Quote from: Ka'arl Sorcerer of Cha'alt on December 06, 2021, 05:29:11 PM

Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 05, 2021, 07:17:04 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 05, 2021, 01:51:57 PMI've NEVER met an old-school gamer who prefers to spend 4 hours doing meticulous minmaxing with a point-buy system rather than 2 minutes rolling six stats and some random tables. Not a fucking one.

Yet old-school gamers will gladly spend 4 hours re-rolling their character until they get more than one 18.

Seriously though, no point-buy system short of Champions takes 4 hours. Point-buy is a perfectly ok for old-school games, and I'm a guy that has his players randomly roll their starting race and class (which, IMO, are the same thing).

Didn't have to. AD&D was not a 3d6 roll-in-order game. All the rolling methods were located in the DMG and I think it STARTED with rolling 3d6 six times a dozen times and pick the best one. I think the 4d6 drop lowest was one as well but there were a lot of oddball ones.

I think in the rules it talked about every PC needed two 15+ scores.

I was very surprised when I went back and reread AD&D. My mental facts were WAY off.

The only three I ever saw anyone actually do in the REAL old-school days was 3d6-in-order, 3d6-assign-to-taste or 4d6-drop-lowest.

And in the OSR era, everyone I've seen who is a neo-old-school gamer is very insistent on 3d6-in-order.

Quote from: Pelorus on December 07, 2021, 04:44:32 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 06, 2021, 07:56:42 PM

We want to play elf games, to have fun, to enjoy some escapism. If you want to inject your ideology and it disagrees with my fears then my wallet is closed.

Fixed that for you.

Which isn't a problem. No-one expects you to buy Reichstar and love every page. but to have a mini fit saying that alms for the poor isn't socialism because Karl Marx hadn't invented the term yet is pathetic.

I'm not buying japanese magic girl RPGs because I'm not interested in that shit. I don't need to make up some excuse that Japan has an emperor and I don't like imperialism so....

This is off topic, so stop it, but for the record "alms for the poor" is only socialism if you're FORCED to give alms. See the difference?

QuoteI've NEVER met an old-school gamer who prefers to spend 4 hours doing meticulous minmaxing with a point-buy system rather than 2 minutes rolling six stats and some random tables. Not a fucking one.

Where do we put time-line for OS-gamer compared to non-OS?

QuoteIn my experience there is no such thing as an old school gamer, let alone a Scottish one.

Wait, so what about all those Scots playing Warhammer 1e as drunken dwarven troll slayers?

QuoteWould you enjoy a game that's really alt-right propaganda? I wouldn't, just like I wouldn't enjoy one that's Ctrl-Left (so all the left) propaganda, or Christian propaganda, or Libertarian propaganda.

And I'm a Christian and do agree a lot with Libertarian principles.

The answer is maybe.
Well I'm a Christian, far from libertarian, but I could certainly play game where some level of it is assumed.
But even more definitely I could play game from someone who is asshole, as long as game is not like all soaked in his asshole-juice... well that went gross, but I won't edit it. You get what I mean. Sure if someone is really bad seed, I may just info-anarchist his shit, but that does not mean game is bad. Even game that take specifically ideological edge does not have to be bad.
I mean let's say like your God vs Satan OSR game you're planning? Many atheists and so on, would consider sheer premise of this game to be ideological propaganda for Christianity.

And I'm like fine. Even better when game try to be really strong to be propaganda, but mechanics is fine, so I can take it's ideological premise upon its head

Quote(Unless you count the fact that Mongols raped all over the old world and I might have some Mongol in me).

Not even close Iberia.

[edit] I deleted all specifically political-religion talk.

QuoteThe only three I ever saw anyone actually do in the REAL old-school days was 3d6-in-order, 3d6-assign-to-taste or 4d6-drop-lowest.

And in the OSR era, everyone I've seen who is a neo-old-school gamer is very insistent on 3d6-in-order.

Well neoOSR people can be bit... neophytic I guess. Though I saw lot of different things talking to people, and some not-old-school things are pretty old.
Not to mention old-school soon gonna encompass also trad, because there is only so long you can claim gamestyle 40 years old is not old-school

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 05, 2021, 01:51:57 PM

Quote from: jhkim on December 03, 2021, 07:43:20 PM

Quote from: Ruprecht on December 03, 2021, 10:38:40 AM
I want to see one of these woke companies create a table to generate your characters (or NPC) gender randomly. That would be super-entertaining.

