wrong question.
That MIGHT be true of Gooperson games (I doubt it since when they start virtue signaling is to hide something). But the bigger picture necesitates that question answered.
So far the only "answers" provided have been "Muh Inclusivity!" and "Muh Representashun!". But never has it been proven that not doing so really stops anyone from joining a hobby.
If those "arguments" held any water you'd find that not a single straight white male would enjoy Wonder Woman, Black Panther, Shang Chi (the original good comics not the BS new ones or the movie), etc.
The same is true of TTRPGs, why is it that in HispanoAmerica the most popular game is vanilla D&D and not something like Maztica?
That is the underlying question that needs to be answered and so far it hasn't been.
Feel free to disagree, I can't force you to be right and I lack the time/interest to try and convince you of anything.
You're (general you, for many in the thread) the ones needing it answered. They (Goodman and others making such changes) obviously don't feel that need. This is then about you, not them.
Actually this is about those demanding such changes but you can keep pretending you don't know that.
What I see here are many demanding others don't make such changes, or at the least denouncing those that do make such choices. If you're going to complain when someone picks a side you don't agree with, you need to realize that you've contributed to hyping up the issue too by virtue/vice-signaling of your own. Try live and let live.
It's funny how this bullshit claim is always given by people on the left directed to people on the right, when it's convenient. While they wait until they can criminally enforce "Silence is Violence".
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 05:33:24 PM
Quote from: 1989 on November 11, 2021, 05:17:25 PM
Here are some money quotes from the DCC con guidelines: https://goodman-games.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/DCO-Policies.pdf
"This policy was based on the existing XOXO Community Code of Conduct, which is itself based on resources provided by Geek Feminism, and borrows heavily from similar open source policies authored by JSConf AU and Django."
>> Feminism
"Offensive comments related to gender, gender identity and expression, sexual orientation, disability, mental illness, neurotype, physical appearance, body, age, race, ethnicity, nationality, language, or religion"
>> Neurotype? WTF
"Deliberate use of incorrect name or pronouns, including misgendering
"Respect player pronouns and character pronouns; routinely reaffirm these throughout play and at the start of each session"
>> Pronouns. Jordan Peterson, you are not welcome here!
"Respect player autonomy and practice regular check-ins to affirm enthusiastic agreement of game development"
>> Regular check-ins to affirm enthusiastic agreement of game development. Wow. DCC is so old school.
DCC is a big joke!
I for one appreciate they going full woke in such a public fashion, saves me money. Never buying anything from them again and Occule should move them to Red.
Except they're not doing it very publicly. Goodman is hoping to play both sides, making very carefully directed social media posts declaring their allegiance to Pol Pot School Social Justice, while on their main advertising areas and general postings they still act like they're just hardcore badass gaming for regular gamers.
Which is why various lefties are on here demanding we shut up or trying to convince us it's all silly and doesn't matter so pretty please don't keep drawing attention to this.
Because if it gets repeated over and over again, what Goodman has declared they believe in now, they will face a backlash from regular gamers, and we all know the SJW gamers will give a lot of tweets of support but not buy a damn thing, because they never actually wanted to play DCC (they just wanted DCC as it was to cease to exist). So if their new commitment to radical terrorist leftism is made clear, they'll either bankrupt themselves or they'll disavow their statements ("the con guidelines were the actions of a single employee etc etc").
Quote from: Haffrung on November 12, 2021, 06:15:50 AM
Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 04:36:33 PM
In general, English isn't closely prescribed - and usage will vary, especially in conversation and non-formal writing like fiction and RPGs.
RPG books are rules documents - a kind of formal writing. Any professional writers, editors, and publishers worth their salt adhere to a style guide. Something like the Chicago Manual of Style. And 'they' as a singular pronoun is increasingly being recognized in professional style guides. The last three companies I've worked for - two of them oil and gas companies - did not use gendered pronouns in their documentation.
Goodman are doing nothing more than adopting the new norms of language. It might satisfy the tribal allegiances of some here if DCC defied those norms. But it's a businesses trying to meet market and professional standards, not a political actor flying the flag of some faction of fandom.
Their Con guidelines beg to differ. They're apparently proudly flying the flag of "geek feminism" and "player autonomy" (ie. Forge bullshit where players get veto power over the GM).
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 03:40:24 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 04:59:00 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:43:29 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 04:34:23 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:29:37 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 04:14:03 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:10:48 PM
Quote from: Ruprecht on November 11, 2021, 04:09:14 PM
It really depends upon how they re-write the sentences. With a little effort it isn't all that hard to remove he/she without using They. .
The question is : Why should anyone HAVE TO do even that "little effort"?
Why is that the question? I don't think anyone believes that Goodman games is doing this against their will. They want to do this, and that's all that really matters. Now, you don't have to buy it if you don't like it, but asking why they have to do this is really the wrong question.
That MIGHT be true of Gooperson games (I doubt it since when they start virtue signaling is to hide something). But the bigger picture necesitates that question answered.
So far the only "answers" provided have been "Muh Inclusivity!" and "Muh Representashun!". But never has it been proven that not doing so really stops anyone from joining a hobby.
If those "arguments" held any water you'd find that not a single straight white male would enjoy Wonder Woman, Black Panther, Shang Chi (the original good comics not the BS new ones or the movie), etc.
The same is true of TTRPGs, why is it that in HispanoAmerica the most popular game is vanilla D&D and not something like Maztica?
That is the underlying question that needs to be answered and so far it hasn't been.
Feel free to disagree, I can't force you to be right and I lack the time/interest to try and convince you of anything.
You're (general you, for many in the thread) the ones needing it answered. They (Goodman and others making such changes) obviously don't feel that need. This is then about you, not them.
Actually this is about those demanding such changes but you can keep pretending you don't know that.
What I see here are many demanding others don't make such changes, or at the least denouncing those that do make such choices. If you're going to complain when someone picks a side you don't agree with, you need to realize that you've contributed to hyping up the issue too by virtue/vice-signaling of your own. Try live and let live.
It's funny how this bullshit claim is always given by people on the left directed to people on the right, when it's convenient. While they wait until they can criminally enforce "Silence is Violence".
Are you suggesting I'm planning to do that? If so, you're quite wrong. But, by all means, stick to character.
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 03:51:10 PM
Quote from: Haffrung on November 12, 2021, 06:15:50 AM
Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 04:36:33 PM
In general, English isn't closely prescribed - and usage will vary, especially in conversation and non-formal writing like fiction and RPGs.
RPG books are rules documents - a kind of formal writing. Any professional writers, editors, and publishers worth their salt adhere to a style guide. Something like the Chicago Manual of Style. And 'they' as a singular pronoun is increasingly being recognized in professional style guides. The last three companies I've worked for - two of them oil and gas companies - did not use gendered pronouns in their documentation.
Goodman are doing nothing more than adopting the new norms of language. It might satisfy the tribal allegiances of some here if DCC defied those norms. But it's a businesses trying to meet market and professional standards, not a political actor flying the flag of some faction of fandom.
Their Con guidelines beg to differ. They're apparently proudly flying the flag of "geek feminism" and "player autonomy" (ie. Forge bullshit where players get veto power over the GM).
Players always have a degree of veto power over the GM. They can choose not to play, and if enough of them choose that, the GM now has a playerless game. The players can then put together the game they want, and if the GM is too much of an ass about the whole thing, they might not be invited to join. That applies beyond games too...there's a degree of veto power in almost any social group activity.
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 03:52:21 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 03:40:24 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 04:59:00 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:43:29 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 04:34:23 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:29:37 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 04:14:03 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:10:48 PM
Quote from: Ruprecht on November 11, 2021, 04:09:14 PM
It really depends upon how they re-write the sentences. With a little effort it isn't all that hard to remove he/she without using They. .
The question is : Why should anyone HAVE TO do even that "little effort"?
Why is that the question? I don't think anyone believes that Goodman games is doing this against their will. They want to do this, and that's all that really matters. Now, you don't have to buy it if you don't like it, but asking why they have to do this is really the wrong question.
That MIGHT be true of Gooperson games (I doubt it since when they start virtue signaling is to hide something). But the bigger picture necesitates that question answered.
So far the only "answers" provided have been "Muh Inclusivity!" and "Muh Representashun!". But never has it been proven that not doing so really stops anyone from joining a hobby.
If those "arguments" held any water you'd find that not a single straight white male would enjoy Wonder Woman, Black Panther, Shang Chi (the original good comics not the BS new ones or the movie), etc.
The same is true of TTRPGs, why is it that in HispanoAmerica the most popular game is vanilla D&D and not something like Maztica?
That is the underlying question that needs to be answered and so far it hasn't been.
Feel free to disagree, I can't force you to be right and I lack the time/interest to try and convince you of anything.
You're (general you, for many in the thread) the ones needing it answered. They (Goodman and others making such changes) obviously don't feel that need. This is then about you, not them.
Actually this is about those demanding such changes but you can keep pretending you don't know that.
What I see here are many demanding others don't make such changes, or at the least denouncing those that do make such choices. If you're going to complain when someone picks a side you don't agree with, you need to realize that you've contributed to hyping up the issue too by virtue/vice-signaling of your own. Try live and let live.
It's funny how this bullshit claim is always given by people on the left directed to people on the right, when it's convenient. While they wait until they can criminally enforce "Silence is Violence".
Are you suggesting I'm planning to do that? If so, you're quite wrong. But, by all means, stick to character.
I'm saying you're here, arguing against traditional gaming to regular gamers, not arguing over in left-wing forums at communist gamers about why they should stop trying to ruin the hobby. And worse, you're here making your argument in an utterly transparently-fake "what's the big deal? So why do you care? I obviously don't care; I'm here talking about this in every thread trying to convince or shame people into not fighting back against the Leftist deconstruction of society in every single thread, but I totally don't care even a little". It's an insult that you think anyone here can't see through that.
I think what side you want winning is pretty fucking clear.
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 03:55:22 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 03:51:10 PM
Quote from: Haffrung on November 12, 2021, 06:15:50 AM
Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 04:36:33 PM
In general, English isn't closely prescribed - and usage will vary, especially in conversation and non-formal writing like fiction and RPGs.
RPG books are rules documents - a kind of formal writing. Any professional writers, editors, and publishers worth their salt adhere to a style guide. Something like the Chicago Manual of Style. And 'they' as a singular pronoun is increasingly being recognized in professional style guides. The last three companies I've worked for - two of them oil and gas companies - did not use gendered pronouns in their documentation.
Goodman are doing nothing more than adopting the new norms of language. It might satisfy the tribal allegiances of some here if DCC defied those norms. But it's a businesses trying to meet market and professional standards, not a political actor flying the flag of some faction of fandom.
Their Con guidelines beg to differ. They're apparently proudly flying the flag of "geek feminism" and "player autonomy" (ie. Forge bullshit where players get veto power over the GM).
Players always have a degree of veto power over the GM. They can choose not to play, and if enough of them choose that, the GM now has a playerless game. The players can then put together the game they want, and if the GM is too much of an ass about the whole thing, they might not be invited to join. That applies beyond games too...there's a degree of veto power in almost any social group activity.
That is very clearly not what they mean here. What they mean here is that any player can stop the game at any time and make any kind of demand about things that should be taken out or put into the game or that the GM change a ruling for any reason, because this is a "collaborative storytelling game" run by the players, not the GM and he doesn't have the authority to do anything without the player's "consent".
Which is all bullshit. The one and ONLY "right" that a player has at the table is the right to walk away whenever they like. That's the entire nature of the social contract in a regular gaming table.
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 03:58:59 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 03:52:21 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 03:40:24 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 04:59:00 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:43:29 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 04:34:23 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:29:37 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 04:14:03 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:10:48 PM
Quote from: Ruprecht on November 11, 2021, 04:09:14 PM
It really depends upon how they re-write the sentences. With a little effort it isn't all that hard to remove he/she without using They. .
The question is : Why should anyone HAVE TO do even that "little effort"?
Why is that the question? I don't think anyone believes that Goodman games is doing this against their will. They want to do this, and that's all that really matters. Now, you don't have to buy it if you don't like it, but asking why they have to do this is really the wrong question.
That MIGHT be true of Gooperson games (I doubt it since when they start virtue signaling is to hide something). But the bigger picture necesitates that question answered.
So far the only "answers" provided have been "Muh Inclusivity!" and "Muh Representashun!". But never has it been proven that not doing so really stops anyone from joining a hobby.
If those "arguments" held any water you'd find that not a single straight white male would enjoy Wonder Woman, Black Panther, Shang Chi (the original good comics not the BS new ones or the movie), etc.
The same is true of TTRPGs, why is it that in HispanoAmerica the most popular game is vanilla D&D and not something like Maztica?
That is the underlying question that needs to be answered and so far it hasn't been.
Feel free to disagree, I can't force you to be right and I lack the time/interest to try and convince you of anything.
You're (general you, for many in the thread) the ones needing it answered. They (Goodman and others making such changes) obviously don't feel that need. This is then about you, not them.
Actually this is about those demanding such changes but you can keep pretending you don't know that.
What I see here are many demanding others don't make such changes, or at the least denouncing those that do make such choices. If you're going to complain when someone picks a side you don't agree with, you need to realize that you've contributed to hyping up the issue too by virtue/vice-signaling of your own. Try live and let live.
It's funny how this bullshit claim is always given by people on the left directed to people on the right, when it's convenient. While they wait until they can criminally enforce "Silence is Violence".
Are you suggesting I'm planning to do that? If so, you're quite wrong. But, by all means, stick to character.
I'm saying you're here, arguing against traditional gaming to regular gamers, not arguing over in left-wing forums at communist gamers about why they should stop trying to ruin the hobby. And worse, you're here making your argument in an utterly transparently-fake "what's the big deal? So why do you care? I obviously don't care; I'm here talking about this in every thread trying to convince or shame people into not fighting back against the Leftist deconstruction of society in every single thread, but I totally don't care even a little". It's an insult that you think anyone here can't see through that.
I think what side you want winning is pretty fucking clear.
I don't see "sides" the same way you do, and I don't think anyone is "winning" by fanning the burning shit heaps that get made of even the tiniest issues that arise. But you make money from it all, so I get why you're so into spritzing kerosene onto the tiniest embers. You do you.
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 04:04:23 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 03:55:22 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 03:51:10 PM
Quote from: Haffrung on November 12, 2021, 06:15:50 AM
Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 04:36:33 PM
In general, English isn't closely prescribed - and usage will vary, especially in conversation and non-formal writing like fiction and RPGs.
RPG books are rules documents - a kind of formal writing. Any professional writers, editors, and publishers worth their salt adhere to a style guide. Something like the Chicago Manual of Style. And 'they' as a singular pronoun is increasingly being recognized in professional style guides. The last three companies I've worked for - two of them oil and gas companies - did not use gendered pronouns in their documentation.
Goodman are doing nothing more than adopting the new norms of language. It might satisfy the tribal allegiances of some here if DCC defied those norms. But it's a businesses trying to meet market and professional standards, not a political actor flying the flag of some faction of fandom.
Their Con guidelines beg to differ. They're apparently proudly flying the flag of "geek feminism" and "player autonomy" (ie. Forge bullshit where players get veto power over the GM).
Players always have a degree of veto power over the GM. They can choose not to play, and if enough of them choose that, the GM now has a playerless game. The players can then put together the game they want, and if the GM is too much of an ass about the whole thing, they might not be invited to join. That applies beyond games too...there's a degree of veto power in almost any social group activity.
That is very clearly not what they mean here. What they mean here is that any player can stop the game at any time and make any kind of demand about things that should be taken out or put into the game or that the GM change a ruling for any reason, because this is a "collaborative storytelling game" run by the players, not the GM and he doesn't have the authority to do anything without the player's "consent".
Which is all bullshit. The one and ONLY "right" that a player has at the table is the right to walk away whenever they like. That's the entire nature of the social contract in a regular gaming table.
That ONLY right is the only one needed. If the GM doesn't keep his players engaged and enjoying thr game, that game can be killed,, so that right is veto power.
Quote from: Haffrung on November 12, 2021, 12:11:34 PM
Which doesn't mean Goodman isn't engaging in virtue signalling by making a big deal about it. But anyone who thinks using 'they' as a singular pronoun is fringe or going away is mistaken. It's already standard usage in dictionaries, style guides, and the corporate world.
I was using "they/their" 25 years ago because thats what we were taught in school 20 odd years before that. The usage goes back fairly far as an indicator of a group or individual as someone prior pointed out already.
Which is not what Wokeman Games is doing. Its pure virtue signalling.
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 03:58:59 PM
I'm saying you're here, arguing against traditional gaming to regular gamers, not arguing over in left-wing forums at communist gamers about why they should stop trying to ruin the hobby. And worse, you're here making your argument in an utterly transparently-fake "what's the big deal? So why do you care? I obviously don't care; I'm here talking about this in every thread trying to convince or shame people into not fighting back against the Leftist deconstruction of society in every single thread, but I totally don't care even a little". It's an insult that you think anyone here can't see through that.
It is transparent. It is also pathetic. I cannot imagine how empty my life would have to be.
I'd love to see links showing even one or two of these trolls telling members of rpg.net they are making a big deal about something, or should not pick sides and just focus on the game at the table.
They don't, because they don't actually believe any of it.
Denying reality is a pastime it appears. This is not some personal gender thing where someone is insisting on a gender pronoun (and, honestly, I treat that like a name, someone likes Nicholas instead of Nick, I call them what they prefer). This is just a company using a perfectly accepted neutral pronoun.
Must be a slow news day and the list has stopped drawing attention if suddenly posters are all about grammar. Like bog standard grammar.
Quote from: Myrdin Potter on November 12, 2021, 04:49:23 PM
Denying reality is a pastime it appears. This is not some personal gender thing where someone is insisting on a gender pronoun (and, honestly, I treat that like a name, someone likes Nicholas instead of Nick, I call them what they prefer). This is just a company using a perfectly accepted neutral pronoun.
Must be a slow news day and the list has stopped drawing attention if suddenly posters are all about grammar. Like bog standard grammar.
Honestly the con guideline document should be the nail in the coffin. This thing with the pronouns just stems from that, and that document was published quite some time ago (around the time of the second online convention Bride of Cyclops Con I think?)
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 04:12:33 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 03:58:59 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 03:52:21 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 03:40:24 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 04:59:00 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:43:29 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 04:34:23 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:29:37 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 04:14:03 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:10:48 PM
Quote from: Ruprecht on November 11, 2021, 04:09:14 PM
It really depends upon how they re-write the sentences. With a little effort it isn't all that hard to remove he/she without using They. .
The question is : Why should anyone HAVE TO do even that "little effort"?
Why is that the question? I don't think anyone believes that Goodman games is doing this against their will. They want to do this, and that's all that really matters. Now, you don't have to buy it if you don't like it, but asking why they have to do this is really the wrong question.
That MIGHT be true of Gooperson games (I doubt it since when they start virtue signaling is to hide something). But the bigger picture necesitates that question answered.
So far the only "answers" provided have been "Muh Inclusivity!" and "Muh Representashun!". But never has it been proven that not doing so really stops anyone from joining a hobby.
If those "arguments" held any water you'd find that not a single straight white male would enjoy Wonder Woman, Black Panther, Shang Chi (the original good comics not the BS new ones or the movie), etc.
The same is true of TTRPGs, why is it that in HispanoAmerica the most popular game is vanilla D&D and not something like Maztica?
That is the underlying question that needs to be answered and so far it hasn't been.
Feel free to disagree, I can't force you to be right and I lack the time/interest to try and convince you of anything.
You're (general you, for many in the thread) the ones needing it answered. They (Goodman and others making such changes) obviously don't feel that need. This is then about you, not them.
Actually this is about those demanding such changes but you can keep pretending you don't know that.
What I see here are many demanding others don't make such changes, or at the least denouncing those that do make such choices. If you're going to complain when someone picks a side you don't agree with, you need to realize that you've contributed to hyping up the issue too by virtue/vice-signaling of your own. Try live and let live.
It's funny how this bullshit claim is always given by people on the left directed to people on the right, when it's convenient. While they wait until they can criminally enforce "Silence is Violence".
Are you suggesting I'm planning to do that? If so, you're quite wrong. But, by all means, stick to character.
I'm saying you're here, arguing against traditional gaming to regular gamers, not arguing over in left-wing forums at communist gamers about why they should stop trying to ruin the hobby. And worse, you're here making your argument in an utterly transparently-fake "what's the big deal? So why do you care? I obviously don't care; I'm here talking about this in every thread trying to convince or shame people into not fighting back against the Leftist deconstruction of society in every single thread, but I totally don't care even a little". It's an insult that you think anyone here can't see through that.
I think what side you want winning is pretty fucking clear.
I don't see "sides" the same way you do, and I don't think anyone is "winning" by fanning the burning shit heaps that get made of even the tiniest issues that arise. But you make money from it all, so I get why you're so into spritzing kerosene onto the tiniest embers. You do you.
Greetings!
*Laughing* Hopefully, Pundit can bring up a whole Tanker-Fuel Truck, and get the hoses going FULL BLAST! ;D
Every drop of sweet fuel adds to the delicious, roasting fire for the SJW's to wallow in. ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Fantacide on November 12, 2021, 04:58:59 PM
Quote from: Myrdin Potter on November 12, 2021, 04:49:23 PM
Denying reality is a pastime it appears. This is not some personal gender thing where someone is insisting on a gender pronoun (and, honestly, I treat that like a name, someone likes Nicholas instead of Nick, I call them what they prefer). This is just a company using a perfectly accepted neutral pronoun.
Must be a slow news day and the list has stopped drawing attention if suddenly posters are all about grammar. Like bog standard grammar.
Honestly the con guideline document should be the nail in the coffin. This thing with the pronouns just stems from that, and that document was published quite some time ago (around the time of the second online convention Bride of Cyclops Con I think?)
Greetings!
Yeah, the Con-Guidelines document is pretty eye-opening. Sad, really. I had hoped that Goodman Games would have been better--and smarter--than that.
I actually met Jospeh Goodman back in, I think it was 2004, at Gen Con. Then, he seemed like a fine fellow, and cool. *Shrugs* But I also met Lindroos, Green Ronin, and Atlas Games people, too. Nephews, he and his wife. They all seemed pretty nice, cool, and interesting people. It's sad to see them turn out to be SJW, Kool-Aid swilling morons.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote
Denying reality is a pastime it appears. This is not some personal gender thing where someone is insisting on a gender pronoun (and, honestly, I treat that like a name, someone likes Nicholas instead of Nick, I call them what they prefer). This is just a company using a perfectly accepted neutral pronoun.
Must be a slow news day and the list has stopped drawing attention if suddenly posters are all about grammar. Like bog standard grammar.
It has been repeatedly pointed out that it isn't just about making a choice moving forward, but going back and changing work already completed. You don't just control-f and drop in your new they/them. This is no small task. Artwork has to be moved along with all kinds of editing.
So no, it is literally the opposite of what you said. It IS about making a statement about pronouns. Just like their con rules.
Edited going low. Rest untouched.
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 04:14:11 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 04:04:23 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 03:55:22 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 03:51:10 PM
Quote from: Haffrung on November 12, 2021, 06:15:50 AM
Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 04:36:33 PM
In general, English isn't closely prescribed - and usage will vary, especially in conversation and non-formal writing like fiction and RPGs.
RPG books are rules documents - a kind of formal writing. Any professional writers, editors, and publishers worth their salt adhere to a style guide. Something like the Chicago Manual of Style. And 'they' as a singular pronoun is increasingly being recognized in professional style guides. The last three companies I've worked for - two of them oil and gas companies - did not use gendered pronouns in their documentation.
Goodman are doing nothing more than adopting the new norms of language. It might satisfy the tribal allegiances of some here if DCC defied those norms. But it's a businesses trying to meet market and professional standards, not a political actor flying the flag of some faction of fandom.
Their Con guidelines beg to differ. They're apparently proudly flying the flag of "geek feminism" and "player autonomy" (ie. Forge bullshit where players get veto power over the GM).
Players always have a degree of veto power over the GM. They can choose not to play, and if enough of them choose that, the GM now has a playerless game. The players can then put together the game they want, and if the GM is too much of an ass about the whole thing, they might not be invited to join. That applies beyond games too...there's a degree of veto power in almost any social group activity.
That is very clearly not what they mean here. What they mean here is that any player can stop the game at any time and make any kind of demand about things that should be taken out or put into the game or that the GM change a ruling for any reason, because this is a "collaborative storytelling game" run by the players, not the GM and he doesn't have the authority to do anything without the player's "consent".
Which is all bullshit. The one and ONLY "right" that a player has at the table is the right to walk away whenever they like. That's the entire nature of the social contract in a regular gaming table.
That ONLY right is the only one needed. If the GM doesn't keep his players engaged and enjoying thr game, that game can be killed,, so that right is veto power.
The format of regulations like the ones given for the Goodman Con creates a situation where a player can INSIST that they will NOT leave the game, and the GM must do whatever they want, and if the GM tries to kick the player out of his table, he will be the one sanctioned for his "bigotry".
So it turns DMs into powerless puppets there to do the whims of whoever is the loudest demographic at the table.
Quote from: FingerRod on November 12, 2021, 04:25:57 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 03:58:59 PM
I'm saying you're here, arguing against traditional gaming to regular gamers, not arguing over in left-wing forums at communist gamers about why they should stop trying to ruin the hobby. And worse, you're here making your argument in an utterly transparently-fake "what's the big deal? So why do you care? I obviously don't care; I'm here talking about this in every thread trying to convince or shame people into not fighting back against the Leftist deconstruction of society in every single thread, but I totally don't care even a little". It's an insult that you think anyone here can't see through that.
It is transparent. It is also pathetic. I cannot imagine how empty my life would have to be.
I'd love to see links showing even one or two of these trolls telling members of rpg.net they are making a big deal about something, or should not pick sides and just focus on the game at the table.
They don't, because they don't actually believe any of it.
And if someone tried to do that over there, they would be banned.
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 06:21:10 PM
And if someone tried to do that over there, they would be banned.
Absolutely. And the fact you do not ban people here probably chaps their ass to unspeakable levels.
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 06:20:25 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 04:14:11 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 04:04:23 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 03:55:22 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 03:51:10 PM
Quote from: Haffrung on November 12, 2021, 06:15:50 AM
Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 04:36:33 PM
In general, English isn't closely prescribed - and usage will vary, especially in conversation and non-formal writing like fiction and RPGs.
RPG books are rules documents - a kind of formal writing. Any professional writers, editors, and publishers worth their salt adhere to a style guide. Something like the Chicago Manual of Style. And 'they' as a singular pronoun is increasingly being recognized in professional style guides. The last three companies I've worked for - two of them oil and gas companies - did not use gendered pronouns in their documentation.
Goodman are doing nothing more than adopting the new norms of language. It might satisfy the tribal allegiances of some here if DCC defied those norms. But it's a businesses trying to meet market and professional standards, not a political actor flying the flag of some faction of fandom.
Their Con guidelines beg to differ. They're apparently proudly flying the flag of "geek feminism" and "player autonomy" (ie. Forge bullshit where players get veto power over the GM).
Players always have a degree of veto power over the GM. They can choose not to play, and if enough of them choose that, the GM now has a playerless game. The players can then put together the game they want, and if the GM is too much of an ass about the whole thing, they might not be invited to join. That applies beyond games too...there's a degree of veto power in almost any social group activity.
That is very clearly not what they mean here. What they mean here is that any player can stop the game at any time and make any kind of demand about things that should be taken out or put into the game or that the GM change a ruling for any reason, because this is a "collaborative storytelling game" run by the players, not the GM and he doesn't have the authority to do anything without the player's "consent".
Which is all bullshit. The one and ONLY "right" that a player has at the table is the right to walk away whenever they like. That's the entire nature of the social contract in a regular gaming table.
That ONLY right is the only one needed. If the GM doesn't keep his players engaged and enjoying thr game, that game can be killed,, so that right is veto power.
The format of regulations like the ones given for the Goodman Con creates a situation where a player can INSIST that they will NOT leave the game, and the GM must do whatever they want, and if the GM tries to kick the player out of his table, he will be the one sanctioned for his "bigotry".
So it turns DMs into powerless puppets there to do the whims of whoever is the loudest demographic at the table.
This perfectly sums up why I stepped away from them. I was a road crew judge for many years, and I loved running open table and convention games for them but I'm not going to adhere to guideline document that can get me reprimanded or banned just because some player doesn't like spiders, fire, or whatever else they don't agree with. :(
Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 12, 2021, 11:58:59 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 12, 2021, 11:06:35 AM
There's no reason (nor a way) to make everything 50/50. Except by force, forcing people to do shit they don't want to do in the name of equality.
Well, we've seen the attempt to convince people that the disparity is primarily due to some kind of -ism in the existing fanbase.
But yeah, that attempt has failed to produce any results. As pointed out, nerd hobbies going mainstream did that heavy lifting.
Exactly.
It is not the changes that WotC has made the past year, or that GG is now making that attracted all the new fans to 5e in the current pop-culture boom.
Geek hobbies going mainstream and making playing RPG's cool again got all the new fans to try out D&D.
All of the changes to races, lore, pronouns, "for inclusivity" are all occurring
after 5e D&D had already set record sales numbers.
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 04:12:33 PM
I don't think anyone is "winning" by fanning the burning shit heaps that get made of even the tiniest issues that arise. But you make money from it all, so I get why you're so into spritzing kerosene onto the tiniest embers. You do you.
And none of the woke scolds make money from playing their monotonous sludge? Gimme a break... Virtually all those muppets scrounge about with their patreon and paypal constantly seeking donations. And what do they create for the most part 'nout? They just bleat on about their woke crapola. So what do they really contribute to the hobby? Nothing of real substance.
At least Pundit is a creator, and can sell games and supplements.
If your going to moan about Pundit making money off controversy, at least have the honesty to point out that the other side do it too.
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 06:20:25 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 04:14:11 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 04:04:23 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 03:55:22 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 03:51:10 PM
Quote from: Haffrung on November 12, 2021, 06:15:50 AM
Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 04:36:33 PM
In general, English isn't closely prescribed - and usage will vary, especially in conversation and non-formal writing like fiction and RPGs.
RPG books are rules documents - a kind of formal writing. Any professional writers, editors, and publishers worth their salt adhere to a style guide. Something like the Chicago Manual of Style. And 'they' as a singular pronoun is increasingly being recognized in professional style guides. The last three companies I've worked for - two of them oil and gas companies - did not use gendered pronouns in their documentation.
Goodman are doing nothing more than adopting the new norms of language. It might satisfy the tribal allegiances of some here if DCC defied those norms. But it's a businesses trying to meet market and professional standards, not a political actor flying the flag of some faction of fandom.
Their Con guidelines beg to differ. They're apparently proudly flying the flag of "geek feminism" and "player autonomy" (ie. Forge bullshit where players get veto power over the GM).
Players always have a degree of veto power over the GM. They can choose not to play, and if enough of them choose that, the GM now has a playerless game. The players can then put together the game they want, and if the GM is too much of an ass about the whole thing, they might not be invited to join. That applies beyond games too...there's a degree of veto power in almost any social group activity.
That is very clearly not what they mean here. What they mean here is that any player can stop the game at any time and make any kind of demand about things that should be taken out or put into the game or that the GM change a ruling for any reason, because this is a "collaborative storytelling game" run by the players, not the GM and he doesn't have the authority to do anything without the player's "consent".
Which is all bullshit. The one and ONLY "right" that a player has at the table is the right to walk away whenever they like. That's the entire nature of the social contract in a regular gaming table.
That ONLY right is the only one needed. If the GM doesn't keep his players engaged and enjoying thr game, that game can be killed,, so that right is veto power.
The format of regulations like the ones given for the Goodman Con creates a situation where a player can INSIST that they will NOT leave the game, and the GM must do whatever they want, and if the GM tries to kick the player out of his table, he will be the one sanctioned for his "bigotry".
So it turns DMs into powerless puppets there to do the whims of whoever is the loudest demographic at the table.
The DM retsins the same right to leave the game as any other player. Does the con somehow bind them to run a game they don't want to run/play? What are the consequences they would face for just stating "I'm done here" or just humming out a test pattern for the remainder of the time slot?
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 12, 2021, 06:51:50 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 04:12:33 PM
I don't think anyone is "winning" by fanning the burning shit heaps that get made of even the tiniest issues that arise. But you make money from it all, so I get why you're so into spritzing kerosene onto the tiniest embers. You do you.
And none of the woke scolds make money from playing their monotonous sludge? Gimme a break... Virtually all those muppets scrounge about with their patreon and paypal constantly seeking donations. And what do they create for the most part 'nout? They just bleat on about their woke crapola. So what do they really contribute to the hobby? Nothing of real substance.
At least Pundit is a creator, and can sell games and supplements.
If your going to moan about Pundit making money off controversy, at least have the honesty to point out that the other side do it too.
I've never claimed that there aren't other assholes doing thr same kind of stuff from the "other side" (or the same side if it's just one big camp of making money from controversy). And there's nothing at all wrong with making money as long as it's all legal, but I just don't buy into all the kafaybe acts.
Quote from: mightybrain on November 12, 2021, 05:37:45 AM
Quote from: Aglondir on November 11, 2021, 09:15:11 PM
Not sure about that last part... Vampire (and White Wolf) did not use the generic "he." They would alternate between "he" and "she" randomly, which was unheard of at the time. I suspect this was one of the reasons (but not the main one) why the book appealed to a female audience.
As already pointed out, 1st edition AD&D, BX, and BECMI already had used "he or she" throughout in the decade prior to VtM and yet did not bring all the girls to yard.
I didn't see your point earlier, but I see it now. Correct.
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 06:57:23 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 06:20:25 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 04:14:11 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 04:04:23 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 03:55:22 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 03:51:10 PM
Quote from: Haffrung on November 12, 2021, 06:15:50 AM
Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 04:36:33 PM
In general, English isn't closely prescribed - and usage will vary, especially in conversation and non-formal writing like fiction and RPGs.
RPG books are rules documents - a kind of formal writing. Any professional writers, editors, and publishers worth their salt adhere to a style guide. Something like the Chicago Manual of Style. And 'they' as a singular pronoun is increasingly being recognized in professional style guides. The last three companies I've worked for - two of them oil and gas companies - did not use gendered pronouns in their documentation.
Goodman are doing nothing more than adopting the new norms of language. It might satisfy the tribal allegiances of some here if DCC defied those norms. But it's a businesses trying to meet market and professional standards, not a political actor flying the flag of some faction of fandom.
Their Con guidelines beg to differ. They're apparently proudly flying the flag of "geek feminism" and "player autonomy" (ie. Forge bullshit where players get veto power over the GM).
Players always have a degree of veto power over the GM. They can choose not to play, and if enough of them choose that, the GM now has a playerless game. The players can then put together the game they want, and if the GM is too much of an ass about the whole thing, they might not be invited to join. That applies beyond games too...there's a degree of veto power in almost any social group activity.
That is very clearly not what they mean here. What they mean here is that any player can stop the game at any time and make any kind of demand about things that should be taken out or put into the game or that the GM change a ruling for any reason, because this is a "collaborative storytelling game" run by the players, not the GM and he doesn't have the authority to do anything without the player's "consent".
Which is all bullshit. The one and ONLY "right" that a player has at the table is the right to walk away whenever they like. That's the entire nature of the social contract in a regular gaming table.
That ONLY right is the only one needed. If the GM doesn't keep his players engaged and enjoying thr game, that game can be killed,, so that right is veto power.
The format of regulations like the ones given for the Goodman Con creates a situation where a player can INSIST that they will NOT leave the game, and the GM must do whatever they want, and if the GM tries to kick the player out of his table, he will be the one sanctioned for his "bigotry".
