So I have seen this on the used shelf from time to time, as well as a magazine that appears to have been dedicated to it. The pseudo-Egyptian cover of a magazine caught my eye with the badass warrior and sexy priestess, or whatever they were.
Anybody ever actually play this game? What was good, what stunk up the room? What made it an improvement on D&D? What made it inferior? Is it worth owning and playing? Is it a fun read, at the very least? Is there a setting, or is it a rules set for which you create your own (as in D&D without additional books)?
Is it better or worse than Cyborg Commando?
Well, I never played it but sometime after I sold it off something clicked and I understood it. Keep in mind it's not as scary as it looks.
You have three apex stats, physical mental, and spiritual, and two stages below that for a total of 27 stats. But the tiers are totaled so you only generate 18 of them. The big things that matter are your social class and birth order because social class restricts career access and if you can pull off a seventh son of a seventh son you can really kick some ass on the magic front.
The careers are simple stat + n packages.
Combat is d% to hit with random damage and armor as DR. Sure you have around 30 DR levels based one hit location severity and attack type but really it's just DR in the end.
What you do see is monstrous stat blocks and spell lists where a full caster may have a couple hundred spells in their grimoire.
It scared me back when it came out but really, after Rolemaster Standard System it doesn't look much more difficult than BRP.
The setting Aerth is pretty interesting. It's a fairly generic counter earth with human cultures that map directly to the real world but it has an immediate dimensional twin where the various supernatural stuff for each culture exists. So in Christian countries hell is down under ground and heaven above in the alternate world. It's a really clever setup. And Necropolis is the grand daddy of mega adventures.
It is lavishly detailed, wonderfully over-written, delightfully confusing, excruciatingly complicated and further more incredulously bizarre.
It plays as if one was an astronaut at NASA attempting to define Wonderland in scientific calculations that correspond to real-world terms while randomly determining the scope of Wonderland at the time you were defining it.
It was fun to make characters when we were 12 or something. It took days. We loved all the tables and the 1000s of spells. We played for all but a couple sessions. My friend from those days still uses the system to run a Harry Potter game. I have no idea how he does it unless of course the obtuse nature of the system simply lends to the mystery of the arts (as perceived by the players trying to perceive the system so the characters can perceive).
If this post made no sense to you - run away. If you chuckled a tad, pick it up and give it a go. The worse you'll get is a headache. At best you will have experienced one of the Gygax Mysteries and perhaps will have grown closer to him in the process. YMMV of course.
Beyond what's good or bad, it's a fantastic reference for all things fantasy. It's like a weird encyclopedia with useful information littered throughout. I can't think of a fantasy campaign I've run Mythus where those books haven't come out for something. Need an idea for a spell? Mythus Magic has 1400+ of them. Need to flesh out a skill or specialization? Chances are it's in there. Demons? Spirits? Elementaries? You know you want to know what those are.
I love the game, warts and all. While all the rest of you get all nostalgic for B/X D&D, I'm looking over my Mythus books thinking of how to convince my group to give it a whirl.
The good: it's just got lots of cool ideas mixed in there. It's a percentile based system that gives you the D&D game experience. Not the gritty realism of Runequest, but more pulpy with some big dice rolls. Characters are cometent, well rounded and bursting with possibilities.
The bad: character creation is...a slog. Especially when you turn on all the bells and whistles. The book tells you all these bells and whistles are optional, but doesn't do much to help you decide what you want or don't want in your game. Spell casters are an even bigger slog. On top of that, the game was edited by blind monkeys. So if your going to play, your going to need to track down the first couple of issues of Mythic Masters Magazine to make things work.
Or you could do what I finally did: start with the basic game (Mythus Prime) and add advanced options until you get something that feels right. That's where we had the most success with the game.
If you do get it, PM me and I'll point you toward some enthusiasts of the game who can help get you going. But even if you never intend to play, the books are worth it for the content alone.
