Quote from: WarthurUh... you do realise that you can just play with unpainted minis, right?

And it looks horrible, in my opinion.  I'd rather use pawns at that point (which is what my group generally does for role-playing combats).

GW currently sells their Necromunda gangs at $40 for a box of 8 figures and other companies are selling a comparable number of pre-painted miniatures with rules and a die at half that price.  I find it difficult to believe that GW couldn't continue to sell Necromunda gangs, pre-painted and of acceptable quality and materials for repainting, at $40 a box or maybe a bit more while maintaining a quite healthy profit margin.

Quote from: BlackhandYOU are still thinking that you should have a higher power level.  You should not.

Defend your fucking postion.  Starting characters are ass suckers who can't even figure out how to work a bolt pistol competently. In fact, it would take at least a thousand (if not two or three thousand) xp as written to be able to use most of the 'common' weapons in the game.  And that is as true of the Guardsman as the Scum.  

Quote from: BlackhandIf you MUST have more power, just give everyone +10 to all rolls for Characteristics and VOILA FUCKING PRESTO you have a guardsman hero.  In Warhammer, +1 to a stat is a BIG FUCKING DEAL, and that's all a Commissar gets in most cases.  Since you can't do math, +1 in Warhammer = +10 in Dark Heresy.  Making a career path isn't as hard as you might think, but then I can tell your brain is hurting from the strain it took to write all those fiddly little words in your post.

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See above: power in this game comes from skills and ability, and starting characters are barely competent to tie their fucking shoes. A +10 to the roll is a bandade on a geyser at that point.

Quote from: Warthur3: Bolt Thrower are awesome.

Quoted for awesome truth. \m/

:haw:

To the best of my recolection GW had its own record company for a little while in the late eighties.  They included a Bolt Thrower flexi disk in White Dwarf once that was supposedly very bad.

My collection doesn't go back that far anymore, but I'll see if I can find it in White Dwarf 300's retrospective.

You sure that wasn't Sabbat? They apparently did a song for White Dwarf once.

And as far as I'm aware Bolt Thrower were never signed to GW's record company - they were on Earache Records. The bands which were on that label - D-Rok, Wraith and the like - basically sank like stones, as far as I can tell.

Could do, I'd gone into my anything but GW and T$R phase at that point.  The only name I could recollect was Bolt Thrower.

Quote from: David JohansenI thought the Bolt Thrower albums were the most reviled thing GW ever did.

Bolt Thrower fucking RAWQ.  I have all their albums.  They went from Vinyl Solution to Earache.  GW didn't really have much to do with them since only AC liked metal, apparently.  However, even recent albums have GW artwork.

Most GW fans hate them, but most of them listen to Coldplay.  All non-GW metalheads I know bow down to that which is Bolt Thrower, and you should too David Johansen.

@ John Morrow - They will NEVER do prepaints.  They MUST NEVER do prepaints.  You're wrong, because we want cool people at the table - however we do NOT WANT PREPAINTS.  You must be a hobbyist to understand this.  If this happened there would be rioting in Nottingham, bitches!!  NEVER!

@ Spike - Here's my defense - It's equal to the game it's based on.  You know that Dark Heresy derived from Warhammer 40,000 right?  If you actually played Dark Heresy there are a ton of modifiers to attack, so many that it's a little easy to hit people...+10? What about the +30 that is easy to get at least once every combat.  MY FUCKING POSITION?!  Why don't you get someone to run the game who actually can.  

Oh, and I can tell you're a munchkin player.  Why don't you just have your players add +10 to all starting characteristics?  The progression from Warhammer 40,000 is maybe +1 or +2, which translates to +10 or +20 in Dark Heresy.  This is the same system that Warhammer Fantasy Battle / Roleplay uses and this is what we (I refer to we who know what the fuck we're talking about) expected.  Room to advance.