So it turns DMs into powerless puppets there to do the whims of whoever is the loudest demographic at the table.
The DM retsins the same right to leave the game as any other player. Does the con somehow bind them to run a game they don't want to run/play? What are the consequences they would face for just stating "I'm done here" or just humming out a test pattern for the remainder of the time slot?
They often have their con pass payed for if they agree to DM so they might be kicked from the con for not DMing
Quote from: Slambo on November 12, 2021, 08:42:28 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 06:57:23 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 06:20:25 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 04:14:11 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 04:04:23 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 03:55:22 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 03:51:10 PM
Quote from: Haffrung on November 12, 2021, 06:15:50 AM
Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 04:36:33 PM
In general, English isn't closely prescribed - and usage will vary, especially in conversation and non-formal writing like fiction and RPGs.
RPG books are rules documents - a kind of formal writing. Any professional writers, editors, and publishers worth their salt adhere to a style guide. Something like the Chicago Manual of Style. And 'they' as a singular pronoun is increasingly being recognized in professional style guides. The last three companies I've worked for - two of them oil and gas companies - did not use gendered pronouns in their documentation.
Goodman are doing nothing more than adopting the new norms of language. It might satisfy the tribal allegiances of some here if DCC defied those norms. But it's a businesses trying to meet market and professional standards, not a political actor flying the flag of some faction of fandom.
Their Con guidelines beg to differ. They're apparently proudly flying the flag of "geek feminism" and "player autonomy" (ie. Forge bullshit where players get veto power over the GM).
Players always have a degree of veto power over the GM. They can choose not to play, and if enough of them choose that, the GM now has a playerless game. The players can then put together the game they want, and if the GM is too much of an ass about the whole thing, they might not be invited to join. That applies beyond games too...there's a degree of veto power in almost any social group activity.
That is very clearly not what they mean here. What they mean here is that any player can stop the game at any time and make any kind of demand about things that should be taken out or put into the game or that the GM change a ruling for any reason, because this is a "collaborative storytelling game" run by the players, not the GM and he doesn't have the authority to do anything without the player's "consent".
Which is all bullshit. The one and ONLY "right" that a player has at the table is the right to walk away whenever they like. That's the entire nature of the social contract in a regular gaming table.
That ONLY right is the only one needed. If the GM doesn't keep his players engaged and enjoying thr game, that game can be killed,, so that right is veto power.
The format of regulations like the ones given for the Goodman Con creates a situation where a player can INSIST that they will NOT leave the game, and the GM must do whatever they want, and if the GM tries to kick the player out of his table, he will be the one sanctioned for his "bigotry".
So it turns DMs into powerless puppets there to do the whims of whoever is the loudest demographic at the table.
The DM retsins the same right to leave the game as any other player. Does the con somehow bind them to run a game they don't want to run/play? What are the consequences they would face for just stating "I'm done here" or just humming out a test pattern for the remainder of the time slot?
They often have their con pass payed for if they agree to DM so they might be kicked from the con for not DMing
Ok, for the con game, play/run by con rules. No big deal. For your own games, in your own spaces, run how you (and your players) like. This isn't really hard to understand.
Don't go to Goodman's Cons and give them money because they are Full Woke. No Big Deal. Tell others about Goodman's Full Wokeness so they can make a choice not to go. No Big Deal. Don't buy their products because I don't want to support a Full Woke company. No Big Deal. Inform others about Goodman's Full Wokeness so they can make the choice not to buy Goodman's products. No Big Deal.
We can all play the "No Big Deal" game too.
Quote from: GusB on November 13, 2021, 08:25:31 AM
Don't go to Goodman's Cons and give them money because they are Full Woke. No Big Deal. Tell others about Goodman's Full Wokeness so they can make a choice not to go. No Big Deal. Don't buy their products because I don't want to support a Full Woke company. No Big Deal. Inform others about Goodman's Full Wokeness so they can make the choice not to buy Goodman's products. No Big Deal.
We can all play the "No Big Deal" game too.
Indeed... Like I've been saying it for ages now - Lots of other products and cons.
Invest in like minded gamers and sod the rest of 'em. No big deal! ;)
Anybody okay with any publisher using they/them as a neutral gender term is a Woke ally. It doesn't matter if the Chicago Manual of Style or whatever puts "they" in the style guide... If you can't tell or see how politically moved all these changes have been for their purposes of subverting and inverting language than that's what they want. Our language is being subverted. Our culture is being systematically targeted and those behind it know what they are doing. Getting the Chicago Style of Grammar or whatever it's called to go along with it is just another win for these evil bastards.
"Well it's okay if Goodman Games uses they, but if they use Xe then that's too far." ... This is exactly the kind of thinking the Woke Left want people to have. This is what let's these people get away with all their Woke crap.
There is a book on Amazon I just found out about called Counter Wokecraft. It just got released. If you want to actually know about this Woke infestation and understand it then check it out. There is also a YouTube channel named New Discourses, by a guy named Mike Lindsey, who breaks down everything about the Woke from an academic perspective. I am not affiliated with either. I just prefer not to be ignorant.
Quote from: RebelSky on November 13, 2021, 08:54:30 AM
Anybody okay with any publisher using they/them as a neutral gender term is a Woke ally. It doesn't matter if the Chicago Manual of Style or whatever puts "they" in the style guide... If you can't tell or see how politically moved all these changes have been for their purposes of subverting and inverting language than that's what they want. Our language is being subverted. Our culture is being systematically targeted and those behind it know what they are doing.
Interesting that the Style Guide is a product of Chicago. What's next, the Seattle Gaming Authority? Or maybe the Bay Area Behavioral Handbook? I hear "all the professionals" will use it.
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 13, 2021, 08:16:00 AM
Quote from: Slambo on November 12, 2021, 08:42:28 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 06:57:23 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 06:20:25 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 04:14:11 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 04:04:23 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 03:55:22 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 03:51:10 PM
Quote from: Haffrung on November 12, 2021, 06:15:50 AM
Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 04:36:33 PM
In general, English isn't closely prescribed - and usage will vary, especially in conversation and non-formal writing like fiction and RPGs.
RPG books are rules documents - a kind of formal writing. Any professional writers, editors, and publishers worth their salt adhere to a style guide. Something like the Chicago Manual of Style. And 'they' as a singular pronoun is increasingly being recognized in professional style guides. The last three companies I've worked for - two of them oil and gas companies - did not use gendered pronouns in their documentation.
Goodman are doing nothing more than adopting the new norms of language. It might satisfy the tribal allegiances of some here if DCC defied those norms. But it's a businesses trying to meet market and professional standards, not a political actor flying the flag of some faction of fandom.
Their Con guidelines beg to differ. They're apparently proudly flying the flag of "geek feminism" and "player autonomy" (ie. Forge bullshit where players get veto power over the GM).
Players always have a degree of veto power over the GM. They can choose not to play, and if enough of them choose that, the GM now has a playerless game. The players can then put together the game they want, and if the GM is too much of an ass about the whole thing, they might not be invited to join. That applies beyond games too...there's a degree of veto power in almost any social group activity.
That is very clearly not what they mean here. What they mean here is that any player can stop the game at any time and make any kind of demand about things that should be taken out or put into the game or that the GM change a ruling for any reason, because this is a "collaborative storytelling game" run by the players, not the GM and he doesn't have the authority to do anything without the player's "consent".
Which is all bullshit. The one and ONLY "right" that a player has at the table is the right to walk away whenever they like. That's the entire nature of the social contract in a regular gaming table.
That ONLY right is the only one needed. If the GM doesn't keep his players engaged and enjoying thr game, that game can be killed,, so that right is veto power.
The format of regulations like the ones given for the Goodman Con creates a situation where a player can INSIST that they will NOT leave the game, and the GM must do whatever they want, and if the GM tries to kick the player out of his table, he will be the one sanctioned for his "bigotry".
So it turns DMs into powerless puppets there to do the whims of whoever is the loudest demographic at the table.
The DM retsins the same right to leave the game as any other player. Does the con somehow bind them to run a game they don't want to run/play? What are the consequences they would face for just stating "I'm done here" or just humming out a test pattern for the remainder of the time slot?
They often have their con pass payed for if they agree to DM so they might be kicked from the con for not DMing
Ok, for the con game, play/run by con rules. No big deal. For your own games, in your own spaces, run how you (and your players) like. This isn't really hard to understand.
This was a heavy factor for me as a road crew judge and a con gm for that as well. Home games can do whatever they want.
Quote from: Zalman on November 13, 2021, 09:43:34 AM
Quote from: RebelSky on November 13, 2021, 08:54:30 AM
Anybody okay with any publisher using they/them as a neutral gender term is a Woke ally. It doesn't matter if the Chicago Manual of Style or whatever puts "they" in the style guide... If you can't tell or see how politically moved all these changes have been for their purposes of subverting and inverting language than that's what they want. Our language is being subverted. Our culture is being systematically targeted and those behind it know what they are doing.
Interesting that the Style Guide is a product of Chicago. What's next, the Seattle Gaming Authority? Or maybe the Bay Area Behavioral Handbook? I hear "all the professionals" will use it.
In 115 years? Maybe.
The Chicago Manual of Style was first published by the University of Chicago in 1906.
If your entire schtick on the board is constant, 100% bad faith argumentation and apologetics for transforming a dice-rolling & storytelling hobby into a vehicle for CurrentYear politics, it should be no surprise when you get blocked.
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 06:57:23 PM
The DM retains the same right to leave the game as any other player. Does the con somehow bind them to run a game they don't want to run/play? What are the consequences they would face for just stating "I'm done here" or just humming out a test pattern for the remainder of the time slot?
Why should the DM have to leave their game because of one Jabroni is not affirming "enthusiastic agreement of game development"? Just that situation occurring is a CoC violation that could lead to you being sanctioned or expelled from the con.
"Anyone who violates this Code of Conduct may be sanctioned or expelled from Dungeon Con Online at the discretion of the Dungeon Con Online Admin team."
Quote from: dkabq on November 13, 2021, 10:11:17 AM
Why should the DM have to leave their game because of one Jabroni is not affirming "enthusiastic agreement of game development"? Just that situation occurring is a CoC violation that could lead to you being sanctioned or expelled from the con.
"Anyone who violates this Code of Conduct may be sanctioned or expelled from Dungeon Con Online at the discretion of the Dungeon Con Online Admin team."
Depends on the Identity/Ideology of the complainants:
Quote from: Dungeon Con Online Code of Conduct
Dungeon Con Online prioritizes marginalized people's safety over privileged people's comfort.
Dungeon Con Online reserves the right not to act on complaints of 'reverse' -isms, including
'reverse racism,' 'reverse sexism,' and 'cisphobia'.
Dungeon Con Online reserves the right not to act on complaints against the reasonable
communication of boundaries, such as "leave me alone," "go away," or "I'm not discussing this
with you."
Dungeon Con Online reserves the right not to act on complaints of someone communicating in
a 'tone' you don't find congenial.
Dungeon Con Online reserves the right not to act on complaints against criticisms of racist,
sexist, cissexist, or otherwise oppressive behavior or assumptions.
Quote from: Zalman on November 13, 2021, 09:43:34 AM
Quote from: RebelSky on November 13, 2021, 08:54:30 AM
Anybody okay with any publisher using they/them as a neutral gender term is a Woke ally. It doesn't matter if the Chicago Manual of Style or whatever puts "they" in the style guide... If you can't tell or see how politically moved all these changes have been for their purposes of subverting and inverting language than that's what they want. Our language is being subverted. Our culture is being systematically targeted and those behind it know what they are doing.
Interesting that the Style Guide is a product of Chicago. What's next, the Seattle Gaming Authority? Or maybe the Bay Area Behavioral Handbook? I hear "all the professionals" will use it.
It's called that simply because it's published, as it has always been, by the University of Chicago. This is, in fact, one of the standard style guides used by publishers all over the world. These are also tied to specific disciplines for things like how you do footnotes, bibliographies, etc. So, for example, Chicago style is generally used in the field of history, which is my academic specialty. But for literature, they use the guide produced by the Modern Language Association, called the MLA style. For many of the social sciences, they use APA, or American Psychological Association style. These are not inherently political, but are used by disciplines for uniformity. Of course specific presses, publishers, and journals often have their own house styles that you must conform to if you wish to publish with them. I'm an editor for a academic journal and we require all submissions to conform to our style, which is based on Chicago. As teachers, we generally pick a style appropriate to the discipline and require our students to adhere to it.
FWIW I personally think that Goodman is absolutely virtue signalling, but whatever, I don't play DCC anyhow. However I just wanted to clarify this about style guides.
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 13, 2021, 08:16:00 AM
Ok, for the con game, play/run by con rules. No big deal. For your own games, in your own spaces, run how you (and your players) like. This isn't really hard to understand.
You have a point, if at a con, play/run by the con's rules. But fuck beans, have you read the rules?
- safety tools
- the requirement to routinely reaffirm pronouns
- the requirement to routinely check-in to affirm enthusiastic agreement of game development
- "Dungeon Con Online prioritizes marginalized people's safety over privileged people's comfort."
- "Dungeon Con Online reserves the right not to act on complaints of 'reverse' -isms, including 'reverse racism,' 'reverse sexism,' and 'cisphobia'." So if you are white and black person calls you a "cracker", you can just fuck right off.
- The Star Chamber Enforcement & Consequences process. Looks like they took a page out of the Obama era Title IX playbook
Quote from: Persimmon on November 13, 2021, 10:27:03 AM
It's called that simply because it's published, as it has always been, by the University of Chicago. This is, in fact, one of the standard style guides used by publishers all over the world. These are also tied to specific disciplines for things like how you do footnotes, bibliographies, etc. So, for example, Chicago style is generally used in the field of history, which is my academic specialty. But for literature, they use the guide produced by the Modern Language Association, called the MLA style. For many of the social sciences, they use APA, or American Psychological Association style. These are not inherently political, but are used by disciplines for uniformity. Of course specific presses, publishers, and journals often have their own house styles that you must conform to if you wish to publish with them. I'm an editor for a academic journal and we require all submissions to conform to our style, which is based on Chicago. As teachers, we generally pick a style appropriate to the discipline and require our students to adhere to it.
FWIW I personally think that Goodman is absolutely virtue signalling, but whatever, I don't play DCC anyhow. However I just wanted to clarify this about style guides.
I am very familiar with the notion of Style Guides and how they are used.
As well, I understand that the "Chicago" Style Guide comes from the University of Chicago.
However, I do not share your belief that colleges such as University of Chicago are "not inherently political". That may have been true in 1908 (I wouldn't know); it's most certainly not the case today.
Anyone who continues to rely on the Chicago Style Guide as an authority (or the CDC, or WoTC, etc.) in this day and age is adhering to a purely political agenda.
Quote from: Persimmon on November 13, 2021, 10:27:03 AM
Quote from: Zalman on November 13, 2021, 09:43:34 AM
Quote from: RebelSky on November 13, 2021, 08:54:30 AM
Anybody okay with any publisher using they/them as a neutral gender term is a Woke ally. It doesn't matter if the Chicago Manual of Style or whatever puts "they" in the style guide... If you can't tell or see how politically moved all these changes have been for their purposes of subverting and inverting language than that's what they want. Our language is being subverted. Our culture is being systematically targeted and those behind it know what they are doing.
Interesting that the Style Guide is a product of Chicago. What's next, the Seattle Gaming Authority? Or maybe the Bay Area Behavioral Handbook? I hear "all the professionals" will use it.
It's called that simply because it's published, as it has always been, by the University of Chicago. This is, in fact, one of the standard style guides used by publishers all over the world. These are also tied to specific disciplines for things like how you do footnotes, bibliographies, etc. So, for example, Chicago style is generally used in the field of history, which is my academic specialty. But for literature, they use the guide produced by the Modern Language Association, called the MLA style. For many of the social sciences, they use APA, or American Psychological Association style. These are not inherently political, but are used by disciplines for uniformity. Of course specific presses, publishers, and journals often have their own house styles that you must conform to if you wish to publish with them. I'm an editor for a academic journal and we require all submissions to conform to our style, which is based on Chicago. As teachers, we generally pick a style appropriate to the discipline and require our students to adhere to it.
FWIW I personally think that Goodman is absolutely virtue signalling, but whatever, I don't play DCC anyhow. However I just wanted to clarify this about style guides.
But just like dictionaries being changed in real-time to reflect leftist perspectives, style guides can suffer the same fate.
Quote from: dkabq on November 13, 2021, 10:30:00 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 13, 2021, 08:16:00 AM
Ok, for the con game, play/run by con rules. No big deal. For your own games, in your own spaces, run how you (and your players) like. This isn't really hard to understand.
You have a point, if at a con, play/run by the con's rules. But fuck beans, have you read the rules?
- safety tools
- the requirement to routinely reaffirm pronouns
- the requirement to routinely check-in to affirm enthusiastic agreement of game development
- "Dungeon Con Online prioritizes marginalized people's safety over privileged people's comfort."
- "Dungeon Con Online reserves the right not to act on complaints of 'reverse' -isms, including 'reverse racism,' 'reverse sexism,' and 'cisphobia'." So if you are white and black person calls you a "cracker", you can just fuck right off.
- The Star Chamber Enforcement & Consequences process. Looks like they took a page out of the Obama era Title IX playbook
Last con I went to was in 2004. I didn't much care for it, and since I prefer home/private games and can shop either online or through local store (the two overlap somewhat in central Florida), I've never felt much desire to go to another con. If I did, I would read the rules (and yes, those rules would push me back towards not wanting to go). If for some reason I still decided to go there and run a game, then I'd follow the rules just like I follow rules at work that I may not entirely agree with.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on November 13, 2021, 10:25:23 AM
Quote from: Dungeon Con Online Code of Conduct
Dungeon Con Online prioritizes marginalized people's safety over privileged people's comfort.
Dungeon Con Online reserves the right not to act on complaints of 'reverse' -isms, including
'reverse racism,' 'reverse sexism,' and 'cisphobia'.
Dungeon Con Online reserves the right not to act on complaints against the reasonable
communication of boundaries, such as "leave me alone," "go away," or "I'm not discussing this
with you."
Dungeon Con Online reserves the right not to act on complaints of someone communicating in
a 'tone' you don't find congenial.
Dungeon Con Online reserves the right not to act on complaints against criticisms of racist,
sexist, cissexist, or otherwise oppressive behavior or assumptions.
Holy crap. I can't believe I missed that.
Privileged people's comfortThere is no doubt Goodman Games hates you, straight white males.
BRUTAL
Quote from: Zalman on November 13, 2021, 10:32:15 AM
Quote from: Persimmon on November 13, 2021, 10:27:03 AM
It's called that simply because it's published, as it has always been, by the University of Chicago. This is, in fact, one of the standard style guides used by publishers all over the world. These are also tied to specific disciplines for things like how you do footnotes, bibliographies, etc. So, for example, Chicago style is generally used in the field of history, which is my academic specialty. But for literature, they use the guide produced by the Modern Language Association, called the MLA style. For many of the social sciences, they use APA, or American Psychological Association style. These are not inherently political, but are used by disciplines for uniformity. Of course specific presses, publishers, and journals often have their own house styles that you must conform to if you wish to publish with them. I'm an editor for a academic journal and we require all submissions to conform to our style, which is based on Chicago. As teachers, we generally pick a style appropriate to the discipline and require our students to adhere to it.
FWIW I personally think that Goodman is absolutely virtue signalling, but whatever, I don't play DCC anyhow. However I just wanted to clarify this about style guides.
I am very familiar with the notion of Style Guides and how they are used.
As well, I understand that the "Chicago" Style Guide comes from the University of Chicago.
However, I do not share your belief that colleges such as University of Chicago are "not inherently political". That may have been true in 1908 (I wouldn't know); it's most certainly not the case today.
Anyone who continues to rely on the Chicago Style Guide as an authority (or the CDC, or WoTC, etc.) in this day and age is adhering to a purely political agenda.
Where did I say that colleges are not inherently political? I'm just talking about style guides. And sure, they can absolutely be influenced by politics and political correctness. Believe me, that's the norm nowadays with universities creating "safe spaces" for students to color in case they're triggered by something. Yes, this is actually happening at our universities.
But sorry to inform you that we have to adhere to style guidelines to publish in specific forums. If you don't like someone's style guidelines, you just publish with someone else. Personally, I've never been asked to change pronouns for anything I've published. It's usually just related to footnote & bibliography style. In other words, citation of sources. The other thing they generally try to make us conform to nowadays is using BCE/CE instead of BC/AD. As a Catholic, I tend to ignore that, but the stuff I write is 17th-19th century history so I can generally get away with just putting the year in without the CE designation.
Quote from: dkabq on November 13, 2021, 10:30:00 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 13, 2021, 08:16:00 AM
Ok, for the con game, play/run by con rules. No big deal. For your own games, in your own spaces, run how you (and your players) like. This isn't really hard to understand.
You have a point, if at a con, play/run by the con's rules. But fuck beans, have you read the rules?
- safety tools
- the requirement to routinely reaffirm pronouns
- the requirement to routinely check-in to affirm enthusiastic agreement of game development
- "Dungeon Con Online prioritizes marginalized people's safety over privileged people's comfort."
- "Dungeon Con Online reserves the right not to act on complaints of 'reverse' -isms, including 'reverse racism,' 'reverse sexism,' and 'cisphobia'." So if you are white and black person calls you a "cracker", you can just fuck right off.
- The Star Chamber Enforcement & Consequences process. Looks like they took a page out of the Obama era Title IX playbook
Yeah....I want nothing to do with all that. I'll buy and support stuff that doesn't put my head on a chopping block.
Quote from: 1989 on November 13, 2021, 10:48:15 AM
Privileged people's comfort
There is no doubt Goodman Games hates you, straight white males.
BRUTAL
Yup. I'm glad Goodman Games, those bastions of moral righteousness, are able to tell me who and who isn't privileged (using skin tone, genitals, and appearance no-less)!
Wonder about the legal case to be made here that these events (depending on jurisdiction) are violating equal protection laws. Having explicit written rules discriminating against people based on race/sex (and, while they could claim otherwise, everyone knows what those words mean) seems like it opens the door to litigation if you're actually harmed (and arguably, everyone who attends is harmed by the chilling & hostile environment they create).
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 13, 2021, 10:44:09 AM
Quote from: dkabq on November 13, 2021, 10:30:00 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 13, 2021, 08:16:00 AM
Ok, for the con game, play/run by con rules. No big deal. For your own games, in your own spaces, run how you (and your players) like. This isn't really hard to understand.
You have a point, if at a con, play/run by the con's rules. But fuck beans, have you read the rules?
- safety tools
- the requirement to routinely reaffirm pronouns
- the requirement to routinely check-in to affirm enthusiastic agreement of game development
- "Dungeon Con Online prioritizes marginalized people's safety over privileged people's comfort."
- "Dungeon Con Online reserves the right not to act on complaints of 'reverse' -isms, including 'reverse racism,' 'reverse sexism,' and 'cisphobia'." So if you are white and black person calls you a "cracker", you can just fuck right off.
- The Star Chamber Enforcement & Consequences process. Looks like they took a page out of the Obama era Title IX playbook
Last con I went to was in 2004. I didn't much care for it, and since I prefer home/private games and can shop either online or through local store (the two overlap somewhat in central Florida), I've never felt much desire to go to another con. If I did, I would read the rules (and yes, those rules would push me back towards not wanting to go). If for some reason I still decided to go there and run a game, then I'd follow the rules just like I follow rules at work that I may not entirely agree with.
Sounds like we are in agreement. Must be a sign of the coming end of days. :P
I lived in Central Florida/Orlando in the long, long ago. Did you ever patronize Enterprise 1701?
Quote from: GusB on November 13, 2021, 08:25:31 AM
Don't go to Goodman's Cons and give them money because they are Full Woke. No Big Deal. Tell others about Goodman's Full Wokeness so they can make a choice not to go. No Big Deal. Don't buy their products because I don't want to support a Full Woke company. No Big Deal. Inform others about Goodman's Full Wokeness so they can make the choice not to buy Goodman's products. No Big Deal.
We can all play the "No Big Deal" game too.
Greetings!
*Laughing* BEAUTIFUL commentary!
So true. All these Leftist, SJW shills like to spin and minimize the efforts of normal people in dealing with cultural subversion, ultimately in the hope that you will shut the fuck up and submit to the brainwashing and the corruption of society. Because, well, "It's no big deal."
Well, normal people can resist and be informed, and encourage others not to submit to the corruption, and not to continue to support these corrupt companies. ;D Because, after all, "It's no big deal." ;D Fucking love it. ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: 1989 on November 13, 2021, 10:48:15 AM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on November 13, 2021, 10:25:23 AM
Quote from: Dungeon Con Online Code of Conduct
Dungeon Con Online prioritizes marginalized people's safety over privileged people's comfort.
Dungeon Con Online reserves the right not to act on complaints of 'reverse' -isms, including
'reverse racism,' 'reverse sexism,' and 'cisphobia'.
Dungeon Con Online reserves the right not to act on complaints against the reasonable
communication of boundaries, such as "leave me alone," "go away," or "I'm not discussing this
with you."
Dungeon Con Online reserves the right not to act on complaints of someone communicating in
a 'tone' you don't find congenial.
Dungeon Con Online reserves the right not to act on complaints against criticisms of racist,
sexist, cissexist, or otherwise oppressive behavior or assumptions.
Holy crap. I can't believe I missed that.
Privileged people's comfort
There is no doubt Goodman Games hates you, straight white males.
BRUTAL
Greeings!
Damn, yeah, that's right. Fucking Goodman Games can burn, then. This whole Con Rules thing they have here is absolutely horrific.
Why aren't all these companies doing these things being sued?
If you had a company selling X, or hosting a convention about A, but posted requirements and policies that stated the opposite of these things, aimed at minorities, gays, or women, I would think there would be all kinds of lawsuits, or at the very least an avalanche of hate-filled, angry press coverage.
Fucking amazing these companies do these kinds of things and somehow, just giggle self-righteously and get away with it.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
The only rule you ever need at a con, table or otherwise is, 'don't be a dick'.
All that other shit is just to lick the arses of the woke scolds in the hope you sell some more copies of your whateverthefuck.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 13, 2021, 12:13:25 PM
The only rule you ever need at a con, table or otherwise is, 'don't be a dick'.
All that other shit is just to lick the arses of the woke scolds in the hope you sell some more copies of your whateverthefuck.
I dont agree. YOU have one rule (which I agree with), but THEY have many according to that document. There are plenty of other games to sink my time and energy into.
Quote from: Fantacide on November 13, 2021, 12:28:35 PM
but THEY have many according to that document. There are plenty of other games to sink my time and energy into.
Oh, fuck those guys... I just mean when you're at a table you should be a decent person.
Same as if I go over to someone's house for a drink. I'm going to be polite. That does'nt mean I won't speak my mind, however. ;D
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 13, 2021, 12:33:20 PM
Quote from: Fantacide on November 13, 2021, 12:28:35 PM
but THEY have many according to that document. There are plenty of other games to sink my time and energy into.
Oh, fuck those guys... I just mean when you're at a table you should be a decent person.
Same as if I go over to someone's house for a drink. I'm going to be polite. That does'nt mean I won't speak my mind, however. ;D
Greetings!
Right right, Rob!
I remember my early experiences going to cons in the 80's and 90's. They basically hadthree spoken--or nspoken rules.
(1) Obey the Laws
(2) Don't be a Dick
(3) No fucking anywhere outside of your hotel room.
Most Cons then were a mix of everyone--some older grognards, some wives and family, a good number of kids, and of course, a whole bunch of horny, rowdy adolescents and younger adults.
The places were bursting with RPG's and D&D, but also board games, like Third Reich and Squad Leader. There were usually one or two large movie rooms, showing Excalibur, Alien, and other sci-fi, fantasy, and historical movies, like 24/7. Any hour, day or night, there was usualy a dozen or two dozen people in these rooms watching movies.
Food and snacks everywhere. People going about, laughing, screaming, chasing each other. Some people in costumes. A rather large number of women, too. Huge rooms where grognards had MINIATURES set up, with enormous, elaborate and complex terrain covering the tables, depicting battles in Normandy, Iwo Jima, Stalingrad. Family games rooms, all kinds of things. Asults drinking alcohol in various areas.
I mean, it was a crazy, fun, open atmosphere, for four days straight, 24 hours a day. The Cons/Hotels just didn't want anyone to be a dick; no alcohol going to minors; and no fucking in public; and everyone just having fun.
That was it. THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE, at all of these conventions, every year. No stupid, insulting fucking requirements or rules. No scandals, no BS going on. No hatred, racism, or discrimination going on against anyone. No one cared what fucking colour you were. Men and women alike were all welcome. Kids, adults, older people, were all welcome.
And I love this. At one convention, every year, there was this huge black man that always wore a Nazi Officer's Uniform, swastika armband, polished black leather boots and everything, as he hosted some Word War II Miniature Wargame. He was a 25 year veteran of the US Army. ;D
Those were the days when game conventions were fun, rational, reasonable, and fucking normal. I remember always be treated like a welcome guest by every staff member, security, bartender, whoever.
And the people attending? All were generally wonderful people, who were always looking to make new friends, enjoy gaming, and welcome new gamers to their games, or themselves trying new games, and enjoying meeting new, fun and interesting people.
It boggles me that so many game conventions are turning into fucking cesspools of hatred and absolute stupidity.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote
That is very clearly not what they mean here. What they mean here is that any player can stop the game at any time and make any kind of demand about things that should be taken out or put into the game or that the GM change a ruling for any reason, because this is a "collaborative storytelling game" run by the players, not the GM and he doesn't have the authority to do anything without the player's "consent".
Which is all bullshit. The one and ONLY "right" that a player has at the table is the right to walk away whenever they like. That's the entire nature of the social contract in a regular gaming table.
Rulings, not rules. Each gaming table is it's own entity. And the power distribution depends of people agreeing to play in specific way.
So no your way may be older - but it's in no way some Platonic ideal.
For instance it can be whole team kicking GM off, and if it's all against one, and they pick another GM among themselves to continue gaming - I think we can all agree right (and in such situation ironically might makes right) was on their side, and GM was walked away never to return. Because he does not constitutes the table. Table is Commonwealth. And Presidents can be impeached.
Now I'm more on trad side myself - but on the other hand, new ways were born, because terrible railroading GM's homeruling games without telling player, ignoring rolls when inconvinient were a thing. I would say in 90's and early 00's they were a plague. And this is part PC, but part backlash against it. Of course I doubt it would work well, because problem is - there is too much lazy players unwilling to take GM's mantle, and so the laws of market allows asshole GMs to fluorish.
QuoteThat ONLY right is the only one needed. If the GM doesn't keep his players engaged and enjoying thr game, that game can be killed,, so that right is veto power.
Worse game can continue without him :3
QuoteThe format of regulations like the ones given for the Goodman Con creates a situation where a player can INSIST that they will NOT leave the game, and the GM must do whatever they want, and if the GM tries to kick the player out of his table, he will be the one sanctioned for his "bigotry".
Well yes but on GoodmanCon table belongs neither to players nor to GM. It belongs to Goodman Games, and they loan them to players for a time, under certain rules.
And as they physically own table... you get it. So it was never GM's table in the first place. He was never a king, nor a president, merely herold, or mercenary sergeant.
QuoteSo it turns DMs into powerless puppets there to do the whims of whoever is the loudest demographic at the table.
Whoever wants to DM to bunch of randoms at convention deserves any kind of doom they shall meet.
QuoteThey often have their con pass payed for if they agree to DM so they might be kicked from the con for not DMing
Well damn, that makes them even less lords of table, and more hired goons. You wanna table, you buy your own. And if you are bought by a table, tough shit.
QuoteAnybody okay with any publisher using they/them as a neutral gender term is a Woke ally. It doesn't matter if the Chicago Manual of Style or whatever puts "they" in the style guide... If you can't tell or see how politically moved all these changes have been for their purposes of subverting and inverting language than that's what they want. Our language is being subverted. Our culture is being systematically targeted and those behind it know what they are doing. Getting the Chicago Style of Grammar or whatever it's called to go along with it is just another win for these evil bastards.
I am not the manichean. As we discussed before singular they for unspecified subject is thing for 600 fucking years of English development. (And it mostly sounds better in such occurences at least for me non-native). So if that's amount of woke incoming - I could not care less. If leftists gonna do something fine once upon a time, I'm not gonna scoff in name of Absolute War.
Quote"Well it's okay if Goodman Games uses they, but if they use Xe then that's too far." ... This is exactly the kind of thinking the Woke Left want people to have. This is what let's these people get away with all their Woke crap.
Well no. Woke Left want us to accept xir, zer, dun and bunny pronouns, or will scream, and whine, and cancel us. There is no half-way, not nowadays with those bastards.
That's precisely why I have no problem with cherrypicking those moments when broken clock shows right time here and there for my private pleasure.
QuoteWhy should the DM have to leave their game because of one Jabroni is not affirming "enthusiastic agreement of game development"? Just that situation occurring is a CoC violation that could lead to you being sanctioned or expelled from the con.
Because he is mercenary in service of ruthless ConLords and he shall do as they order him to.
That's the deal. The only consent Con-GM has in his game, is stop GMing for Cons, and return to his basement.
QuoteThe only rule you ever need at a con, table or otherwise is, 'don't be a dick'.
All that other shit is just to lick the arses of the woke scolds in the hope you sell some more copies of your whateverthefuck.
That's terrible rule for any public gathering where lot of people not knowing themselves gonna met. It's imprecise in all possible ways, unless we interpret it as ban to all men (and women!) named Richard :P Sorry Mr. Cheney - no con for you :P
QuoteThose were the days when game conventions were fun, rational, reasonable, and fucking normal. I remember always be treated like a welcome guest by every staff member, security, bartender, whoever.
And the people attending? All were generally wonderful people, who were always looking to make new friends, enjoy gaming, and welcome new gamers to their games, or themselves trying new games, and enjoying meeting new, fun and interesting people.
It boggles me that so many game conventions are turning into fucking cesspools of hatred and absolute stupidity.
Because generally loosely defined rules works only in generally monocultural societies, and US is not a one, and it's less and less anything like this with every passing years. And more divergent society - the more specific rules to judge. Cannot say I condemn it, when we were planning our CatholicCon in Poland, which fizzled due to pandemic unfortunetely our Rules were definitely more than "not be dick". We also have rules against furrysuits, lewd behaviour, mini skirts, and Calvinism.
Quote from: Wrath of God on November 13, 2021, 02:34:26 PM
Quote
That is very clearly not what they mean here. What they mean here is that any player can stop the game at any time and make any kind of demand about things that should be taken out or put into the game or that the GM change a ruling for any reason, because this is a "collaborative storytelling game" run by the players, not the GM and he doesn't have the authority to do anything without the player's "consent".
Which is all bullshit. The one and ONLY "right" that a player has at the table is the right to walk away whenever they like. That's the entire nature of the social contract in a regular gaming table.
Rulings, not rules. Each gaming table is it's own entity. And the power distribution depends of people agreeing to play in specific way.
So no your way may be older - but it's in no way some Platonic ideal.
For instance it can be whole team kicking GM off, and if it's all against one, and they pick another GM among themselves to continue gaming - I think we can all agree right (and in such situation ironically might makes right) was on their side, and GM was walked away never to return. Because he does not constitutes the table. Table is Commonwealth. And Presidents can be impeached.
Now I'm more on trad side myself - but on the other hand, new ways were born, because terrible railroading GM's homeruling games without telling player, ignoring rolls when inconvinient were a thing. I would say in 90's and early 00's they were a plague. And this is part PC, but part backlash against it. Of course I doubt it would work well, because problem is - there is too much lazy players unwilling to take GM's mantle, and so the laws of market allows asshole GMs to fluorish.
