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Author Topic: [D20] Spell Item Pricing  (Read 677 times)

Dacke

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[D20] Spell Item Pricing
« on: May 08, 2006, 11:58:38 PM »
At work today, I started thinking about the pricing of spell-based magic items (notably scrolls, potions, and wands, but also many items in other categories). In an earlier thread, I complained about the low price of wands of cure light wounds, especially compared to more high-powered wands (a wand of CLW costs about 2.7 gp per hp healed, while a wand of CMW costs 7.5 gp per hp and a wand of CSW costs 12.2 gp per hp).

Anyway, I started thinking about the price of "spell" items compared to "bonus" items. Spell items are normally priced as Spell level * Caster level * constant, while bonus items are priced as bonus^2 * constant. Since most items are made at minimum caster level by primary spellcasters (wizards, clerics, or druids), CL is equal to 2*SL-1. This in turn means that spell items cost (2*SL^2 - SL) * constant. For spells of a 2nd or higher level, that's between 1.5 and 1.9 times the factor for a normal bonus item.

What I am considering is to make spell items with the "standard" casting level cost (spell level)^2 * constant. This would lead to the following item costs:
Code: [Select]
[b]Level  L^2  scroll  potion     wand   use-activated[/b]
1        1      25      50      750           2 000    
2        4     100     200    3 000           8 000    
3        9     225     450    6 750          18 000    
4       16     400     800   12 000          32 000    
5       25     625   1 250   18 750          50 000    
6       36     900   1 800   27 000          72 000    
7       49   1 225   2 450   36 750          98 000    
8       64   1 600   3 200   48 000         128 000    
9       81   2 025   4 050   60 750         162 000

Items made with non-standard caster levels would have costs in proportion to their base costs (e.g. a CL 8 wand of fireball would cost 8/5 times as much as the base version, or 1.6*6,750 = 10,800).

So, anyone got an opinion on this?
 

Xavier Lang

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[D20] Spell Item Pricing
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2006, 10:13:22 AM »
Use activated means one time per day, correct or does it mean once a round?  My brain is foggy and i want to make sure.
 

Dacke

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[D20] Spell Item Pricing
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2006, 10:18:51 AM »
Use-activated is normally at-will. If it has daily uses, each use costs 20% of the listed cost.
 

Xavier Lang

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[D20] Spell Item Pricing
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2006, 10:24:05 AM »
So, for 2000gp I can cast Cure Light Wounds (heal 1d8 + 1) every round?

I go with that option and never use the others. :)

Seriously.  If I can do even a single point of healing per combat round, that is all I ever need out of combat to recover, it would be like shareable fast healing for the party.

One of D&D's limitations is that while the spells may be balanced inside of combat, some spells are unstoppable out of combat if you can do them once every 6 seconds.  The magic item creation rules, as far as I know, don't handle this well.

Who wouldn't pay 50,000gp if they had it for a item that lets you teleport once a round, every round, forever.

Decanter of Endless water and all its crazy world shattering uses is basically create water castable every round forever.

As to your actual topic, the table, I have no issue with anything except the cost for things you can do every round.  Sadly, I have no suggestions on how to fix the problem.
 

Ilium

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[D20] Spell Item Pricing
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2006, 10:43:44 AM »
How about a high daily use limit?  While an "infinite CLW" would certainly be game breaking, one that can be used, say, 10 times per day might not be.  That would also help to explain why people bother to make items of, for example, Cure Serious Wounds.  If there's a daily limit on castings (or hourly or weekly or whatever) then it makes the higher-powered spell useful.
 

Name Lips

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[D20] Spell Item Pricing
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2006, 10:43:46 AM »
Quote from: Xavier Lang
One of D&D's limitations is that while the spells may be balanced inside of combat, some spells are unstoppable out of combat if you can do them once every 6 seconds.  The magic item creation rules, as far as I know, don't handle this well.

This is why there aren't really item creation "rules" - just "guidelines." You're supposed to look for items of similar power and price relative to them, use excessive DM fiat to balance items with greater-than-intended powers, etc. You're right, the system doesn't work very well.

And the best magic items don't match spells at all. There's nothing in the guidelines for unusual items, like bags of holding or the aparatus of kwalish. Those prices were just made up by the developers.

I'm sure you've all seen ridiculous attempts to take advantage of the "rules" as printed - like the Ring of True Strike. "It's just a first level spell!" :p Yeah, like any DM is going to let THAT one fly.
Next phase, new wave, dance craze, anyways, it's still rock and roll to me.

