Have been working on the Psychic Powers in my newest setting, and am wondering about balance.

Many abilities can become so powerful, that a single character can/will dominate a campaign.  Even in our current system that uses checks before power works, the ability to "walk through" an army at medium levels still exists.  I have hear of games in AD&D 2e where a psionic able character was lower level and still hindered others from being useful in game.  This, of course, has as much to do with the DM as it does with the player (or even rules set).  

With the newest setting being modified modern day, and the Psychic Characters being the dominant character (like WoD use of Mythical Creatures), how should the power breakdown?  

BACKGROUND:  The game is 1d8 roll under, and most Psychic abilities are going to increase from level one to seven in power (as a roll of eight always fails).  

Would the system gain balance better if each level of psychic ability was treated like mages (IE spells from level one until you achieved spells from level two), or (as the system does use point buy) to separate the abilities in levels and not move to the next level of power until one (or all) of the first level is achieved?

Maybe something you have done or used so the power remains balanced at low levels...

I think I might be interesed it this thread.  But I have no idea what the fuck you are saying.  

Try again please.  Remember I am not inside your brain.  Try ising proper nouns.

Quote from: rway218;981770Have been working on the Psychic Powers in my newest setting, and am wondering about balance.

Well, hopefully I can maybe suggest a thing or two.

QuoteMany abilities can become so powerful, that a single character can/will dominate a campaign.  Even in our current system that uses checks before power works, the ability to "walk through" an army at medium levels still exists.

Is this a feature or a bug? How are you compensating the other players who are not Psions? Or is it intended that all players be psions? Balance doesn't mean nerf the powers. It means there are compelling reasons to play all the character types.

QuoteWith the newest setting being modified modern day, and the Psychic Characters being the dominant character (like WoD use of Mythical Creatures), how should the power breakdown?

Do you mean how should  psionics fail? Or how should the other character types be 'elevated'? If the former, in interesting ways. Maybe they can fail spectacularly, in strange ways. Maybe they can push things to succeed, but with wild side effects. Maybe they are helpless and burned out.  If the latter, I would have to know a bit more about what you want to accomplish.

QuoteBACKGROUND:  The game is 1d8 roll under, and most Psychic abilities are going to increase from level one to seven in power (as a roll of eight always fails).

OK. Roll under what?

QuoteWould the system gain balance better if each level of psychic ability was treated like mages (IE spells from level one until you achieved spells from level two), or (as the system does use point buy) to separate the abilities in levels and not move to the next level of power until one (or all) of the first level is achieved?

If that's what you want to do, sure.

QuoteMaybe something you have done or used so the power remains balanced at low levels...

I prefer self-balancing systems to setting stuff up with a static balance, so probably not the best to give advice on balancing stuff...

Don't have your game use a leveling system. Problem solved.

If "Whaaaa!", figure out why you want to make Gods out of player characters in an already leveling system?

Quote from: rway218;981770Would the system gain balance better if each level of psychic ability was treated like mages (IE spells from level one until you achieved spells from level two), or (as the system does use point buy) to separate the abilities in levels and not move to the next level of power until one (or all) of the first level is achieved?

Maybe something you have done or used so the power remains balanced at low levels...

For me balance in RPGs is about a few things

1) The cost of the power should be commensurate with the advantage it gives the character -- so a cheap power shouldn't dominate the game. A more expensive one... might

2) There shouldn't be one optimal build. If there are 15 different mental attacks (lots of flavor!) but Mind Screw is so damn good you'd be stupid to buy anything else, the you might as well delete the other 14 -- or better yet, change them to make them viable, or nerf Mind Screw
2a) If there are character classes (either formal or informal), enable some kind of niche protection -- the combat psychic shouldn't also be a better psychic detective than the guy who planned to specialize in that

3) The game should make it relatively easy to judge the effectiveness of a character build. If the GM and players want player characters that are roughly at equal power levels (e.g. all the same level) that shouldn't require a ton of work. Point buy systems are supposed to enable this, but poorly built ones won't.

