What a lot of modern people tend to forget about history is that until around the mid-20th century, the vast majority of people in any society were living at or just above the subsistence level, and in that situation everyone works. Way too many people base their entire understanding of history on how the upper classes lived.

I've been dealing with this a little running Cyberpunk Red. The core book is fine really, but some of the supplements lean hard into Current Year. My response has been to emphasise the 1980s feel of the original, which was after all The Best Decade. 

I think it very unfortunate if games like CoC aren't run more or less as "period authentic" settings. For example: What's the point of playing in Weimar Germany if you don't include the huge political and social tensions that marked Germany during this period? Also, something like 99.99% of the people were white, so skin color didn't influence society like it did in the U.S. By today's standards, practically everyone in Europe would be considered racist to some degree. Moreover, many cosmopolitan Jews in western Europe looked down upon the ultra-orthodox Jews in countries such as Poland.

Quote from: Rhymer88 on February 26, 2024, 11:01:38 AM
I think it very unfortunate if games like CoC aren't run more or less as "period authentic" settings. For example: What's the point of playing in Weimar Germany if you don't include the huge political and social tensions that marked Germany during this period? Also, something like 99.99% of the people were white, so skin color didn't influence society like it did in the U.S. By today's standards, practically everyone in Europe would be considered racist to some degree. Moreover, many cosmopolitan Jews in western Europe looked down upon the ultra-orthodox Jews in countries such as Poland.

Nothing wrong with period authentic, but a lot of people prefer less-authentic games.

Even in the horror genre, there's a degree of wish-fulfillment in RPGs - where PCs don't have to deal with things like social snubs, papers being checked, forms to fill out, and so forth. For example, I think that's a big drawsof the zombie apocalypse genre -- in fiction, it's more fun to deal with things like zombies eating your brains than snippy help at the mall.

The last Call of Cthulhu campaign I played in was Masks of Nyarlathotep. It was authentic in some respects, but it was action-heavy, and we glossed over some of mundane life to get to the action. By a quarter of the way through, we were solidly gun-toting criminals. So the prejudices that our characters faced in social life didn't matter to us much, compared to the end-of-the-world cultists we were killing.

On the other hand, I've also played in some other campaigns with more socializing and everyday life, where it mattered that my character was a black bar hostess from Detroit, say. My other PC's Catholicism was a also a big deal.

It depends on what the GM and players are into.

This is often why I tend to gravitate towards post-apocalyptic, post-post-apocalyptic, and scifi/sci-fantasy settings overall (or to the real world complete with all its counter-woke ideologies).

I don't like "current year Seattle" values, nor do I have a desire to revisit the values of the past prior to the 20th Century (I'd say "Roaring Twenties" is about as early as I'd go in terms of real world settings)... so settings where the nature of them allows you to mix familiar and non-Woke values plausibly is where I'm at.

One example of the very non-woke of many of my post-apocalyptic settings is simply that the general population of survivors has zero use and little tolerance for what they call the "luxury ideologies" of the past.

When the global population has been dropped to barely 7 million people and a town of a few thousand is the only civilization for a hundred miles in any direction; they have zero use for the various "non-breeders" who aren't producing offspring to strengthen the community and provide for their parents in old age since there is no social safety net save for one's actual family.

What you do on the side of raising a family is your business (just be discreet), but those who aren't having children by choice are seen as freeloaders who expect other peoples' children to care for them and are likely to be cast out.

Similarly, current year identity politics doesn't have a place in sci-fi where the most extreme differences among humans pale in comparison to their differences from sapient life from other planets, nor when the setting is further from the current year than we are from the Western Roman Empire.

Sure, you can slot in parallels, but the thing about said parallels I've found is they often seem to highlight just how trivial the "oppression" of the current year actually is without it feeling silly precisely because stripped of the current year identifiers it would be silly (ex. the androids are upset that until 200 years ago past androids were slaves to the humans until a group of humans waged a war in which hundreds of thousands of humans died to free them and all the humans who did enslave them have been dead for a century makes the reparations issue sound like nonsense. Meanwhile if you have the androids still being enslaved you highlight how far we've come compared to the humans of the setting and without some very heavy coding which would get you canceled it also risks being seen as an analogy for any of thousands of ethnic groups who've been enslaved throughout history instead of the current year group screaming about oppression).