Quote from: Blackhand@ John Morrow - They will NEVER do prepaints.  They MUST NEVER do prepaints.  You're wrong, because we want cool people at the table - however we do NOT WANT PREPAINTS.  You must be a hobbyist to understand this.  If this happened
there would be rioting in Nottingham, bitches!!  NEVER!

Are pre-paints really worse than people playing with unpainted or primed figures, a practice that you, yourself, mentioned and another person mentioned as a solution for those who don't have time to paint?  Yes, I understand why the hobbyists don't like pre-painted miniatures, which is why my suggestion (A) said that the army battle games should be left as-is with unpainted miniatures and the pre-painted miniatures suggestion was for the skirmish games (Necromunda and Mordheim) only (which, based on sales and the attention that GW gives them, are not being supported by the hobbyists the same way that the support the main battle games are, anyway), (B) suggested that there should be some miniatures that should still only come unpainted to reward the hobbyists who do want to play those games, and (C) stressed repainting the pre-painted miniatures (repainting figures is something that hobbyists already do).  If they don't do this, then GW's market will only ever be the hardcore hobbyist or kid who has ton's of free time on their hands to to paint toy soldiers.  I understand that the hobbyists want to feel special for the extra work that they put into the hobby and my suggestion specifically took that into account.  If GW wants to grow their fan base, they need to make the hobby accessible to people with less free time than the hardcore hobbyist and since the purpose of using painted miniatures is that they look cool, using pre-painted miniatures is the way to do that.  And if it's really necessary, GW could still demand that tournament and league play be done with repainted or custom miniatures, not pre-paints.  The casual player won't care but it might give some casual players the incentive to become a hobbyist.  And the bottom line is that it would sell more miniatures for GW which is, as you pointed out, the goal of the company.  GW's officers and shareholders probably don't want to limit their market to the "cool people" you talk about.

By the way, I seem to remember that the hardcore hobbyists were shocked, SHOCKED!, when GW first started selling plastic miniatures instead of metal.  And let's not forget that Necromunda and Mordheim included plastic miniatures and preprinted cardboard scenery in order to make it more accessible to beginners as a place to start in the hobby.

(Some edits since the original posting throughout.)

It would seriously dilute the hobby.

It would deflate my elitist demeanor.  I would no longer gloat in the superiority of my geek-hobby compared to RPGr's and TCGr's.  Oh and the Prepainted Miniature gamers.

It's just a different thing man.  

The time spent meticulously crafting your army serves a purpose you might not understand.  You put a bit of your soul into it.  After that, it's yours.  These are your soldiers.  And they will fight to the death for you...or at least until it looks like you're going to lose.

It's not the same thing with prepaints.  They are soulless.

Even unpainted minis have soul, because you built them how you wanted them.

For those of us who truly love the hobby and the game, no soul is the death of our game.

We will fight tooth and nail to prevent prepaints in a GW game, but I'll be honest that I'm not worried about this at all.

GW will never make prepaints as that completely invalidates the core of their business.  They aren't selling prepainted models.  They aren't even selling a game, which is why they really give less a fuck about Dark Heresy.

They sell a hobby.  That's the plastic men, the paints, the tools to cut the men and file down the mold lines, putty to sculpt your own...these are the heart of our hobby, not the game.  That's why edition does not matter.  Rogue Trader was 20 years ago.  2nd Edition was 15 years ago.  It doesn't matter.

Oh and prepaints all look the same - like dogshit.

Quote from: BlackhandGW will never make prepaints as that completely invalidates the core of their business.  They aren't selling prepainted models.  They aren't even selling a game, which is why they really give less a fuck about Dark Heresy.

They sell a hobby.  That's the plastic men, the paints, the tools to cut the men and file down the mold lines, putty to sculpt your own...these are the heart of our hobby, not the game.  That's why edition does not matter.  Rogue Trader was 20 years ago.  2nd Edition was 15 years ago.  It doesn't matter.

Since "selling the hobby" seems to be bleeding money for them right now, maybe its time they made a change, no?

Or are they adopting the Kevin Seimbeida school of management - "Party like it's 1985!"

