It was funny how they pointed out themselves in this same press announcement that their books were being printed in China and shipped over and will be way behind time-wise.

They care so much about humans they use the largest killer of humans on the planet to print their books!

Also, the same place where it's a crime to be the type of human being to want to call yourself They.

Quote from: Wrath of God on November 10, 2021, 08:28:11 AM

QuoteThey and them are plural pronouns - anyone who wants you use these words to refer to a single person is essentially stating "there is more than one of me." Having multiple personalities is a mental disorder, last I recall

I'm not English native speaker but I'm quite sure I've read using singular they as gender neutral/gender unknown is centuries old form in English, and is way older than any multiple-personality-disorder woke bullshit.

If using in the third person.  What these nuts want is for you to refer to them (see what I just did there?) using "they/them" in the first person.

Quote from: Wrath of God on November 10, 2021, 08:28:11 AM
I'm not English native speaker but I'm quite sure I've read using singular they as gender neutral/gender unknown is centuries old form in English, and is way older than any multiple-personality-disorder woke bullshit.

I am a native English speaker, and I promise that anyone who wrote this is as full of bullshit as DCC is.

"They" is plural in English. Anyone telling you otherwise is already playing the Woke game.

Quote from: Zalman on November 10, 2021, 08:55:21 AM

Quote from: Wrath of God on November 10, 2021, 08:28:11 AM
I'm not English native speaker but I'm quite sure I've read using singular they as gender neutral/gender unknown is centuries old form in English, and is way older than any multiple-personality-disorder woke bullshit.

I am a native English speaker, and I promise that anyone who wrote this is as full of bullshit as DCC is.

"They" is plural in English. Anyone telling you otherwise is already playing the Woke game.

That's funny, because so am I, and 'they' can be used as a generalized singular.

But why complain? If THEY want to be dehumanized, that's THEIR decision, right?

Quote from: Wrath of God on November 10, 2021, 08:28:11 AM

QuoteThey and them are plural pronouns - anyone who wants you use these words to refer to a single person is essentially stating "there is more than one of me." Having multiple personalities is a mental disorder, last I recall

I'm not English native speaker but I'm quite sure I've read using singular they as gender neutral/gender unknown is centuries old form in English, and is way older than any multiple-personality-disorder woke bullshit.

That's the argument that gets used. And it's fine if you live in centuries old england. But we don't. And they/them is currently used as a plural, and using it as a gender neutral term gets confusing fast.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 10, 2021, 08:59:18 AM

Quote from: Zalman on November 10, 2021, 08:55:21 AM

Quote from: Wrath of God on November 10, 2021, 08:28:11 AM
I'm not English native speaker but I'm quite sure I've read using singular they as gender neutral/gender unknown is centuries old form in English, and is way older than any multiple-personality-disorder woke bullshit.

I am a native English speaker, and I promise that anyone who wrote this is as full of bullshit as DCC is.

"They" is plural in English. Anyone telling you otherwise is already playing the Woke game.

That's funny, because so am I, and 'they' can be used as a generalized singular.

But why complain? If THEY want to be dehumanized, that's THEIR decision, right?

The generalized form means that singular example is representative of the general group.

You can argue semantically that's not the same as "plural", but it's also not even close to the non-generalized, individual form being discussed here.

I don't like woke-ness at all. And I think anyone who feels like they have a "non binary gender" or xe/xem/xer/zipper pronouns should be institutionalized and deprogrammed.  BUT!  I do think using "they/them"  when writing a book can make sense for writing examples of what would happen to explain how mechanics work if you are talking about generalized cases that apply to all characters of a certain class.  Like... "if a thief wants to attempt X, they would roll 1d20 and add their DEX modifier".   I will say it does bother me a little bit when I see explanations of character or class mechanics with female pronouns, and that is a personal failing of mine, so maybe it bothers some women to see male pronouns.   I don't have a problem with the gender neutral, if it is written to make sense as generalized plural for all characters of a certain race or class.   When used as a "non-binary" specific singular character then that is kinda creepy.

Quote from: Godsmonkey on November 10, 2021, 08:19:27 AM

Quote from: mightybrain on November 10, 2021, 07:57:09 AM
It calls to mind this passage in the Rules Cyclopedia

QuotePronoun Note
The male pronouns (he, him, his) are used throughout this book. We hope this won't be interpreted by anyone as an attempt to exclude females from the game or to imply their exclusion.
Centuries of use have made these pronouns neutral, and we feel their use provides for clear and concise written text.

I wonder if the editors realised at the time that this would be the first slippery step.

The male pronouns (he, him, his) have been used for centuries as neutral gender. If this gets your panties in a bunch, man up!

IMO, using "they" is a nothing burger in the larger view. It's the most gender neutral pronoun we have.

If they start using Xe or some crap, then I'd be concerned.

I'd prefer Xe to They. At least Xe is singular. They is not a singular word and people forcing it into our language to be a term for gender neutral shows the corruption happening to our language and society. It's also an insult ... You're not a he or a she, you're one of Them. There is no individuity there.