You can talk all you want about theory, craft, or whatever. But in the end, it's still just new ways of looking at people playing make-believe and having a good time with their friends. Intellectualize or analyze all you want, but we've been playing the same game since we were 2 years old. We just have shinier books, spend more money, and use bigger words now.

Xavier Lang

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[D20] Spell Item Pricing
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2006, 12:53:19 PM »
Quote from: Name Lips
This is why there aren't really item creation "rules" - just "guidelines." You're supposed to look for items of similar power and price relative to them, use excessive DM fiat to balance items with greater-than-intended powers, etc. You're right, the system doesn't work very well.

And the best magic items don't match spells at all. There's nothing in the guidelines for unusual items, like bags of holding or the aparatus of kwalish. Those prices were just made up by the developers.

I'm sure you've all seen ridiculous attempts to take advantage of the "rules" as printed - like the Ring of True Strike. "It's just a first level spell!" :p Yeah, like any DM is going to let THAT one fly.


I wish they would have dealt with more of the special cases if they were going to write up formula's that fail on the things the players want the most.

I had a player ask about the True Strike thing.  He knew better when he asked, but it was only days after we got 3.0 so he felt he had to. :)
 

Dacke

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[D20] Spell Item Pricing
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2006, 04:58:47 PM »
Quote from: Xavier Lang
So, for 2000gp I can cast Cure Light Wounds (heal 1d8 + 1) every round?
My rules don't change the fact that the primary pricing rule for items is "The DM decides." The rod of infinite healing doesn't become more possible just because the pricing guidelines change, when any DM worth his salt would nix that idea in the bud. The existing guidelines already allow for this item in theory, and at the same price (since it's a 1st level spell).

What it would do would be to change the price of items that are already allowed. For example, a pair of winged boots casts fly 3/day. With the old guidelines, the cost would be (3/5) * 3*5*1,800 (command word item) = 16,200. The DMG price is 16,000, so they just rounded it I guess. With the newer rules, they would cost (3/5) * 3^2 * 1,800 = 9,720 (round to 9,500 I guess).

Another example would be eyes of charming that let the user cast a charm person heightened to 4th level once per round. Old cost: 4*7*2,000 = 56,000 (matches the DMG's price). New cost: 4*4*2,000 = 32,000.

On one level, I'm considering doing this because "active" items are more fun in the game. By that, I mean that getting +4 to Strength is a neat and all, but once I have made the changes to my attack bonus, damage, weight allowance, and skills, I can pretty much forget about it. If I instead have an item that lets me cast a 7d6 orb of lightning three times per day (cost with my rules: about 17k, compared to the 16k of getting +4 Str), I get an additional option during the game (hit someone, or use my lightning rod), and more options are good.

However, I have noticed that when people make their characters from scratch, they generally tend to focus on straight bonus items rather than the more "fun" spell items. The only spell items I see most of the time tend to be wands/potions of healing, and the occasional scroll of a spell that's rarely used. But when I give out spell items in the course of play, the PCs seem happy to hold on to them rather than sell them off (at half price), which tells me that they're probably overpriced by a factor of somewhere between 1 and 2.
 

Dacke

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[D20] Spell Item Pricing
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2006, 05:02:14 PM »
Quote from: Name Lips
I'm sure you've all seen ridiculous attempts to take advantage of the "rules" as printed - like the Ring of True Strike. "It's just a first level spell!" :p Yeah, like any DM is going to let THAT one fly.
Actually, I wouldn't have any problem with a ring of true strike that worked like the bow of true arrows from Sword & Fist (basically, a wand with infinite charges). The limiting factor there is that using it takes an action, so you're giving up all your attacks for one round in exchange for one attack in the next round that is pretty certain to hit.

A ring that gave an automatic +20 to all attacks, though? That ain't gonna happen.
 

der_kluge

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[D20] Spell Item Pricing
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2006, 05:05:29 PM »
Check out the Artificer's Handbook.
http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=5130&

It has a formula for magic item creation.

The formula is based on the caster level and spell level. The rules presented also require a number of spell slots be temporarily consumed during the creation process, based on the type of item that it is, and the duration of the spell being utilized. Essentially, a spell that has a duration of hours per level is easier to place into a wondrous item than a spell that has a duration of just a few rounds.

The formula for determing the creation cost is:
10gp(spell level + caster level -1) * # of spell slots required^2.