QuoteThat ONLY right is the only one needed. If the GM doesn't keep his players engaged and enjoying thr game, that game can be killed,, so that right is veto power.
Worse game can continue without him :3
QuoteThe format of regulations like the ones given for the Goodman Con creates a situation where a player can INSIST that they will NOT leave the game, and the GM must do whatever they want, and if the GM tries to kick the player out of his table, he will be the one sanctioned for his "bigotry".
Well yes but on GoodmanCon table belongs neither to players nor to GM. It belongs to Goodman Games, and they loan them to players for a time, under certain rules.
And as they physically own table... you get it. So it was never GM's table in the first place. He was never a king, nor a president, merely herold, or mercenary sergeant.
QuoteSo it turns DMs into powerless puppets there to do the whims of whoever is the loudest demographic at the table.
Whoever wants to DM to bunch of randoms at convention deserves any kind of doom they shall meet.
QuoteThey often have their con pass payed for if they agree to DM so they might be kicked from the con for not DMing
Well damn, that makes them even less lords of table, and more hired goons. You wanna table, you buy your own. And if you are bought by a table, tough shit.
QuoteAnybody okay with any publisher using they/them as a neutral gender term is a Woke ally. It doesn't matter if the Chicago Manual of Style or whatever puts "they" in the style guide... If you can't tell or see how politically moved all these changes have been for their purposes of subverting and inverting language than that's what they want. Our language is being subverted. Our culture is being systematically targeted and those behind it know what they are doing. Getting the Chicago Style of Grammar or whatever it's called to go along with it is just another win for these evil bastards.
I am not the manichean. As we discussed before singular they for unspecified subject is thing for 600 fucking years of English development. (And it mostly sounds better in such occurences at least for me non-native). So if that's amount of woke incoming - I could not care less. If leftists gonna do something fine once upon a time, I'm not gonna scoff in name of Absolute War.
Quote"Well it's okay if Goodman Games uses they, but if they use Xe then that's too far." ... This is exactly the kind of thinking the Woke Left want people to have. This is what let's these people get away with all their Woke crap.
Well no. Woke Left want us to accept xir, zer, dun and bunny pronouns, or will scream, and whine, and cancel us. There is no half-way, not nowadays with those bastards.
That's precisely why I have no problem with cherrypicking those moments when broken clock shows right time here and there for my private pleasure.
QuoteWhy should the DM have to leave their game because of one Jabroni is not affirming "enthusiastic agreement of game development"? Just that situation occurring is a CoC violation that could lead to you being sanctioned or expelled from the con.
Because he is mercenary in service of ruthless ConLords and he shall do as they order him to.
That's the deal. The only consent Con-GM has in his game, is stop GMing for Cons, and return to his basement.
QuoteThe only rule you ever need at a con, table or otherwise is, 'don't be a dick'.
All that other shit is just to lick the arses of the woke scolds in the hope you sell some more copies of your whateverthefuck.
That's terrible rule for any public gathering where lot of people not knowing themselves gonna met. It's imprecise in all possible ways, unless we interpret it as ban to all men (and women!) named Richard :P Sorry Mr. Cheney - no con for you :P
QuoteThose were the days when game conventions were fun, rational, reasonable, and fucking normal. I remember always be treated like a welcome guest by every staff member, security, bartender, whoever.
And the people attending? All were generally wonderful people, who were always looking to make new friends, enjoy gaming, and welcome new gamers to their games, or themselves trying new games, and enjoying meeting new, fun and interesting people.
It boggles me that so many game conventions are turning into fucking cesspools of hatred and absolute stupidity.
Because generally loosely defined rules works only in generally monocultural societies, and US is not a one, and it's less and less anything like this with every passing years. And more divergent society - the more specific rules to judge. Cannot say I condemn it, when we were planning our CatholicCon in Poland, which fizzled due to pandemic unfortunetely our Rules were definitely more than "not be dick". We also have rules against furrysuits, lewd behaviour, mini skirts, and Calvinism.
Bolding mine
So you think players have the right to kick me out of MY table at my house because they are more than me?
Or is it just in conventions where you think that enough dangerhairs at your table means you get to be kicked out of it and the convention because you refused to suck the feminine benis?
Mind you, I'm talking especifically about woketard rules, not sane normal rules at conventions.
To add to the style guide discussion Microsoft also has a Style guide that is well used in the tech industry. I'm not sure how woke a style guide is matters all that much as most companies with a Tech Pubs department will develop their own in house style guide based on Chicago or Microsoft or whatever and the woke type-stuff is gonna be something they look at carefully instead of just accepting.
I also think Goodman Games is just virtue signaling. The way the owner brought it up in the video, he was so damned proud they could finally update that historical error he made long ago, it was kind of sad.
It all depends on where the game is located. If it is at the DM house than the only option is to walk away if the DM is being a duct to the players. Or asking the okayed to leave if they are being a duck to the DM.
Outside of their homes if the DM: player are also being ducks then yeah I won't hesitate to kick one of the other or both out. Being either does not confer some imagined immunity from being tossed out of a game and someone else home.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 12, 2021, 06:51:50 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 04:12:33 PM
I don't think anyone is "winning" by fanning the burning shit heaps that get made of even the tiniest issues that arise. But you make money from it all, so I get why you're so into spritzing kerosene onto the tiniest embers. You do you.
And none of the woke scolds make money from playing their monotonous sludge? Gimme a break... Virtually all those muppets scrounge about with their patreon and paypal constantly seeking donations. And what do they create for the most part 'nout? They just bleat on about their woke crapola. So what do they really contribute to the hobby? Nothing of real substance.
At least Pundit is a creator, and can sell games and supplements.
Around 120 games and supplements, and counting.
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 06:57:23 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 06:20:25 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 04:14:11 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 04:04:23 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 03:55:22 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 03:51:10 PM
Quote from: Haffrung on November 12, 2021, 06:15:50 AM
Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 04:36:33 PM
In general, English isn't closely prescribed - and usage will vary, especially in conversation and non-formal writing like fiction and RPGs.
RPG books are rules documents - a kind of formal writing. Any professional writers, editors, and publishers worth their salt adhere to a style guide. Something like the Chicago Manual of Style. And 'they' as a singular pronoun is increasingly being recognized in professional style guides. The last three companies I've worked for - two of them oil and gas companies - did not use gendered pronouns in their documentation.
Goodman are doing nothing more than adopting the new norms of language. It might satisfy the tribal allegiances of some here if DCC defied those norms. But it's a businesses trying to meet market and professional standards, not a political actor flying the flag of some faction of fandom.
Their Con guidelines beg to differ. They're apparently proudly flying the flag of "geek feminism" and "player autonomy" (ie. Forge bullshit where players get veto power over the GM).
Players always have a degree of veto power over the GM. They can choose not to play, and if enough of them choose that, the GM now has a playerless game. The players can then put together the game they want, and if the GM is too much of an ass about the whole thing, they might not be invited to join. That applies beyond games too...there's a degree of veto power in almost any social group activity.
That is very clearly not what they mean here. What they mean here is that any player can stop the game at any time and make any kind of demand about things that should be taken out or put into the game or that the GM change a ruling for any reason, because this is a "collaborative storytelling game" run by the players, not the GM and he doesn't have the authority to do anything without the player's "consent".
Which is all bullshit. The one and ONLY "right" that a player has at the table is the right to walk away whenever they like. That's the entire nature of the social contract in a regular gaming table.
That ONLY right is the only one needed. If the GM doesn't keep his players engaged and enjoying thr game, that game can be killed,, so that right is veto power.
The format of regulations like the ones given for the Goodman Con creates a situation where a player can INSIST that they will NOT leave the game, and the GM must do whatever they want, and if the GM tries to kick the player out of his table, he will be the one sanctioned for his "bigotry".
So it turns DMs into powerless puppets there to do the whims of whoever is the loudest demographic at the table.
The DM retsins the same right to leave the game as any other player. Does the con somehow bind them to run a game they don't want to run/play? What are the consequences they would face for just stating "I'm done here" or just humming out a test pattern for the remainder of the time slot?
So you are now cheering a system that switches from a natural hierarchy (of THE GUY RUNNING THE WORLD being the one in charge of what happens in it, and everyone else individually has the right to walk away) to a system where one primma donna psychopathic asshole can HOLD AN ENTIRE GROUP HOSTAGE with as unreasonable demands as they like, as long as their demographics and/or politics are the correct type.
You could have a table of 5 great well-intentioned players, a great and well intentioned DM, and 1 sociopath using leftist ideology to get whatever they want, and you're saying that instead of being able to throw out the 1 bad apple the gaming group should be FORCED to either cater to his every little whim, or the entire group must be cancelled and not allowed to continue, because to dismiss the one special leftist puppy would be bigoted. That's your argument?
Quote from: Fantacide on November 13, 2021, 10:58:12 AM
Quote from: dkabq on November 13, 2021, 10:30:00 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 13, 2021, 08:16:00 AM
Ok, for the con game, play/run by con rules. No big deal. For your own games, in your own spaces, run how you (and your players) like. This isn't really hard to understand.
You have a point, if at a con, play/run by the con's rules. But fuck beans, have you read the rules?
- safety tools
- the requirement to routinely reaffirm pronouns
- the requirement to routinely check-in to affirm enthusiastic agreement of game development
- "Dungeon Con Online prioritizes marginalized people's safety over privileged people's comfort."
- "Dungeon Con Online reserves the right not to act on complaints of 'reverse' -isms, including 'reverse racism,' 'reverse sexism,' and 'cisphobia'." So if you are white and black person calls you a "cracker", you can just fuck right off.
- The Star Chamber Enforcement & Consequences process. Looks like they took a page out of the Obama era Title IX playbook
Yeah....I want nothing to do with all that. I'll buy and support stuff that doesn't put my head on a chopping block.
Note to everyone: if you like DCC and the type of setting it encourages, but no longer want to spend money on Goodman games, I would suggest checking out my World of the Last Sun (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/336819/RPGPundit-Presents-World-of-the-Last-Sun) setting book/supplement, and the various Last Sun "RPGPundit Presents" issues (like the Frantabulous Robot Generator I recently did a video about), all of which are based on my nearly decade-long DCC campaign.
Quote from: Fantacide on November 13, 2021, 10:58:12 AM
Quote from: dkabq on November 13, 2021, 10:30:00 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 13, 2021, 08:16:00 AM
Ok, for the con game, play/run by con rules. No big deal. For your own games, in your own spaces, run how you (and your players) like. This isn't really hard to understand.
You have a point, if at a con, play/run by the con's rules. But fuck beans, have you read the rules?
- safety tools
- the requirement to routinely reaffirm pronouns
- the requirement to routinely check-in to affirm enthusiastic agreement of game development
- "Dungeon Con Online prioritizes marginalized people's safety over privileged people's comfort."
- "Dungeon Con Online reserves the right not to act on complaints of 'reverse' -isms, including 'reverse racism,' 'reverse sexism,' and 'cisphobia'." So if you are white and black person calls you a "cracker", you can just fuck right off.
- The Star Chamber Enforcement & Consequences process. Looks like they took a page out of the Obama era Title IX playbook
Yeah....I want nothing to do with all that. I'll buy and support stuff that doesn't put my head on a chopping block.
Greetings!
Hmmm...how about the requirement that "Dungeon Con Online" takes their fucking woke agenda and shoves it up their ass?
I am a DM, and I will run a fucking game table as *I* see fit. Goodman Games can get fucked entirely. I will run the fucking game table MY WAY, or I can easily attend a different con, or not go to a con at all. I'd be sure to tell all my friends never to give them a nickel, and refuse to attend any con sponsored by or attended by Goodman Games.
That's MY requirement. Fucking woke morons.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
If you know the rules going into a con, and you don't like them, either don't go, or don't bitch.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on November 13, 2021, 04:55:39 PM
If you know the rules going into a con, and you don't like them, either don't go, or don't bitch.
That's exactly what I did. I'm just letting others know about their policies so they can make their own decisions.
Quote
Bolding mine
So you think players have the right to kick me out of MY table at my house because they are more than me?
And who told that game is played in GM's place? It can be played in public place. Or in one of player's basement.
Also quite obviously I talk about table as certain gathering, not furniture. Furniture belongs to whoever they belongs, and whether gaming table can meet at certain wooden table depends of wooden table's owner.
But they can kick GM out of team, and continue the same game without him.
Quote
Or is it just in conventions where you think that enough dangerhairs at your table means you get to be kicked out of it and the convention because you refused to suck the feminine benis?
Mind you, I'm talking especifically about woketard rules, not sane normal rules at conventions.
If given wooden table belongs to convention then convention can ban you for whatever really within legal system of your country. They own it.
Now of course in cerain way you own you conGame as mental construct so you can say orgs Fuck You, gather all players aside of this green-haired spider-fearing xir Aztec and invite them to your house, and they cannot stop you.
QuoteI also think Goodman Games is just virtue signaling. The way the owner brought it up in the video, he was so damned proud they could finally update that historical error he made long ago, it was kind of sad.
Broke: Changing general pronouns to they, because it's more inclusive.
Joke: Keeping he as gender neutral to own woke.
Bespoke: Changing general pronouns to they, because you reject any changes to English implemented by bloody protestants.
QuoteIt all depends on where the game is located. If it is at the DM house than the only option is to walk away if the DM is being a duct to the players. Or asking the okayed to leave if they are being a duck to the DM.
Outside of their homes if the DM: player are also being ducks then yeah I won't hesitate to kick one of the other or both out. Being either does not confer some imagined immunity from being tossed out of a game and someone else home
Based.
QuoteSo you are now cheering a system that switches from a natural hierarchy (of THE GUY RUNNING THE WORLD being the one in charge of what happens in it, and everyone else individually has the right to walk away) to a system where one primma donna psychopathic asshole can HOLD AN ENTIRE GROUP HOSTAGE with as unreasonable demands as they like, as long as their demographics and/or politics are the correct type.
That's because natural hierarchy on con, is that con orgs are top hierarchy not GM's quite obviously.
That's why I always considered con-games to meh, even in muh better times.
But also it generally is no... natural hierarchy. There's nothing natural about RPG, generally speaking.
It's convinient hierarchy because most of players are well content with being character players, and they want to throw all heavy work on GM's. And that - aside of cons - give GM real monarchic power. Lazy players. Not necessarily bad players, just content with their serf position. But the real nature of RPG is that it's free community of equal humans, so this position can be quite easily flipped, if players are more invested in world, rules, and not being railroaded by GM's bias.
And of course GM even if rules the world, does not owns him, so he can be replaced within scope of same game if he is asshole.
And that's how free cooperatives works.
For instance it's not unheard that there are campaigns, where 0 session is collaborative worldbuilding. Sometimes GM's enforces it to make PC's more engaged into world. Nevertheless while it's GM running such world later, he is still obliged by social contract to keep estabilished facts from session 0. And he can be, and should be in name of justice called out if he break it for sake of own unrealised novelist ambitions :P
QuoteYou could have a table of 5 great well-intentioned players, a great and well intentioned DM, and 1 sociopath using leftist ideology to get whatever they want, and you're saying that instead of being able to throw out the 1 bad apple the gaming group should be FORCED to either cater to his every little whim, or the entire group must be cancelled and not allowed to continue, because to dismiss the one special leftist puppy would be bigoted. That's your argument?
And you all agree to play not by yourself but on party organised by greedy corporate bastards willing to sell their and your souls in name of their actual PR and HR agenda.
Like you know Pundit as OSR player you should be quite familiar with fact that there are situations where you should just run out of particular dungeon rather than confront its denizens.
QuoteI am a DM, and I will run a fucking game table as *I* see fit. Goodman Games can get fucked entirely. I will run the fucking game table MY WAY, or I can easily attend a different con, or not go to a con at all. I'd be sure to tell all my friends never to give them a nickel, and refuse to attend any con sponsored by or attended by Goodman Games.
As long as you own specific wooden table, and have mutual agreement with your gaming table then you're welcome.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on November 13, 2021, 04:55:39 PM
If you know the rules going into a con, and you don't like them, either don't go, or don't bitch.
Greetings!
*Laughing* What the fuck?
I am a PAYING CUSTOMER. The fucking con is there to serve me. If they are seeking to provide a service to the public--in this case a game convention--but which is similar to any other market service, and such a participant or business has policies that I FIND INSULTING AND OFFENSIVE? Oh, hell fucking no! You damned right I am going to fucking BITCH ABOUT IT!
Just like I would write up a scathing online review of a restaurant or hotel. Just like when I have gotten shitty service on occasion from restaurants, guess what? I get the manager front and fucking center, and break them the fuck down. And if the management doesn't fucking hop to it and make me satisfied,--guess what then? I make a personal phone call to the fucking company and speak to a VP or some other executive, who I GUARANTEE will make me fucking happy, and jackhammer the stupid fucking employee that thought they could freely and willy-nily insult me, offend me, and ignore me.
I don't fucking think so.
Guess what happens when a business offends more people? They go fucking BROKE.
It's a general rule inside business, that when ONE CUSTOMER is OFFENDED, they will effect 10 additional customers, at a minimum. SUCCESSFUL companies and businesses take these kinds of things very seriously.
Damn right I am going to fucking bitch about it. And I will tell lots of my friends about it, too. I'll make sure word gets around real good.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: RebelSky on November 13, 2021, 08:54:30 AM
There is a book on Amazon I just found out about called Counter Wokecraft. It just got released. If you want to actually know about this Woke infestation and understand it then check it out. There is also a YouTube channel named New Discourses, by a guy named Mike Lindsey, who breaks down everything about the Woke from an academic perspective. I am not affiliated with either. I just prefer not to be ignorant.
I'm still in the introduction of that book. James Lindsay is very good. He has video after video explaining the woke bullshit, and I watch or listen to them all.
I corrected it because you messed up his name. :) Hopefully nobody beat me to that.
Quote from: dkabq on November 13, 2021, 11:37:23 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 13, 2021, 10:44:09 AM
Quote from: dkabq on November 13, 2021, 10:30:00 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 13, 2021, 08:16:00 AM
Ok, for the con game, play/run by con rules. No big deal. For your own games, in your own spaces, run how you (and your players) like. This isn't really hard to understand.
You have a point, if at a con, play/run by the con's rules. But fuck beans, have you read the rules?
- safety tools
- the requirement to routinely reaffirm pronouns
- the requirement to routinely check-in to affirm enthusiastic agreement of game development
- "Dungeon Con Online prioritizes marginalized people's safety over privileged people's comfort."
- "Dungeon Con Online reserves the right not to act on complaints of 'reverse' -isms, including 'reverse racism,' 'reverse sexism,' and 'cisphobia'." So if you are white and black person calls you a "cracker", you can just fuck right off.
- The Star Chamber Enforcement & Consequences process. Looks like they took a page out of the Obama era Title IX playbook
Last con I went to was in 2004. I didn't much care for it, and since I prefer home/private games and can shop either online or through local store (the two overlap somewhat in central Florida), I've never felt much desire to go to another con. If I did, I would read the rules (and yes, those rules would push me back towards not wanting to go). If for some reason I still decided to go there and run a game, then I'd follow the rules just like I follow rules at work that I may not entirely agree with.
Sounds like we are in agreement. Must be a sign of the coming end of days. :P
I lived in Central Florida/Orlando in the long, long ago. Did you ever patronize Enterprise 1701?
Back when it was by the Naval Training Center and again after thr move. Then they became sci-fi city and things went downhill.
Quote from: dkabq on November 13, 2021, 10:30:00 AM
You have a point, if at a con, play/run by the con's rules. But fuck beans, have you read the rules?
- safety tools
- the requirement to routinely reaffirm pronouns
- the requirement to routinely check-in to affirm enthusiastic agreement of game development
- "Dungeon Con Online prioritizes marginalized people's safety over privileged people's comfort."
- "Dungeon Con Online reserves the right not to act on complaints of 'reverse' -isms, including 'reverse racism,' 'reverse sexism,' and 'cisphobia'." So if you are white and black person calls you a "cracker", you can just fuck right off.
...
[/list]
This is too far. If you're going to respect people, respect everyone. Being a dick is not a racial stereotype. Anyone can be a dick.
Also, I haven't seen Safety Tools work. I've seen them introduced. Always saps the energy from the table. I'm sure some are panicking because the perverts running the game found a way to "politely" explore their trauma. The other bunch are wondering why we need to setup safe worlds to roll dice. No one EVER engages the STs. Well, I witnessed one pervert engage them. A story for another time...
Encouraging people to see your way of thinking is one thing - but enforcing shit like this just affirms that people don't like you and don't want to play with you.
Sidenote: can we stop posting the HUGE quotes please? Makes it hard to read your responses. Yes, I am reading your responses.
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 13, 2021, 03:37:18 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 06:57:23 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 06:20:25 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 04:14:11 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 04:04:23 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 03:55:22 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 03:51:10 PM
Quote from: Haffrung on November 12, 2021, 06:15:50 AM
Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 04:36:33 PM
In general, English isn't closely prescribed - and usage will vary, especially in conversation and non-formal writing like fiction and RPGs.
RPG books are rules documents - a kind of formal writing. Any professional writers, editors, and publishers worth their salt adhere to a style guide. Something like the Chicago Manual of Style. And 'they' as a singular pronoun is increasingly being recognized in professional style guides. The last three companies I've worked for - two of them oil and gas companies - did not use gendered pronouns in their documentation.
Goodman are doing nothing more than adopting the new norms of language. It might satisfy the tribal allegiances of some here if DCC defied those norms. But it's a businesses trying to meet market and professional standards, not a political actor flying the flag of some faction of fandom.
Their Con guidelines beg to differ. They're apparently proudly flying the flag of "geek feminism" and "player autonomy" (ie. Forge bullshit where players get veto power over the GM).
Players always have a degree of veto power over the GM. They can choose not to play, and if enough of them choose that, the GM now has a playerless game. The players can then put together the game they want, and if the GM is too much of an ass about the whole thing, they might not be invited to join. That applies beyond games too...there's a degree of veto power in almost any social group activity.
That is very clearly not what they mean here. What they mean here is that any player can stop the game at any time and make any kind of demand about things that should be taken out or put into the game or that the GM change a ruling for any reason, because this is a "collaborative storytelling game" run by the players, not the GM and he doesn't have the authority to do anything without the player's "consent".
Which is all bullshit. The one and ONLY "right" that a player has at the table is the right to walk away whenever they like. That's the entire nature of the social contract in a regular gaming table.
That ONLY right is the only one needed. If the GM doesn't keep his players engaged and enjoying thr game, that game can be killed,, so that right is veto power.
The format of regulations like the ones given for the Goodman Con creates a situation where a player can INSIST that they will NOT leave the game, and the GM must do whatever they want, and if the GM tries to kick the player out of his table, he will be the one sanctioned for his "bigotry".
So it turns DMs into powerless puppets there to do the whims of whoever is the loudest demographic at the table.
The DM retsins the same right to leave the game as any other player. Does the con somehow bind them to run a game they don't want to run/play? What are the consequences they would face for just stating "I'm done here" or just humming out a test pattern for the remainder of the time slot?
So you are now cheering a system that switches from a natural hierarchy (of THE GUY RUNNING THE WORLD being the one in charge of what happens in it, and everyone else individually has the right to walk away) to a system where one primma donna psychopathic asshole can HOLD AN ENTIRE GROUP HOSTAGE with as unreasonable demands as they like, as long as their demographics and/or politics are the correct type.
You could have a table of 5 great well-intentioned players, a great and well intentioned DM, and 1 sociopath using leftist ideology to get whatever they want, and you're saying that instead of being able to throw out the 1 bad apple the gaming group should be FORCED to either cater to his every little whim, or the entire group must be cancelled and not allowed to continue, because to dismiss the one special leftist puppy would be bigoted. That's your argument?
No, that isn't what I'm saying. However, if a significant portion of your players agree that what you're doing isn't fun/engaging (or is hostile/abusive) they can effectively kill your game by withdrawing and immediately selecting one of themselves to run a new game--possibly using the same setting, characters, and system (and you might get invited to play if you're not being too much of an ass).
Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 05:05:33 PM
Here are some more recent literary examples:
"Who is in love with her? Who makes you their confidant?" — Jane Austen, in Emma (1815)
"A person can't help their birth." — Rosalind, in William Makepeace Thackeray, Vanity Fair (1848)
"But how can you talk with a person if they always say the same thing?" ― Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass (1871)
"Nobody in their senses would give sixpence on the strength of a promissory note of the kind." — Lord Landsdowne in The Liberal Magazine (1914)
"She kept her head and kicked her shoes off, as everybody ought to do who falls into deep water in their clothes." — C.S. Lewis, in The Voyage of the Dawn Treader (1952)
An even more recent example:
"It rubs the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again." - Jame "Buffalo Bill" Gumb (1991)
QuoteI am a PAYING CUSTOMER. The fucking con is there to serve me. If they are seeking to provide a service to the public--in this case a game convention--but which is similar to any other market service, and such a participant or business has policies that I FIND INSULTING AND OFFENSIVE? Oh, hell fucking no! You damned right I am going to fucking BITCH ABOUT IT!
Just like I would write up a scathing online review of a restaurant or hotel. Just like when I have gotten shitty service on occasion from restaurants, guess what? I get the manager front and fucking center, and break them the fuck down. And if the management doesn't fucking hop to it and make me satisfied,--guess what then? I make a personal phone call to the fucking company and speak to a VP or some other executive, who I GUARANTEE will make me fucking happy, and jackhammer the stupid fucking employee that thought they could freely and willy-nily insult me, offend me, and ignore me.
Well yes, only... not.
Because dear SHARK, you knew what you are getting into. Especially if you get free con pass as a reward for your GMing.
If you go to woke con, and then gonna bitch about it's wokeness, then as much as I despise woke, you deserve being kicked out. It's like going to Mexican restaurant, order chicken in mango-habanero souce, and then be angry it was very spicy (twice).
And if Goodman Games are woke from the very top, I'm quite sure even executives will tell you "to fuck yourself, you alt-right warmonger nazi" or something like that. :P
QuoteI don't fucking think so.
Guess what happens when a business offends more people? They go fucking BROKE.
It's a general rule inside business, that when ONE CUSTOMER is OFFENDED, they will effect 10 additional customers, at a minimum. SUCCESSFUL companies and businesses take these kinds of things very seriously.
Damn right I am going to fucking bitch about it. And I will tell lots of my friends about it, too. I'll make sure word gets around real good.
Yeah, but so for woke RPG projects are able to get quite good cash of wokesters, and my general take of active and vocal RPG players in Anglosphere is very much turned towards left. So... I doubt they would care, about it. Not with generation Z paying them from their sorry ass wages.
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 13, 2021, 05:27:14 PM
Quote from: dkabq on November 13, 2021, 11:37:23 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 13, 2021, 10:44:09 AM
Quote from: dkabq on November 13, 2021, 10:30:00 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 13, 2021, 08:16:00 AM
Ok, for the con game, play/run by con rules. No big deal. For your own games, in your own spaces, run how you (and your players) like. This isn't really hard to understand.
You have a point, if at a con, play/run by the con's rules. But fuck beans, have you read the rules?
- safety tools
- the requirement to routinely reaffirm pronouns
- the requirement to routinely check-in to affirm enthusiastic agreement of game development
- "Dungeon Con Online prioritizes marginalized people's safety over privileged people's comfort."
- "Dungeon Con Online reserves the right not to act on complaints of 'reverse' -isms, including 'reverse racism,' 'reverse sexism,' and 'cisphobia'." So if you are white and black person calls you a "cracker", you can just fuck right off.
- The Star Chamber Enforcement & Consequences process. Looks like they took a page out of the Obama era Title IX playbook
Last con I went to was in 2004. I didn't much care for it, and since I prefer home/private games and can shop either online or through local store (the two overlap somewhat in central Florida), I've never felt much desire to go to another con. If I did, I would read the rules (and yes, those rules would push me back towards not wanting to go). If for some reason I still decided to go there and run a game, then I'd follow the rules just like I follow rules at work that I may not entirely agree with.
Sounds like we are in agreement. Must be a sign of the coming end of days. :P
I lived in Central Florida/Orlando in the long, long ago. Did you ever patronize Enterprise 1701?
Back when it was by the Naval Training Center and again after thr move. Then they became sci-fi city and things went downhill.
I went there when it was on Mills and Colonial, before they moved to by the Navel Training Center. It's where I purchased pretty much all of my RPG stuff back in the long, long, ago.
Quote from: SHARK on November 13, 2021, 01:27:02 PM
Greetings!
Right right, Rob!
I remember my early experiences going to cons in the 80's and 90's. They basically hadthree spoken--or nspoken rules.
(1) Obey the Laws
(2) Don't be a Dick
(3) No fucking anywhere outside of your hotel room.
It boggles me that so many game conventions are turning into fucking cesspools of hatred and absolute stupidity.
Indeed Shark! What more do you need? It's all about a bit of 'cop on' and common sense.
As you say, if was fine back then. And if there was a problem (which would be rare) the convention could deal with it there and then. No biggie... the games go on and everyone just has fun.
But now, they are being infiltrated by adult bed wetters and the cons can't roll over quick enough to lick their asses. ;D
Quote from: dkabq on November 13, 2021, 06:07:11 PM
I went there when it was on Mills and Colonial, before they moved to by the Navel Training Center. It's where I purchased pretty much all of my RPG stuff back in the long, long, ago.
I remember getting my copy of Game Design Vol. 1: Theory and Practice by SJG there way back when I was a teenager. I also used to go to the location by the navy base every time my unit went there for training which was pretty often. Ahh... the memories of a time when it was fun to go to the game store instead of now when it is all bland and disappointing. I can't even remember the last time I actually bought something at one.
Quote from: DocJones on November 13, 2021, 05:35:21 PM
Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 05:05:33 PM
...Trimmed...
An even more recent example:
"It rubs the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again." - Jame "Buffalo Bill" Gumb (1991)
Pretty big difference between using they/their for a singular referent rather than to refer to an unknown referent. It's dishonest to suggest that these are the same thing.
Quote from: DocJones on November 13, 2021, 05:35:21 PM
Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 05:05:33 PM
Here are some more recent literary examples:
"Who is in love with her? Who makes you their confidant?" — Jane Austen, in Emma (1815)
"A person can't help their birth." — Rosalind, in William Makepeace Thackeray, Vanity Fair (1848)
"But how can you talk with a person if they always say the same thing?" ― Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass (1871)
"Nobody in their senses would give sixpence on the strength of a promissory note of the kind." — Lord Landsdowne in The Liberal Magazine (1914)
"She kept her head and kicked her shoes off, as everybody ought to do who falls into deep water in their clothes." — C.S. Lewis, in The Voyage of the Dawn Treader (1952)
An even more recent example:
"It rubs the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again." - Jame "Buffalo Bill" Gumb (1991)
An excelent example of the dehumanizing language used by sick psychos.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on November 13, 2021, 10:25:23 AM
Quote from: dkabq on November 13, 2021, 10:11:17 AM
Why should the DM have to leave their game because of one Jabroni is not affirming "enthusiastic agreement of game development"? Just that situation occurring is a CoC violation that could lead to you being sanctioned or expelled from the con.
"Anyone who violates this Code of Conduct may be sanctioned or expelled from Dungeon Con Online at the discretion of the Dungeon Con Online Admin team."
Depends on the Identity/Ideology of the complainants:
Quote from: Dungeon Con Online Code of Conduct
Dungeon Con Online prioritizes marginalized people's safety over privileged people's comfort.
Dungeon Con Online reserves the right not to act on complaints of 'reverse' -isms, including
'reverse racism,' 'reverse sexism,' and 'cisphobia'.
Dungeon Con Online reserves the right not to act on complaints against the reasonable
communication of boundaries, such as "leave me alone," "go away," or "I'm not discussing this
with you."
Dungeon Con Online reserves the right not to act on complaints of someone communicating in
a 'tone' you don't find congenial.
Dungeon Con Online reserves the right not to act on complaints against criticisms of racist,
sexist, cissexist, or otherwise oppressive behavior or assumptions.
Where the hell is this? I'm hunting for it on the GMG website and the Dungeon Con Online website and I can't find it.
I mean, if they actually posted this horseshit, then they can pretty much kiss my money goodbye.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 14, 2021, 12:19:29 AM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on November 13, 2021, 10:25:23 AM
Quote from: dkabq on November 13, 2021, 10:11:17 AM
Why should the DM have to leave their game because of one Jabroni is not affirming "enthusiastic agreement of game development"? Just that situation occurring is a CoC violation that could lead to you being sanctioned or expelled from the con.
"Anyone who violates this Code of Conduct may be sanctioned or expelled from Dungeon Con Online at the discretion of the Dungeon Con Online Admin team."
Depends on the Identity/Ideology of the complainants:
Quote from: Dungeon Con Online Code of Conduct
Dungeon Con Online prioritizes marginalized people's safety over privileged people's comfort.
Dungeon Con Online reserves the right not to act on complaints of 'reverse' -isms, including
'reverse racism,' 'reverse sexism,' and 'cisphobia'.
Dungeon Con Online reserves the right not to act on complaints against the reasonable
communication of boundaries, such as "leave me alone," "go away," or "I'm not discussing this
with you."
Dungeon Con Online reserves the right not to act on complaints of someone communicating in
a 'tone' you don't find congenial.
Dungeon Con Online reserves the right not to act on complaints against criticisms of racist,
sexist, cissexist, or otherwise oppressive behavior or assumptions.
Where the hell is this? I'm hunting for it on the GMG website and the Dungeon Con Online website and I can't find it.
I mean, if they actually posted this horseshit, then they can pretty much kiss my money goodbye.
Here ya go, right on the GG website:
https://goodman-games.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/DCO-Policies.pdf
Quote from: RebelSky on November 13, 2021, 08:54:30 AM
Anybody okay with any publisher using they/them as a neutral gender term is a Woke ally. It doesn't matter if the Chicago Manual of Style or whatever puts "they" in the style guide... If you can't tell or see how politically moved all these changes have been for their purposes of subverting and inverting language than that's what they want. Our language is being subverted. Our culture is being systematically targeted and those behind it know what they are doing. Getting the Chicago Style of Grammar or whatever it's called to go along with it is just another win for these evil bastards.
This is exactly one of the reasons I so despise the current Woke and SJW cult. Because sure enough some morons going to look at my book written 25 fucking years ago, see "they" and sanctimoniously declare it "Woke" and then I'll want both to just fucking die.
The woke cult, just like the storygamer cult, poisons the well, salts the earth, and blows up the planet.
Quote from: kreegan on November 14, 2021, 12:24:09 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 14, 2021, 12:19:29 AM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on November 13, 2021, 10:25:23 AM
Quote from: dkabq on November 13, 2021, 10:11:17 AM
Why should the DM have to leave their game because of one Jabroni is not affirming "enthusiastic agreement of game development"? Just that situation occurring is a CoC violation that could lead to you being sanctioned or expelled from the con.
"Anyone who violates this Code of Conduct may be sanctioned or expelled from Dungeon Con Online at the discretion of the Dungeon Con Online Admin team."
Depends on the Identity/Ideology of the complainants:
Quote from: Dungeon Con Online Code of Conduct
Dungeon Con Online prioritizes marginalized people's safety over privileged people's comfort.
Dungeon Con Online reserves the right not to act on complaints of 'reverse' -isms, including
'reverse racism,' 'reverse sexism,' and 'cisphobia'.
Dungeon Con Online reserves the right not to act on complaints against the reasonable
communication of boundaries, such as "leave me alone," "go away," or "I'm not discussing this
with you."
Dungeon Con Online reserves the right not to act on complaints of someone communicating in
a 'tone' you don't find congenial.