Tom
Gary Gygax's Fantasy Heartbreaker
I owned a copy of this for years, never played it, finally decided that D&D did it better and so I sold it.
My memory tells me that it was a decent enough game and the sourcebooks were pretty decent, but it just didn't have the spark that I found in OD&D and keeping it on my shelf just because Gary wrote it wasn't a good idea.
It was clearly better than Cyborg Commando. :p
Quote from: TristramEvans;834694Gary Gygax's Fantasy Heartbreaker
Hmm...don't think I'd classify it as a "heartbreaker." Most heartbreakers are built on a pseudo-D&D system but feature a few "house rules" that make it "superior", at least in the eyes of the writer. Calling DJ and Mythus a heartbreaker is pretty much like calling Shadowrun or Runequest at heartbreaker. Or maybe even Call of Cthulhu, since the first genre book for DJ was meant to be modern horror (Unhallowed). That seems like casting the net unreasonably wide.
It's fair to dislike the system – it has some substantial drawbacks – but lets not make it out to be what it is not.
Tom
Quote from: Blusponge;834688Beyond what's good or bad, it's a fantastic reference for all things fantasy. It's like a weird encyclopedia with useful information littered throughout. I can't think of a fantasy campaign I've run Mythus where those books haven't come out for something. Need an idea for a spell? Mythus Magic has 1400+ of them. Need to flesh out a skill or specialization? Chances are it's in there. Demons? Spirits? Elementaries? You know you want to know what those are.
I love the game, warts and all. While all the rest of you get all nostalgic for B/X D&D, I'm looking over my Mythus books thinking of how to convince my group to give it a whirl.
The good: it's just got lots of cool ideas mixed in there. It's a percentile based system that gives you the D&D game experience. Not the gritty realism of Runequest, but more pulpy with some big dice rolls. Characters are cometent, well rounded and bursting with possibilities.
The bad: character creation is...a slog. Especially when you turn on all the bells and whistles. The book tells you all these bells and whistles are optional, but doesn't do much to help you decide what you want or don't want in your game. Spell casters are an even bigger slog. On top of that, the game was edited by blind monkeys. So if your going to play, your going to need to track down the first couple of issues of Mythic Masters Magazine to make things work.
Or you could do what I finally did: start with the basic game (Mythus Prime) and add advanced options until you get something that feels right. That's where we had the most success with the game.
If you do get it, PM me and I'll point you toward some enthusiasts of the game who can help get you going. But even if you never intend to play, the books are worth it for the content alone.
Tom
Thanks, Tom. Next time I see it I may buy it if the price isn't too bad.
Last time I bought a Starter Traveller boxed set for $7. Not bad!
Quote from: Blusponge;834800Hmm...don't think I'd classify it as a "heartbreaker." Most heartbreakers are built on a pseudo-D&D system but feature a few "house rules" that make it "superior", at least in the eyes of the writer.
Most, not all. The concept extends further than that.
QuoteCalling DJ and Mythus a heartbreaker is pretty much like calling Shadowrun or Runequest at heartbreaker. Or maybe even Call of Cthulhu, since the first genre book for DJ was meant to be modern horror (Unhallowed). That seems like casting the net unreasonably wide.
Not seeing where you're drawing those analogies.
Thing is, it wasn't really Gygax's game. He was the less active half of the design team.
I want to like DJ, but it's clearly the dinosaur that evolved to a ridiculous size right before the pesky little mammals came and ate all its eggs. Too baroque for this world.
Quote from: TristramEvans;834951Not seeing where you're drawing those analogies.
Perhaps you should give me your definition of a heartbreaker.
Quote from: The_Shadow;834956Thing is, it wasn't really Gygax's game. He was the less active half of the design team.
What?!?! Where the hell are you getting that? Gygax was extremely prolific for DJ. Is your contention that it was Mike McCulley's game (co-writer on Unhallowed)? Dave Newton's (co-writer on Mythus)? Frank Menzter's (editor and publisher of Mythic Masters Magazine)? This doesn't jive with ANYTHING I saw or read while Mythus was being actively published.
