Quote from: RandallS;468573It me, this is much harder as I have to look at the dice in two different ways: first as a percent, and second to see if some specific number came up on a specific die. With the standard Chaosium RQ method, I read the dice once as a percentage at glance at the table on my character sheet to tell me if I succeeded and how well. I don't think either method is intrinsically better. Which is better for an individual depends more on personal preferences than on anything else.

No.

The math is so much of a pain in the ass that you don't even do it, and you look up the answers on a fucking chart. Special numbers in the ones place are so much better than that that it isn't even funny. Let's start with "however much space you just wasted on your fucking chart can be replaced with a bigger inventory box or pictures of naked ladies."

This is exactly the kind of bullshit grognardism that I am objecting to. The fact that you can get something to work at all and it is familiar to you and you fear change does not mean that it is "just as good" as doing it another way. It means that you have a personal problem where your fear of change is holding back actual progress.

-Frank

d100 roll over (the TN should be 101 to make it mathematically equivalent) involves adding two 2 digit numbers, probably resulting in a 3 digit number. That is a relatively slow operation. It's something that would be better done with a d20, and there is little that a d100 offers you over that.

Roll under is a simple comparison. If you need to do opposed checks then get one person to roll their score - the opponent's score +50. Adding modifiers makes very little difference.

If you want to use a d100, roll under will nearly always be preferred in play.

Quote from: spaceLem;468575d100 roll over (the TN should be 101 to make it mathematically equivalent) involves adding two 2 digit numbers, probably resulting in a 3 digit number. That is a relatively slow operation. It's something that would be better done with a d20, and there is little that a d100 offers you over that.

Roll under is a simple comparison. If you need to do opposed checks then get one person to roll their score - the opponent's score +50. Adding modifiers makes very little difference.

If you want to use a d100, roll under will nearly always be preferred in play.

Aaaargh!

Your suggestion for avoiding adding two digit numbers was to subtract two digit numbers. That's not easier.

-Frank

Quote from: spaceLem;468575(...)Roll under is a simple comparison. If you need to do opposed checks then get one person to roll their score - the opponent's score +50. Adding modifiers makes very little difference.(...)

It's not always clear who or what is the opponent. Also, what if more than two opponents are competing? Roll-over or blackjack method roll-under are much more practical for this.

Quote from: FrankTrollman;468574The math is so much of a pain in the ass that you don't even do it, and you look up the answers on a fucking chart.

Yes, getting rid of the math entirely so it doesn't matter how good or bad you are at math. Do the math once to create the table and you never need need to even think about it again -- better yet the table was created by the game designer so you don't even need to worry doing the math to create it.

Of course, there is a way to do it without tables and without much math (no math at all on most rolls) but having tried it is still slower and more effort than using a handy table.

Roll the dice. If the roll is over your percent chance you fail.  (No math).  If the roll is under your percent chance, you succeed.  (no math) If the roll is very low (at or under the tens digit of your percent chance, you have at least a special success -- it's a critical success if the roll is at or under half of the tens digit of your percent chance), otherwise it's a special success. (the only time you need math and it's simply taking half of a single digit number.

Side Note: IMHO, neither the roll under THAC0 or the roll over D20 hit roll (or any of the other variants, Target20, etc) is as easy for me as having the line for your character class and level from a old D&D "to hit" table on the character sheet. And I'm not bad at math, I just see no reason to do something over and over again when I can just glance at a table instead.

QuoteThis is exactly the kind of bullshit grognardism that I am objecting to. The fact that you can get something to work at all and it is familiar to you and you fear change does not mean that it is "just as good" as doing it another way. It means that you have a personal problem where your fear of change is holding back actual progress.

Or it means you are so in love with your preference that you can not grasp that what is best for you may not be best for someone else. (Or the many other things it might mean besides what you've assumed it means.)

BTW, I've been told my preferences for fast, abstract  combat (averaging 10 minutes, with around 20 minutes being the maximum I am willing to put up with) rather than the long combats with minis and battlemats of WOTC editions of D&D is "bullshit grognardism" as well. I don't apologize for not allowing others to force their pet ideas of what my gaming likes and dislikes should be on me -- or on my players. Nor will I adopt someone else's preferences just because they loudly and/or forcefully tell me over and over again how much theirs are great and mine are awful.

Quote from: Vile;468572Are there actually any games out there that use Roll-over D100 (given that I can't stand Rolemaster)?

I was curious enough about that to look over the rpg lists at Darkshire - not necessarily comprehensive as he doesn't always list core mechanic but outside of the Rolemaster family (RM/MERP/HARP) this turned up:
 
*100% Fantasy RPG, v1.00 (link seems to be dead) (freerpg)
*Bump in the Night RPG (attack rolls only; other checks are roll-low) (freerpg)
*OmniRole (freerpg, dead link)
*Tales of Wyn D'mere (listed as freerpg, dead link: also sold on drivethru though - I got a copy in the Haiti download).
 