Dungeon Con Online reserves the right not to act on complaints against criticisms of racist,
sexist, cissexist, or otherwise oppressive behavior or assumptions.
Where the hell is this? I'm hunting for it on the GMG website and the Dungeon Con Online website and I can't find it.
I mean, if they actually posted this horseshit, then they can pretty much kiss my money goodbye.
Here ya go, right on the GG website:
https://goodman-games.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/DCO-Policies.pdf
Thank you, Kreegan. Just wanted to get confirmation.
Yar, har, fiddle dee dee, being a pirate is alright with me!
Quote from: dkabq on November 13, 2021, 06:07:11 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 13, 2021, 05:27:14 PM
Quote from: dkabq on November 13, 2021, 11:37:23 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 13, 2021, 10:44:09 AM
Quote from: dkabq on November 13, 2021, 10:30:00 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 13, 2021, 08:16:00 AM
Ok, for the con game, play/run by con rules. No big deal. For your own games, in your own spaces, run how you (and your players) like. This isn't really hard to understand.
You have a point, if at a con, play/run by the con's rules. But fuck beans, have you read the rules?
- safety tools
- the requirement to routinely reaffirm pronouns
- the requirement to routinely check-in to affirm enthusiastic agreement of game development
- "Dungeon Con Online prioritizes marginalized people's safety over privileged people's comfort."
- "Dungeon Con Online reserves the right not to act on complaints of 'reverse' -isms, including 'reverse racism,' 'reverse sexism,' and 'cisphobia'." So if you are white and black person calls you a "cracker", you can just fuck right off.
- The Star Chamber Enforcement & Consequences process. Looks like they took a page out of the Obama era Title IX playbook
Last con I went to was in 2004. I didn't much care for it, and since I prefer home/private games and can shop either online or through local store (the two overlap somewhat in central Florida), I've never felt much desire to go to another con. If I did, I would read the rules (and yes, those rules would push me back towards not wanting to go). If for some reason I still decided to go there and run a game, then I'd follow the rules just like I follow rules at work that I may not entirely agree with.
Sounds like we are in agreement. Must be a sign of the coming end of days. :P
I lived in Central Florida/Orlando in the long, long ago. Did you ever patronize Enterprise 1701?
Back when it was by the Naval Training Center and again after thr move. Then they became sci-fi city and things went downhill.
I went there when it was on Mills and Colonial, before they moved to by the Navel Training Center. It's where I purchased pretty much all of my RPG stuff back in the long, long, ago.
This brings back memories. Wasn't it on Corinne Dr in the same strip mall as a GEICO that used to prey on NTC students with high APR mustangs? I spent more than a few weekends gaming in the common room in our barracks while there.
Bummer. I just started getting into DCC and MCC.
Quote from: Hakdov on November 13, 2021, 07:11:54 PM
Quote from: dkabq on November 13, 2021, 06:07:11 PM
I went there when it was on Mills and Colonial, before they moved to by the Navel Training Center. It's where I purchased pretty much all of my RPG stuff back in the long, long, ago.
I remember getting my copy of Game Design Vol. 1: Theory and Practice by SJG there way back when I was a teenager. I also used to go to the location by the navy base every time my unit went there for training which was pretty often. Ahh... the memories of a time when it was fun to go to the game store instead of now when it is all bland and disappointing. I can't even remember the last time I actually bought something at one.
I remember going there after NTC boot camp and through A school and NNPS. Gaming helped me stay sane during that time.
Quote from: jeff37923 on November 14, 2021, 09:36:44 AM
Quote from: Hakdov on November 13, 2021, 07:11:54 PM
Quote from: dkabq on November 13, 2021, 06:07:11 PM
I went there when it was on Mills and Colonial, before they moved to by the Navel Training Center. It's where I purchased pretty much all of my RPG stuff back in the long, long, ago.
I remember getting my copy of Game Design Vol. 1: Theory and Practice by SJG there way back when I was a teenager. I also used to go to the location by the navy base every time my unit went there for training which was pretty often. Ahh... the memories of a time when it was fun to go to the game store instead of now when it is all bland and disappointing. I can't even remember the last time I actually bought something at one.
I remember going there after NTC boot camp and through A school and NNPS. Gaming helped me stay sane during that time.
This. I was always somewhere between Suggested 15 and Suggested 20 study hours at NNPS, which still left plenty of time to game. To a guy without a car, Enterprise 1701 was a close enough walk. One I got my car, though, I spent much more time far far away from the barracks, so my gaming went down.
I wonder how far these organizer dweebs will go in the future?
I mean, if the twitter bed wetters don't like say, 'all orcs are eeeevil' as one example. Does that mean that the organizer's could stop you having filthy, stupid and savage orcs? Or will you have to start sending in your adventures - so they can be scrutinized by some sensitivity reader gimp. Just to make sure you've enough diversataaay and inclusivitaay.
I think Venger has the right idea. Make your own cons, and tell the rest to go chew on a grenade.
Lol, shit. I literally just got this book for my birthday. Was thinking of running a westmarches style game-store dungeon.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 14, 2021, 10:10:38 AM
I think Venger has the right idea. Make your own cons, and tell the rest to go chew on a grenade.
Maybe the Inappropriate Characters should sponsor a series of Cons. Use the Greenlist for other publishers they might consider inviting.
Quote from: Ruprecht on November 14, 2021, 12:13:34 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 14, 2021, 10:10:38 AM
I think Venger has the right idea. Make your own cons, and tell the rest to go chew on a grenade.
Maybe the Inappropriate Characters should sponsor a series of Cons. Use the Greenlist for other publishers they might consider inviting.
Not a bad idea! They could certainly give one a good promotion (as well as the forum here).
Quote from: ZetaRidley on November 14, 2021, 11:57:58 AM
Lol, shit. I literally just got this book for my birthday. Was thinking of running a westmarches style game-store dungeon.
I can separate the art from the artist in this regard; I am going to keep running my 3+ year DCC campaign. I don't need a new rulebook revision and I don't need pre-made adventures or other DCC materials. YMMV.
Quote from: dkabq on November 14, 2021, 12:32:05 PM
Quote from: ZetaRidley on November 14, 2021, 11:57:58 AM
Lol, shit. I literally just got this book for my birthday. Was thinking of running a westmarches style game-store dungeon.
I can separate the art from the artist in this regard; I am going to keep running my 3+ year DCC campaign. I don't need a new rulebook revision and I don't need pre-made adventures or other DCC materials. YMMV.
I do the same thing, its just that it seems like everything is being astroturfed by this insane ideology. It's just asinine, and I'm tired of it. And I say this as a person that enjoys PF2e.
Quote from: ZetaRidley on November 14, 2021, 12:50:57 PM
Quote from: dkabq on November 14, 2021, 12:32:05 PM
Quote from: ZetaRidley on November 14, 2021, 11:57:58 AM
Lol, shit. I literally just got this book for my birthday. Was thinking of running a westmarches style game-store dungeon.
I can separate the art from the artist in this regard; I am going to keep running my 3+ year DCC campaign. I don't need a new rulebook revision and I don't need pre-made adventures or other DCC materials. YMMV.
I do the same thing, its just that it seems like everything is being astroturfed by this insane ideology. It's just asinine, and I'm tired of it. And I say this as a person that enjoys PF2e.
Greetings!
Yeah, exactly. I have heard so many good things about the DCC system, and the DCC books. Pundit here of course has been a long-time fan. The quality and fun there with DCC is undeniable.
I would think, if a person has the main book, other DCC supplements, great. Keep playing them using them, whatever. It isn't some kind of purity test, after all. You don't somehow compromise your moral standing because you own some books or enjoy playing a game.
It is, however, sad and even tragic to see Goodman Games embracing the Woke, SJW insanity. Understanding the fact that Goodman Games has more or less recently seemed to drank the SJW Kool-Aid and is now embracing the Woke insanity, simply served to inform the devoted fan and gamer, and the consumer.
Such knowledge may inform your future decisions and choices of continued patronage.
I think that is very appropriate. To be honest, this Woke insanity is so pervasive, whether or not you are a fan and customer of DCC and Goodman Games or not, I think we have all been confronted with this kind of knowledge throughout the industry and the gaming hobby. It happens and has happened to how many companies and publishers? I think everyone of good conscious and whom are thoughtful should be carefully considering all of this.
I now I have. I have been a long-time customer of WOTC. I guess I would be considered a "whale". ;D I have just about every book they have published for 5E D&D. I am also a customer of Goodman Games--I own the giant B2: Keep on the Borderlands book.
All of this is so frustrating. Keep what you have, buy what you absolutely need, but consider your future patronage and consumer choices. I know I have. ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: 3catcircus on November 14, 2021, 09:42:20 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on November 14, 2021, 09:36:44 AM
Quote from: Hakdov on November 13, 2021, 07:11:54 PM
Quote from: dkabq on November 13, 2021, 06:07:11 PM
I went there when it was on Mills and Colonial, before they moved to by the Navel Training Center. It's where I purchased pretty much all of my RPG stuff back in the long, long, ago.
I remember getting my copy of Game Design Vol. 1: Theory and Practice by SJG there way back when I was a teenager. I also used to go to the location by the navy base every time my unit went there for training which was pretty often. Ahh... the memories of a time when it was fun to go to the game store instead of now when it is all bland and disappointing. I can't even remember the last time I actually bought something at one.
I remember going there after NTC boot camp and through A school and NNPS. Gaming helped me stay sane during that time.
This. I was always somewhere between Suggested 15 and Suggested 20 study hours at NNPS, which still left plenty of time to game. To a guy without a car, Enterprise 1701 was a close enough walk. One I got my car, though, I spent much more time far far away from the barracks, so my gaming went down.
I was at Mandatory 35 and 40 study hours. I still had enough time to go to concerts at Visage on OBT, play 2000 point All Factions Star Fleet Battles games, and some Classic Traveller/d6 Star Wars/Mekton II/Cyberpunk on occassion.
Quote from: Ruprecht on November 14, 2021, 12:13:34 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 14, 2021, 10:10:38 AM
I think Venger has the right idea. Make your own cons, and tell the rest to go chew on a grenade.
Maybe the Inappropriate Characters should sponsor a series of Cons. Use the Greenlist for other publishers they might consider inviting.
The proper thing to do is to invite all the companies--but let them know that the con's code of conduct will be simplified to "don't be an asshole" and the safety stuff other cons insist on will not be used/enforced. Rather than excluding them, this gives them the ability to self-exclude if they won't/can't handle that
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 14, 2021, 06:06:08 PM
Quote from: Ruprecht on November 14, 2021, 12:13:34 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 14, 2021, 10:10:38 AM
I think Venger has the right idea. Make your own cons, and tell the rest to go chew on a grenade.
Maybe the Inappropriate Characters should sponsor a series of Cons. Use the Greenlist for other publishers they might consider inviting.
The proper thing to do is to invite all the companies--but let them know that the con's code of conduct will be simplified to "don't be an asshole" and the safety stuff other cons insist on will not be used/enforced. Rather than excluding them, this gives them the ability to self-exclude if they won't/can't handle that
Surprizingly I do agree.
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 14, 2021, 06:06:08 PM
Quote from: Ruprecht on November 14, 2021, 12:13:34 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 14, 2021, 10:10:38 AM
I think Venger has the right idea. Make your own cons, and tell the rest to go chew on a grenade.
Maybe the Inappropriate Characters should sponsor a series of Cons. Use the Greenlist for other publishers they might consider inviting.
The proper thing to do is to invite all the companies--but let them know that the con's code of conduct will be simplified to "don't be an asshole" and the safety stuff other cons insist on will not be used/enforced. Rather than excluding them, this gives them the ability to self-exclude if they won't/can't handle that
Well, that sounds like a bit of common sense to me.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 14, 2021, 06:33:34 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 14, 2021, 06:06:08 PM
Quote from: Ruprecht on November 14, 2021, 12:13:34 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 14, 2021, 10:10:38 AM
I think Venger has the right idea. Make your own cons, and tell the rest to go chew on a grenade.
Maybe the Inappropriate Characters should sponsor a series of Cons. Use the Greenlist for other publishers they might consider inviting.
The proper thing to do is to invite all the companies--but let them know that the con's code of conduct will be simplified to "don't be an asshole" and the safety stuff other cons insist on will not be used/enforced. Rather than excluding them, this gives them the ability to self-exclude if they won't/can't handle that
Surprizingly I do agree.
Greetings!
HOLY BANANA! ;D
I have to agree, as well. That would make a good policy approach.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 13, 2021, 09:34:08 PM
Quote from: DocJones on November 13, 2021, 05:35:21 PM
An even more recent example:
"It rubs the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again." - Jame "Buffalo Bill" Gumb (1991)
An excelent example of the dehumanizing language used by sick psychos.
Yes, and that's why you should only use human pronouns...like he or she.
Shh, shh, no more discord, we are almost at satori. 8)
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 14, 2021, 06:06:08 PM
Quote from: Ruprecht on November 14, 2021, 12:13:34 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 14, 2021, 10:10:38 AM
I think Venger has the right idea. Make your own cons, and tell the rest to go chew on a grenade.
Maybe the Inappropriate Characters should sponsor a series of Cons. Use the Greenlist for other publishers they might consider inviting.
The proper thing to do is to invite all the companies--but let them know that the con's code of conduct will be simplified to "don't be an asshole" and the safety stuff other cons insist on will not be used/enforced. Rather than excluding them, this gives them the ability to self-exclude if they won't/can't handle that
Let this topic fade in agreement on this... ;D ... so pretty!
Quote from: Fantacide on November 11, 2021, 11:31:39 AM
Also this
Quote from: Fantacide on November 11, 2021, 11:27:19 AM
Honestly I stepped away from goodman after reading their con guidelines last year. I think they make their intentions pretty clear. They should have been moved to the red list from the beginning.
Link to Dungeon Con guidelines
https://goodman-games.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/DCO-Policies.pdf
Dungeon Con Online 2021 Code of Conduct - Goodman Games
Edit* whoops wrong link!
Yeah these were some major red flags among other things. The news that Goodman will be injecting 'gender neutral' pronouns into their upcoming books didn't really surprise me. It was a matter of time.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 13, 2021, 12:33:20 PM
Quote from: Fantacide on November 13, 2021, 12:28:35 PM
but THEY have many according to that document. There are plenty of other games to sink my time and energy into.
Oh, fuck those guys... I just mean when you're at a table you should be a decent person.
Same as if I go over to someone's house for a drink. I'm going to be polite. That does'nt mean I won't speak my mind, however. ;D
Unfortunately, there are a lot of people incapable of differentiating between the two.
To add on, at one of my previous tables I would always argue with the GM but it was always in good fun. OTOH I've had tables where players exhibited strange or awkward behaviors even if they checked all politically correct boxes, and the others had to accommodate them. Then, I've also run games where there was outright hostility shown to me as the GM or to other players, even without breaking any of the political correctness rules.
That's why I rarely bring in socially awkward people, and why I don't do public games anymore. You cannot anticipate what shenanigans someone will bring to the table, especially if that person is a stranger. My rule of thumb is "Everyone is here to have fun, but don't have fun at someone else's expense", but I also recognize that "someone else's expense" will always differ from person to person.
To deviate even further, Zizek's thoughts on political correctness resonate with the type of people I have at my table:
https://goodman-games.com/blog/2021/11/15/more-details-on-the-dcc-rpg-9th-printing/
tl:dr =In addition, we've made a distinctive change to the interior of the book: the next printing of the Dungeon Crawl Classics softcover will feature updated text that has been adjusted to gender-neutral pronouns.
Quote from: mudbanks on November 15, 2021, 09:44:18 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 13, 2021, 12:33:20 PM
Quote from: Fantacide on November 13, 2021, 12:28:35 PM
but THEY have many according to that document. There are plenty of other games to sink my time and energy into.
Oh, fuck those guys... I just mean when you're at a table you should be a decent person.
Same as if I go over to someone's house for a drink. I'm going to be polite. That does'nt mean I won't speak my mind, however. ;D
Unfortunately, there are a lot of people incapable of differentiating between the two.
To add on, at one of my previous tables I would always argue with the GM but it was always in good fun. OTOH I've also had tables where players were insisted on hogging the spotlight. Then, I've also run games where there was no hostility, but one or two players were so awkward that the others had to accommodate their strange behaviors.
That's why I rarely bring in socially awkward people, and why I don't do public games anymore. You cannot anticipate what shenanigans someone will bring to the table, especially if that person is a stranger. My rule of thumb is "Everyone is here to have fun, but don't have fun at someone else's expense", but I also recognize that "someone else's expense" will always differ from person to person.
Me and all of my players are socially awkward people. I like to think of myself as the mayor of the Land of Misfit Toys. :)
Quote from: dkabq on November 15, 2021, 09:50:46 PM
Me and all of my players are socially awkward people. I like to think of myself as the mayor of the Land of Misfit Toys. :)
Yeah I know what you mean. I absolutely didn't mean any offence by that btw, I am far from an extrovert, but I just felt 'socially awkward' would be the best descriptor because I wouldn't know how else to bring up the type of people with really strange behaviors. We're talking about people who drift off halfway through the game, walk away from their seats while the DM is talking, have no intention of playing but just want to be part of the group, yell at others when things don't go their way, and the list goes on. I just think that if you want to be part of a group, playing a group-based game, you need to be at least minimally mindful of others at the table. If you have to deal with people that you don't like playing with, then the purpose of the game is moot because you won't have fun, which is why I believe why 'gatekeeping' is necessary to a degree. People in sports form teams with those that they like or click with, so why should we expect any different from RPG groups?
Quote from: mudbanks on November 15, 2021, 10:00:40 PM
Quote from: dkabq on November 15, 2021, 09:50:46 PM
Me and all of my players are socially awkward people. I like to think of myself as the mayor of the Land of Misfit Toys. :)
Yeah I know what you mean. I absolutely didn't mean any offence by that btw, I am far from an extrovert, but I just felt 'socially awkward' would be the best descriptor because I wouldn't know how else to bring up the type of people with really strange behaviors. We're talking about people who drift off halfway through the game, walk away from their seats while the DM is talking, have no intention of playing but just want to be part of the group, yell at others when things don't go their way, and the list goes on. I just think that if you want to be part of a group, playing a group-based game, you need to be at least minimally mindful of others at the table. If you have to deal with people that you don't like playing with, then the purpose of the game is moot because you won't have fun, which is why I believe why 'gatekeeping' is necessary to a degree. People in sports form teams with those that they like or click with, so why should we expect any different from RPG groups?
No offense taken. ;D
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 14, 2021, 10:10:38 AM
I wonder how far these organizer dweebs will go in the future?
I mean, if the twitter bed wetters don't like say, 'all orcs are eeeevil' as one example. Does that mean that the organizer's could stop you having filthy, stupid and savage orcs? Or will you have to start sending in your adventures - so they can be scrutinized by some sensitivity reader gimp. Just to make sure you've enough diversataaay and inclusivitaay.
I think Venger has the right idea. Make your own cons, and tell the rest to go chew on a grenade.
1: There is no limit to how far they can or will go.
2: Pretty sure some other cons have already started this one. If not. They will soon. Some will do it covertly. But most will advertise it because they are compelled to virtue signal.
3: Least until they co-opt or shut down those. That was the tactic the 90s version used against non-gaming cons.
Quote from: dkabq on November 14, 2021, 12:32:05 PM
Quote from: ZetaRidley on November 14, 2021, 11:57:58 AM
Lol, shit. I literally just got this book for my birthday. Was thinking of running a westmarches style game-store dungeon.
I can separate the art from the artist in this regard; I am going to keep running my 3+ year DCC campaign. I don't need a new rulebook revision and I don't need pre-made adventures or other DCC materials. YMMV.
Yeah I bought a whole ton of DCC books during the first and second edition print runs. I still want to run it someday given the rules are solid, so in a way I'm glad I don't have to buy more.
Quote from: SHARK on November 14, 2021, 07:51:56 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 14, 2021, 06:33:34 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 14, 2021, 06:06:08 PM
Quote from: Ruprecht on November 14, 2021, 12:13:34 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 14, 2021, 10:10:38 AM
I think Venger has the right idea. Make your own cons, and tell the rest to go chew on a grenade.
Maybe the Inappropriate Characters should sponsor a series of Cons. Use the Greenlist for other publishers they might consider inviting.
The proper thing to do is to invite all the companies--but let them know that the con's code of conduct will be simplified to "don't be an asshole" and the safety stuff other cons insist on will not be used/enforced. Rather than excluding them, this gives them the ability to self-exclude if they won't/can't handle that
Surprizingly I do agree.
Greetings!
HOLY BANANA! ;D
I have to agree, as well. That would make a good policy approach.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Its never worked before and wont work now. It especially wont work now.
If they can not just outright co-opt the con from the inside out then they will go to the con to be offended. Then when either kicked out or not kicked out, will raise hell about how horrible these horrible people are. Assuming they do not just try to close down the con before it even starts. That is the current tactic used outside gaming. Call up the venue the cons at and threaten them or spread lies.
And failing all that. They will just pose as one of you. Then do something wretched and claim they are one of you when the cops are called. Or wait for, or stage, something bad to happen. Then pretend to be one of you and make really vile commentary to the media.
And failing all that. Murder.
Seen all of the above in the indie comic con and convention art circuits back in the 90s iteration and now our current 2010 wave of this disease.
Quote from: Omega on November 15, 2021, 10:21:15 PM
Quote from: SHARK on November 14, 2021, 07:51:56 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 14, 2021, 06:33:34 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 14, 2021, 06:06:08 PM
Quote from: Ruprecht on November 14, 2021, 12:13:34 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 14, 2021, 10:10:38 AM
I think Venger has the right idea. Make your own cons, and tell the rest to go chew on a grenade.
Maybe the Inappropriate Characters should sponsor a series of Cons. Use the Greenlist for other publishers they might consider inviting.
The proper thing to do is to invite all the companies--but let them know that the con's code of conduct will be simplified to "don't be an asshole" and the safety stuff other cons insist on will not be used/enforced. Rather than excluding them, this gives them the ability to self-exclude if they won't/can't handle that
Surprizingly I do agree.
Greetings!
HOLY BANANA! ;D
I have to agree, as well. That would make a good policy approach.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Its never worked before and wont work now. It especially wont work now.
If they can not just outright co-opt the con from the inside out then they will go to the con to be offended. Then when either kicked out or not kicked out, will raise hell about how horrible these horrible people are. Assuming they do not just try to close down the con before it even starts. That is the current tactic used outside gaming. Call up the venue the cons at and threaten them or spread lies.
And failing all that. They will just pose as one of you. Then do something wretched and claim they are one of you when the cops are called. Or wait for, or stage, something bad to happen. Then pretend to be one of you and make really vile commentary to the media.
And failing all that. Murder.
Seen all of the above in the indie comic con and convention art circuits back in the 90s iteration and now our current 2010 wave of this disease.
Any links to the details of the murders you've seen related to the indie comic con and convention art circuits?
It's well over 100 Million people dead at the hands of Socialists. I'm unaware of the ones that happened at specifically an indie Comic-con or convention Art Circuits but I do know this. They are not done. That 100 Million isn't the Total killed but the total killed in just three or four places so far.
Before it's over with I'm sure the score will be a hundred thousand times that and a great many will be in places like a Comic-Con or Convention Art Circuit. Because Socialism as a tool to infect people and control people works wonderfully for a while. Unless you personally have experienced its horrors then the Seductive nature of it makes it easy for others to overcome the reality with: That was the bad kind of Socialism, we will do it the right way. Those people had a lot more issues going on that Socialism didn't cause but that it got the blame for.
Our Socialism will be Democratic Socialism!
So I expect that 1,000 years from now people will be having this same fight over and over.
Keep an eye on that Death count because I think you have not seen anything yet.
Quote from: Ka'arl Sorcerer of Cha'alt on November 16, 2021, 07:49:00 AM
It's well over 100 Million people dead at the hands of Socialists. I'm unaware of the ones that happened at specifically an indie Comic-con or convention Art Circuits but I do know this. They are not done. That 100 Million isn't the Total killed but the total killed in just three or four places so far.
Before it's over with I'm sure the score will be a hundred thousand times that and a great many will be in places like a Comic-Con or Convention Art Circuit. Because Socialism as a tool to infect people and control people works wonderfully for a while. Unless you personally have experienced its horrors then the Seductive nature of it makes it easy for others to overcome the reality with: That was the bad kind of Socialism, we will do it the right way. Those people had a lot more issues going on that Socialism didn't cause but that it got the blame for.
Our Socialism will be Democratic Socialism!
So I expect that 1,000 years from now people will be having this same fight over and over.
Keep an eye on that Death count because I think you have not seen anything yet.
Calm down... LOL
Huh? Did I text again in all caps or something?
Sometimes my text seems to cause other people to think I'm all excited. I'm not. I have not even had my coffee yet.
Quote from: Ka'arl Sorcerer of Cha'alt on November 16, 2021, 08:06:18 AM
Huh? Did I text again in all caps or something?
Sometimes my text seems to cause other people to think I'm all excited. I'm not. I have not even had my coffee yet.
Nor, it appears, your meds.
I asked about the deaths Omega has seen in a specific area that relates to gaming. I'm not discussing the general issues of socialism throughout history.
Oh Right! Because any discussion of the larger issue without the extremely narrow confines of your question would totally destroy your views and you want to keep everything nice and separate so you can pretend they are unrelated.
How many people have been killed by Socialists in red t-shirts with the Critical role symbol while humming "it's your turn to Roll"? None? See Socialists are just fine! Got it!
You also want to immediately disparage any disagreement so you cast any opposition as in obvious need of mental help. How very telling.
Quote from: Ka'arl Sorcerer of Cha'alt on November 16, 2021, 09:43:39 AM
Oh Right! Because any discussion of the larger issue without the extremely narrow confines of your question would totally destroy your views and you want to keep everything nice and separate so you can pretend they are unrelated.
How many people have been killed by Socialists in red t-shirts with the Critical role symbol while humming "it's your turn to Roll"? None? See Socialists are just fine! Got it!
You also want to immediately disparage any disagreement so you cast any opposition as in obvious need of mental help. How very telling.
Well, if you want to go off topic, we can always start going on about how many wars and genocides have been started by the religious.
Guys stick to the topic.
Quote from: Snowman0147 on November 16, 2021, 10:04:28 AM
Guys stick to the topic.
That's what we are actually trying to do!
There's also an RPG, called Dungeon Crawl Classics; which has gotten "Woke".
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 16, 2021, 09:50:13 AM
Well, if you want to go off topic, we can always start going on about how many wars and genocides have been started by the religious.
Only if we can include all the pagans and other non Christian belief systems people have followed throughout time that we know of.
But Goodman Games has yet to speak about their belief system, or lack thereof in any way, so I'm of a mind to let sleeping dogs lie for now.
Quote from: Omega on November 15, 2021, 10:21:15 PMIts never worked before and wont work now. It especially wont work now.
If they can not just outright co-opt the con from the inside out then they will go to the con to be offended. Then when either kicked out or not kicked out, will raise hell about how horrible these horrible people are. Assuming they do not just try to close down the con before it even starts. That is the current tactic used outside gaming. Call up the venue the cons at and threaten them or spread lies.
And failing all that. They will just pose as one of you. Then do something wretched and claim they are one of you when the cops are called. Or wait for, or stage, something bad to happen. Then pretend to be one of you and make really vile commentary to the media.
And failing all that. Murder.
Seen all of the above in the indie comic con and convention art circuits back in the 90s iteration and now our current 2010 wave of this disease.
The North Texas RPG Con, run by the recently departed Doug Rhea, managed to avoid the bullet. As I understand it, Doug just firmly and politely rejected any attempts at woke infiltration. When the usual suspects went on about safety protocols, he just responded that this was Texas, and everyone would be safe because the con organisers, and most of the people in attendance would be armed to the teeth. ;D That did not shut up the wokies, but it kept them away from the place, and good riddance! A few years later, NTRPG is still doing well, there are no incidents reported, and it remains focused on good games.
You can read the RPGNet regulars seethe about in this 2017 thread. (https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/tx-gaming-con-sexual-assault-rapists-terrorists-all-welcome-to-come-according-organizer.818696/)
Quote from: Melan on November 17, 2021, 04:56:27 AM
Quote from: Omega on November 15, 2021, 10:21:15 PMIts never worked before and wont work now. It especially wont work now.
If they can not just outright co-opt the con from the inside out then they will go to the con to be offended. Then when either kicked out or not kicked out, will raise hell about how horrible these horrible people are. Assuming they do not just try to close down the con before it even starts. That is the current tactic used outside gaming. Call up the venue the cons at and threaten them or spread lies.
And failing all that. They will just pose as one of you. Then do something wretched and claim they are one of you when the cops are called. Or wait for, or stage, something bad to happen. Then pretend to be one of you and make really vile commentary to the media.
And failing all that. Murder.
Seen all of the above in the indie comic con and convention art circuits back in the 90s iteration and now our current 2010 wave of this disease.
The North Texas RPG Con, run by the recently departed Doug Rhea, managed to avoid the bullet. As I understand it, Doug just firmly and politely rejected any attempts at woke infiltration. When the usual suspects went on about safety protocols, he just responded that this was Texas, and everyone would be safe because the con organisers, and most of the people in attendance would be armed to the teeth. ;D That did not shut up the wokies, but it kept them away from the place, and good riddance! A few years later, NTRPG is still doing well, there are no incidents reported, and it remains focused on good games.
You can read the RPGNet regulars seethe about in this 2017 thread. (https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/tx-gaming-con-sexual-assault-rapists-terrorists-all-welcome-to-come-according-organizer.818696/)
Greetings!
Geesus, my friend, all of those people over at TBP are all nuts. Toxic masculinity, women, POC, harassment policy, sexual assault victims, harassers, whaa, whaa, whaa. These people are all pathetic, weak, self-righteous troglodytes.
If anyone is so consumed with fear about sexual assault or God-knows what else--these people have no business going to a convention. Or even being in public, anywhere. They need therapy, and to be locked inside a rubber room.
The North Texas RPG con sounds like a fantastic convention to go to! Definitely a place where all the whining, sniveling, SJW's would feel so unsafe and unwelcome! ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
QuoteIt's well over 100 Million people dead at the hands of Socialists. I'm unaware of the ones that happened at specifically an indie Comic-con or convention Art Circuits but I do know this. They are not done. That 100 Million isn't the Total killed but the total killed in just three or four places so far.
And those were people murdered by communist dictatorship (whether we call them real communism or not). Point it - reality of such dictatorship is quite, quite different from realities of WOKE in US. In fact WOKE usually disowns all those Soviet or Chinese shenanigans, and frequently counts dictators of East as right-wingers (sic!). And on the other hand fans of Stalin, Mao and Hoxha, commonly called tankies, usually hate WOKE considering them to be pawns of corporate capitalism.
So as someone from Eastern Europe where like in most of countries communists took power by military effort of armed man unafraid to fight and die, not be petty screaming of non-binary depressed wokesters, I do not see much relevance here really.
Someone claimed people were murdered for left to take over some gaming conventions, so the question is who and were. All the victims of Stalin, Mao and Kim are irrelevent for this discussion, as those gentlemen where rather not interested in such petty endeavours, playing their Empire Games.
QuoteOh Right! Because any discussion of the larger issue without the extremely narrow confines of your question would totally destroy your views and you want to keep everything nice and separate so you can pretend they are unrelated.
For our next trip - we gonna say that OSR players in Latinoamerican countries are guilty of crimes against idigenous populations, because RPGPundit supports Uruguay.
Now then it's gonna turn it was governments not players, and 100 years ago, but whatever we cannot keep things separate.
We cannot keep separate Antifa shenanigans from Stalin's regime, even if it's quite possible Stalin seeing them would log on RPGSite and offer Pundit temporary truce in eradicating those loons, like one whiskered asshole to the other.
I don't know what so hard in keeping on topic to you - someone said quite clearly and specificaly about murder as a way to eliminate political enemies in gaming convention business, not in terms of world-wide crimes of socialism. So we want to specific about this, not about Lenin.
QuoteThe North Texas RPG Con, run by the recently departed Doug Rhea, managed to avoid the bullet. As I understand it, Doug just firmly and politely rejected any attempts at woke infiltration. When the usual suspects went on about safety protocols, he just responded that this was Texas, and everyone would be safe because the con organisers, and most of the people in attendance would be armed to the teeth. ;D That did not shut up the wokies, but it kept them away from the place, and good riddance! A few years later, NTRPG is still doing well, there are no incidents reported, and it remains focused on good games.
Based :3 That's how such things should be solved.
Quote from: Melan on November 17, 2021, 04:56:27 AM
Quote from: Omega on November 15, 2021, 10:21:15 PMIts never worked before and wont work now. It especially wont work now.
If they can not just outright co-opt the con from the inside out then they will go to the con to be offended. Then when either kicked out or not kicked out, will raise hell about how horrible these horrible people are. Assuming they do not just try to close down the con before it even starts. That is the current tactic used outside gaming. Call up the venue the cons at and threaten them or spread lies.
And failing all that. They will just pose as one of you. Then do something wretched and claim they are one of you when the cops are called. Or wait for, or stage, something bad to happen. Then pretend to be one of you and make really vile commentary to the media.
And failing all that. Murder.
Seen all of the above in the indie comic con and convention art circuits back in the 90s iteration and now our current 2010 wave of this disease.
The North Texas RPG Con, run by the recently departed Doug Rhea, managed to avoid the bullet. As I understand it, Doug just firmly and politely rejected any attempts at woke infiltration. When the usual suspects went on about safety protocols, he just responded that this was Texas, and everyone would be safe because the con organisers, and most of the people in attendance would be armed to the teeth. ;D That did not shut up the wokies, but it kept them away from the place, and good riddance! A few years later, NTRPG is still doing well, there are no incidents reported, and it remains focused on good games.
You can read the RPGNet regulars seethe about in this 2017 thread. (https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/tx-gaming-con-sexual-assault-rapists-terrorists-all-welcome-to-come-according-organizer.818696/)
My hometown Con. Finally get to attend for the first time in 2022. Curious if you plan on attending next year Melan. Would be amazing to get a seat at a game of yours if that ever happens.
With the way international travel is going, it is highly unlikely. But it is on my list, God willing.
Quote from: Melan on November 17, 2021, 05:50:38 PM
With the way international travel is going, it is highly unlikely. But it is on my list, God willing.
With any luck, Texas will be its own country by the time the next Con rolls around.
I will be at NTRPG for sure. Would be great to meet some new folks!
Quote from: Melan on November 17, 2021, 04:56:27 AM
You can read the RPGNet regulars seethe about in this 2017 thread. (https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/tx-gaming-con-sexual-assault-rapists-terrorists-all-welcome-to-come-according-organizer.818696/)
I remember that thread! That's when I stopped lurking over there. I had stopped posting long before that, but that thread hit peak stupid. Always wondered how the whole thing turned out... glad the con is still going strong.
Funny to revisit the thread and see all the SJW posters who've since been banned. I wonder why. Were they not Woke enough, or did they come to their senses and dare point out the insanity? Did they plead "But, but, I'm an ALLY!" on their way to the guillotine? Or raise a fist in defiance and join us here?