In my experience, neither old-school nor new-school gamers like generating character gender randomly. There's probably a small minority who enjoy it. I used to generate my HarnMaster characters that way, but I rarely did it in other games.

I've NEVER met an old-school gamer who prefers to spend 4 hours doing meticulous minmaxing with a point-buy system rather than 2 minutes rolling six stats and some random tables. Not a fucking one.

Pundit: I think this was misreading my comment. Both Ruprecht and I were specifically talking about character gender. We weren't talking about point-buy versus random-roll in general.

Even among gamers who random-roll their attributes, they still choose character gender and race.

Quote from: Wrath of God on December 08, 2021, 01:52:29 PM

QuoteI've NEVER met an old-school gamer who prefers to spend 4 hours doing meticulous minmaxing with a point-buy system rather than 2 minutes rolling six stats and some random tables. Not a fucking one.

Where do we put time-line for OS-gamer compared to non-OS?

QuoteIn my experience there is no such thing as an old school gamer, let alone a Scottish one.

Wait, so what about all those Scots playing Warhammer 1e as drunken dwarven troll slayers?

QuoteWould you enjoy a game that's really alt-right propaganda? I wouldn't, just like I wouldn't enjoy one that's Ctrl-Left (so all the left) propaganda, or Christian propaganda, or Libertarian propaganda.

And I'm a Christian and do agree a lot with Libertarian principles.

The answer is maybe.
Well I'm a Christian, far from libertarian, but I could certainly play game where some level of it is assumed.
But even more definitely I could play game from someone who is asshole, as long as game is not like all soaked in his asshole-juice... well that went gross, but I won't edit it. You get what I mean. Sure if someone is really bad seed, I may just info-anarchist his shit, but that does not mean game is bad. Even game that take specifically ideological edge does not have to be bad.
I mean let's say like your God vs Satan OSR game you're planning? Many atheists and so on, would consider sheer premise of this game to be ideological propaganda for Christianity.

And I'm like fine. Even better when game try to be really strong to be propaganda, but mechanics is fine, so I can take it's ideological premise upon its head

Quote(Unless you count the fact that Mongols raped all over the old world and I might have some Mongol in me).

Not even close Iberia.

[edit] I deleted all specifically political-religion talk.

QuoteThe only three I ever saw anyone actually do in the REAL old-school days was 3d6-in-order, 3d6-assign-to-taste or 4d6-drop-lowest.

And in the OSR era, everyone I've seen who is a neo-old-school gamer is very insistent on 3d6-in-order.

Well neoOSR people can be bit... neophytic I guess. Though I saw lot of different things talking to people, and some not-old-school things are pretty old.
Not to mention old-school soon gonna encompass also trad, because there is only so long you can claim gamestyle 40 years old is not old-school

You're conflating setting with propaganda. Is vanilla D&D propaganda for polytheism? No, then why would my game be propaganada for Christianity?

You forget Spain was also conquered by the muslims, I do know I descend from muslims, the last Moorish king of la barca. And the middle east region WAS conquered by the mongols.

Quote from: jhkim on December 08, 2021, 05:42:58 PM
Even among gamers who random-roll their attributes, they still choose character gender and race.

The confusion was partially my fault, I included NPC in the original comment hoping to avoid this sort of confusion but I should have cut the PC generation part entirely.

Quote from: jhkim on December 08, 2021, 05:42:58 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 05, 2021, 01:51:57 PM

Quote from: jhkim on December 03, 2021, 07:43:20 PM

Quote from: Ruprecht on December 03, 2021, 10:38:40 AM
I want to see one of these woke companies create a table to generate your characters (or NPC) gender randomly. That would be super-entertaining.

In my experience, neither old-school nor new-school gamers like generating character gender randomly. There's probably a small minority who enjoy it. I used to generate my HarnMaster characters that way, but I rarely did it in other games.

I've NEVER met an old-school gamer who prefers to spend 4 hours doing meticulous minmaxing with a point-buy system rather than 2 minutes rolling six stats and some random tables. Not a fucking one.

Pundit: I think this was misreading my comment. Both Ruprecht and I were specifically talking about character gender. We weren't talking about point-buy versus random-roll in general.

Even among gamers who random-roll their attributes, they still choose character gender and race.

Oh, whoops. You're right, I misread the post. Sorry.