Also:
-World of Synnibarr uses it for Shot (attack) Rolls (most other checks - including dodge rolls! - are roll under percentile);
-Legacy (game from 1978 about playing cavemen, by David A. Feldt) seems to have used it a bit.
 
 
StrikeForce: 2136 uses the subtraction method [skill - d100].
 
EDIT: Arduin Eternal (according to its review on rpgnet by ajadrakeh) uses d100+bonuses as well.

Hackmaster uses d100 roll over for opposed tests. They don't use for non-opposed tests "So they wouldn't be like d20". Seriously. They specifically chose to use extra baroque mechanics in order to not do things the way a more successful game did.

-Frank

Hrm, so no actual published games that use it as a core mechanism? Then it's either an untapped goldmine or just an unexploded mine. If anyone were to try to publish a mainstream game with it there had better be a whole damn lot of playtesting to try to break it in any which way that can be imagined, before going public.

That makes it unsuitable for re-working an old brand with established system expectations and a 6-month deadline. Still a contender for a daring entrepeneur, though.

Charts are good, but they are limited to what's on the chart. Also, for a complex long term game, a bountiful amount of charts get in the way and slow down the game considerably. If one is ok with that, that's fine. I happen to like charts a lot, and use them frequently, although try to limit the set of charts used to keep the game progressing at pace suitable for the story at hand.

I like the TN roll over system best though. It's elegant, it's simple, it's fast.

The d100 system offers a wider variety of options. The d20 system is faster, but offers less variety. Most actions in situations though don't require an option beyond succeed/fail, so why all the hullaballoo about using d100?

d100 does lend itself to extending the sweet spot in games where levels are used. With d100, level progression is slower, keeping the characters at low power levels (and vulnerable) longer while at the same time extending that mid-level interesting play phase and staving off the high-powered or over-powered level game that is the most difficult to balance for extended duration play.

Quote from: Vile;468588Hrm, so no actual published games that use it as a core mechanism?

Rolemaster uses it. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Personally, I find "roll under D100" to be very intuitive and simple.

I have played many different games over the years and none has come close to the simplicity of the generic d100 system. Well, HeroQuest does, but we'll gloss over that.

I can see how roll-over-100 works, but it isn't satisfying for me. I played Rolemaster a few times but didn't like it a lot - too many tables, disconnect between roll and damage, lost a dwarf tank in the first round of combat due to an arrow in the eye.

Quote from: FrankTrollman;468587Hackmaster uses d100 roll over for opposed tests. They don't use for non-opposed tests "So they wouldn't be like d20". Seriously. They specifically chose to use extra baroque mechanics in order to not do things the way a more successful game did.

-Frank

Define "More Successful"...

For a Publisher "Successful" really means how much sell through the game does, i.e. how many copies sold vs how many got printed. Also, how much of a profit they made on it vs how much they spent developing it. So far, from all indicators that I've seen, HackMaster is doing very well and it's only been out for 2 years(the new version).

I don't see how the skill game mechanic is any harder than any other game system out there...

One situation in which roll-under systems work well is if there are few modifiers added to any particular roll. Openquest and UA are two roll-under systems in which you rarely modify target numbers or rolls, so it's a straight comparison between roll and target number with no math required. In OQ, you can even precalculate things for the few times you will get bonuses since they have a regular progression and narrow range (-50%, -25%, +25%, +50%).

MRQII, I'm finding, is about the tipping point - if I had to modify rolls more than I do when playing that game (about a third of the time) or if I needed to handle more than the addition of a single modifier regularly (less than 10% of the time), I'd look to simplify the math.

Roll-over would definitely improve Dark Heresy, WFRP, etc. where you're using tons and tons of modifiers and have extremely low skill percentages to begin with.

Good idea Frank, though I think you should look away from BRP for better examples of the possible convolutions of a roll-under percentile system, since BRP's overall tendency has been to simplify modifiers.

Quote from: danbuter;468591Rolemaster uses it. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Don't be the pedant, man. Unless you can follow it up with some actual useful information.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;468606Good idea Frank, though I think you should look away from BRP for better examples of the possible convolutions of a roll-under percentile system, since BRP's overall tendency has been to simplify modifiers.

I agree, I think BRP/RQ is better served by simplifying modifiers than turning the whole system around. I really only use skill x 1/2, skill x 1 or skill x 2. That's not hard (well, not for people I've gamed with). The main point is that a brand is only worth the name if it meets expectations, it's very risky to try to re-make the contents without losing the very thing that makes the brand valuable, i.e. its existing customer base.

Still very intrigued by this roll-over thing, though. I shall have to have a closer look at some of those games mentioned, even if they don't go the whole hog.

Roll under. More intuitive, no conversion math, and easier bookkeeping.

Whaddya gotta get to pass? You have a 75% chance, so roll inside that. OK! Done.

Hey, I got an extra point, what can I do with it? You can increase your 75% chance to 76%. OK! Done.

The only addition that makes my life easier is d100 ran by 2d10 read backwards & forwards. So an 81 reads also like an 18, so you'd get the minimum 1 success needed to pass. Also allows a degree of success function when I want it, too.