Quote from: Banjo Destructo on November 10, 2021, 09:12:51 AM
I don't like woke-ness at all. And I think anyone who feels like they have a "non binary gender" or xe/xem/xer/zipper pronouns should be institutionalized and deprogrammed.  BUT!  I do think using "they/them"  when writing a book can make sense for writing examples of what would happen to explain how mechanics work if you are talking about generalized cases that apply to all characters of a certain class.  Like... "if a thief wants to attempt X, they would roll 1d20 and add their DEX modifier".   I will say it does bother me a little bit when I see explanations of character or class mechanics with female pronouns, and that is a personal failing of mine, so maybe it bothers some women to see male pronouns.   I don't have a problem with the gender neutral, if it is written to make sense as generalized plural for all characters of a certain race or class.   When used as a "non-binary" specific singular character then that is kinda creepy.

If your example read "When thieves want to attempt X, they would roll 1d20 and add their DEX modifier" is how it would be grammatically correct. For your example to work, you'd have to replace they with he or she.

All of these examples of people forcing they as a gender could easily be rectified and made to make more sense with just a little bit of common sense and honest editing.

Quote from: Ka'arl Sorcerer of Cha'alt on November 10, 2021, 08:29:18 AM
It was funny how they pointed out themselves in this same press announcement that their books were being printed in China and shipped over and will be way behind time-wise.

They care so much about humans they use the largest killer of humans on the planet to print their books!

Also, the same place where it's a crime to be the type of human being to want to call yourself They.

Dammit. That's a shame. I won't be buying anything else from them. How do other publishers afford to print in the US, Germany, etc. (/sarcasm)? I just did a sampling of my shelf and many very good and reasonably priced books are printed in the free world.

The pronoun thing is ridiculous, too. The most elegant solution to this "problem" that I saw was a book that alternated between "he" and "she" in different sections. Change to "they" if you must, but don't go through your back catalog and cleanse things. Spend that energy finding a decent free-world printer.

Quote from: RebelSky on November 10, 2021, 10:15:05 AM

Quote from: Godsmonkey on November 10, 2021, 08:19:27 AM

Quote from: mightybrain on November 10, 2021, 07:57:09 AM
It calls to mind this passage in the Rules Cyclopedia

QuotePronoun Note
The male pronouns (he, him, his) are used throughout this book. We hope this won't be interpreted by anyone as an attempt to exclude females from the game or to imply their exclusion.
Centuries of use have made these pronouns neutral, and we feel their use provides for clear and concise written text.

I wonder if the editors realised at the time that this would be the first slippery step.

The male pronouns (he, him, his) have been used for centuries as neutral gender. If this gets your panties in a bunch, man up!

IMO, using "they" is a nothing burger in the larger view. It's the most gender neutral pronoun we have.

If they start using Xe or some crap, then I'd be concerned.

I'd prefer Xe to They. At least Xe is singular. They is not a singular word and people forcing it into our language to be a term for gender neutral shows the corruption happening to our language and society. It's also an insult ... You're not a he or a she, you're one of Them. There is no individuity there.

Quote from: mightybrain on November 10, 2021, 07:57:09 AM
It calls to mind this passage in the Rules Cyclopedia

QuotePronoun Note
The male pronouns (he, him, his) are used throughout this book. We hope this won't be interpreted by anyone as an attempt to exclude females from the game or to imply their exclusion.
Centuries of use have made these pronouns neutral, and we feel their use provides for clear and concise written text.

I wonder if the editors realised at the time that this would be the first slippery step.

The male pronouns (he, him, his) have been used for centuries as neutral gender. If this gets your panties in a bunch, man up!

Stealing this!

The idea that an OSR product would attempt to appeal to something directly opposed to their target market boggles my mind. Older been tend to be more conservative and they're usually the ones who play OSR. Unless I'm wrong in that regard, but I don't think I am.

That's like trying to market guns to Californians or pork to Muslims. Or beef to Hindus. Or Televisions to the Amish.

I could go on for a while but I think you get the point.

Quote from: PsyXypher on November 10, 2021, 11:00:03 AM
The idea that an OSR product would attempt to appeal to something directly opposed to their target market boggles my mind. Older been tend to be more conservative and they're usually the ones who play OSR. Unless I'm wrong in that regard, but I don't think I am.

That's like trying to market guns to Californians or pork to Muslims. Or beef to Hindus. Or Televisions to the Amish.

I could go on for a while but I think you get the point.

Remember they supported Burn Loot Murder too. This is the second red flag.

And I'm out!

Quote from: PsyXypher on November 10, 2021, 11:00:03 AM
The idea that an OSR product would attempt to appeal to something directly opposed to their target market boggles my mind.

It's not just an OSR game, it's a game that is trying to emulate the art, rules, and writing style of the 1980s. This change goes against the core aesthetic that the game is trying to get across.

The game is literally called "Classic".