Or are you talking about Cyborg Commando?
Tom
Quote from: Blusponge;835006Perhaps you should give me your definition of a heartbreaker.
It comes from 2 essays by the person who coined the term, which I wont provide links to on this forum as it would be like mixing matter with antimatter.
I also find your pedanticism in the face of humour incredibly offputting.
I've never used the rules set, mainly because I have only the core book and Epic of Aerth (Mythus Magic being the main addition I'd want). It has yet to spark my interest for a less-fantastic scenario.
Aerth is intriguing, and I have the d20System version of Necropolis. The scenario looks quite excellent, though geared to highly skilled players. I look forward to running it when I have an appropriate group and time, but probably not with either DJ or WotC-D&D.
I still have a promo poster from a magazine advertising the release of:
DANGEROUS DIMENSIONS
The title, obviously was subject to change. :D
Quote from: Exploderwizard;835035I still have a promo poster from a magazine advertising the release of:
DANGEROUS DIMENSIONS
The title, obviously was subject to change. :D
Everyone knows TSR had the exclusive rights to alliteration involving the letter D. They would have sent Marvel a C&D over Devil Dinosaur had it not been cancelled before TSR's lawyers could draft their letter.
Quote from: Blusponge;835006Perhaps you should give me your definition of a heartbreaker.
What?!?! Where the hell are you getting that? Gygax was extremely prolific for DJ. Is your contention that it was Mike McCulley's game (co-writer on Unhallowed)? Dave Newton's (co-writer on Mythus)? Frank Menzter's (editor and publisher of Mythic Masters Magazine)? This doesn't jive with ANYTHING I saw or read while Mythus was being actively published.
Or are you talking about Cyborg Commando?
Tom
It is my contention that DJ was largely Dave Newton's game, with a bit of Gygaxian flavor. At this stage the LDL cholesterol was causing Gary's life to be one sugar-rush chase after another, and his head was rarely clear except after church on Sundays, at which time he would sit down to add to his unpublished magnum opus on polearms, or coin a fresh 'gaxism such as "dweomercraeft".
Quote from: The_Shadow;835129It is my contention that DJ was largely Dave Newton's game, with a bit of Gygaxian flavor. At this stage the LDL cholesterol was causing Gary's life to be one sugar-rush chase after another, and his head was rarely clear except after church on Sundays, at which time he would sit down to add to his unpublished magnum opus on polearms, or coin a fresh 'gaxism such as "dweomercraeft".
Hogwash. This was his magnum opus. It a thing of Gygaxian Beauty. It's not for everyone. Obviously not for you. But if the word dweomercraeft doesn't make your nether regions tingle just a little... you're dead inside.
You seem jealous. Maybe you should hug a copy for a couple hours and see if True Love doesn't help remove the cold spot in your soul where EGG touched you.
(:-P)
Quote from: The_Shadow;834956I want to like DJ, but it's clearly the dinosaur that evolved to a ridiculous size right before the pesky little mammals came and ate all its eggs. Too baroque for this world.
I flipped through it a few times, and I must say, "Baroque" is the perfect word for the impression it left, in all the positive and negative senses of the word.
But yeah, marketing a system like that when White Wolf and Shadowrun were the new hotness ... it probably would have stumbled even without the legal issues.
Quote from: trechriron;835184But if the word dweomercraeft doesn't make your nether regions tingle just a little... you're dead inside.
Your moving prose is almost enough to make me reconsider. Words to lash to the mast during the fierce storms of life, indeed.
Quote from: The_Shadow;835328Your moving prose is almost enough to make me reconsider. Words to lash to the mast during the fierce storms of life, indeed.
I'm not advocating you like the game or even play it...
I'm advocating that EGG is a person worth respecting. Even if the prose and "Gaxisms" are a little... much sometimes. :-D
Roleplaying is Re-Creation. It's about letting go and exploring someplace we're making up in our minds. Arneson and Gygax are to my hobby as Lewis and Clark are to the state I live in. It's ok to feel tingly when you dust off a tome filled with wondrous ideas and get a little giddy. It's what this THING is all about IMHO.