The purity spiral never stops spinning, so they were just the next targets after the site had run out of (however mild) conservatives and middle-road lefties. Looking at recent long-term/permanent bans on Infractions that hit long-term users (not just fresh accounts who might be clueless tourists or drive-by trolls), we get:
- Ikoma (2008):Being doubtful about reparations (https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/ikoma-receives-a-%F0%9F%9A%AB-thirty-day-ban.887794/)
- Silvercat Moonpaw (2008): "European Christian colonialist propaganda", i.e. making an accurate claim about most world religions (https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/silvercat-moonpaw-receives-a-%F0%9F%9A%AB-thirty-day-ban-group-attacks-involving-religion.888271/)
- Heavy Arms (2012): "multiple warnings and threadbans about posting aggressively and heating up the threads by attacking people" (https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/heavy-arms-receives-a-%F0%9F%9A%AB-thirty-day-ban-threadban-hostile-posting.888535/)
- Damian May (2003): sockpuppet said naughty things (https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/damian-may-receives-a-%F0%9F%92%80-permanent-ban.888843/) (look at that regdate!)
- Maxen M (2012): supporting reparations, but not "land back" schemes (https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/maxen-m-receives-a-%F0%9F%9A%AB-sixty-day-ban.889146/)
- Marras (2014): called singular they "a weird new aberration" (https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/marras-receives-a-%F0%9F%92%80-permanent-ban.889287/)
- Broken (2002): "treating slavery as something that is just another type of loot" (https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/broken-receives-a-%F0%9F%92%80-permanent-ban.889470/) (PERMA)
- Paradim (2004): "It's not illegal, on its own as far as I know, to cross State lines with a firearm. That's something people do very regularly." (https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/paradim-receives-a-%F0%9F%9A%AB-thirty-day-ban-racism.889645/)(30 days for racism)
These guys all believed in the Party, but didn't believe in it just enough. I bet most of them didn't even see it coming, and when it did, were surprised and mortified that something like this could happen to "the good guys".
Quote from: Fantacide on November 17, 2021, 09:21:09 PM
I will be at NTRPG for sure. Would be great to meet some new folks!
Same Fantacide. If guys on the forum who plan on attending are interested--let's have a theRPGsite meetup during the con.
This thread is only for discussion about DCC. Do not post about other topics here.
Ironic.
But what are their pronouns?
Glad I haven't wasted any money on Goodman products. I had considered buying some of their Judges Guild reprints, but found what I wanted on Ebay instead.
As others have said, the DCC notion of being based on Appendix N, something that the nouveau gamers HATE, makes this move puzzling. I also agree (having a female Mexican and gay male as long time players in my group who also agree with me) that if you require pronouns to play (like some have intimated on the DCC Rocks! Facebook group) that you should not be at my table in the first place because I don't want you near me, and neither do they. Is this a Goodman Games ploy to sell more books (like their infinite amount of cover variations (which apparently people are tired of)? If so are they saying that those of us who used those books are just unwashed bigots? Either way, I will make some money selling the road crew swag I earned on eBay.
I do wonder if others, like Jim Wampler who is behind Mutant Crawl Classics and Scientific Barbarian among other titles, will need to also comply, or do they have free choice?
Quote from: bat on November 21, 2021, 03:17:59 PM
I do wonder if others, like Jim Wampler who is behind Mutant Crawl Classics and Scientific Barbarian among other titles, will need to also comply, or do they have free choice?
Wampler is a self-avowed feminist, I wouldn't be surprised if he was pushing this himself or at least compliant.
We were just talking about this on Inappropriate Characters!
Join me, Venger Satanis & Jobe as we talk about Goodman games, some more praiseworthy things in the hobby, and maybe about a certain recent court case...
#dnd #ttrpg #osr #DCC
Sad to hear Goodman and DCC are choking on woke dick.
Looking forward now to their company's demise.
May the spectre of "go woke, go broke" take another victim.
But I am more importantly looking forward to the success of VengerCon, and its growth and success in the future. https://tabletop.events/conventions/venger-con-2022 (https://tabletop.events/conventions/venger-con-2022)
As I've said before, the path forward is segregation in the hobby. Everybody who wants to suck woke cock should enjoy their own space, far away from the rest of us.
Not just in regards to conventions or forums, but parallel hobby industry as well.
If you are not leftist commie trash, don't buy their products. Don't fund them. Don't reward them. There are plenty of game designers who (a) are smart enough to keep politics out of their games or (b) actually don't hate you.
Quote from: Spinachcat on November 22, 2021, 05:49:40 PM
As I've said before, the path forward is segregation in the hobby. Everybody who wants to suck woke cock should enjoy their own space, far away from the rest of us.
Not just in regards to conventions or forums, but parallel hobby industry as well.
If you are not leftist commie trash, don't buy their products. Don't fund them. Don't reward them. There are plenty of game designers who (a) are smart enough to keep politics out of their games or (b) actually don't hate you.
IMAO, you should have your consumer dollars do your talking, just like you do for any other product or service. This applies in the gaming hobby as well as for web search, cell phones, computer software/OS's, banks, and so on.
I think passively segregating the hobby (i.e., don't go to cons that advocate for the "wrong" side of the woke bandwagon [goes both ways- if you are woke, and the con doesn't provide X cards, stay away; if you detest X cards, go to a con that doesn't impose them]) is the inevitable outcome.
I go to a con to game, not be castigated because of my skin color, genitalia, or politics. I'm perfectly willing to not talk politics at the table (does "Lets go Brandon" or "Orange Man Bad" contribute anything constructive to a hex crawl? How about "Taxation is theft!"?). I fear that actively segregating is going to turn out badly for the hobby however as the politically uninformed will be misinformed that one side's cons are cesspools of ism's and stay away from those (and after going to a woke con, the right of center folks will outright leave the hobby).
Quote from: Howard on November 22, 2021, 06:09:05 PMIMAO, you should have your consumer dollars do your talking,
Absolutely. Everyone has the right to vote with our feet and our dollars.
Quote from: Howard on November 22, 2021, 06:09:05 PMI fear that actively segregating is going to turn out badly for the hobby however as the politically uninformed will be misinformed that one side's cons are cesspools of ism's and stay away from those (and after going to a woke con, the right of center folks will outright leave the hobby).
The hobby is already turning out badly.
Yes, any convention that declares itself non-woke will be declared NaughtyNaziCon on Twatter and banned from any of the goodthink spaces. So what? That's actually good advertising toward anyone sick of the woke bullshit.
As for the confused mushy middle, I'm very done worrying about the sheep wandering into the slaughterhouse when they all have supercomputers in their pockets that can access the same facts and reality we have. Yuri Bezmenov's interviews are still on YouTube, not hidden somewhere on the dark web.
Also, its great for clueless people to run into the woke buzzsaw at their cons! Nothing sears the mind like direct contact and personal experience. It will only make them more grateful and vocal when they discover DeplorableCon.
Quote from: Spinachcat on November 22, 2021, 06:24:33 PM
Yes, any convention that declares itself non-woke will be declared NaughtyNaziCon on Twatter and banned from any of the goodthink spaces. So what? That's actually good advertising toward anyone sick of the woke bullshit.
As for the confused mushy middle, I'm very done worrying about the sheep wandering into the slaughterhouse when they all have supercomputers in their pockets that can access the same facts and reality we have. Yuri Bezmenov's interviews are still on YouTube, not hidden somewhere on the dark web.
Also, its great for clueless people to run into the woke buzzsaw at their cons! Nothing sears the mind like direct contact and personal experience. It will only make them more grateful and vocal when they discover DeplorableCon.
The younger ones (the 30 and under types), sure. The ones my age (just north of 50) are just getting to see Woke Inc and wondering what the heck is going on. One person nominally left was ranting about her new job and its snowflake training- basically all the garbage that the right has been on about for years. She is active on FB, birdsong, and I assume instagram and yet hadn't encountered this stuff until now. Most of the rest of the folks there were in agreement (some didn't speak up) even though they too are D's. Unlike her, I dumped FB years ago, and never went for the concept of condensing my writings to 140 characters or less or posting pictures. She has a pocket surveillance device tethered to her at all times. My dumbphone sits turned off on my counter or in the console of my car for weeks at a time. Same ethnic group. By all measures other than my being politically to her right (political compass says barely right of center mind you), I should be the one who is unaware.
You have to be smacked hard and wide before you see the problem (unclear if she does yet, but at least the circuit to the lightbulb has been shown to work). Maybe the far left rantings of her college aged kid will do it.
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 15, 2021, 11:56:21 PM
Any links to the details of the murders you've seen related to the indie comic con and convention art circuits?
So far as I know. No actual murders have occurred. But theres been one near shooting, and two poisoning attempts in the last 5-10 years I've heard of from friends that attend cons and one that keeps track of the larger moral outrage/SJW attacks. I do not track this stuff as it is depressing to see these creeps rise in power again. I had my fill of this back in the 90s iteration. And back then they would gloat over any "disapproved" artists death.
Quote from: Spinachcat on November 22, 2021, 05:49:40 PM
As I've said before, the path forward is segregation in the hobby. Everybody who wants to suck woke cock should enjoy their own space, far away from the rest of us.
Yes... Yes... Yes... I've been saying that for years too. I don't give a cup of cold piss what these woke fools do as long as it's away from me.
That said, to actually create a real schism, would take a concerted effort. Which most grognards don't seem willing to do, imo.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 25, 2021, 06:26:03 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat on November 22, 2021, 05:49:40 PM
As I've said before, the path forward is segregation in the hobby. Everybody who wants to suck woke cock should enjoy their own space, far away from the rest of us.
Yes... Yes... Yes... I've been saying that for years too. I don't give a cup of cold piss what these woke fools do as long as it's away from me.
That said, to actually create a real schism, would take a concerted effort. Which most grognards don't seem willing to do, imo.
Hows that going to work? They just re-co-opt any new havens and oust you again because they know you will knuckle under their jackboots eventually rather than keep fighting the long war. And all they need are a few useful idiots in the haven to get a foothold and start spreading their mental disease again.
Quote from: Omega on November 25, 2021, 06:38:29 AM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 25, 2021, 06:26:03 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat on November 22, 2021, 05:49:40 PM
As I've said before, the path forward is segregation in the hobby. Everybody who wants to suck woke cock should enjoy their own space, far away from the rest of us.
Yes... Yes... Yes... I've been saying that for years too. I don't give a cup of cold piss what these woke fools do as long as it's away from me.
That said, to actually create a real schism, would take a concerted effort. Which most grognards don't seem willing to do, imo.
Hows that going to work? They just re-co-opt any new havens and oust you again because they know you will knuckle under their jackboots eventually rather than keep fighting the long war. And all they need are a few useful idiots in the haven to get a foothold and start spreading their mental disease again.
Well, I think Venger has the right idea.
Quote from: Omega on November 25, 2021, 06:18:13 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 15, 2021, 11:56:21 PM
Any links to the details of the murders you've seen related to the indie comic con and convention art circuits?
So far as I know. No actual murders have occurred. But theres been one near shooting, and two poisoning attempts in the last 5-10 years I've heard of from friends that attend cons and one that keeps track of the larger moral outrage/SJW attacks. I do not track this stuff as it is depressing to see these creeps rise in power again. I had my fill of this back in the 90s iteration. And back then they would gloat over any "disapproved" artists death.
Do you have any details of the near-shooting & poisonings of gamer-related figures, or is this too just hearsay?
Living in Florida, "near-shootings" are rather common in daily life.
I was near some shootings the other day, had a great time blasting some targets up in the woods!
Near shootings are easy! It's far-away shootings that give me issues. I think I need to go get my vision checked again.
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 25, 2021, 10:27:58 AM
Quote from: Omega on November 25, 2021, 06:18:13 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 15, 2021, 11:56:21 PM
Any links to the details of the murders you've seen related to the indie comic con and convention art circuits?
So far as I know. No actual murders have occurred. But theres been one near shooting, and two poisoning attempts in the last 5-10 years I've heard of from friends that attend cons and one that keeps track of the larger moral outrage/SJW attacks. I do not track this stuff as it is depressing to see these creeps rise in power again. I had my fill of this back in the 90s iteration. And back then they would gloat over any "disapproved" artists death.
Do you have any details of the near-shooting & poisonings of gamer-related figures, or is this too just hearsay?
Living in Florida, "near-shootings" are rather common in daily life.
The near shooting one no. Only that a known moral guardian fanatic pulled a gun on someone at a con. I'd have to go hunting for the list of incidents and I really have no urge to read that ever again.
The poisoning one got some rather ugly news coverage. Luckily no one was severely injured that I am aware of. I'd post a link but the usual suspects here would just gloat over people nearly being killed.
As noted many a time. The artist and indie comic circuit can be appallingly vicious. Especially when these moral guardians get involved. Im just surprised that they have not resorted to violence sooner. But then SJWs are always cowards who prefer to attack from the shadows.
Quote from: Omega on November 26, 2021, 01:00:08 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 25, 2021, 10:27:58 AM
Quote from: Omega on November 25, 2021, 06:18:13 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 15, 2021, 11:56:21 PM
Any links to the details of the murders you've seen related to the indie comic con and convention art circuits?
So far as I know. No actual murders have occurred. But theres been one near shooting, and two poisoning attempts in the last 5-10 years I've heard of from friends that attend cons and one that keeps track of the larger moral outrage/SJW attacks. I do not track this stuff as it is depressing to see these creeps rise in power again. I had my fill of this back in the 90s iteration. And back then they would gloat over any "disapproved" artists death.
Do you have any details of the near-shooting & poisonings of gamer-related figures, or is this too just hearsay?
Living in Florida, "near-shootings" are rather common in daily life.
The near shooting one no. Only that a known moral guardian fanatic pulled a gun on someone at a con. I'd have to go hunting for the list of incidents and I really have no urge to read that ever again.
The poisoning one got some rather ugly news coverage. Luckily no one was severely injured that I am aware of. I'd post a link but the usual suspects here would just gloat over people nearly being killed.
As noted many a time. The artist and indie comic circuit can be appallingly vicious. Especially when these moral guardians get involved. Im just surprised that they have not resorted to violence sooner. But then SJWs are always cowards who prefer to attack from the shadows.
I wanna see some actual links to news stories and whatnot. We had full on moral guardians riding our asses about D&D for years but I don't recall any actual physical attacks.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 26, 2021, 06:37:59 AM
Quote from: Omega on November 26, 2021, 01:00:08 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 25, 2021, 10:27:58 AM
Quote from: Omega on November 25, 2021, 06:18:13 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 15, 2021, 11:56:21 PM
Any links to the details of the murders you've seen related to the indie comic con and convention art circuits?
So far as I know. No actual murders have occurred. But theres been one near shooting, and two poisoning attempts in the last 5-10 years I've heard of from friends that attend cons and one that keeps track of the larger moral outrage/SJW attacks. I do not track this stuff as it is depressing to see these creeps rise in power again. I had my fill of this back in the 90s iteration. And back then they would gloat over any "disapproved" artists death.
Do you have any details of the near-shooting & poisonings of gamer-related figures, or is this too just hearsay?
Living in Florida, "near-shootings" are rather common in daily life.
The near shooting one no. Only that a known moral guardian fanatic pulled a gun on someone at a con. I'd have to go hunting for the list of incidents and I really have no urge to read that ever again.
The poisoning one got some rather ugly news coverage. Luckily no one was severely injured that I am aware of. I'd post a link but the usual suspects here would just gloat over people nearly being killed.
As noted many a time. The artist and indie comic circuit can be appallingly vicious. Especially when these moral guardians get involved. Im just surprised that they have not resorted to violence sooner. But then SJWs are always cowards who prefer to attack from the shadows.
I wanna see some actual links to news stories and whatnot. We had full on moral guardians riding our asses about D&D for years but I don't recall any actual physical attacks.
This is one of those very rare cases where I agree with the pirate.
Maybe at out non-woke cons we can seperate the wheat from the chaff with a sign on a door reading "PICK UP YOUR X-CARDS HERE", and "SAFE SPACE ROOM: NO BIGOTS ALLOWED!", and have that be a one-way door that leads to a garbage-srewn alley?
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on November 26, 2021, 09:15:02 PM
Maybe at out non-woke cons we can seperate the wheat from the chaff with a sign on a door reading "PICK UP YOUR X-CARDS HERE", and "SAFE SPACE ROOM: NO BIGOTS ALLOWED!", and have that be a one-way door that leads to a garbage-srewn alley?
Kind of like a modernized version of 'this way to the Egress', a la P.T. Barnum?
Sure, let's go with that :)
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on November 26, 2021, 09:15:02 PM
Maybe at out non-woke cons we can seperate the wheat from the chaff with a sign on a door reading "PICK UP YOUR X-CARDS HERE", and "SAFE SPACE ROOM: NO BIGOTS ALLOWED!", and have that be a one-way door that leads to a garbage-srewn alley?
No. Take a lesson from theme parks and route them through gift shops. I mean, their money is still money, right?
Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 26, 2021, 06:37:59 AM
Quote from: Omega on November 26, 2021, 01:00:08 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 25, 2021, 10:27:58 AM
Quote from: Omega on November 25, 2021, 06:18:13 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 15, 2021, 11:56:21 PM
Any links to the details of the murders you've seen related to the indie comic con and convention art circuits?
So far as I know. No actual murders have occurred. But theres been one near shooting, and two poisoning attempts in the last 5-10 years I've heard of from friends that attend cons and one that keeps track of the larger moral outrage/SJW attacks. I do not track this stuff as it is depressing to see these creeps rise in power again. I had my fill of this back in the 90s iteration. And back then they would gloat over any "disapproved" artists death.
Do you have any details of the near-shooting & poisonings of gamer-related figures, or is this too just hearsay?
Living in Florida, "near-shootings" are rather common in daily life.
The near shooting one no. Only that a known moral guardian fanatic pulled a gun on someone at a con. I'd have to go hunting for the list of incidents and I really have no urge to read that ever again.
The poisoning one got some rather ugly news coverage. Luckily no one was severely injured that I am aware of. I'd post a link but the usual suspects here would just gloat over people nearly being killed.
As noted many a time. The artist and indie comic circuit can be appallingly vicious. Especially when these moral guardians get involved. Im just surprised that they have not resorted to violence sooner. But then SJWs are always cowards who prefer to attack from the shadows.
I wanna see some actual links to news stories and whatnot. We had full on moral guardians riding our asses about D&D for years but I don't recall any actual physical attacks.
Well, there was that SJW game designer who tried to kill Jeremy Hambly.
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 27, 2021, 01:27:15 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 26, 2021, 06:37:59 AM
Quote from: Omega on November 26, 2021, 01:00:08 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 25, 2021, 10:27:58 AM
Quote from: Omega on November 25, 2021, 06:18:13 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 15, 2021, 11:56:21 PM
Any links to the details of the murders you've seen related to the indie comic con and convention art circuits?
So far as I know. No actual murders have occurred. But theres been one near shooting, and two poisoning attempts in the last 5-10 years I've heard of from friends that attend cons and one that keeps track of the larger moral outrage/SJW attacks. I do not track this stuff as it is depressing to see these creeps rise in power again. I had my fill of this back in the 90s iteration. And back then they would gloat over any "disapproved" artists death.
Do you have any details of the near-shooting & poisonings of gamer-related figures, or is this too just hearsay?
Living in Florida, "near-shootings" are rather common in daily life.
The near shooting one no. Only that a known moral guardian fanatic pulled a gun on someone at a con. I'd have to go hunting for the list of incidents and I really have no urge to read that ever again.
The poisoning one got some rather ugly news coverage. Luckily no one was severely injured that I am aware of. I'd post a link but the usual suspects here would just gloat over people nearly being killed.
As noted many a time. The artist and indie comic circuit can be appallingly vicious. Especially when these moral guardians get involved. Im just surprised that they have not resorted to violence sooner. But then SJWs are always cowards who prefer to attack from the shadows.
I wanna see some actual links to news stories and whatnot. We had full on moral guardians riding our asses about D&D for years but I don't recall any actual physical attacks.
Well, there was that SJW game designer who tried to kill Jeremy Hambly.
"Tried to kill?" He punched him a few times. Now, I'm not endorsing that -at all - but holy cow, try not to be such a hysterical old woman about it. I get that hyperbole is your whole shtick, but this is pure cringe.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on November 27, 2021, 02:02:23 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 27, 2021, 01:27:15 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 26, 2021, 06:37:59 AM
Quote from: Omega on November 26, 2021, 01:00:08 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 25, 2021, 10:27:58 AM
Quote from: Omega on November 25, 2021, 06:18:13 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 15, 2021, 11:56:21 PM
Any links to the details of the murders you've seen related to the indie comic con and convention art circuits?
So far as I know. No actual murders have occurred. But theres been one near shooting, and two poisoning attempts in the last 5-10 years I've heard of from friends that attend cons and one that keeps track of the larger moral outrage/SJW attacks. I do not track this stuff as it is depressing to see these creeps rise in power again. I had my fill of this back in the 90s iteration. And back then they would gloat over any "disapproved" artists death.
Do you have any details of the near-shooting & poisonings of gamer-related figures, or is this too just hearsay?
Living in Florida, "near-shootings" are rather common in daily life.
The near shooting one no. Only that a known moral guardian fanatic pulled a gun on someone at a con. I'd have to go hunting for the list of incidents and I really have no urge to read that ever again.
The poisoning one got some rather ugly news coverage. Luckily no one was severely injured that I am aware of. I'd post a link but the usual suspects here would just gloat over people nearly being killed.
As noted many a time. The artist and indie comic circuit can be appallingly vicious. Especially when these moral guardians get involved. Im just surprised that they have not resorted to violence sooner. But then SJWs are always cowards who prefer to attack from the shadows.
I wanna see some actual links to news stories and whatnot. We had full on moral guardians riding our asses about D&D for years but I don't recall any actual physical attacks.
Well, there was that SJW game designer who tried to kill Jeremy Hambly.
"Tried to kill?" He punched him a few times. Now, I'm not endorsing that -at all - but holy cow, try not to be such a hysterical old woman about it. I get that hyperbole is your whole shtick, but this is pure cringe.
He sucker-punched Jeremy from behind and then started viciously beating him while literally screaming "I'm going to fucking kill you". It took four people to tear him off. Given that as an SJW he's obviously a degenerate with no self control, it was entirely possible he was drugged out of his mind at the time. When he was forced out of the bar, he punched through a window.
If no one had acted to help Jeremy, his assailant would have beat him to death. It's just a very lucky thing that SJWs are incredibly incompetent, and so they've only managed to murder a handful of people over the year. If their ability matched their desires, the death toll would be in the thousands by now.
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 28, 2021, 11:42:54 AM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on November 27, 2021, 02:02:23 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 27, 2021, 01:27:15 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 26, 2021, 06:37:59 AM
Quote from: Omega on November 26, 2021, 01:00:08 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 25, 2021, 10:27:58 AM
Quote from: Omega on November 25, 2021, 06:18:13 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 15, 2021, 11:56:21 PM
Any links to the details of the murders you've seen related to the indie comic con and convention art circuits?
So far as I know. No actual murders have occurred. But theres been one near shooting, and two poisoning attempts in the last 5-10 years I've heard of from friends that attend cons and one that keeps track of the larger moral outrage/SJW attacks. I do not track this stuff as it is depressing to see these creeps rise in power again. I had my fill of this back in the 90s iteration. And back then they would gloat over any "disapproved" artists death.
Do you have any details of the near-shooting & poisonings of gamer-related figures, or is this too just hearsay?
Living in Florida, "near-shootings" are rather common in daily life.
The near shooting one no. Only that a known moral guardian fanatic pulled a gun on someone at a con. I'd have to go hunting for the list of incidents and I really have no urge to read that ever again.
The poisoning one got some rather ugly news coverage. Luckily no one was severely injured that I am aware of. I'd post a link but the usual suspects here would just gloat over people nearly being killed.
As noted many a time. The artist and indie comic circuit can be appallingly vicious. Especially when these moral guardians get involved. Im just surprised that they have not resorted to violence sooner. But then SJWs are always cowards who prefer to attack from the shadows.
I wanna see some actual links to news stories and whatnot. We had full on moral guardians riding our asses about D&D for years but I don't recall any actual physical attacks.
Well, there was that SJW game designer who tried to kill Jeremy Hambly.
"Tried to kill?" He punched him a few times. Now, I'm not endorsing that -at all - but holy cow, try not to be such a hysterical old woman about it. I get that hyperbole is your whole shtick, but this is pure cringe.
He sucker-punched Jeremy from behind and then started viciously beating him while literally screaming "I'm going to fucking kill you". It took four people to tear him off. Given that as an SJW he's obviously a degenerate with no self control, it was entirely possible he was drugged out of his mind at the time. When he was forced out of the bar, he punched through a window.
If no one had acted to help Jeremy, his assailant would have beat him to death. It's just a very lucky thing that SJWs are incredibly incompetent, and so they've only managed to murder a handful of people over the year. If their ability matched their desires, the death toll would be in the thousands by now.
Keep in mind that wokeists get their understanding of violence from video games and movies. They don't know you can literally kill a man with one punch, if you're lucky and he's not. They think a person can be hit in the face fourteen times and still be walking in a straight line afterward. So they downplay 'brawling' and are shocked when someone brings a gun to the fistfight.
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 28, 2021, 11:42:54 AM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on November 27, 2021, 02:02:23 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 27, 2021, 01:27:15 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 26, 2021, 06:37:59 AM
Quote from: Omega on November 26, 2021, 01:00:08 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 25, 2021, 10:27:58 AM
Quote from: Omega on November 25, 2021, 06:18:13 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 15, 2021, 11:56:21 PM
Any links to the details of the murders you've seen related to the indie comic con and convention art circuits?
So far as I know. No actual murders have occurred. But theres been one near shooting, and two poisoning attempts in the last 5-10 years I've heard of from friends that attend cons and one that keeps track of the larger moral outrage/SJW attacks. I do not track this stuff as it is depressing to see these creeps rise in power again. I had my fill of this back in the 90s iteration. And back then they would gloat over any "disapproved" artists death.
Do you have any details of the near-shooting & poisonings of gamer-related figures, or is this too just hearsay?
Living in Florida, "near-shootings" are rather common in daily life.
The near shooting one no. Only that a known moral guardian fanatic pulled a gun on someone at a con. I'd have to go hunting for the list of incidents and I really have no urge to read that ever again.
The poisoning one got some rather ugly news coverage. Luckily no one was severely injured that I am aware of. I'd post a link but the usual suspects here would just gloat over people nearly being killed.
As noted many a time. The artist and indie comic circuit can be appallingly vicious. Especially when these moral guardians get involved. Im just surprised that they have not resorted to violence sooner. But then SJWs are always cowards who prefer to attack from the shadows.
I wanna see some actual links to news stories and whatnot. We had full on moral guardians riding our asses about D&D for years but I don't recall any actual physical attacks.
Well, there was that SJW game designer who tried to kill Jeremy Hambly.
"Tried to kill?" He punched him a few times. Now, I'm not endorsing that -at all - but holy cow, try not to be such a hysterical old woman about it. I get that hyperbole is your whole shtick, but this is pure cringe.
He sucker-punched Jeremy from behind and then started viciously beating him while literally screaming "I'm going to fucking kill you". It took four people to tear him off. Given that as an SJW he's obviously a degenerate with no self control, it was entirely possible he was drugged out of his mind at the time. When he was forced out of the bar, he punched through a window.
If no one had acted to help Jeremy, his assailant would have beat him to death. It's just a very lucky thing that SJWs are incredibly incompetent, and so they've only managed to murder a handful of people over the year. If their ability matched their desires, the death toll would be in the thousands by now.
Did the prosecutor of the case see it that way?
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 28, 2021, 12:05:56 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 28, 2021, 11:42:54 AM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on November 27, 2021, 02:02:23 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 27, 2021, 01:27:15 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 26, 2021, 06:37:59 AM
Quote from: Omega on November 26, 2021, 01:00:08 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 25, 2021, 10:27:58 AM
Quote from: Omega on November 25, 2021, 06:18:13 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 15, 2021, 11:56:21 PM
Any links to the details of the murders you've seen related to the indie comic con and convention art circuits?
So far as I know. No actual murders have occurred. But theres been one near shooting, and two poisoning attempts in the last 5-10 years I've heard of from friends that attend cons and one that keeps track of the larger moral outrage/SJW attacks. I do not track this stuff as it is depressing to see these creeps rise in power again. I had my fill of this back in the 90s iteration. And back then they would gloat over any "disapproved" artists death.
Do you have any details of the near-shooting & poisonings of gamer-related figures, or is this too just hearsay?
Living in Florida, "near-shootings" are rather common in daily life.
The near shooting one no. Only that a known moral guardian fanatic pulled a gun on someone at a con. I'd have to go hunting for the list of incidents and I really have no urge to read that ever again.
The poisoning one got some rather ugly news coverage. Luckily no one was severely injured that I am aware of. I'd post a link but the usual suspects here would just gloat over people nearly being killed.
As noted many a time. The artist and indie comic circuit can be appallingly vicious. Especially when these moral guardians get involved. Im just surprised that they have not resorted to violence sooner. But then SJWs are always cowards who prefer to attack from the shadows.
I wanna see some actual links to news stories and whatnot. We had full on moral guardians riding our asses about D&D for years but I don't recall any actual physical attacks.
Well, there was that SJW game designer who tried to kill Jeremy Hambly.
"Tried to kill?" He punched him a few times. Now, I'm not endorsing that -at all - but holy cow, try not to be such a hysterical old woman about it. I get that hyperbole is your whole shtick, but this is pure cringe.
He sucker-punched Jeremy from behind and then started viciously beating him while literally screaming "I'm going to fucking kill you". It took four people to tear him off. Given that as an SJW he's obviously a degenerate with no self control, it was entirely possible he was drugged out of his mind at the time. When he was forced out of the bar, he punched through a window.
If no one had acted to help Jeremy, his assailant would have beat him to death. It's just a very lucky thing that SJWs are incredibly incompetent, and so they've only managed to murder a handful of people over the year. If their ability matched their desires, the death toll would be in the thousands by now.
Did the prosecutor of the case see it that way?
You mean the same prosecutor who let thousands of Antifa rioters, looters, arsonists and murderers walk without charges? Who the fuck cares? We all knew right away that the Government would be on the side of Hambly's attacker as soon as they figured out his political affiliation and the affiliation of the attacker. Justice in the United States doesn't exist anymore, anyone on the left is protected by the state and given carte blanche to kill, anyone on the right can only get justice by virtual miracle. And some states are worse than others.
Shit, Hambly's attacker's Prosecutor is on record as saying that because he believes in "equity" he thinks white people accused of killing black people should get the death penalty, but not the other way around. He's a fucking monster.
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 28, 2021, 12:13:30 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 28, 2021, 12:05:56 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 28, 2021, 11:42:54 AM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on November 27, 2021, 02:02:23 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 27, 2021, 01:27:15 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 26, 2021, 06:37:59 AM
Quote from: Omega on November 26, 2021, 01:00:08 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 25, 2021, 10:27:58 AM
Quote from: Omega on November 25, 2021, 06:18:13 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 15, 2021, 11:56:21 PM
Any links to the details of the murders you've seen related to the indie comic con and convention art circuits?
So far as I know. No actual murders have occurred. But theres been one near shooting, and two poisoning attempts in the last 5-10 years I've heard of from friends that attend cons and one that keeps track of the larger moral outrage/SJW attacks. I do not track this stuff as it is depressing to see these creeps rise in power again. I had my fill of this back in the 90s iteration. And back then they would gloat over any "disapproved" artists death.
Do you have any details of the near-shooting & poisonings of gamer-related figures, or is this too just hearsay?
Living in Florida, "near-shootings" are rather common in daily life.
The near shooting one no. Only that a known moral guardian fanatic pulled a gun on someone at a con. I'd have to go hunting for the list of incidents and I really have no urge to read that ever again.
The poisoning one got some rather ugly news coverage. Luckily no one was severely injured that I am aware of. I'd post a link but the usual suspects here would just gloat over people nearly being killed.
As noted many a time. The artist and indie comic circuit can be appallingly vicious. Especially when these moral guardians get involved. Im just surprised that they have not resorted to violence sooner. But then SJWs are always cowards who prefer to attack from the shadows.
I wanna see some actual links to news stories and whatnot. We had full on moral guardians riding our asses about D&D for years but I don't recall any actual physical attacks.
Well, there was that SJW game designer who tried to kill Jeremy Hambly.
"Tried to kill?" He punched him a few times. Now, I'm not endorsing that -at all - but holy cow, try not to be such a hysterical old woman about it. I get that hyperbole is your whole shtick, but this is pure cringe.
He sucker-punched Jeremy from behind and then started viciously beating him while literally screaming "I'm going to fucking kill you". It took four people to tear him off. Given that as an SJW he's obviously a degenerate with no self control, it was entirely possible he was drugged out of his mind at the time. When he was forced out of the bar, he punched through a window.
If no one had acted to help Jeremy, his assailant would have beat him to death. It's just a very lucky thing that SJWs are incredibly incompetent, and so they've only managed to murder a handful of people over the year. If their ability matched their desires, the death toll would be in the thousands by now.
Did the prosecutor of the case see it that way?
You mean the same prosecutor who let thousands of Antifa rioters, looters, arsonists and murderers walk without charges? Who the fuck cares? We all knew right away that the Government would be on the side of Hambly's attacker as soon as they figured out his political affiliation and the affiliation of the attacker. Justice in the United States doesn't exist anymore, anyone on the left is protected by the state and given carte blanche to kill, anyone on the right can only get justice by virtual miracle. And some states are worse than others.
Shit, Hambly's attacker's Prosecutor is on record as saying that because he believes in "equity" he thinks white people accused of killing black people should get the death penalty, but not the other way around. He's a fucking monster.
So that would be a "no" then.
I'll avoid commenting on the rest of your post as it's quite off topic for the gaming section.
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 28, 2021, 11:42:54 AM
He sucker-punched Jeremy from behind and then started viciously beating him while literally screaming "I'm going to fucking kill you". It took four people to tear him off. Given that as an SJW he's obviously a degenerate with no self control, it was entirely possible he was drugged out of his mind at the time. When he was forced out of the bar, he punched through a window.
If no one had acted to help Jeremy, his assailant would have beat him to death. It's just a very lucky thing that SJWs are incredibly incompetent, and so they've only managed to murder a handful of people over the year. If their ability matched their desires, the death toll would be in the thousands by now.
"If", "would have", and "possible" doing a lot of work here. When you have to rely on this many hypotheticals to make your argument, your argument is probably shit.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 28, 2021, 11:47:38 AM
Keep in mind that wokeists get their understanding of violence from video games and movies. They don't know you can literally kill a man with one punch, if you're lucky and he's not. They think a person can be hit in the face fourteen times and still be walking in a straight line afterward. So they downplay 'brawling' and are shocked when someone brings a gun to the fistfight.
Sure, you can "literally" kill a man with one punch, but considering that the vast majority of fights, professional or on the street, don't involve fatalities, I'm still calling this hysterical. Hey, you know what else you can
literally do? Take a few punches without turning into a giant, weeping vagina.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on November 28, 2021, 04:10:49 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 28, 2021, 11:42:54 AM
He sucker-punched Jeremy from behind and then started viciously beating him while literally screaming "I'm going to fucking kill you". It took four people to tear him off. Given that as an SJW he's obviously a degenerate with no self control, it was entirely possible he was drugged out of his mind at the time. When he was forced out of the bar, he punched through a window.
If no one had acted to help Jeremy, his assailant would have beat him to death. It's just a very lucky thing that SJWs are incredibly incompetent, and so they've only managed to murder a handful of people over the year. If their ability matched their desires, the death toll would be in the thousands by now.
"If", "would have", and "possible" doing a lot of work here. When you have to rely on this many hypotheticals to make your argument, your argument is probably shit.
Shouting "I'm going to fucking kill you" is doing a lot of work there. No one can really tell what he was really thinking.
Quote from: Shasarak on November 28, 2021, 07:06:30 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on November 28, 2021, 04:10:49 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 28, 2021, 11:42:54 AM
He sucker-punched Jeremy from behind and then started viciously beating him while literally screaming "I'm going to fucking kill you". It took four people to tear him off. Given that as an SJW he's obviously a degenerate with no self control, it was entirely possible he was drugged out of his mind at the time. When he was forced out of the bar, he punched through a window.