4) Powers which obviate enjoyable parts of the game should be expensive of limited in other ways (powers like mind-control and astral travel can reduce the fun of interacting with NPCs -- I'm not saying 'don't have them' but having versions of them with significant limits is often useful).

5) Encouraging builds that make sense. In a balanced game characters shouldn't come out lopsided (too much offense, not enough defense, or vice versa) by mistake. This is more important for games where good fights are important -- like super hero games. It's less important for more realistic games where characters aren't expected to take a shot from a gun and keep going

With this in mind, I'd ask a few questions:

a) How powerful should psychics be relative to non-powered humans? At what level should a psychic be able to reliably to
*  Win a drunken brawl 10/10 times
* Beat a trained MMA fighter
* Dominate a squad of soldiers

b) In terms of non-combat abilities, at what level are psychics able to do the following with very little chance of failure -- to the point where having that be the focus of a scenario might be dull gaming
* Able get answers out of regular people
* Get answers out of trained people / hardened criminals?
* Break into highly secure installations?
* Steal state secrets from world powers?
* Solve mysteries or crimes on the spot?

If a Level 4 psychic detective is supposed to be so good at solving mundane crimes that the game is no longer going to focus on crimes (outside of small scenarios to demonstrate his ability) you can work backwards to how powerful / balanced those abilities are for lower level characters.

c) What are fictional models for your game? I can think of movies like Scanners and Firestarter that had psychic characters in a modern-day setting. Are those good models, or would comic-book psychics (X-men) be a better fit? That might give you some ideas about how characters should progress in power

As to your specific question: Would the system gain balance better if each level of psychic ability was treated like mages (IE spells from level one until you achieved spells from level two), or (as the system does use point buy) to separate the abilities in levels and not move to the next level of power until one (or all) of the first level is achieved?

I'm not sure I understand this, but I think it's hard to tell either way without understanding what the abilities are and what levels are supposed to represent.

In theory you don't need both levels and point-buy -- both are ways to rate the effectiveness of a power and ensure that the power isn't available to characters too soon in the game.

In practice, point-buy tends to be more failure prone: In most systems I can dump all my points into  one power and buy a single over-powered ability.

Which one is right for your game probably depends on what you're trying to do.

Cheers,
-E.

Quote from: rway218;981770Have been working on the Psychic Powers in my newest setting, and am wondering about balance.

Describe naturally without using any game terms how Psionics work in your setting. Think about the implications. Revise and then write the rules to reflect the reality of how Psionics work.

In short fuck balance. The only thing that matters does it make sense in terms of the setting. You are setting up a tabletop roleplaying campaign not a wargame campaign.

Quote from: estar;982233Describe naturally without using any game terms how Psionics work in your setting. Think about the implications. Revise and then write the rules to reflect the reality of how Psionics work.

In short @@@@ balance. The only thing that matters does it make sense in terms of the setting. You are setting up a tabletop roleplaying campaign not a wargame campaign.

Nice.  I actually like the idea of working them backwards to get the system right.  I also see the need for there to be no non psych characters for PCs, unless they are "hunters"  some what like V:TM and the expansion "The Hunters Hunted" giving humans a fighting chance.

Quote from: rway218;982392Nice.  I actually like the idea of working them backwards to get the system right.  I also see the need for there to be no non psych characters for PCs, unless they are "hunters"  some what like V:TM and the expansion "The Hunters Hunted" giving humans a fighting chance.

That what I did when mucking with the Majestic Stars using a variant of the AGE system.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bx9oLF40m-b8alBfc3RLa3FQVVk/view?usp=sharing

Now that I done it once, I have a starting point of what Psionics is and isn't if I change system (White Star or Cepheus). The implementation would be different but the categories the range of effect, etc would be the same.

I am going to do a longer post tomorrow to cover previous questions.  Sorry it's taking some time to get free.