P.S and Thanks for the kudos. :-)
So what about Cyborg Commando? Underrated Masterpiece? Stinking mound of burning feces? Why? Wherefore? I see it panned but seldom do I see any real reasons given, often it just seems like parrots repeating criticisms they heard of something they've never experienced.
You know? I think it was actually pretty clever and just poorly presented. Secret bases, cyborg bodies, alien remotes that look like dust mites (eewww), a desperate last stand against the bugs in a last ditch war to save the human race.
Mechanically, ehhh, d10x is an interesting probability range but I've known more gamers who couldn't add let alone multiply than I'd like to think about. Might make low level thieves a little better.
I think the tightly focussed game wasn't quite a thing by the time it came out. No reasonable person bitches about having to play a vampire in Vampire the Masquerade these days but that was then and this is now.
I suspect it needed better presentation. We were well into the high end art and color plates period at the time with Games Workshop leading the way. Heck remember when Games Workshop led the way instead of chasing the gravy train? The art was poor, boxed sets were on the way out, and the rpg as story movement was rolling into its prime.
I was given a copy by a friend who found it in a local liquidation shop. So I've read it through but I never played it.
Interesting to hear. I often wonder about games being the victims of timing and marketing.
(Also, are you and the other New York Dolls working on anything?)
Quote from: David Johansen;835449Secret bases, cyborg bodies, alien remotes that look like dust mites (eewww), a desperate last stand against the bugs in a last ditch war to save the human race.
Sounds kinda like Mechanoids
Quote from: Ronin;835454Sounds kinda like Mechanoids
Gygax ripping off Siembieda? Payback?
Quote from: Matt;835451Interesting to hear. I often wonder about games being the victims of timing and marketing.
(Also, are you and the other New York Dolls working on anything?)
I'm working on a solo project. A modern rpg that draws on Twilight 2000, though it has diverged a fair bit from it.
I don't really get any kind of a Mechanoids vibe from Cyborg Commando. Mechanoids is pure, shiny comic book space opera while CC is a gritty Arnold Schwartzneger flick where the soldiers picking their way through the jungle at night are ambushed by hideous bug critters with energy weapons. But as the soldiers go down, their skin hideously burned away they start getting back up, with their cybernetic hardware showing through the burned away polymer skin.
I love Mechanoids but I think it would be a huge stretch to think CC was derivative of it. Heck CC is set on Earth and Mechanoids is set on a colony world called Gideon E that happens to have Fremen errr Rovers.
Quote from: David Johansen;835460CC is a gritty Arnold Schwartzneger flick where the soldiers picking their way through the jungle at night are ambushed by hideous bug critters with energy weapons.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/37/Systems_Failure_RPG_1999.jpg)
Systems Failure? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_Failure)
;):p:)
Is it just me or is everything is six degrees of Palladium Books :)
I'm fairly sure that System's Failure came out after Cyborg Commando. Also, unless that guy's a cyborg with his brain in his chest (and I ain't sayin' he ain't 'cause Palladium am I right?) it's no Cyborg Commando.
System Failure is pretty cool. Y2K bugs are literally bugs who invade. Fun.
Quote from: David Johansen;835480I'm fairly sure that System's Failure came out after Cyborg Commando. Also, unless that guy's a cyborg with his brain in his chest (and I ain't sayin' he ain't 'cause Palladium am I right?) it's no Cyborg Commando.
Oh, your quite correct on all of that. But its I think, an amusing comparison.
Quote from: Matt;835484System Failure is pretty cool. Y2K bugs are literally bugs who invade. Fun.
Totally agree. People may not care for Pally's system (Among other complaints). But no one can deny the settings, and fluff are top notch
It was definitely not worse than Cyborg Commando. But then again, almost nothing is!