If no one had acted to help Jeremy, his assailant would have beat him to death. It's just a very lucky thing that SJWs are incredibly incompetent, and so they've only managed to murder a handful of people over the year. If their ability matched their desires, the death toll would be in the thousands by now.
"If", "would have", and "possible" doing a lot of work here. When you have to rely on this many hypotheticals to make your argument, your argument is probably shit.
Shouting "I'm going to fucking kill you" is doing a lot of work there. No one can really tell what he was really thinking.
Maybe he meant it metaphorically? ??? [/s]
Quote from: Shasarak on November 28, 2021, 07:06:30 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on November 28, 2021, 04:10:49 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 28, 2021, 11:42:54 AM
He sucker-punched Jeremy from behind and then started viciously beating him while literally screaming "I'm going to fucking kill you". It took four people to tear him off. Given that as an SJW he's obviously a degenerate with no self control, it was entirely possible he was drugged out of his mind at the time. When he was forced out of the bar, he punched through a window.
If no one had acted to help Jeremy, his assailant would have beat him to death. It's just a very lucky thing that SJWs are incredibly incompetent, and so they've only managed to murder a handful of people over the year. If their ability matched their desires, the death toll would be in the thousands by now.
"If", "would have", and "possible" doing a lot of work here. When you have to rely on this many hypotheticals to make your argument, your argument is probably shit.
Shouting "I'm going to fucking kill you" is doing a lot of work there. No one can really tell what he was really thinking.
If I had a dollar for every loudmouth in a bar who threatened grievous bodily harm or death, before, during or after a fight, I'd have as much money as the guy who wrote Zweihander. Could he have been planning on actual murder? Sure. But saying ain't doing, and a lot of people talk like badasses who aren't. Hell. I've told my
dogs I'm gonna kill them more than once, and they're still breathin'. "I'mma kill you, motherfucker!" is said so often during fights that, honestly, it's not even that scary. I've had it said to me more than once, and I've never been afraid that I was actually about to be killed.
Don't get me wrong, the dude should be in jail after committing an assault like that. I don't care who he punched or what their beliefs are. But getting punched a few times, then running around hysterically, wringing your hands and yelling about how you were "ALMOST MURDERED GUISE OMG' is some big snowflake energy. And while I'm not advocating violence against anyone, I will say that if you're the type of person who spends all your time talking shit online, it might help if you weren't a pussy. Because someone, somewhere, sometime, IRL, is gonna call your bluff. Count on it.
Quote from: Shasarak on November 28, 2021, 07:06:30 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on November 28, 2021, 04:10:49 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 28, 2021, 11:42:54 AM
He sucker-punched Jeremy from behind and then started viciously beating him while literally screaming "I'm going to fucking kill you". It took four people to tear him off. Given that as an SJW he's obviously a degenerate with no self control, it was entirely possible he was drugged out of his mind at the time. When he was forced out of the bar, he punched through a window.
If no one had acted to help Jeremy, his assailant would have beat him to death. It's just a very lucky thing that SJWs are incredibly incompetent, and so they've only managed to murder a handful of people over the year. If their ability matched their desires, the death toll would be in the thousands by now.
"If", "would have", and "possible" doing a lot of work here. When you have to rely on this many hypotheticals to make your argument, your argument is probably shit.
Shouting "I'm going to fucking kill you" is doing a lot of work there. No one can really tell what he was really thinking.
Odd to think that a premeditated murder attempt wouldn't include a better weapon than empty hands.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on November 28, 2021, 07:12:16 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on November 28, 2021, 07:06:30 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on November 28, 2021, 04:10:49 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 28, 2021, 11:42:54 AM
He sucker-punched Jeremy from behind and then started viciously beating him while literally screaming "I'm going to fucking kill you". It took four people to tear him off. Given that as an SJW he's obviously a degenerate with no self control, it was entirely possible he was drugged out of his mind at the time. When he was forced out of the bar, he punched through a window.
If no one had acted to help Jeremy, his assailant would have beat him to death. It's just a very lucky thing that SJWs are incredibly incompetent, and so they've only managed to murder a handful of people over the year. If their ability matched their desires, the death toll would be in the thousands by now.
"If", "would have", and "possible" doing a lot of work here. When you have to rely on this many hypotheticals to make your argument, your argument is probably shit.
Shouting "I'm going to fucking kill you" is doing a lot of work there. No one can really tell what he was really thinking.
If I had a dollar for every loudmouth in a bar who threatened grievous bodily harm or death, before, during or after a fight, I'd have as much money as the guy who wrote Zweihander. Could he have been planning on actual murder? Sure. But saying ain't doing, and a lot of people talk like badasses who aren't. Hell. I've told my dogs I'm gonna kill them more than once, and they're still breathin'. "I'mma kill you, motherfucker!" is said so often during fights that, honestly, it's not even that scary. I've had it said to me more than once, and I've never been afraid that I was actually about to be killed.
Threatening to kill a nice guy like you?
No, thats unpossible.
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 28, 2021, 07:34:41 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on November 28, 2021, 07:06:30 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on November 28, 2021, 04:10:49 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 28, 2021, 11:42:54 AM
He sucker-punched Jeremy from behind and then started viciously beating him while literally screaming "I'm going to fucking kill you". It took four people to tear him off. Given that as an SJW he's obviously a degenerate with no self control, it was entirely possible he was drugged out of his mind at the time. When he was forced out of the bar, he punched through a window.
If no one had acted to help Jeremy, his assailant would have beat him to death. It's just a very lucky thing that SJWs are incredibly incompetent, and so they've only managed to murder a handful of people over the year. If their ability matched their desires, the death toll would be in the thousands by now.
"If", "would have", and "possible" doing a lot of work here. When you have to rely on this many hypotheticals to make your argument, your argument is probably shit.
Shouting "I'm going to fucking kill you" is doing a lot of work there. No one can really tell what he was really thinking.
Odd to think that a premeditated murder attempt wouldn't include a better weapon than empty hands.
Did he have some levels in Monk? Probably would not have had his proficiency bonus if he used "better" weapons.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on November 28, 2021, 07:12:16 PM
If I had a dollar for every loudmouth in a bar who threatened grievous bodily harm or death, before, during or after a fight, I'd have as much money as the guy who wrote Zweihander.
You give a pass about comments in a bar fight because people always talk crap and don't mean which is reasonable. Then you argue endlessly over a point on a message board as if everything ever said on a message board is deep and heartfelt. Are you new to message boards in general? Over the top comments are the fuel that keeps the whole thing going.
Quote from: Ruprecht on November 28, 2021, 08:38:59 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on November 28, 2021, 07:12:16 PM
If I had a dollar for every loudmouth in a bar who threatened grievous bodily harm or death, before, during or after a fight, I'd have as much money as the guy who wrote Zweihander.
You give a pass about comments in a bar fight because people always talk crap and don't mean which is reasonable. Then you argue endlessly over a point on a message board as if everything ever said on a message board is deep and heartfelt. Are you new to message boards in general? Over the top comments are the fuel that keeps the whole thing going.
He's new to a lot of things, including rational thought and threat assessment.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 28, 2021, 09:38:27 PM
Quote from: Ruprecht on November 28, 2021, 08:38:59 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on November 28, 2021, 07:12:16 PM
If I had a dollar for every loudmouth in a bar who threatened grievous bodily harm or death, before, during or after a fight, I'd have as much money as the guy who wrote Zweihander.
You give a pass about comments in a bar fight because people always talk crap and don't mean which is reasonable. Then you argue endlessly over a point on a message board as if everything ever said on a message board is deep and heartfelt. Are you new to message boards in general? Over the top comments are the fuel that keeps the whole thing going.
He's new to a lot of things, including rational thought and threat assessment.
I've never been so oblivious as to be caught unawares by an attack from behind in a bar, so my threat assessment is at least better than The Quarterpoundering's.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 26, 2021, 06:37:59 AM
I wanna see some actual links to news stories and whatnot. We had full on moral guardians riding our asses about D&D for years but I don't recall any actual physical attacks.
Aside from the Louter (sp?) incidents at gaming cons. I have not heard of any other acts of violence in the gaming cons. Several of kicking people out for fake charges. As noted above. The attacks, or attempted attacks were at non-gaming cons.
You are fortunate then. Where I lived we had to deal with several moral guardians carrying on the Satanic Panic. See my comments in an older thread on that mess. Short story is one of my players was sent to Military School to 'fix' him. Librarians trashed our rented gaming room and blamed it on us to get rid of us. And Im pretty sure the mother of two of our players moved out of state to "save" them.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on November 28, 2021, 07:12:16 PM
If I had a dollar for every loudmouth in a bar who threatened grievous bodily harm or death, before, during or after a fight, I'd have as much money as the guy who wrote Zweihander.
I wouldn't consider Daniel Fox to be wealthy.
Quote from: jeff37923 on November 29, 2021, 04:10:52 AM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on November 28, 2021, 07:12:16 PM
If I had a dollar for every loudmouth in a bar who threatened grievous bodily harm or death, before, during or after a fight, I'd have as much money as the guy who wrote Zweihander.
I wouldn't consider Daniel Fox to be wealthy.
It says a lot that he considers Fox to be wealthy, doesn't it?
Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 29, 2021, 08:14:22 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on November 29, 2021, 04:10:52 AM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on November 28, 2021, 07:12:16 PM
If I had a dollar for every loudmouth in a bar who threatened grievous bodily harm or death, before, during or after a fight, I'd have as much money as the guy who wrote Zweihander.
I wouldn't consider Daniel Fox to be wealthy.
It says a lot that he considers Fox to be wealthy, doesn't it?
Who knows if dude has "fuck off" money or not? But given that he had a successful marketing career prior to his successful game industry career, I'm guessing he's not living the life of an unmarried, childless, middle-aged man in a tiny South American hovel that smells like cat litter and stale smoke. But, hey, go off.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 29, 2021, 08:14:22 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on November 29, 2021, 04:10:52 AM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on November 28, 2021, 07:12:16 PM
If I had a dollar for every loudmouth in a bar who threatened grievous bodily harm or death, before, during or after a fight, I'd have as much money as the guy who wrote Zweihander.
I wouldn't consider Daniel Fox to be wealthy.
It says a lot that he considers Fox to be wealthy, doesn't it?
I thought it was a slap down on Zweiguy in a look at his tens of dollars kind of way
Quote from: Shasarak on November 29, 2021, 02:47:45 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 29, 2021, 08:14:22 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on November 29, 2021, 04:10:52 AM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on November 28, 2021, 07:12:16 PM
If I had a dollar for every loudmouth in a bar who threatened grievous bodily harm or death, before, during or after a fight, I'd have as much money as the guy who wrote Zweihander.
I wouldn't consider Daniel Fox to be wealthy.
It says a lot that he considers Fox to be wealthy, doesn't it?
I thought it was a slap down on Zweiguy in a look at his tens of dollars kind of way
Nah, he's trying to show off his tough guy cred. 'Look, I've been threatened so many times! You guys are just wussy for taking threats seriously!'.
I think I'll steal a page from a friend of mine: if you're gonna bang on about how 'everyone gets a beating', I think you need to present your bona fides and show us you can take one. Preferably three or four on one. Just so you can impress us.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 29, 2021, 06:41:38 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on November 29, 2021, 02:47:45 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 29, 2021, 08:14:22 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on November 29, 2021, 04:10:52 AM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on November 28, 2021, 07:12:16 PM
If I had a dollar for every loudmouth in a bar who threatened grievous bodily harm or death, before, during or after a fight, I'd have as much money as the guy who wrote Zweihander.
I wouldn't consider Daniel Fox to be wealthy.
It says a lot that he considers Fox to be wealthy, doesn't it?
I thought it was a slap down on Zweiguy in a look at his tens of dollars kind of way
Nah, he's trying to show off his tough guy cred. 'Look, I've been threatened so many times! You guys are just wussy for taking threats seriously!'.
I think I'll steal a page from a friend of mine: if you're gonna bang on about how 'everyone gets a beating', I think you need to present your bona fides and show us you can take one. Preferably three or four on one. Just so you can impress us.
Which gang is jumping him in?
Quote from: Tubesock Army on November 29, 2021, 02:32:28 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 29, 2021, 08:14:22 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on November 29, 2021, 04:10:52 AM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on November 28, 2021, 07:12:16 PM
If I had a dollar for every loudmouth in a bar who threatened grievous bodily harm or death, before, during or after a fight, I'd have as much money as the guy who wrote Zweihander.
I wouldn't consider Daniel Fox to be wealthy.
It says a lot that he considers Fox to be wealthy, doesn't it?
Who knows if dude has "fuck off" money or not? But given that he had a successful marketing career prior to his successful game industry career, I'm guessing he's not living the life of an unmarried, childless, middle-aged man in a tiny South American hovel that smells like cat litter and stale smoke. But, hey, go off.
Three bedrooms (one converted to a home office), living room, solarium, fireplace, rooftop patio with built-in grill. My cleaning lady keeps the smell reasonably fresh.
" I'm guessing he's not living the life of an unmarried, childless, middle-aged man in a tiny South American hovel that smells like cat litter and stale smoke. But, hey, go off."
So unmarried childless people who don't die before they hit late 40s are bad and unworthy of tubesock's hard won "starfucker" respect? South America is where the shameful and insignificant are forced to retreat to? Cat shit and smoke are the marks of the pitiful?
Who knew? What a worthwhile contribution. If you want respect you need to rip off the corporate descendants of the people who ripped off D&D, Michael Moorcock, and the Northern Renaissance about 35 years later. Of course!
I'm glad to have the compass rose of life's map laid out so succinctly in a thread about people bothered that DCC of all companies is putting on the wettest, most apparatchik bridled safe-space con ever and trendily stink-eyeing a good chunk of their loyal customers as their big seasonal move in the online social clout markets.
Quote from: palaeomerus on November 30, 2021, 09:52:29 AM
" I'm guessing he's not living the life of an unmarried, childless, middle-aged man in a tiny South American hovel that smells like cat litter and stale smoke. But, hey, go off."
So unmarried childless people who don't die before they hit late 40s are bad and unworthy of tubesock's hard won "starfucker" respect? South America is where the shameful and insignificant are forced to retreat to? Cat shit and smoke are the marks of the pitiful?
Who knew? What a worthwhile contribution. If you want respect you need to rip off the corporate descendants of the people who ripped off D&D, Michael Moorcock, and the Northern Renaissance about 35 years later. Of course!
I'm glad to have the compass rose of life's map laid out so succinctly in a thread about people bothered that DCC of all companies is putting on the wettest, most apparatchik bridled safe-space con ever and trendily stink-eyeing a good chunk of their loyal customers as their big seasonal move in the online social clout markets.
Tubesock moking cat ladies? Based.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on November 29, 2021, 02:32:28 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 29, 2021, 08:14:22 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on November 29, 2021, 04:10:52 AM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on November 28, 2021, 07:12:16 PM
If I had a dollar for every loudmouth in a bar who threatened grievous bodily harm or death, before, during or after a fight, I'd have as much money as the guy who wrote Zweihander.
I wouldn't consider Daniel Fox to be wealthy.
It says a lot that he considers Fox to be wealthy, doesn't it?
Who knows if dude has "fuck off" money or not? But given that he had a successful marketing career prior to his successful game industry career, I'm guessing he's not living the life of an unmarried, childless, middle-aged man in a tiny South American hovel that smells like cat litter and stale smoke. But, hey, go off.
Fuck, dude. You are posting like something that got scooped out of a litter box and thrown away.
Quote from: jeff37923 on November 14, 2021, 02:00:00 PM
Quote from: 3catcircus on November 14, 2021, 09:42:20 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on November 14, 2021, 09:36:44 AM
Quote from: Hakdov on November 13, 2021, 07:11:54 PM
Quote from: dkabq on November 13, 2021, 06:07:11 PM
I went there when it was on Mills and Colonial, before they moved to by the Navel Training Center. It's where I purchased pretty much all of my RPG stuff back in the long, long, ago.
I remember getting my copy of Game Design Vol. 1: Theory and Practice by SJG there way back when I was a teenager. I also used to go to the location by the navy base every time my unit went there for training which was pretty often. Ahh... the memories of a time when it was fun to go to the game store instead of now when it is all bland and disappointing. I can't even remember the last time I actually bought something at one.
I remember going there after NTC boot camp and through A school and NNPS. Gaming helped me stay sane during that time.
This. I was always somewhere between Suggested 15 and Suggested 20 study hours at NNPS, which still left plenty of time to game. To a guy without a car, Enterprise 1701 was a close enough walk. One I got my car, though, I spent much more time far far away from the barracks, so my gaming went down.
I was at Mandatory 35 and 40 study hours. I still had enough time to go to concerts at Visage on OBT, play 2000 point All Factions Star Fleet Battles games, and some Classic Traveller/d6 Star Wars/Mekton II/Cyberpunk on occassion.
Who would have thought this is a NNPS reunion? I take it you were all Nucs? Small world. Edited to add...This is sad I do not remember 100 percent, but pretty sure I was class 9106.
Quote from: jeff37923 on November 30, 2021, 01:25:11 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on November 29, 2021, 02:32:28 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 29, 2021, 08:14:22 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on November 29, 2021, 04:10:52 AM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on November 28, 2021, 07:12:16 PM
If I had a dollar for every loudmouth in a bar who threatened grievous bodily harm or death, before, during or after a fight, I'd have as much money as the guy who wrote Zweihander.
I wouldn't consider Daniel Fox to be wealthy.
It says a lot that he considers Fox to be wealthy, doesn't it?
Who knows if dude has "fuck off" money or not? But given that he had a successful marketing career prior to his successful game industry career, I'm guessing he's not living the life of an unmarried, childless, middle-aged man in a tiny South American hovel that smells like cat litter and stale smoke. But, hey, go off.
Fuck, dude. You are posting like something that got scooped out of a litter box and thrown away.
And now you've discovered his secret; he really is an animate turd. :)
Quote from: hedgehobbit on November 10, 2021, 07:49:40 AM
Quote from: dkabq on November 10, 2021, 07:18:46 AMThat's where I am at. I don't know if changing pronouns will bring more women into DCC, but it seems innocuous. That said, it does have the potential to be a step onto the slippery slope.
Any woman, or guy for that matter, that will only play a game if it uses politically correct pronouns isn't a person you would want to join your game or hobby in the first place.
Imagine if I said I would only buy/play games with white guys on the cover and that represented me? I would be called all kinds of ists and ism. inclusivity is exclusionary.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 30, 2021, 02:08:43 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on November 30, 2021, 01:25:11 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on November 29, 2021, 02:32:28 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 29, 2021, 08:14:22 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on November 29, 2021, 04:10:52 AM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on November 28, 2021, 07:12:16 PM
If I had a dollar for every loudmouth in a bar who threatened grievous bodily harm or death, before, during or after a fight, I'd have as much money as the guy who wrote Zweihander.
I wouldn't consider Daniel Fox to be wealthy.
It says a lot that he considers Fox to be wealthy, doesn't it?
Who knows if dude has "fuck off" money or not? But given that he had a successful marketing career prior to his successful game industry career, I'm guessing he's not living the life of an unmarried, childless, middle-aged man in a tiny South American hovel that smells like cat litter and stale smoke. But, hey, go off.
Fuck, dude. You are posting like something that got scooped out of a litter box and thrown away.
And now you've discovered his secret; he really is an animate turd. :)
A Turd Golem if you will. Physical Attacks: Pestilence, Disease 2d6 damage per HD of the creature, Save vs poison for half damage.
Mental Attacks: Feeble Mind, Terminally Online. Save vs Spell negates.
I don't agree with Tubesock Army, but this is exactly the kind of dogpiling and abuse that's the first step toward creating an echo chamber. True freedom of speech doesn't require respect, but it does require some degree of tolerance and not burying them under a mound of verbal fecalism.
Well, here's a positive: I like his choice of avatar.
Ed the Sock is a great Canadian icon.
Quote from: Pat on December 01, 2021, 03:45:54 AM
I don't agree with Tubesock Army, but this is exactly the kind of dogpiling and abuse that's the first step toward creating an echo chamber. True freedom of speech doesn't require respect, but it does require some degree of tolerance and not burying them under a mound of verbal fecalism.
Some people are all out of tolerance.
Quote from: oggsmash on December 01, 2021, 12:14:58 PM
Quote from: Pat on December 01, 2021, 03:45:54 AM
I don't agree with Tubesock Army, but this is exactly the kind of dogpiling and abuse that's the first step toward creating an echo chamber. True freedom of speech doesn't require respect, but it does require some degree of tolerance and not burying them under a mound of verbal fecalism.
Some people are all out of tolerance.
Pretty much. My tolerance for rampant idiocy like what Tubesnake flings around is zero. Hence why he's blocked.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 01, 2021, 12:44:03 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on December 01, 2021, 12:14:58 PM
Quote from: Pat on December 01, 2021, 03:45:54 AM
I don't agree with Tubesock Army, but this is exactly the kind of dogpiling and abuse that's the first step toward creating an echo chamber. True freedom of speech doesn't require respect, but it does require some degree of tolerance and not burying them under a mound of verbal fecalism.
Some people are all out of tolerance.
Pretty much. My tolerance for rampant idiocy like what Tubesnake flings around is zero. Hence why he's blocked.
Imagine blocking someone and still not being able to stop commenting on their posts lmao.
(https://c.tenor.com/eob42b5du5UAAAAC/brokeback-mountain-brokeback-mountain-gifs.gif)
Quote from: rocksfalleverybodydies on December 01, 2021, 06:27:26 AM
Well, here's a positive: I like his choice of avatar.
Ed the Sock is a great Canadian icon.
Quote from: oggsmash on December 01, 2021, 12:14:58 PM
Quote from: Pat on December 01, 2021, 03:45:54 AM
I don't agree with Tubesock Army, but this is exactly the kind of dogpiling and abuse that's the first step toward creating an echo chamber. True freedom of speech doesn't require respect, but it does require some degree of tolerance and not burying them under a mound of verbal fecalism.
Some people are all out of tolerance.
I would argue we're full of tolerance, he's not banned and he can freely vomit whatever idiocy he can dig out of his ass.
I'm really sorry Pat's fee-fees are hurt when we mock idiots, but he himself said freedom of speech doesn't require respect, and then cries we don't respect the idiot.
Go peddle that in TBP or any of the other RPG related forums my dude. Lets see how fast you get banned by the tolerant left.
^ You're a fucking idiot. I explicitly make a distinction between respect and tolerance. Learn to read.
Quote from: oggsmash on December 01, 2021, 12:14:58 PM
Quote from: Pat on December 01, 2021, 03:45:54 AM
I don't agree with Tubesock Army, but this is exactly the kind of dogpiling and abuse that's the first step toward creating an echo chamber. True freedom of speech doesn't require respect, but it does require some degree of tolerance and not burying them under a mound of verbal fecalism.
Some people are all out of tolerance.
Which is exactly why the world has broken into irrational, partisan camps that spend all day throwing shit and screeching like monkeys.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on December 01, 2021, 12:48:47 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 01, 2021, 12:44:03 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on December 01, 2021, 12:14:58 PM
Quote from: Pat on December 01, 2021, 03:45:54 AM
I don't agree with Tubesock Army, but this is exactly the kind of dogpiling and abuse that's the first step toward creating an echo chamber. True freedom of speech doesn't require respect, but it does require some degree of tolerance and not burying them under a mound of verbal fecalism.
Some people are all out of tolerance.
Pretty much. My tolerance for rampant idiocy like what Tubesnake flings around is zero. Hence why he's blocked.
Imagine blocking someone and still not being able to stop commenting on their posts lmao.
A flouncing gif would have been better.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on December 01, 2021, 12:48:47 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 01, 2021, 12:44:03 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on December 01, 2021, 12:14:58 PM
Quote from: Pat on December 01, 2021, 03:45:54 AM
I don't agree with Tubesock Army, but this is exactly the kind of dogpiling and abuse that's the first step toward creating an echo chamber. True freedom of speech doesn't require respect, but it does require some degree of tolerance and not burying them under a mound of verbal fecalism.
Some people are all out of tolerance.
Pretty much. My tolerance for rampant idiocy like what Tubesnake flings around is zero. Hence why he's blocked.
Imagine blocking someone and still not being able to stop commenting on their posts lmao.
(https://c.tenor.com/eob42b5du5UAAAAC/brokeback-mountain-brokeback-mountain-gifs.gif)
He's the same guy obsessively following RPGnet within a dedicated thread.
Greetings!
Yes...yes...Screech loud, brothers! Gnash your teeth in grim resolve for the work that must be done!
SCREECH YOUR WRATH! ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on December 01, 2021, 01:34:02 PM
Greetings!
Yes...yes...Screech loud, brothers! Gnash your teeth in grim resolve for the work that must be done!
SCREECH YOUR WRATH! ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Screeching is all they have, since they can't cancel us here :)
Quote from: Pat on December 01, 2021, 12:55:30 PM
Which is exactly why the world has broken into irrational, partisan camps that spend all day throwing shit and screeching like monkeys.
The lie is the belief that the world has ever been not broken into irrational, partisan camps that spend all day throwing shit and screeching like monkeys.
If only we could get back to the good old Kumbaya days that never happened.
Quote from: Pat on December 01, 2021, 12:55:30 PM
^ You're a fucking idiot. I explicitly make a distinction between respect and tolerance. Learn to read.
Quote from: oggsmash on December 01, 2021, 12:14:58 PM
Quote from: Pat on December 01, 2021, 03:45:54 AM
I don't agree with Tubesock Army, but this is exactly the kind of dogpiling and abuse that's the first step toward creating an echo chamber. True freedom of speech doesn't require respect, but it does require some degree of tolerance and not burying them under a mound of verbal fecalism.
Some people are all out of tolerance.
Which is exactly why the world has broken into irrational, partisan camps that spend all day throwing shit and screeching like monkeys.
I dont think it broke, I think people who probably hate one another are just able to communicate through means before unavailable (interwebs and every booger eater can use a smart phone). Folks who do not get along, just operate in different spaces IRL. The internet makes this a bit nebulous, and some people think they can take their internet vitriol to the real world, and hijinks ensue. I think there will be LOTS more hijinks, and lots more shit tossing, and will cause the USA to split up into something else. Enjoy the decline, the last stop on the bus may be past our time, but it will certainly keep going downhill during our time.
Quote from: Shasarak on December 01, 2021, 03:02:52 PM
Quote from: Pat on December 01, 2021, 12:55:30 PM
Which is exactly why the world has broken into irrational, partisan camps that spend all day throwing shit and screeching like monkeys.
The lie is the belief that the world has ever been not broken into irrational, partisan camps that spend all day throwing shit and screeching like monkeys.
If only we could get back to the good old Kumbaya days that never happened.
So you think 2016 and 2020 were perfectly normal election cycles?
I'm not talking about some utopian distant past that nobody remembers. There's been a crazy rise of extremism and partisanship since 2008, which went nuclear in 2016.
I think you meant from 2004, really.
But this has gone very very off topic. Please stick to the topic of the subject.
Yeah, big surprise- the SJWs win another one. Tell me again about how the freaking "corner is being turned."
Quote from: Ka'arl Sorcerer of Cha'alt on November 10, 2021, 04:25:39 AM
I just watched the video "Maw of the Mike" where they talk about DCCRPG becoming more inclusive by changing all pronouns to they in not just all future products but going back through the entire back catalog as well to make changes to be more inclusive.
They want to be less inclusive in their games and only be for leftists that's fine by me, my friends and I can move on to a different game.
So much easier to just use 'they/them'. You don't have to assume gender and you can allow anyone to self identify as they see fit. If you don't like it, just substitute "they" for "him" or "her" (based on your prefered pronoun) everywhere. So easy.
This thread is just people complaining about the dumbest things.
Quote from: fixable on December 03, 2021, 02:47:17 AM
This thread is just people complaining about the dumbest things.
You tanked "self awareness", didn't you?
Quote from: fixable on December 03, 2021, 02:47:17 AM
Quote from: Ka'arl Sorcerer of Cha'alt on November 10, 2021, 04:25:39 AM
I just watched the video "Maw of the Mike" where they talk about DCCRPG becoming more inclusive by changing all pronouns to they in not just all future products but going back through the entire back catalog as well to make changes to be more inclusive.
They want to be less inclusive in their games and only be for leftists that's fine by me, my friends and I can move on to a different game.
So much easier to just use 'they/them'. You don't have to assume gender and you can allow anyone to self identify as they see fit. If you don't like it, just substitute "they" for "him" or "her" (based on your prefered pronoun) everywhere. So easy.
This thread is just people complaining about the dumbest things.
If they were talking about making the change in works produced going forward, then I can see the argument for the kvetching being a tempest in a teacup. However, spending resources to re-edit the entire back catalog seems, to me, to be a waste of resources that could be going into the creation of new products. Especially as I don't see that effort resulting in an increase in sales. But I could be wrong. Time will tell.
As such, it doesn't seem dumb to me to discuss (and even complain) about the topic. YMMV.
Also considered in the thread are their convention rules. It does not seem, to me, to be unreasonable/dumb to discuss/complain about them. Again, YMMV.
And don't forget, the internet is a commutation's tool used the world over, where people can come together to bitch about stuff and share pornography with one another. :P
Quote from: fixable on December 03, 2021, 02:47:17 AM
So much easier to just use 'they/them'. You don't have to assume gender and you can allow anyone to self identify as they see fit. If you don't like it, just substitute "they" for "him" or "her" (based on your prefered pronoun) everywhere. So easy.
For new content, sure, it isn't a big deal- you already are adjusting things in the editing process (including dealing with pagination issues where changing "he" to "they" causes text to spill over to a new page). Retrofitting existing text, ugh. I tweaked the rules for a strategic level game which had a few pages of rules covering individuals and these sections covered beings that could be humanoids (presumably two biological sexes, but not relevant to the game if it was one, two, or 57), sentient plants, AIs, etc. using "he" (in the gender inclusive usage) didn't fit well. It wasn't the best use of my time switching over to "they". For a RPG, where you are dealing with individual characters (or NPCs) throughout the text, this would be a major time sink to adjust (vs. a minor level of effort to just fix reported typos and the like). Me, I'd rather have their editing staff work on new products, not burn person days to person months changing an already printed product (even if it randomly used xie, xir, he, she, they, ... and mismatched them between sentences [Bob is foo. He is also bar. In addition, xie is baz.] for various examples).
Seriously. And I say this as someone who annoys the heck out of coworkers because he carries a red pen (plus the blue or black one) so I can correct crimes against grammar in memos and paperwork I am asked to read and sign off on.
Quote from: fixable on December 03, 2021, 02:47:17 AM
Quote from: Ka'arl Sorcerer of Cha'alt on November 10, 2021, 04:25:39 AM
I just watched the video "Maw of the Mike" where they talk about DCCRPG becoming more inclusive by changing all pronouns to they in not just all future products but going back through the entire back catalog as well to make changes to be more inclusive.
They want to be less inclusive in their games and only be for leftists that's fine by me, my friends and I can move on to a different game.
So much easier to just use 'they/them'. You don't have to assume gender and you can allow anyone to self identify as they see fit. If you don't like it, just substitute "they" for "him" or "her" (based on your prefered pronoun) everywhere. So easy.
This thread is just people complaining about the dumbest things.
Use they for he or she is one thing, but using they (rather than them) for him or her is simply abhorrent.
I want to see one of these woke companies create a table to generate your characters (or NPC) gender randomly. That would be super-entertaining.
Quote from: Ruprecht on December 03, 2021, 10:38:40 AM
I want to see one of these woke companies create a table to generate your characters (or NPC) gender randomly. That would be super-entertaining.
That would be funny but the woke crowd would reject it because, besides being the enemies of fun, they tend to have a weak sense of self and don't actually like role playing much. They prefer playing dress up with a fantastical and quirky and often animal-hybrid (aka furry) version of their precious identity. Role playing the other gender would be "problematic."
As for DCC, a mere 9 years ago, Goodperson Games agreed that "he" was gender neutral and went with that. Their conviction is apparently so weak that they are re-working old publications, despite DCC being very popular with women, trans, and pretty much everyone who enjoys a wild game. Apparently "he" was so disturbing to women that it caused the public table I played at for a long time to regularly be at 50% or more women.
Quote from: fixable on December 03, 2021, 02:47:17 AM
Quote from: Ka'arl Sorcerer of Cha'alt on November 10, 2021, 04:25:39 AM
I just watched the video "Maw of the Mike" where they talk about DCCRPG becoming more inclusive by changing all pronouns to they in not just all future products but going back through the entire back catalog as well to make changes to be more inclusive.
They want to be less inclusive in their games and only be for leftists that's fine by me, my friends and I can move on to a different game.
So much easier to just use 'they/them'. You don't have to assume gender and you can allow anyone to self identify as they see fit. If you don't like it, just substitute "they" for "him" or "her" (based on your prefered pronoun) everywhere. So easy.
This thread is just people complaining about the dumbest things.
Logically if you use he/him then you save 2/1 letters that can then be used for more important words like diversity.
8)
Quote from: Ruprecht on December 03, 2021, 10:38:40 AM
I want to see one of these woke companies create a table to generate your characters (or NPC) gender randomly. That would be super-entertaining.
In my experience, neither old-school nor new-school gamers like generating character gender randomly. There's probably a small minority who enjoy it. I used to generate my HarnMaster characters that way, but I rarely did it in other games.
Quote from: jhkim on December 03, 2021, 07:43:20 PM
I used to generate my HarnMaster characters that way, but I rarely did it in other games.
HarnMaster where you generate your astrological SunSign. They almost hit Aftermath levels of complicated. Still it is an amazing setting.
Quote from: jhkim on December 03, 2021, 07:43:20 PM
Quote from: Ruprecht on December 03, 2021, 10:38:40 AM
I want to see one of these woke companies create a table to generate your characters (or NPC) gender randomly. That would be super-entertaining.
In my experience, neither old-school nor new-school gamers like generating character gender randomly. There's probably a small minority who enjoy it. I used to generate my HarnMaster characters that way, but I rarely did it in other games.
I've NEVER met an old-school gamer who prefers to spend 4 hours doing meticulous minmaxing with a point-buy system rather than 2 minutes rolling six stats and some random tables. Not a fucking one.
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 05, 2021, 01:51:57 PM
Quote from: jhkim on December 03, 2021, 07:43:20 PM
Quote from: Ruprecht on December 03, 2021, 10:38:40 AM
I want to see one of these woke companies create a table to generate your characters (or NPC) gender randomly. That would be super-entertaining.
In my experience, neither old-school nor new-school gamers like generating character gender randomly. There's probably a small minority who enjoy it. I used to generate my HarnMaster characters that way, but I rarely did it in other games.
I've NEVER met an old-school gamer who prefers to spend 4 hours doing meticulous minmaxing with a point-buy system rather than 2 minutes rolling six stats and some random tables. Not a fucking one.
Facts.
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 05, 2021, 01:51:57 PM
Quote from: jhkim on December 03, 2021, 07:43:20 PM
Quote from: Ruprecht on December 03, 2021, 10:38:40 AM
I want to see one of these woke companies create a table to generate your characters (or NPC) gender randomly. That would be super-entertaining.
In my experience, neither old-school nor new-school gamers like generating character gender randomly. There's probably a small minority who enjoy it. I used to generate my HarnMaster characters that way, but I rarely did it in other games.
I've NEVER met an old-school gamer who prefers to spend 4 hours doing meticulous minmaxing with a point-buy system rather than 2 minutes rolling six stats and some random tables. Not a fucking one.