Quote from: jgantsSince "selling the hobby" seems to be bleeding money for them right now, maybe its time they made a change, no?

Or are they adopting the Kevin Seimbeida school of management - "Party like it's 1985!"

They closed BI because it really did cost more than it was making.  Even with the sellouts.  Strange no?

GW is making changes right now.  In fact, The Warseers bitch constantly about the constant changes.  A new CEO has been named and the whole thing is changing.

It's just that it doesn't really include roleplayers.  It's a wargames company.

Quote from: BlackhandThey closed BI because it really did cost more than it was making.  Even with the sellouts.  Strange no?

do you have any proof of this particular claim?

RPGPundit

According to the Retrospective on page 110 of White Dwarf 300 the flexidisc was indeed in issue 95 by Sabbat.  I bow to your supperior geek fu if not taste in games.

Anyhow, I've always thought GW was shooting itself in the foot on the pre-paint thing by not having silent auctions of painted collections and armies that people are selling in their stores.  I'd guess the stores would probably sell the armies in the display cases to anyone who offered them three of the right body parts (say an arm a leg and a kidney) but an auction system would give them a cut from after market sales, that would compound with the fact that most hobbists would just spend the take and more in store sooner or later.  Last and best, the crappy wrecked army someone brings in would sell for pocket change broadening their customer base into the land of people who can't afford GW products.  And there you go, world wide access to pre-painted models at affordable prices.  A nice boost for the guy who wants to change armies.  A solid incentive to finish painting an army before selling it.

I don't think BI was losing money either.  It wasn't making as much money as the novels.  You pay one writer and a cover artist for a novel.  It doesn't need playtesting, is printed on cheap paper, and sells at a higher ratio of production cost to cover price.  GW is struggling financial and trying to increase its profits to the point where they break even.  They're trimming the fat anywhere they think can.

Personally I think they should keep the book in print and publish fan generated material in White Dwarf and collect it in Annuals or Compendiums.  But they won't.  They've given up on putting game support in the magazine. (boy if you think cancelling Dark Heresy doesn't make any sense...)

At least they could add it to specialist games.

Quote from: BlackhandIt would deflate my elitist demeanor.  I would no longer gloat in the superiority of my geek-hobby compared to RPGr's and TCGr's.  Oh and the Prepainted Miniature gamers.

You could still gloat at the people who are pre-painted miniature gamers.  You are doing it now.

Quote from: BlackhandThe time spent meticulously crafting your army serves a purpose you might not understand.  You put a bit of your soul into it.  After that, it's yours.  These are your soldiers.  And they will fight to the death for you...or at least until it looks like you're going to lose.

I understand that element, and you'll notice that I explicitly excluded the army games from my proposal for exactly that reason.  I specifically mentioned the skirmish games which are already poorly supported by the elitists, which is why they are back-burner games rather than flagship products.

Quote from: BlackhandIt's not the same thing with prepaints.  They are soulless.

I fully understand what you are talking about, which is why I also talked about helping people customize pre-painted miniatures and about continuing to make the traiditional type of miniature available.  I also talked about making certain types of units only available the traditional way, so you could make a Spyrer or Redemptionist gang to field and be sure that you won't go up against a similar miniature or gang in pre-painted version.  You do realize that you could paint over the pre-painting, right?  

Quote from: BlackhandEven unpainted minis have soul, because you built them how you wanted them.

I don't know about that.  My assembled and primed miniatures seem pretty soulless and downright ugly to me, which is why I don't use them.  Consider the pre-painting a primer layer that looks a lot nicer than a coat of white, gray, or red if that makes it easier for you to deal with.

Quote from: BlackhandFor those of us who truly love the hobby and the game, no soul is the death of our game.