And no, I definitely haven't seen people choose gender randomly. And very rarely race (DCC and my Last Sun setting, for example).

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 08, 2021, 10:13:57 PM
And no, I definitely haven't seen people choose gender randomly. And very rarely race (DCC and my Last Sun setting, for example).

Is "gender" here being used as equivalent to "sex"? Rolling race and sex randomly seems equivalent to rolling attributes randomly to me. I agree nearly no one does it.

For the Woke, this reflects the real-life disconnect created by demanding everyone can choose their own gender (and sex for that matter), but race is immutable. You are allowed (encouraged?) to "identify" as biologically different than you are only along accepted axises.

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 07, 2021, 09:10:40 PMAnd in the OSR era, everyone I've seen who is a neo-old-school gamer is very insistent on 3d6-in-order.

There have been multiple people in this thread and in the other attribute one that are old school gamers but don't use 3d6-in-order. Do we not count for some reason?

Quote from: Zalman on December 09, 2021, 09:57:34 AMIs "gender" here being used as equivalent to "sex"? Rolling race and sex randomly seems equivalent to rolling attributes randomly to me. I agree nearly no one does it.

I wonder how many DMs insist that a character's sex (or gender if you prefer nu-speak) is the same as the player's sex. In my home games, I've never once had a player attempt to play a character of the opposite sex. I've been in online games where this happens and it is always a disaster.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 09, 2021, 11:19:16 AM

Quote from: Zalman on December 09, 2021, 09:57:34 AMIs "gender" here being used as equivalent to "sex"? Rolling race and sex randomly seems equivalent to rolling attributes randomly to me. I agree nearly no one does it.

I wonder how many DMs insist that a character's sex (or gender if you prefer nu-speak) is the same as the player's sex. In my home games, I've never once had a player attempt to play a character of the opposite sex. I've been in online games where this happens and it is always a disaster.

I have two players with one of their PCs being female. I also have a player with a PC (notionally male) that has the "Gender Bender" Mercurial Magic effect for one spell.

Gender bender. Casting the spell causes the wizard to temporarily transform into the opposite gender. This sex change remains in effect for one hour per level of the spell. Recasting the spell shifts the caster back into his original sex, but a failure on the spell check causes the wizard to remain as the shifted gender until a full 24 hours have passed.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 09, 2021, 11:19:16 AM
I wonder how many DMs insist that a character's sex (or gender if you prefer nu-speak) is the same as the player's sex. In my home games, I've never once had a player attempt to play a character of the opposite sex. I've been in online games where this happens and it is always a disaster.

The groups I play with don't seem to care much. Some always play male or female. Many, including myself, pick whichever they feel best suits the character, especially when randomly rolling a character. I am biased towards playing male characters because I'm male. The GM is role playing all kinds of unreal creatures, immortal fey beings, and monsters, so I can role play a female character why not?

How is it a disaster with online games?

Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 09, 2021, 11:16:50 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 07, 2021, 09:10:40 PMAnd in the OSR era, everyone I've seen who is a neo-old-school gamer is very insistent on 3d6-in-order.

There have been multiple people in this thread and in the other attribute one that are old school gamers but don't use 3d6-in-order. Do we not count for some reason?

My point is that the people who are into the OSR now but were never part of the original old-school are even MORE fundmentalist about things like character generation than the actual old-schoolers.

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 10, 2021, 01:10:38 PM

Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 09, 2021, 11:16:50 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 07, 2021, 09:10:40 PMAnd in the OSR era, everyone I've seen who is a neo-old-school gamer is very insistent on 3d6-in-order.

There have been multiple people in this thread and in the other attribute one that are old school gamers but don't use 3d6-in-order. Do we not count for some reason?

My point is that the people who are into the OSR now but were never part of the original old-school are even MORE fundmentalist about things like character generation than the actual old-schoolers.

Posers gonna pose.

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 10, 2021, 01:10:38 PM

Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 09, 2021, 11:16:50 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 07, 2021, 09:10:40 PMAnd in the OSR era, everyone I've seen who is a neo-old-school gamer is very insistent on 3d6-in-order.

There have been multiple people in this thread and in the other attribute one that are old school gamers but don't use 3d6-in-order. Do we not count for some reason?

My point is that the people who are into the OSR now but were never part of the original old-school are even MORE fundmentalist about things like character generation than the actual old-schoolers.

   That will fade after their 3rd 11 strength fighter they get to play.