This is quite obviously a classic case of a "no TRUE old school gamer" fallacy.
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 05, 2021, 01:51:57 PM
Quote from: jhkim on December 03, 2021, 07:43:20 PM
Quote from: Ruprecht on December 03, 2021, 10:38:40 AM
I want to see one of these woke companies create a table to generate your characters (or NPC) gender randomly. That would be super-entertaining.
In my experience, neither old-school nor new-school gamers like generating character gender randomly. There's probably a small minority who enjoy it. I used to generate my HarnMaster characters that way, but I rarely did it in other games.
I've NEVER met an old-school gamer who prefers to spend 4 hours doing meticulous minmaxing with a point-buy system rather than 2 minutes rolling six stats and some random tables. Not a fucking one.
Especially when you can go online and pull perfectly good minmaxed builds for various classes in five minutes.
Quote from: HappyDaze on December 05, 2021, 03:37:17 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 05, 2021, 01:51:57 PM
Quote from: jhkim on December 03, 2021, 07:43:20 PM
Quote from: Ruprecht on December 03, 2021, 10:38:40 AM
I want to see one of these woke companies create a table to generate your characters (or NPC) gender randomly. That would be super-entertaining.
In my experience, neither old-school nor new-school gamers like generating character gender randomly. There's probably a small minority who enjoy it. I used to generate my HarnMaster characters that way, but I rarely did it in other games.
I've NEVER met an old-school gamer who prefers to spend 4 hours doing meticulous minmaxing with a point-buy system rather than 2 minutes rolling six stats and some random tables. Not a fucking one.
This is quite obviously a classic case of a "no TRUE old school gamer" fallacy.
In my experience there is no such thing as an old school gamer, let alone a Scottish one.
Quote from: Ka'arl Sorcerer of Cha'alt on November 10, 2021, 04:25:39 AM
I just watched the video "Maw of the Mike" where they talk about DCCRPG becoming more inclusive by changing all pronouns to they in not just all future products but going back through the entire back catalog as well to make changes to be more inclusive.
They want to be less inclusive in their games and only be for leftists that's fine by me, my friends and I can move on to a different game.
Wind back the clock 30 years and White Wolf were doing this by referring to ST/PCs in the rule book as women. At least 50% at the time. And certain people whined.
The sort of person I'd be glad to be rid of is the sort of person who takes a little token change like this and turns it into a "sky is falling" scenario.
(People are awfully keen on socialism when their house burns down or their house gets broken into. Awfully keen on Leftist ideas when they want to drive on the freeway or have working streetlights. Fabulously keen on the Left when they have a standing army and don't have to raise their own army to protect their shit. But goodness, change a pronoun and they lose their shit.)
Quote from: Ruprecht on December 03, 2021, 10:38:40 AM
I want to see one of these woke companies create a table to generate your characters (or NPC) gender randomly. That would be super-entertaining.
I pretty much do that for my own PCs. I usually roll percentile: 01-49 male, 51-00 female. 50 one of the pronoun people <- this has yet to occur, but I imagine it will involve rolling again on a much more longer table.
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 05, 2021, 01:51:57 PMI've NEVER met an old-school gamer who prefers to spend 4 hours doing meticulous minmaxing with a point-buy system rather than 2 minutes rolling six stats and some random tables. Not a fucking one.
Yet old-school gamers will gladly spend 4 hours re-rolling their character until they get more than one 18.
Seriously though, no point-buy system short of Champions takes 4 hours. Point-buy is a perfectly ok for old-school games, and I'm a guy that has his players randomly roll their starting race and class (which, IMO, are the same thing).
Quote from: Pelorus on December 05, 2021, 06:16:24 PM
Quote from: Ka'arl Sorcerer of Cha'alt on November 10, 2021, 04:25:39 AM
I just watched the video "Maw of the Mike" where they talk about DCCRPG becoming more inclusive by changing all pronouns to they in not just all future products but going back through the entire back catalog as well to make changes to be more inclusive.
They want to be less inclusive in their games and only be for leftists that's fine by me, my friends and I can move on to a different game.
Wind back the clock 30 years and White Wolf were doing this by referring to ST/PCs in the rule book as women. At least 50% at the time. And certain people whined.
The sort of person I'd be glad to be rid of is the sort of person who takes a little token change like this and turns it into a "sky is falling" scenario.
(People are awfully keen on socialism when their house burns down or their house gets broken into. Awfully keen on Leftist ideas when they want to drive on the freeway or have working streetlights. Fabulously keen on the Left when they have a standing army and don't have to raise their own army to protect their shit. But goodness, change a pronoun and they lose their shit.)
That reminds me about the story of the Barbarians attacking Constantinople and the citizens arguing amongst themselves what pronouns to call them.
I mean just because you are going to be killed and your wife and children raped and sold into slavery does not mean that you have to be rude, does it?
Quote from: Pelorus on December 05, 2021, 06:16:24 PM
Quote from: Ka'arl Sorcerer of Cha'alt on November 10, 2021, 04:25:39 AM
I just watched the video "Maw of the Mike" where they talk about DCCRPG becoming more inclusive by changing all pronouns to they in not just all future products but going back through the entire back catalog as well to make changes to be more inclusive.
They want to be less inclusive in their games and only be for leftists that's fine by me, my friends and I can move on to a different game.
Wind back the clock 30 years and White Wolf were doing this by referring to ST/PCs in the rule book as women. At least 50% at the time. And certain people whined.
The sort of person I'd be glad to be rid of is the sort of person who takes a little token change like this and turns it into a "sky is falling" scenario.
(People are awfully keen on socialism when their house burns down or their house gets broken into. Awfully keen on Leftist ideas when they want to drive on the freeway or have working streetlights. Fabulously keen on the Left when they have a standing army and don't have to raise their own army to protect their shit. But goodness, change a pronoun and they lose their shit.)
Bolding mine
Go learn history you ignorant twat.
The Romans had Firefighters, police, roads, street lights and an army, the last one they used to invade and conquer not only Europe but also parts of Africa and the Middle East.
And I'm sure we could find evidence of firefighters, police even before 27A.C.
But you could make an argument about street lights being a more recent invention: "In 1588 the Parisian Parliament decreed that a torch be installed and lit at each intersection, and in 1594 the police changed this to lanterns."
"The history of socialism has its origins in the 1789 French Revolution and the changes which it brought, although it has precedents in earlier movements and ideas. The Communist Manifesto was written by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels in 1847-48 just before the Revolutions of 1848 swept Europe, expressing what they termed scientific socialism"
Can you point to a single socialist regime before the murderous regime of the French Revolution? And support your claim with facts?
No wonder you're a commie, you are utterly ignorant. Welcome to the ignore list.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 05, 2021, 07:17:04 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 05, 2021, 01:51:57 PMI've NEVER met an old-school gamer who prefers to spend 4 hours doing meticulous minmaxing with a point-buy system rather than 2 minutes rolling six stats and some random tables. Not a fucking one.
Yet old-school gamers will gladly spend 4 hours re-rolling their character until they get more than one 18.
Really old school gamers had the Dungeon Master roll their characters up:
Quote from: Men and MagicPrior to the character selection by players it is necessary for the referee to roll
three six-sided dice in order to rate each as to various abilities, and thus aid them
in selecting a role.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 05, 2021, 07:17:04 PM
Seriously though, no point-buy system short of Champions takes 4 hours. Point-buy is a perfectly ok for old-school games, and I'm a guy that has his players randomly roll their starting race and class (which, IMO, are the same thing).
Most in our group has been playing since the 70's and we also enjoy point buy systems.
However none of us are really "min-maxers", I think our group is more into playing character concepts (not FTW).
Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 05, 2021, 07:17:04 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 05, 2021, 01:51:57 PMI've NEVER met an old-school gamer who prefers to spend 4 hours doing meticulous minmaxing with a point-buy system rather than 2 minutes rolling six stats and some random tables. Not a fucking one.
Yet old-school gamers will gladly spend 4 hours re-rolling their character until they get more than one 18.
Seriously though, no point-buy system short of Champions takes 4 hours. Point-buy is a perfectly ok for old-school games, and I'm a guy that has his players randomly roll their starting race and class (which, IMO, are the same thing).
Seriously. WEG Star Wars, The Fantasy Trip, etc. There are plenty of "point buy" systems that allow you to make a character in minutes, or at least faster than a classic "random roll" system like, say, Traveller.
Quote from: Pelorus on December 05, 2021, 06:16:24 PM
Quote from: Ka'arl Sorcerer of Cha'alt on November 10, 2021, 04:25:39 AM
I just watched the video "Maw of the Mike" where they talk about DCCRPG becoming more inclusive by changing all pronouns to they in not just all future products but going back through the entire back catalog as well to make changes to be more inclusive.
They want to be less inclusive in their games and only be for leftists that's fine by me, my friends and I can move on to a different game.
Wind back the clock 30 years and White Wolf were doing this by referring to ST/PCs in the rule book as women. At least 50% at the time. And certain people whined.
The sort of person I'd be glad to be rid of is the sort of person who takes a little token change like this and turns it into a "sky is falling" scenario.
(People are awfully keen on socialism when their house burns down or their house gets broken into. Awfully keen on Leftist ideas when they want to drive on the freeway or have working streetlights. Fabulously keen on the Left when they have a standing army and don't have to raise their own army to protect their shit. But goodness, change a pronoun and they lose their shit.)
Your conflation of issues doesn't lend any credibility to your assertions. Moreover, none of the things you list are inherently socialist. Try harder.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on December 05, 2021, 08:27:03 PM
Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 05, 2021, 07:17:04 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 05, 2021, 01:51:57 PMI've NEVER met an old-school gamer who prefers to spend 4 hours doing meticulous minmaxing with a point-buy system rather than 2 minutes rolling six stats and some random tables. Not a fucking one.
Yet old-school gamers will gladly spend 4 hours re-rolling their character until they get more than one 18.
Seriously though, no point-buy system short of Champions takes 4 hours. Point-buy is a perfectly ok for old-school games, and I'm a guy that has his players randomly roll their starting race and class (which, IMO, are the same thing).
Seriously. WEG Star Wars, The Fantasy Trip, etc. There are plenty of "point buy" systems that allow you to make a character in minutes, or at least faster than a classic "random roll" system like, say, Traveller.
Point buy in 5e doesn't take any longer than rolling the dice, and arranging the standard array might even be faster.
Quote from: HappyDaze on December 05, 2021, 10:18:09 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on December 05, 2021, 08:27:03 PM
Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 05, 2021, 07:17:04 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 05, 2021, 01:51:57 PMI've NEVER met an old-school gamer who prefers to spend 4 hours doing meticulous minmaxing with a point-buy system rather than 2 minutes rolling six stats and some random tables. Not a fucking one.
Yet old-school gamers will gladly spend 4 hours re-rolling their character until they get more than one 18.
Seriously though, no point-buy system short of Champions takes 4 hours. Point-buy is a perfectly ok for old-school games, and I'm a guy that has his players randomly roll their starting race and class (which, IMO, are the same thing).
Seriously. WEG Star Wars, The Fantasy Trip, etc. There are plenty of "point buy" systems that allow you to make a character in minutes, or at least faster than a classic "random roll" system like, say, Traveller.
Point buy in 5e doesn't take any longer than rolling the dice, and arranging the standard array might even be faster.
Who was the one that said Old School gamers will spend 4 hours re rolling their stats to get more than one with 18? This is stupid on so many levels.
Traveller, seriously, Traveller, fucking Traveller... The game where Chargen is it's own mini game is being used as an example of rolling your character.
This is as stupid as using Champions to generalize all point buy systems.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 05, 2021, 07:17:04 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 05, 2021, 01:51:57 PMI've NEVER met an old-school gamer who prefers to spend 4 hours doing meticulous minmaxing with a point-buy system rather than 2 minutes rolling six stats and some random tables. Not a fucking one.
Yet old-school gamers will gladly spend 4 hours re-rolling their character until they get more than one 18.
Seriously though, no point-buy system short of Champions takes 4 hours. Point-buy is a perfectly ok for old-school games, and I'm a guy that has his players randomly roll their starting race and class (which, IMO, are the same thing).
Didn't have to. AD&D was not a 3d6 roll-in-order game. All the rolling methods were located in the DMG and I think it STARTED with rolling 3d6 six times a dozen times and pick the best one. I think the 4d6 drop lowest was one as well but there were a lot of oddball ones.
I think in the rules it talked about every PC needed two 15+ scores.
I was very surprised when I went back and reread AD&D. My mental facts were WAY off.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 05, 2021, 08:09:18 PM
Go learn history you ignorant twat.
The Romans had Firefighters, police, roads, street lights and an army, the last one they used to invade and conquer not only Europe but also parts of Africa and the Middle East.
And I'm sure we could find evidence of firefighters, police even before 27A.C.
But you could make an argument about street lights being a more recent invention: "In 1588 the Parisian Parliament decreed that a torch be installed and lit at each intersection, and in 1594 the police changed this to lanterns."
"The history of socialism has its origins in the 1789 French Revolution and the changes which it brought, although it has precedents in earlier movements and ideas. The Communist Manifesto was written by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels in 1847-48 just before the Revolutions of 1848 swept Europe, expressing what they termed scientific socialism"
Can you point to a single socialist regime before the murderous regime of the French Revolution? And support your claim with facts?
No wonder you're a commie, you are utterly ignorant. Welcome to the ignore list.
Someone who gets confused by "Buffalo Wings" then.
Socialist ideas were around before Marx and Engels gave them the name. The paying of taxes for a standing army. Socialism. The establishment of roman roads using tribute to Caesar. Socialism.
duh.
Paying taxes is Socialism now?
Ok, Groomer.
Quote from: Pelorus on December 06, 2021, 06:42:16 PM
Someone who gets confused by "Buffalo Wings" then.
Socialist ideas were around before Marx and Engels gave them the name. The paying of taxes for a standing army. Socialism. The establishment of roman roads using tribute to Caesar. Socialism.
duh.
Look at this guy reaching back 1500+ years to call the Romans socialists...Hey look, the Romans drank wine and socialists do, too. Everyone's a socialist.
Back on topic. I really like the DCC ethos of rolling 3d6 down the line, rolling your profession, and rolling your birth augur, etc. I've had so much fun with random characters and I pretty much always chose their gender randomly, too. It's sad that they're starting to cave to the thought police. I bet it's 1 or two loud agitators and Mr. Goodperson not being principled enough to stand by the initial gender-neutral language. That or seeing $$$ in being able to sell more books so people can "fix" their libraries.
Quote from: rytrasmi on December 06, 2021, 07:03:20 PM
Quote from: Pelorus on December 06, 2021, 06:42:16 PM
Socialist ideas were around before Marx and Engels gave them the name. The paying of taxes for a standing army. Socialism. The establishment of roman roads using tribute to Caesar. Socialism.
duh.
Look at this guy reaching back 1500+ years to call the Romans socialists...Hey look, the Romans drank wine and socialists do, too. Everyone's a socialist.
Not my field, but it seems within reach to call the Cura Annonae socialism. That's the government-supplied free grain / bread that was provided for the poor people of Rome. It is the origin of the saying "bread and circuses" as a dole to satisfy the common people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cura_Annonae
At least, the government giving free bread to poor people seems pretty on-target for what is called socialism today.
Quote from: Ruprecht on December 03, 2021, 10:38:40 AM
I want to see one of these woke companies create a table to generate your characters (or NPC) gender randomly. That would be super-entertaining.
Heresy!
Now I get why attributes, being innate qualities, would be rolled randomly. Honestly, I never really understood why race and sex weren't also treated similarly in RPGs.
But by golly a WOKE company knows darn well that
gender IS ALWAYS A CHOICE!
(That said, they'll also be the first to admit that "random" is one of the available genders).
Quote from: jhkim on December 06, 2021, 07:13:23 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on December 06, 2021, 07:03:20 PM
Quote from: Pelorus on December 06, 2021, 06:42:16 PM
Socialist ideas were around before Marx and Engels gave them the name. The paying of taxes for a standing army. Socialism. The establishment of roman roads using tribute to Caesar. Socialism.
duh.
Look at this guy reaching back 1500+ years to call the Romans socialists...Hey look, the Romans drank wine and socialists do, too. Everyone's a socialist.
Not my field, but it seems within reach to call the Cura Annonae socialism. That's the government-supplied free grain / bread that was provided for the poor people of Rome. It is the origin of the saying "bread and circuses" as a dole to satisfy the common people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cura_Annonae
At least, the government giving free bread to poor people seems pretty on-target for what is called socialism today.
Dude, you're wrong but let's keep this on topic.
Fuck DCC, fuck all the "respect my pronouns bullies and those who serve as human shields to them.
We want to play elf games, to have fun, to enjoy some escapism. If you want to inject your ideology then my wallet is closed.
duplicate
Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 06, 2021, 07:56:42 PM
We want to play elf games, to have fun, to enjoy some escapism. If you want to inject your ideology and it disagrees with my fears then my wallet is closed.
Fixed that for you.
Which isn't a problem. No-one expects you to buy Reichstar and love every page. but to have a mini fit saying that alms for the poor isn't socialism because Karl Marx hadn't invented the term yet is pathetic.
I'm not buying japanese magic girl RPGs because I'm not interested in that shit. I don't need to make up some excuse that Japan has an emperor and I don't like imperialism so....
Quote from: Pelorus on December 07, 2021, 04:44:32 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 06, 2021, 07:56:42 PM
We want to play elf games, to have fun, to enjoy some escapism. If you want to inject your ideology and it disagrees with my fears then my wallet is closed.
Fixed that for you.
Which isn't a problem. No-one expects you to buy Reichstar and love every page. but to have a mini fit saying that alms for the poor isn't socialism because Karl Marx hadn't invented the term yet is pathetic.
I'm not buying japanese magic girl RPGs because I'm not interested in that shit. I don't need to make up some excuse that Japan has an emperor and I don't like imperialism so....
Nice goalpost-shifting. You could get work prepping NFL stadiums. Let me explain it to you in terms of "principle" (you can look that word up later. We both know leftists don't have principles, only tactics).:
I don't spend my money on products made by people who hate me and want to see my prosperity and way of life destroyed. There is no way for me to know these things
unless the company itself (or its representatives) tell me that they do.. So, the only way DCC can end up on my do-not-buy list is for them to speak or act in a way that makes it clear that they support the woking of gaming. Retroactively changing pronouns is a waste of money, unless your purpose is to woke-signal to the forces of evil. Hence I will not buy their products. I have done nothing to create this situation. It's all on their actions and motivations (which they have been clear about).
Quote from: Ruprecht on December 03, 2021, 10:38:40 AM
I want to see one of these woke companies create a table to generate your characters (or NPC) gender randomly. That would be super-entertaining.
What would be the point? It would only be 50% male 50% female since all the other genders would fall under the "randomly generated mental illness" table.
Back on Topic. Such as it is.
Has DCC actually done anything yet or is it all still just crowing and no rowing?
Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 07, 2021, 06:54:41 AM
I don't spend my money on products made by people who hate me and want to see my prosperity and way of life destroyed. There is no way for me to know these things unless the company itself (or its representatives) tell me that they do.. So, the only way DCC can end up on my do-not-buy list is for them to speak or act in a way that makes it clear that they support the woking of gaming. Retroactively changing pronouns is a waste of money, unless your purpose is to woke-signal to the forces of evil. Hence I will not buy their products. I have done nothing to create this situation. It's all on their actions and motivations (which they have been clear about).
Totally fair enough.
I still think not buying something is a great prerogative. I think not buying something because of pronouns is infantile. But then I find the idea of "forces of evil" infantile.
I stopped buying WoD because the writing was shit and one of the writers was a rapist. It wasn't because they equalised their pronoun usage. But everyone has their break point.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 07, 2021, 06:54:41 AM
Quote from: Pelorus on December 07, 2021, 04:44:32 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 06, 2021, 07:56:42 PM
We want to play elf games, to have fun, to enjoy some escapism. If you want to inject your ideology and it disagrees with my fears then my wallet is closed.
Fixed that for you.
Which isn't a problem. No-one expects you to buy Reichstar and love every page. but to have a mini fit saying that alms for the poor isn't socialism because Karl Marx hadn't invented the term yet is pathetic.
I'm not buying japanese magic girl RPGs because I'm not interested in that shit. I don't need to make up some excuse that Japan has an emperor and I don't like imperialism so....
Nice goalpost-shifting. You could get work prepping NFL stadiums. Let me explain it to you in terms of "principle" (you can look that word up later. We both know leftists don't have principles, only tactics).:
I don't spend my money on products made by people who hate me and want to see my prosperity and way of life destroyed. There is no way for me to know these things unless the company itself (or its representatives) tell me that they do.. So, the only way DCC can end up on my do-not-buy list is for them to speak or act in a way that makes it clear that they support the woking of gaming. Retroactively changing pronouns is a waste of money, unless your purpose is to woke-signal to the forces of evil. Hence I will not buy their products. I have done nothing to create this situation. It's all on their actions and motivations (which they have been clear about).
Dude, you're arguing with an imbecile that thinks that socialists invented roads, streetlights, firefighters, police...
I'm betting his player rolled the attributes with a d20 and got 1 in INT and maybe 2 in WIS.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 07, 2021, 11:19:36 AM
Dude, you're arguing with an imbecile that thinks that socialists invented roads, streetlights, firefighters, police...
I'm betting his player rolled the attributes with a d20 and got 1 in INT and maybe 2 in WIS.
Jesus, I haven't seen a burn like that since....E.T.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 06, 2021, 07:56:42 PM
We want to play elf games, to have fun, to enjoy some escapism. If you want to inject your ideology then my wallet is closed.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 07, 2021, 06:54:41 AM
I don't spend my money on products made by people who hate me and want to see my prosperity and way of life destroyed.
Personally, I play games to have fun. I don't care about the politics of who writes the game or how they feel about me. I buy and play games based on whether I enjoy the game material. I do engage in activism to promote my causes through various activist groups and my church -- but how I game isn't part of my activism.
Quote from: jhkim on December 07, 2021, 01:21:22 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 06, 2021, 07:56:42 PM
We want to play elf games, to have fun, to enjoy some escapism. If you want to inject your ideology then my wallet is closed.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 07, 2021, 06:54:41 AM
I don't spend my money on products made by people who hate me and want to see my prosperity and way of life destroyed.
Personally, I play games to have fun. I don't care about the politics of who writes the game or how they feel about me. I buy and play games based on whether I enjoy the game material. I do engage in activism to promote my causes through various activist groups and my church -- but how I game isn't part of my activism.
That's all fine and dandy, now tell me, why do you think you're refuting what I said?
Would you enjoy a game that's really alt-right propaganda? I wouldn't, just like I wouldn't enjoy one that's Ctrl-Left (so all the left) propaganda, or Christian propaganda, or Libertarian propaganda.
And I'm a Christian and do agree a lot with Libertarian principles.
Also, then you would gladly ghive money to a company that's promoting that all Christians be put in concentration camps? What if it was anyone from "Asian" descent? Would you still give them money? Knowing it will be used to promote hatred against those people?
I wouldn't, not only because I regained my faith (I wouldn't have done so while I was an Atheist either) and I'm not from "Asian" descent (Unless you count the fact that Mongols raped all over the old world and I might have some Mongol in me).
So I wouldn't give money to people that hate you and want to hurt you just like I will not give money to people that hate me and want to hurt me.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 07, 2021, 01:37:58 PM
And I'm a Christian and do agree a lot with Libertarian principles.
That explains it. That's a complex juxtaposition of Jesus' teaching* and the fucking nonsense Libertarians believe.
*while he lived before Marx, I think it's safe to say Jesus was a socialist.
Quote from: Pelorus on December 07, 2021, 01:51:37 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 07, 2021, 01:37:58 PM
And I'm a Christian and do agree a lot with Libertarian principles.
That explains it. That's a complex juxtaposition of Jesus' teaching* and the fucking nonsense Libertarians believe.
*while he lived before Marx, I think it's safe to say Jesus was a socialist.
And to the surprise of no one, you just showed yourself as completely fucking retarded.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 07, 2021, 01:57:10 PM
And to the surprise of no one, you just showed yourself as completely fucking retarded.
Yeah 😏, I forgot that part of the gospel where Jesus said "Get what you can and fuck everyone else"
How can you be an adult in the 21st century and not know these things?
Quote from: Banjo Destructo on December 07, 2021, 09:46:03 AM
Quote from: Ruprecht on December 03, 2021, 10:38:40 AM
I want to see one of these woke companies create a table to generate your characters (or NPC) gender randomly. That would be super-entertaining.
What would be the point? It would only be 50% male 50% female since all the other genders would fall under the "randomly generated mental illness" table.
Not if a woke company made the list. If a woke company made the list they'd have to update their manual daily to keep up.
Quote from: Pelorus on December 07, 2021, 02:04:25 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 07, 2021, 01:57:10 PM
And to the surprise of no one, you just showed yourself as completely fucking retarded.
Yeah 😏, I forgot that part of the gospel where Jesus said "Get what you can and fuck everyone else"
How can you be an adult in the 21st century and not know these things?
There's nothing I can do to help you if you honest to God think that's what comprised capitalism.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 07, 2021, 02:16:28 PM
Quote from: Pelorus on December 07, 2021, 02:04:25 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 07, 2021, 01:57:10 PM
And to the surprise of no one, you just showed yourself as completely fucking retarded.
Yeah 😏, I forgot that part of the gospel where Jesus said "Get what you can and fuck everyone else"
How can you be an adult in the 21st century and not know these things?
There's nothing I can do to help you if you honest to God think that's what comprised capitalism.
Ghostmaker: You forget the famous sermon on the mountain where Jesus sent his goons to steal all the fish and bread needed to feed the people. It's why ALL socialist regimes have been deeply Christian dude.
Like I told someone already, you're arguing with a fucking imbecile. He's an NPC rolled by my GM, his INT is as low as possible without being brain dead, ditto his WIS and his CHA I bet they are all 3 or less.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 07, 2021, 02:16:28 PM
There's nothing I can do to help you if you honest to God think that's what comprised capitalism.
Who mentioned capitalism? I was referring to Christian Libertarians. An oxymoron.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 07, 2021, 02:27:06 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 07, 2021, 02:16:28 PM
Quote from: Pelorus on December 07, 2021, 02:04:25 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 07, 2021, 01:57:10 PM
And to the surprise of no one, you just showed yourself as completely fucking retarded.
Yeah 😏, I forgot that part of the gospel where Jesus said "Get what you can and fuck everyone else"
How can you be an adult in the 21st century and not know these things?
There's nothing I can do to help you if you honest to God think that's what comprised capitalism.
Ghostmaker: You forget the famous sermon on the mountain where Jesus sent his goons to steal all the fish and bread needed to feed the people. It's why ALL socialist regimes have been deeply Christian dude.
Like I told someone already, you're arguing with a fucking imbecile. He's an NPC rolled by my GM, his INT is as low as possible without being brain dead, ditto his WIS and his CHA I bet they are all 3 or less.
You know who was even more Socialist then Jesus?
Donald J Trump. The King of the Socialists
Quote from: Pelorus on December 07, 2021, 02:43:04 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 07, 2021, 02:16:28 PM
There's nothing I can do to help you if you honest to God think that's what comprised capitalism.
Who mentioned capitalism? I was referring to Christian Libertarians. An oxymoron.
Christian Libertarians is an oxymoron??? :o
Is English your second language or something?
Quote from: moonsweeper on December 07, 2021, 04:00:30 PM
Christian Libertarians is an oxymoron??? :o
Is English your second language or something?
Plainly you, nor any Libertarian, have ever actually read the words of Jesus. That would explain a lot.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 07, 2021, 01:37:58 PM
Also, then you would gladly ghive money to a company that's promoting that all Christians be put in concentration camps? What if it was anyone from "Asian" descent? Would you still give them money? Knowing it will be used to promote hatred against those people?
I wouldn't, not only because I regained my faith (I wouldn't have done so while I was an Atheist either) and I'm not from "Asian" descent (Unless you count the fact that Mongols raped all over the old world and I might have some Mongol in me).
So I wouldn't give money to people that hate you and want to hurt you just like I will not give money to people that hate me and want to hurt me.
Are you implying that the DCCRPG creators want to put either you or me into concentration camps? I don't see any evidence of that.
As far as violent statements, I've seen some leftist memes of "eat the rich" - but then, here on these forums, SHARK who has posted multiple times that he favors outright killing any communists with napalm. Unless I know of action that they're materially supporting violence, I take these as Internet shit talk.
Quote from: jhkim on December 07, 2021, 04:18:21 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 07, 2021, 01:37:58 PM
Also, then you would gladly ghive money to a company that's promoting that all Christians be put in concentration camps? What if it was anyone from "Asian" descent? Would you still give them money? Knowing it will be used to promote hatred against those people?
I wouldn't, not only because I regained my faith (I wouldn't have done so while I was an Atheist either) and I'm not from "Asian" descent (Unless you count the fact that Mongols raped all over the old world and I might have some Mongol in me).
So I wouldn't give money to people that hate you and want to hurt you just like I will not give money to people that hate me and want to hurt me.
Are you implying that the DCCRPG creators want to put either you or me into concentration camps? I don't see any evidence of that.
As far as violent statements, I've seen some leftist memes of "eat the rich" - but then, here on these forums, SHARK who has posted multiple times that he favors outright killing any communists with napalm. Unless I know of action that they're materially supporting violence, I take these as Internet shit talk.
So to you supporting those who make calls to exterminate a race is not supporting those who want to exterminate a race? Would need to search for it but Burn Loot Murder has made such calls. And the LGBTQWERTY lobby has made such calls also and also about a specific sexual orientation.
DCC has supported Burn Loot Murder, I looked the other way because it might have been just blindness. But this editing plus their convention rules have convinced me and many others they do support those whou would put me in concentration camps, for being a male, straight, huwhite and Christian.
But you do you.
Edited to add:Created a thread about BLM and genocide in pundit's forum, will not continue this particular argument here, but since that might not get approved anyone that wants the evidence can ask me and will send it in a private message.
Quote from: moonsweeper on December 07, 2021, 04:00:30 PM
Quote from: Pelorus on December 07, 2021, 02:43:04 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 07, 2021, 02:16:28 PM
There's nothing I can do to help you if you honest to God think that's what comprised capitalism.
Who mentioned capitalism? I was referring to Christian Libertarians. An oxymoron.
Christian Libertarians is an oxymoron??? :o
Is English your second language or something?
Let the moron bark, that' disccussion is not on topic, if he wants to get trounced on the bible he can open a thread in pundit's forum. I would gladdly spank his ignorant ass there.
Quote from: Shasarak on December 07, 2021, 03:04:10 PM
You know who was even more Socialist then Jesus?
Donald J Trump. The King of the Socialists
Leo Fender was a socialist and that's why he took all my filthy money and gave me these free guitars. #AllThingsArePossibleWithAntiLife
(https://i.imgur.com/WU5U5y2.png)
Quote from: Pelorus on December 07, 2021, 04:15:53 PM
Quote from: moonsweeper on December 07, 2021, 04:00:30 PM
Christian Libertarians is an oxymoron??? :o
Is English your second language or something?
Plainly you, nor any Libertarian, have ever actually read the words of Jesus. That would explain a lot.
Is there a Jesus RPG our, or is this just wildly off topic?
Quote from: HappyDaze on December 07, 2021, 07:14:56 PM
Quote from: Pelorus on December 07, 2021, 04:15:53 PM
Quote from: moonsweeper on December 07, 2021, 04:00:30 PM
Christian Libertarians is an oxymoron??? :o
Is English your second language or something?
Plainly you, nor any Libertarian, have ever actually read the words of Jesus. That would explain a lot.
Is there a Jesus RPG our, or is this just wildly off topic?
It better be either a Black Jesus RPG or a Buddy Jesus RPG.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 07, 2021, 04:36:36 PM
Quote from: jhkim on December 07, 2021, 04:18:21 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 07, 2021, 01:37:58 PM
Also, then you would gladly ghive money to a company that's promoting that all Christians be put in concentration camps? What if it was anyone from "Asian" descent? Would you still give them money? Knowing it will be used to promote hatred against those people?
I wouldn't, not only because I regained my faith (I wouldn't have done so while I was an Atheist either) and I'm not from "Asian" descent (Unless you count the fact that Mongols raped all over the old world and I might have some Mongol in me).
So I wouldn't give money to people that hate you and want to hurt you just like I will not give money to people that hate me and want to hurt me.
Are you implying that the DCCRPG creators want to put either you or me into concentration camps? I don't see any evidence of that.
As far as violent statements, I've seen some leftist memes of "eat the rich" - but then, here on these forums, SHARK who has posted multiple times that he favors outright killing any communists with napalm. Unless I know of action that they're materially supporting violence, I take these as Internet shit talk.
So to you supporting those who make calls to exterminate a race is not supporting those who want to exterminate a race? Would need to search for it but Burn Loot Murder has made such calls. And the LGBTQWERTY lobby has made such calls also and also about a specific sexual orientation.
I think this needs to go to Pundit's forum. If your thread gets picked up, I'll answer there.
As far as DCC RPG - I've never played and don't own it, but I have a cursory impression. My son played at a convention a three years ago, and I watched the game for a bit as I was picking him up. Also, I got a free DCCRPG module that I looked over as a convention prize. I'm not particularly drawn to it, but I'd be willing to give it a try.
Quote from: jhkim on December 07, 2021, 08:13:09 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 07, 2021, 04:36:36 PM
Quote from: jhkim on December 07, 2021, 04:18:21 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 07, 2021, 01:37:58 PM
Also, then you would gladly ghive money to a company that's promoting that all Christians be put in concentration camps? What if it was anyone from "Asian" descent? Would you still give them money? Knowing it will be used to promote hatred against those people?
I wouldn't, not only because I regained my faith (I wouldn't have done so while I was an Atheist either) and I'm not from "Asian" descent (Unless you count the fact that Mongols raped all over the old world and I might have some Mongol in me).
So I wouldn't give money to people that hate you and want to hurt you just like I will not give money to people that hate me and want to hurt me.
Are you implying that the DCCRPG creators want to put either you or me into concentration camps? I don't see any evidence of that.
As far as violent statements, I've seen some leftist memes of "eat the rich" - but then, here on these forums, SHARK who has posted multiple times that he favors outright killing any communists with napalm. Unless I know of action that they're materially supporting violence, I take these as Internet shit talk.
So to you supporting those who make calls to exterminate a race is not supporting those who want to exterminate a race? Would need to search for it but Burn Loot Murder has made such calls. And the LGBTQWERTY lobby has made such calls also and also about a specific sexual orientation.
I think this needs to go to Pundit's forum. If your thread gets picked up, I'll answer there.
As far as DCC RPG - I've never played and don't own it, but I have a cursory impression. My son played at a convention a three years ago, and I watched the game for a bit as I was picking him up. Also, I got a free DCCRPG module that I looked over as a convention prize. I'm not particularly drawn to it, but I'd be willing to give it a try.
Politics aside, if you like a game with a large amount of variability, I highly recommend DCC.
Quote from: jhkim on December 07, 2021, 08:13:09 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 07, 2021, 04:36:36 PM
Quote from: jhkim on December 07, 2021, 04:18:21 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 07, 2021, 01:37:58 PM
Also, then you would gladly ghive money to a company that's promoting that all Christians be put in concentration camps? What if it was anyone from "Asian" descent? Would you still give them money? Knowing it will be used to promote hatred against those people?
I wouldn't, not only because I regained my faith (I wouldn't have done so while I was an Atheist either) and I'm not from "Asian" descent (Unless you count the fact that Mongols raped all over the old world and I might have some Mongol in me).