Then don't play with people who use pre-painted miniatures.  That was part of my proposal, too.  GW could demand that even the pre-painted miniatures be repainted or otherwise customized before they are allowed in official league or tournament play.  But marketing the game to a small and obsessive group of hobbyists like yourself could also be the death of the game or at least prevent the hobby from growing.  And GW has a responsibility to their shareholders to increase profits and market, not keep a bunch of fanatics who can't bear the thought of playing with a bunch of pre-painted miniatures on the table.  I suspect that most miniatures that get bought never get painted and it's been my experience that people who don't get around to painting miniatures stop buying them.  You might think the hobby is better off without them but I suspect that GW would be happy to still get their money.  Just how much Necromunda and Mordheim stuff is GW selling right now?

Quote from: BlackhandWe will fight tooth and nail to prevent prepaints in a GW game, but I'll be honest that I'm not worried about this at all.

Would you be opposed to GW adding pre-painted miniatures to an existing game or converting an existing game over to pre-painted miniatures or are you opposed to GW selling any sort of pre-painted miniatures even if it is for an entirely new game?  

Quote from: BlackhandGW will never make prepaints as that completely invalidates the core of their business.  They aren't selling prepainted models.  They aren't even selling a game, which is why they really give less a fuck about Dark Heresy.

They sell a hobby.  That's the plastic men, the paints, the tools to cut the men and file down the mold lines, putty to sculpt your own...these are the heart of our hobby, not the game.  That's why edition does not matter.  Rogue Trader was 20 years ago.  2nd Edition was 15 years ago.  It doesn't matter.

They are selling miniatures, not a lifestyle.  Ultimately, they don't care whether you think your army has a soul or not.  What they care about is whether you buy their miniatures or not.  And as the technology of pre-painting increases, I suspect they are going to keep an eye on how games like this sell.  Like I said, there was a lot of controversy when GW first started making their miniatures in plastic and they had to make quality assurance to people and so on to keep them happy.  Now nobody cares about the plastic miniatures.  

Just because GW sells figures pre-painted doesn't meant that they couldn't support the hobbyists, just like because toy train companies sell their train cars pre-painted doesn't mean that their isn't a hobbyist angle to toy trains or that the hobbyists don't have a lot of fun building scenery and detailing their pre-painted train cars.  There is also a lively market directed toward hobbyists of detailing kits for otherwise simple models.  Just because a company sells a model of an F-14 molded in the right shade of gray plastic and with decals does not mean that people don't detail and paint their models.  

Basically, I can understand why you think your crafted miniatures are superior to pre-painted miniatures.  I agree with that.  What I can't understand is your hostility toward their being available to non-hobbyists who don't have the time to paint a gang before playing and who might have an interest in the game, even if it's not all that important to you.

Quote from: BlackhandOh and prepaints all look the same - like dogshit.

So do unpainted or primed figures, and many miniatures painted by people who aren't highly skilled can look pretty awful, too.  It takes skill and time to produce a properly assembled and painted miniature that doesn't look awful.  And there are orders of magnitude more people who don't have time or skill to produce a miniatures that looks even as good as a pre-painted miniature out there, which is why companies are selling pre-painted miniatures.

Now, so long as pre-painted miniatures don't look as good as the custom miniatures that modelers produce, I'm not sure what your problem is or why you can't bear the thought of other people playing with them.  And I'm not sure why re-tooling and re-painting pre-painted miniatures is not a viable middle-ground for the hobbyist.

In any event, I suspect that GW's decision to produce or not produce pre-painted miniatures won't depend on my asking or people like you complaining but on whether they think it will ultimately give them access to a larger market that they can compete well in and make money from than their existing business model.  And it would be somewhat ironic if you one day found GW turning their back on you as a niche the same way that they've turned their back on the role-playing niche that you look down on.

At one time I firmly believed that absolutely anyone could learn to spray, pick out a couple details and dip.  Which is how prepaints are generally done.

Having tried to teach my son, I have to say it just isn't true.

No, I don't do dipping myself.  I've experimented with it out of curiousity on some Italiari 1/32 stuff but it really didn't save me much time.  I love Italiari's 1/32 line.  Buck a figure and twice the size.