So I wouldn't give money to people that hate you and want to hurt you just like I will not give money to people that hate me and want to hurt me.
Are you implying that the DCCRPG creators want to put either you or me into concentration camps? I don't see any evidence of that.
As far as violent statements, I've seen some leftist memes of "eat the rich" - but then, here on these forums, SHARK who has posted multiple times that he favors outright killing any communists with napalm. Unless I know of action that they're materially supporting violence, I take these as Internet shit talk.
So to you supporting those who make calls to exterminate a race is not supporting those who want to exterminate a race? Would need to search for it but Burn Loot Murder has made such calls. And the LGBTQWERTY lobby has made such calls also and also about a specific sexual orientation.
I think this needs to go to Pundit's forum. If your thread gets picked up, I'll answer there.
As far as DCC RPG - I've never played and don't own it, but I have a cursory impression. My son played at a convention a three years ago, and I watched the game for a bit as I was picking him up. Also, I got a free DCCRPG module that I looked over as a convention prize. I'm not particularly drawn to it, but I'd be willing to give it a try.
Yep, it needs to be there, which is why I created the thread. Hopefully it gets approved.
Quote from: HappyDaze on December 05, 2021, 03:37:17 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 05, 2021, 01:51:57 PM
Quote from: jhkim on December 03, 2021, 07:43:20 PM
Quote from: Ruprecht on December 03, 2021, 10:38:40 AM
I want to see one of these woke companies create a table to generate your characters (or NPC) gender randomly. That would be super-entertaining.
In my experience, neither old-school nor new-school gamers like generating character gender randomly. There's probably a small minority who enjoy it. I used to generate my HarnMaster characters that way, but I rarely did it in other games.
I've NEVER met an old-school gamer who prefers to spend 4 hours doing meticulous minmaxing with a point-buy system rather than 2 minutes rolling six stats and some random tables. Not a fucking one.
This is quite obviously a classic case of a "no TRUE old school gamer" fallacy.
If someone is an old-school gamer, you'd think they'd be supportive of one of the most fundamental tenets of old-school play.
Quote from: Ka'arl Sorcerer of Cha'alt on December 06, 2021, 05:29:11 PM
Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 05, 2021, 07:17:04 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 05, 2021, 01:51:57 PMI've NEVER met an old-school gamer who prefers to spend 4 hours doing meticulous minmaxing with a point-buy system rather than 2 minutes rolling six stats and some random tables. Not a fucking one.
Yet old-school gamers will gladly spend 4 hours re-rolling their character until they get more than one 18.
Seriously though, no point-buy system short of Champions takes 4 hours. Point-buy is a perfectly ok for old-school games, and I'm a guy that has his players randomly roll their starting race and class (which, IMO, are the same thing).
Didn't have to. AD&D was not a 3d6 roll-in-order game. All the rolling methods were located in the DMG and I think it STARTED with rolling 3d6 six times a dozen times and pick the best one. I think the 4d6 drop lowest was one as well but there were a lot of oddball ones.
I think in the rules it talked about every PC needed two 15+ scores.
I was very surprised when I went back and reread AD&D. My mental facts were WAY off.
The only three I ever saw anyone actually do in the REAL old-school days was 3d6-in-order, 3d6-assign-to-taste or 4d6-drop-lowest.
And in the OSR era, everyone I've seen who is a neo-old-school gamer is very insistent on 3d6-in-order.
Quote from: Pelorus on December 07, 2021, 04:44:32 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 06, 2021, 07:56:42 PM
We want to play elf games, to have fun, to enjoy some escapism. If you want to inject your ideology and it disagrees with my fears then my wallet is closed.
Fixed that for you.
Which isn't a problem. No-one expects you to buy Reichstar and love every page. but to have a mini fit saying that alms for the poor isn't socialism because Karl Marx hadn't invented the term yet is pathetic.
I'm not buying japanese magic girl RPGs because I'm not interested in that shit. I don't need to make up some excuse that Japan has an emperor and I don't like imperialism so....
This is off topic, so stop it, but for the record "alms for the poor" is only socialism if you're FORCED to give alms. See the difference?
QuoteI've NEVER met an old-school gamer who prefers to spend 4 hours doing meticulous minmaxing with a point-buy system rather than 2 minutes rolling six stats and some random tables. Not a fucking one.
Where do we put time-line for OS-gamer compared to non-OS?
QuoteIn my experience there is no such thing as an old school gamer, let alone a Scottish one.
Wait, so what about all those Scots playing Warhammer 1e as drunken dwarven troll slayers?
QuoteWould you enjoy a game that's really alt-right propaganda? I wouldn't, just like I wouldn't enjoy one that's Ctrl-Left (so all the left) propaganda, or Christian propaganda, or Libertarian propaganda.
And I'm a Christian and do agree a lot with Libertarian principles.
The answer is maybe.
Well I'm a Christian, far from libertarian, but I could certainly play game where some level of it is assumed.
But even more definitely I could play game from someone who is asshole, as long as game is not like all soaked in his asshole-juice... well that went gross, but I won't edit it. You get what I mean. Sure if someone is really bad seed, I may just info-anarchist his shit, but that does not mean game is bad. Even game that take specifically ideological edge does not have to be bad.
I mean let's say like your God vs Satan OSR game you're planning? Many atheists and so on, would consider sheer premise of this game to be ideological propaganda for Christianity.
And I'm like fine. Even better when game try to be really strong to be propaganda, but mechanics is fine, so I can take it's ideological premise upon its head
Quote(Unless you count the fact that Mongols raped all over the old world and I might have some Mongol in me).
Not even close Iberia.
[edit] I deleted all specifically political-religion talk.
QuoteThe only three I ever saw anyone actually do in the REAL old-school days was 3d6-in-order, 3d6-assign-to-taste or 4d6-drop-lowest.
And in the OSR era, everyone I've seen who is a neo-old-school gamer is very insistent on 3d6-in-order.
Well neoOSR people can be bit... neophytic I guess. Though I saw lot of different things talking to people, and some not-old-school things are pretty old.
Not to mention old-school soon gonna encompass also trad, because there is only so long you can claim gamestyle 40 years old is not old-school ;)
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 05, 2021, 01:51:57 PM
Quote from: jhkim on December 03, 2021, 07:43:20 PM
Quote from: Ruprecht on December 03, 2021, 10:38:40 AM
I want to see one of these woke companies create a table to generate your characters (or NPC) gender randomly. That would be super-entertaining.
In my experience, neither old-school nor new-school gamers like generating character gender randomly. There's probably a small minority who enjoy it. I used to generate my HarnMaster characters that way, but I rarely did it in other games.
I've NEVER met an old-school gamer who prefers to spend 4 hours doing meticulous minmaxing with a point-buy system rather than 2 minutes rolling six stats and some random tables. Not a fucking one.
Pundit: I think this was misreading my comment. Both Ruprecht and I were specifically talking about character
gender. We weren't talking about point-buy versus random-roll in general.
Even among gamers who random-roll their attributes, they still choose character gender and race.
Quote from: Wrath of God on December 08, 2021, 01:52:29 PM
QuoteI've NEVER met an old-school gamer who prefers to spend 4 hours doing meticulous minmaxing with a point-buy system rather than 2 minutes rolling six stats and some random tables. Not a fucking one.
Where do we put time-line for OS-gamer compared to non-OS?
QuoteIn my experience there is no such thing as an old school gamer, let alone a Scottish one.
Wait, so what about all those Scots playing Warhammer 1e as drunken dwarven troll slayers?
QuoteWould you enjoy a game that's really alt-right propaganda? I wouldn't, just like I wouldn't enjoy one that's Ctrl-Left (so all the left) propaganda, or Christian propaganda, or Libertarian propaganda.
And I'm a Christian and do agree a lot with Libertarian principles.
The answer is maybe.
Well I'm a Christian, far from libertarian, but I could certainly play game where some level of it is assumed.
But even more definitely I could play game from someone who is asshole, as long as game is not like all soaked in his asshole-juice... well that went gross, but I won't edit it. You get what I mean. Sure if someone is really bad seed, I may just info-anarchist his shit, but that does not mean game is bad. Even game that take specifically ideological edge does not have to be bad.
I mean let's say like your God vs Satan OSR game you're planning? Many atheists and so on, would consider sheer premise of this game to be ideological propaganda for Christianity.
And I'm like fine. Even better when game try to be really strong to be propaganda, but mechanics is fine, so I can take it's ideological premise upon its head
Quote(Unless you count the fact that Mongols raped all over the old world and I might have some Mongol in me).
Not even close Iberia.
[edit] I deleted all specifically political-religion talk.
QuoteThe only three I ever saw anyone actually do in the REAL old-school days was 3d6-in-order, 3d6-assign-to-taste or 4d6-drop-lowest.
And in the OSR era, everyone I've seen who is a neo-old-school gamer is very insistent on 3d6-in-order.
Well neoOSR people can be bit... neophytic I guess. Though I saw lot of different things talking to people, and some not-old-school things are pretty old.
Not to mention old-school soon gonna encompass also trad, because there is only so long you can claim gamestyle 40 years old is not old-school ;)
You're conflating setting with propaganda. Is vanilla D&D propaganda for polytheism? No, then why would my game be propaganada for Christianity?
You forget Spain was also conquered by the muslims, I do know I descend from muslims, the last Moorish king of la barca. And the middle east region WAS conquered by the mongols.
Quote from: jhkim on December 08, 2021, 05:42:58 PM
Even among gamers who random-roll their attributes, they still choose character gender and race.
The confusion was partially my fault, I included NPC in the original comment hoping to avoid this sort of confusion but I should have cut the PC generation part entirely.
Quote from: jhkim on December 08, 2021, 05:42:58 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 05, 2021, 01:51:57 PM
Quote from: jhkim on December 03, 2021, 07:43:20 PM
Quote from: Ruprecht on December 03, 2021, 10:38:40 AM
I want to see one of these woke companies create a table to generate your characters (or NPC) gender randomly. That would be super-entertaining.
In my experience, neither old-school nor new-school gamers like generating character gender randomly. There's probably a small minority who enjoy it. I used to generate my HarnMaster characters that way, but I rarely did it in other games.
I've NEVER met an old-school gamer who prefers to spend 4 hours doing meticulous minmaxing with a point-buy system rather than 2 minutes rolling six stats and some random tables. Not a fucking one.
Pundit: I think this was misreading my comment. Both Ruprecht and I were specifically talking about character gender. We weren't talking about point-buy versus random-roll in general.
Even among gamers who random-roll their attributes, they still choose character gender and race.
Oh, whoops. You're right, I misread the post. Sorry.
And no, I definitely haven't seen people choose gender randomly. And very rarely race (DCC and my Last Sun setting, for example).
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 08, 2021, 10:13:57 PM
And no, I definitely haven't seen people choose gender randomly. And very rarely race (DCC and my Last Sun setting, for example).
Is "gender" here being used as equivalent to "sex"? Rolling race and
sex randomly seems equivalent to rolling attributes randomly to me. I agree nearly no one does it.
For the Woke, this reflects the real-life disconnect created by demanding everyone can choose their own gender (
and sex for that matter), but race is immutable. You are allowed (encouraged?) to "identify" as biologically different than you are only along accepted axises.
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 07, 2021, 09:10:40 PMAnd in the OSR era, everyone I've seen who is a neo-old-school gamer is very insistent on 3d6-in-order.
There have been multiple people in this thread and in the other attribute one that are old school gamers but don't use 3d6-in-order. Do we not count for some reason?
Quote from: Zalman on December 09, 2021, 09:57:34 AMIs "gender" here being used as equivalent to "sex"? Rolling race and sex randomly seems equivalent to rolling attributes randomly to me. I agree nearly no one does it.
I wonder how many DMs insist that a character's sex (or gender if you prefer nu-speak) is the same as the player's sex. In my home games, I've never once had a player attempt to play a character of the opposite sex. I've been in online games where this happens and it is always a disaster.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 09, 2021, 11:19:16 AM
Quote from: Zalman on December 09, 2021, 09:57:34 AMIs "gender" here being used as equivalent to "sex"? Rolling race and sex randomly seems equivalent to rolling attributes randomly to me. I agree nearly no one does it.
I wonder how many DMs insist that a character's sex (or gender if you prefer nu-speak) is the same as the player's sex. In my home games, I've never once had a player attempt to play a character of the opposite sex. I've been in online games where this happens and it is always a disaster.
I have two players with one of their PCs being female. I also have a player with a PC (notionally male) that has the "Gender Bender" Mercurial Magic effect for one spell.
Gender bender. Casting the spell causes the wizard to temporarily transform into the opposite gender. This sex change remains in effect for one hour per level of the spell. Recasting the spell shifts the caster back into his original sex, but a failure on the spell check causes the wizard to remain as the shifted gender until a full 24 hours have passed.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 09, 2021, 11:19:16 AM
I wonder how many DMs insist that a character's sex (or gender if you prefer nu-speak) is the same as the player's sex. In my home games, I've never once had a player attempt to play a character of the opposite sex. I've been in online games where this happens and it is always a disaster.
The groups I play with don't seem to care much. Some always play male or female. Many, including myself, pick whichever they feel best suits the character, especially when randomly rolling a character. I am biased towards playing male characters because I'm male. The GM is role playing all kinds of unreal creatures, immortal fey beings, and monsters, so I can role play a female character why not?
How is it a disaster with online games?
Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 09, 2021, 11:16:50 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 07, 2021, 09:10:40 PMAnd in the OSR era, everyone I've seen who is a neo-old-school gamer is very insistent on 3d6-in-order.
There have been multiple people in this thread and in the other attribute one that are old school gamers but don't use 3d6-in-order. Do we not count for some reason?
My point is that the people who are into the OSR now but were never part of the original old-school are even MORE fundmentalist about things like character generation than the actual old-schoolers.
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 10, 2021, 01:10:38 PM
Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 09, 2021, 11:16:50 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 07, 2021, 09:10:40 PMAnd in the OSR era, everyone I've seen who is a neo-old-school gamer is very insistent on 3d6-in-order.
There have been multiple people in this thread and in the other attribute one that are old school gamers but don't use 3d6-in-order. Do we not count for some reason?
My point is that the people who are into the OSR now but were never part of the original old-school are even MORE fundmentalist about things like character generation than the actual old-schoolers.
Posers gonna pose.
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 10, 2021, 01:10:38 PM
Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 09, 2021, 11:16:50 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 07, 2021, 09:10:40 PMAnd in the OSR era, everyone I've seen who is a neo-old-school gamer is very insistent on 3d6-in-order.
There have been multiple people in this thread and in the other attribute one that are old school gamers but don't use 3d6-in-order. Do we not count for some reason?
My point is that the people who are into the OSR now but were never part of the original old-school are even MORE fundmentalist about things like character generation than the actual old-schoolers.
That will fade after their 3rd 11 strength fighter they get to play.
What I hate about feminists and special groups is that they never show themselves until the work is done.
It was guys, especially suburban white guys, who made dungeons and dragons a success. These people were made out to be freaking weirdos who hide in school basements waiting to kill people they thought were monsters, or at least geek losers- well, when dungeons and dragons was a thing in culture like video games that's when diversity wanted most of the pizza.
And they keep WINNING.
Quote from: oggsmash on December 10, 2021, 01:25:31 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 10, 2021, 01:10:38 PM
Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 09, 2021, 11:16:50 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 07, 2021, 09:10:40 PMAnd in the OSR era, everyone I've seen who is a neo-old-school gamer is very insistent on 3d6-in-order.
There have been multiple people in this thread and in the other attribute one that are old school gamers but don't use 3d6-in-order. Do we not count for some reason?
My point is that the people who are into the OSR now but were never part of the original old-school are even MORE fundmentalist about things like character generation than the actual old-schoolers.
That will fade after their 3rd 11 strength fighter they get to play.
So by the second session then?
My experience has really been the contrary. Players who have rolled sub-optimal stats end up being surprised that at worse, it doesn't much matter, and at best it lets them think of more character to give their PC.
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 11, 2021, 01:41:14 PM
My experience has really been the contrary. Players who have rolled sub-optimal stats end up being surprised that at worse, it doesn't much matter, and at best it lets them think of more character to give their PC.
That's the same argument (i.e., either doesn't matter or let's them think of more character to give them) some players have for putting their characters in wheelchairs. ;)
Quote from: HappyDaze on December 11, 2021, 02:09:09 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 11, 2021, 01:41:14 PM
My experience has really been the contrary. Players who have rolled sub-optimal stats end up being surprised that at worse, it doesn't much matter, and at best it lets them think of more character to give their PC.
That's the same argument (i.e., either doesn't matter or let's them think of more character to give them) some players have for putting their characters in wheelchairs. ;)
There's a difference between random rolls, character concepts (I mean, sometimes a wheelchair-bound character might be appropriate for some types of games), and Diversity Quotas.
The difference between an 11STR fighter and an 18STR fighter is a +3 to hit and damage, that's it. Makes some difference, obviously, at levels 1-3, becomes increasingly less important as you go on. An 11STR character isn't crippled, he's TYPICAL. An 18STR fighter is meant to be incredibly rare (unless you're being cheap with the character generation).
The biggest difference is that the thing that defines the 18STR fighter is already obvious, he's Strong-Man. But what defines your 11STR fighter?
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 11, 2021, 03:12:58 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on December 11, 2021, 02:09:09 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 11, 2021, 01:41:14 PM
My experience has really been the contrary. Players who have rolled sub-optimal stats end up being surprised that at worse, it doesn't much matter, and at best it lets them think of more character to give their PC.
That's the same argument (i.e., either doesn't matter or let's them think of more character to give them) some players have for putting their characters in wheelchairs. ;)
There's a difference between random rolls, character concepts (I mean, sometimes a wheelchair-bound character might be appropriate for some types of games), and Diversity Quotas.
The difference between an 11STR fighter and an 18STR fighter is a +3 to hit and damage, that's it. Makes some difference, obviously, at levels 1-3, becomes increasingly less important as you go on. An 11STR character isn't crippled, he's TYPICAL. An 18STR fighter is meant to be incredibly rare (unless you're being cheap with the character generation).
The biggest difference is that the thing that defines the 18STR fighter is already obvious, he's Strong-Man. But what defines your 11STR fighter?
Funny; that's why I've come to like the fact that certain iterations of D&D like Swords & Wizardry & White Box give across the board XP bonuses for high Charisma and sometimes Wisdom scores. So if you want to play that fighter with average strength or thief with a 10 Dex and have a cool concept for it, you're not necessarily shortchanged for the low prime requisite. Maybe that thief is a conman swindler type, hence the 16 Charisma....
Quote from: Persimmon on December 12, 2021, 09:53:11 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 11, 2021, 03:12:58 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on December 11, 2021, 02:09:09 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 11, 2021, 01:41:14 PM
My experience has really been the contrary. Players who have rolled sub-optimal stats end up being surprised that at worse, it doesn't much matter, and at best it lets them think of more character to give their PC.
That's the same argument (i.e., either doesn't matter or let's them think of more character to give them) some players have for putting their characters in wheelchairs. ;)
There's a difference between random rolls, character concepts (I mean, sometimes a wheelchair-bound character might be appropriate for some types of games), and Diversity Quotas.
The difference between an 11STR fighter and an 18STR fighter is a +3 to hit and damage, that's it. Makes some difference, obviously, at levels 1-3, becomes increasingly less important as you go on. An 11STR character isn't crippled, he's TYPICAL. An 18STR fighter is meant to be incredibly rare (unless you're being cheap with the character generation).
The biggest difference is that the thing that defines the 18STR fighter is already obvious, he's Strong-Man. But what defines your 11STR fighter?
Funny; that's why I've come to like the fact that certain iterations of D&D like Swords & Wizardry & White Box give across the board XP bonuses for high Charisma and sometimes Wisdom scores. So if you want to play that fighter with average strength or thief with a 10 Dex and have a cool concept for it, you're not necessarily shortchanged for the low prime requisite. Maybe that thief is a conman swindler type, hence the 16 Charisma....
Other games offer different paths to proficiency, such as attacks based on a different ability score (like the Finesse weapons of 5e) or just base attacks on combinations of attributes (like Rolemaster). I like these when they make in-game sense, but I dislike them when they are done just to be a gamey work-around for a dump stat.
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 11, 2021, 03:12:58 PM
The biggest difference is that the thing that defines the 18STR fighter is already obvious, he's Strong-Man. But what defines your 11STR fighter?
Being worse than an 18 STR fighter.
I can deal with the idea of a random roll take what you get game. But I don't find it very fun anymore. There's only so many ways you can dress up an 11 STR fighter until it gets tiresome.
If it came to that, I'd rather just rip stats and their bonuses out of the game altogether instead of rolling. Let's really role play and not fuck around with using at as an excuse for variance in the stat generation.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 12, 2021, 10:39:13 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 11, 2021, 03:12:58 PM
The biggest difference is that the thing that defines the 18STR fighter is already obvious, he's Strong-Man. But what defines your 11STR fighter?
Being worse than an 18 STR fighter.
I can deal with the idea of a random roll take what you get game. But I don't find it very fun anymore. There's only so many ways you can dress up an 11 STR fighter until it gets tiresome.
If it came to that, I'd rather just rip stats and their bonuses out of the game altogether instead of rolling. Let's really role play and not fuck around with using at as an excuse for variance in the stat generation.
It's not D&D, but I built a military sci-fi game that had no core stats; just starting skill levels assigned by your choice of Military Occupational Specialty that improved with use.
Were you an amazing pilot because of your lightning rookie reflexes or years of honing your craft? You can decide that for yourself. The starting skill level was the same regardless; you were good enough to have a starting military rank in that profession.
If not for things like spellcasting needing certain scores to cast higher level spells I'd think it'd be just as easy to just strip ability scores out entirely and use the base abilities of the classes and their levels.
Quote from: Persimmon on December 12, 2021, 09:53:11 AM
Funny; that's why I've come to like the fact that certain iterations of D&D like Swords & Wizardry & White Box give across the board XP bonuses for high Charisma and sometimes Wisdom scores. So if you want to play that fighter with average strength or thief with a 10 Dex and have a cool concept for it, you're not necessarily shortchanged for the low prime requisite. Maybe that thief is a conman swindler type, hence the 16 Charisma....
Yes in the white box D&D version the only difference between an STR 11 and STR 18 fighter is the STR 18 fighter got a 10% bonus to experience.
The to-hit and damage bonuses did not show up until the Greyhawk supplement. Even then the bonus for STR 18 was +2 to-hit +3 damage.
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 10, 2021, 01:10:38 PM
Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 09, 2021, 11:16:50 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 07, 2021, 09:10:40 PMAnd in the OSR era, everyone I've seen who is a neo-old-school gamer is very insistent on 3d6-in-order.
There have been multiple people in this thread and in the other attribute one that are old school gamers but don't use 3d6-in-order. Do we not count for some reason?
My point is that the people who are into the OSR now but were never part of the original old-school are even MORE fundmentalist about things like character generation than the actual old-schoolers.
Not just that, but Funramentalists that are fundamentally getting it wrong.
O and BX D&D both were 3d6 in order. But then you could shuffle points around within limits and at a cost.
Interestingly enough Star Frontiers had this as well in a way. Roll stats in order. Then could shuffle points around a little.
Quote from: Omega on December 13, 2021, 12:45:38 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 10, 2021, 01:10:38 PM
Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 09, 2021, 11:16:50 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 07, 2021, 09:10:40 PMAnd in the OSR era, everyone I've seen who is a neo-old-school gamer is very insistent on 3d6-in-order.
There have been multiple people in this thread and in the other attribute one that are old school gamers but don't use 3d6-in-order. Do we not count for some reason?
My point is that the people who are into the OSR now but were never part of the original old-school are even MORE fundmentalist about things like character generation than the actual old-schoolers.
Not just that, but Funramentalists that are fundamentally getting it wrong.
O and BX D&D both were 3d6 in order. But then you could shuffle points around within limits and at a cost.
Interestingly enough Star Frontiers had this as well in a way. Roll stats in order. Then could shuffle points around a little.
If I recall correctly, it was that you could drop scores by two to add one point elsewhere.
Once you got to the BX attribute scale that could be really useful if you were on the cusp of bonus (ex. dump two points from your 11 Int to change to bump that 15 Str by a point and your Int mod is unchanged, but you just added +1 to hit and damage).
It was situational, and not generally something where you'd want to just wholesale swap stats (1 for 2 adds up quickly), but it was definitely more flexible than just 3d6 in order.
Thats what makes it better than just a flat random gen. It gives the player a small amount of choice and possibly more options if say their stats leaned close to one class as you point out.
Part of why I like BX so much is its lack of hard emphasis on stats. You can get by just fine with even several bad rolls in alot of cases.
Quote from: Omega on December 13, 2021, 09:47:56 AM
Thats what makes it better than just a flat random gen. It gives the player a small amount of choice and possibly more options if say their stats leaned close to one class as you point out.
Part of why I like BX so much is its lack of hard emphasis on stats. You can get by just fine with even several bad rolls in alot of cases.
Quite true. BECMI gives few bonuses outside of the AC and to-hit/damage bumps (I think Wisdom gives bonuses to spell saves?).
Quote from: Persimmon on December 12, 2021, 09:53:11 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 11, 2021, 03:12:58 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on December 11, 2021, 02:09:09 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 11, 2021, 01:41:14 PM
My experience has really been the contrary. Players who have rolled sub-optimal stats end up being surprised that at worse, it doesn't much matter, and at best it lets them think of more character to give their PC.
That's the same argument (i.e., either doesn't matter or let's them think of more character to give them) some players have for putting their characters in wheelchairs. ;)
There's a difference between random rolls, character concepts (I mean, sometimes a wheelchair-bound character might be appropriate for some types of games), and Diversity Quotas.
The difference between an 11STR fighter and an 18STR fighter is a +3 to hit and damage, that's it. Makes some difference, obviously, at levels 1-3, becomes increasingly less important as you go on. An 11STR character isn't crippled, he's TYPICAL. An 18STR fighter is meant to be incredibly rare (unless you're being cheap with the character generation).
The biggest difference is that the thing that defines the 18STR fighter is already obvious, he's Strong-Man. But what defines your 11STR fighter?
Funny; that's why I've come to like the fact that certain iterations of D&D like Swords & Wizardry & White Box give across the board XP bonuses for high Charisma and sometimes Wisdom scores. So if you want to play that fighter with average strength or thief with a 10 Dex and have a cool concept for it, you're not necessarily shortchanged for the low prime requisite. Maybe that thief is a conman swindler type, hence the 16 Charisma....
In Lion & Dragon, Charisma modifies your base saving throw, and your results when rolling on Critical hit tables. Because charismatic people tend to be lucky.
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 14, 2021, 05:15:55 AM
Quote from: Persimmon on December 12, 2021, 09:53:11 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 11, 2021, 03:12:58 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on December 11, 2021, 02:09:09 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 11, 2021, 01:41:14 PM
My experience has really been the contrary. Players who have rolled sub-optimal stats end up being surprised that at worse, it doesn't much matter, and at best it lets them think of more character to give their PC.
That's the same argument (i.e., either doesn't matter or let's them think of more character to give them) some players have for putting their characters in wheelchairs. ;)
There's a difference between random rolls, character concepts (I mean, sometimes a wheelchair-bound character might be appropriate for some types of games), and Diversity Quotas.
The difference between an 11STR fighter and an 18STR fighter is a +3 to hit and damage, that's it. Makes some difference, obviously, at levels 1-3, becomes increasingly less important as you go on. An 11STR character isn't crippled, he's TYPICAL. An 18STR fighter is meant to be incredibly rare (unless you're being cheap with the character generation).
The biggest difference is that the thing that defines the 18STR fighter is already obvious, he's Strong-Man. But what defines your 11STR fighter?
Funny; that's why I've come to like the fact that certain iterations of D&D like Swords & Wizardry & White Box give across the board XP bonuses for high Charisma and sometimes Wisdom scores. So if you want to play that fighter with average strength or thief with a 10 Dex and have a cool concept for it, you're not necessarily shortchanged for the low prime requisite. Maybe that thief is a conman swindler type, hence the 16 Charisma....
In Lion & Dragon, Charisma modifies your base saving throw, and your results when rolling on Critical hit tables. Because charismatic people tend to be lucky.
Charisma can take one far in life. I don't like it being called a dump stat, by many. It has value.
QuoteYou're conflating setting with propaganda. Is vanilla D&D propaganda for polytheism? No, then why would my game be propaganada for Christianity?
Then I guess game when all magical Indians are pure and noble, and all wicked Europeans were wiped out by magical meteor is also just a setting :P
QuoteYou forget Spain was also conquered by the muslims, I do know I descend from muslims, the last Moorish king of la barca. And the middle east region WAS conquered by the mongols.
Aaaaa... no? Like Moors conquered most of Iberia in 711. Their forces were mostly mixture of Arabs with Berbers and other people they took along way. After Ummayad dynasty lost Middle East to
Abassids - their last prince fled to Cordoba, and estabilished Emirate here, later Caliphate. Later it was part of few subsequent Berber ruled Muslim Empires founded in Morocco, and finally after Reconquista re-took majority of Iberia, by independent Grenada (who of course was too weak to survive long after breaking with Morocco).
History of Iberian Muslims was though connected to West North African Berbers for all time.
Meanwhile Altaic people - Turks and Muslims basically never reached so far, even in times when Ottoman Turks ruled almost all Muslim-Dom their African domains ended in modern Algeria (and both Algier and Tripolis were semi-independent vassals, with Egypt being only province belonging by law to Empire itself . Seljuk Turks first Altaics to really do much mess in Semito-Aryan Muslim East, never conquered anything in Africa (modern Iraq was their central domain, and modern Israel closest place to Africa they conquered), Mongol Empire never reached even Holy Land, not to mention Africa - their Muslim provinces so called Il-Khanate was also centred in Iraq and Iran, and they conquered part of Anatolia.)
So no influx of Mongolian or Turkic DNA to Morocco or Muslim Iberia, no in any statistically visible numbers anyway.
QuoteBeing worse than an 18 STR fighter.
I can deal with the idea of a random roll take what you get game. But I don't find it very fun anymore. There's only so many ways you can dress up an 11 STR fighter until it gets tiresome.
See, that's why as big fan of random rollling, I'm also big on random rolls of background, family, history and so on. There's always something unique to find, if it's more than 3d6 six times in row, invent reason why you are mediocre.
QuoteIf not for things like spellcasting needing certain scores to cast higher level spells I'd think it'd be just as easy to just strip ability scores out entirely and use the base abilities of the classes and their levels.
You can strip this away as well, and assume that if you're good enough to become wizard, you gonna be good enough to cast 9th level spells on level 18.
QuoteIn Lion & Dragon, Charisma modifies your base saving throw, and your results when rolling on Critical hit tables. Because charismatic people tend to be lucky.
Do they? In midst of battle?
Quote from: Jam The MF on December 14, 2021, 05:47:11 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 14, 2021, 05:15:55 AM
Quote from: Persimmon on December 12, 2021, 09:53:11 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 11, 2021, 03:12:58 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on December 11, 2021, 02:09:09 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 11, 2021, 01:41:14 PM
My experience has really been the contrary. Players who have rolled sub-optimal stats end up being surprised that at worse, it doesn't much matter, and at best it lets them think of more character to give their PC.
That's the same argument (i.e., either doesn't matter or let's them think of more character to give them) some players have for putting their characters in wheelchairs. ;)
There's a difference between random rolls, character concepts (I mean, sometimes a wheelchair-bound character might be appropriate for some types of games), and Diversity Quotas.
The difference between an 11STR fighter and an 18STR fighter is a +3 to hit and damage, that's it. Makes some difference, obviously, at levels 1-3, becomes increasingly less important as you go on. An 11STR character isn't crippled, he's TYPICAL. An 18STR fighter is meant to be incredibly rare (unless you're being cheap with the character generation).
The biggest difference is that the thing that defines the 18STR fighter is already obvious, he's Strong-Man. But what defines your 11STR fighter?
Funny; that's why I've come to like the fact that certain iterations of D&D like Swords & Wizardry & White Box give across the board XP bonuses for high Charisma and sometimes Wisdom scores. So if you want to play that fighter with average strength or thief with a 10 Dex and have a cool concept for it, you're not necessarily shortchanged for the low prime requisite. Maybe that thief is a conman swindler type, hence the 16 Charisma....
In Lion & Dragon, Charisma modifies your base saving throw, and your results when rolling on Critical hit tables. Because charismatic people tend to be lucky.
Charisma can take one far in life. I don't like it being called a dump stat, by many. It has value.
Exactly, and I think that in Old-school D&D it's underused, which is why I made it a more useful stat.
I've been a huge fan of Mayfair Games' early 90s Demons line of products since I first bought them back when they were published. I recently decided to revisit the collection and found out there was one published supplement, a boxed set called "To Hell & Back," that I had never seen. I found a shrink-wrapped copy on ebay & had my wife buy it for me as an early Christmas present.
On the first page they have this Note on Language: "For the sake of convenience the male gender is used as a neuter term throughout this product. This does not imply any chauvinism on our part, it simply takes up less space and makes for much smoother reading."
That's really all you need.
Quote from: Persimmon on December 19, 2021, 03:24:41 PM
I've been a huge fan of Mayfair Games' early 90s Demons line of products since I first bought them back when they were published. I recently decided to revisit the collection and found out there was one published supplement, a boxed set called "To Hell & Back," that I had never seen. I found a shrink-wrapped copy on ebay & had my wife buy it for me as an early Christmas present.
On the first page they have this Note on Language: "For the sake of convenience the male gender is used as a neuter term throughout this product. This does not imply any chauvinism on our part, it simply takes up less space and makes for much smoother reading."
That's really all you need.
Why does anyone need or want to post a blurb about what pronouns are being used? I never understood the desire to call attention to it.
Quote from: Jason Coplen on December 19, 2021, 04:43:21 PM
Quote from: Persimmon on December 19, 2021, 03:24:41 PM
I've been a huge fan of Mayfair Games' early 90s Demons line of products since I first bought them back when they were published. I recently decided to revisit the collection and found out there was one published supplement, a boxed set called "To Hell & Back," that I had never seen. I found a shrink-wrapped copy on ebay & had my wife buy it for me as an early Christmas present.
On the first page they have this Note on Language: "For the sake of convenience the male gender is used as a neuter term throughout this product. This does not imply any chauvinism on our part, it simply takes up less space and makes for much smoother reading."
That's really all you need.
Why does anyone need or want to post a blurb about what pronouns are being used? I never understood the desire to call attention to it.
Immunization against accusations of sexism. Granted, it doesn't work, but that doesn't seem to be a requirement for immunizations anymore...
Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 19, 2021, 08:18:00 PM
Quote from: Jason Coplen on December 19, 2021, 04:43:21 PM
Quote from: Persimmon on December 19, 2021, 03:24:41 PM
I've been a huge fan of Mayfair Games' early 90s Demons line of products since I first bought them back when they were published. I recently decided to revisit the collection and found out there was one published supplement, a boxed set called "To Hell & Back," that I had never seen. I found a shrink-wrapped copy on ebay & had my wife buy it for me as an early Christmas present.
On the first page they have this Note on Language: "For the sake of convenience the male gender is used as a neuter term throughout this product. This does not imply any chauvinism on our part, it simply takes up less space and makes for much smoother reading."
That's really all you need.
Why does anyone need or want to post a blurb about what pronouns are being used? I never understood the desire to call attention to it.
Immunization against accusations of sexism. Granted, it doesn't work, but that doesn't seem to be a requirement for immunizations anymore...
I can see that. Personally I never paid any attention to it. Maybe that's just me. Although I do see it a helluva lot more nowadays than in the 1980s.
I don't know if Joe Wokeman's new target audience will appreciate the way he describes "menstruating persons" though.