Quote from: Rhymer88 on February 26, 2024, 11:01:38 AM
I think it very unfortunate if games like CoC aren't run more or less as "period authentic" settings. For example: What's the point of playing in Weimar Germany if you don't include the huge political and social tensions that marked Germany during this period? Also, something like 99.99% of the people were white, so skin color didn't influence society like it did in the U.S. By today's standards, practically everyone in Europe would be considered racist to some degree. Moreover, many cosmopolitan Jews in western Europe looked down upon the ultra-orthodox Jews in countries such as Poland.

There are, of course, some settings where more period authentic should be the way to go, one of them the one you cite. If I want to avoid the "downfalls" of playing in Weimar Germany then I shouldn't play in that setting, instead constructing a new one whre Germany has been culturally enriched and their women have to wear burkas or something.

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 26, 2024, 05:03:29 PM
This is often why I tend to gravitate towards post-apocalyptic, post-post-apocalyptic, and scifi/sci-fantasy settings overall (or to the real world complete with all its counter-woke ideologies).

I don't like "current year Seattle" values, nor do I have a desire to revisit the values of the past prior to the 20th Century (I'd say "Roaring Twenties" is about as early as I'd go in terms of real world settings)... so settings where the nature of them allows you to mix familiar and non-Woke values plausibly is where I'm at.

Post-apocalyptic settings are really interesting on this front. The setting I'm currently working on is one in which humanity was formerly a hyper-advanced civilization that achieved space travel through a combination of metaphysical and psychic power, but due to a catastrophe that stranded them on a hostile planet, has lost all that knowledge and degraded back to a roughly late medieval tech level. That begs the question of what would a civilization look like if instead of developing along the historical path into the middle ages, it degraded back to it from another state? After all, there's no Catholic Church and none of the historical circumstances that produced feudalism.

I tend to think the society that setup produces would end up resembling something like the American Frontier. Population collapse often produces upward mobility and a breakdown of social stratification (like it did in Europe after the Black Death), and a relatively small population spreading out over a new planet would produce something like the land rush America experienced in it's early centuries. Hostile inhabitants of the planet would produce the same attitude of every frontiersman needing to be armed and able to defend himself. And then an armed populace reinforces the loop of a less rigid social hierarchy and so on.

I haven't put a huge amount of thought into sex roles and things like that yet. In a large scale campaign setting, that's something that's pretty obviously going to vary between different groups and situations. I suppose in a frontier-type environment, it's probably inevitable that women would be expected to be much tougher than in a more secure society, but motherhood would still be an immensely important role.

Racism probably won't feature much in the setting, partially because fantasy racism is an immensely tired and overdone trope, but mostly because racism is largely a modern problem. For one thing, you only get serious racism problems once you have multiple ethnic groups living alongside each other, which is relatively rare in premodern societies. But also premodern people don't seem to have thought about race in anything like the way modern people do. Reading pre-modern sources, you get the impression that they regarded race as inseparable from culture and usually religion. All the bitterest ethnic conflicts in the premodern world seem to be motivated by religion or culture rather than race.

Quote from: SHARK on February 26, 2024, 04:40:03 AM
Greetings!

"WOMEN DIDN'T WORK BACK THEN!" Or, "WOMEN WERE NOT ALLOWED TO WORK BACK THEN!"

What fucking morons believe these ideas are true?

WOMEN have always worked various kinds of jobs, throughout history, EVERYWHERE.

For example, in Ancient Rome, normal, ordinary Roman women worked in the farms, worked as shepherd girls, they did laundry, cooked, worked as servants and waitresses, as well as dancers, musicians, and whores.

In the city of Rome, they also worked in Roman fast food restaurants, much like many modern women work in restaurants or as baristas at Starbucks. Roman women also worked in the many bathhouses, and also in hotels, inns, and bars--just like many women nowadays. Roman women also worked in different businesses and shops, crafting widgets. Sewing, tailoring, making clothes, bedding, utensils, and so on.

Roman women also loved working at the gladiator arenas, selling food, drinks, snacks--and of course, themselves as well.

There were a rare few women also involved in the upper echelons of business on occasion, working as consultants, interpreters, and that kind of thing.

Anyhow, the idea that "Women didn't work back then!" and similar pronouncements are just asinine, and full of jello. Either grossly ignorant and uneducated, or mouthing BS propaganda they have been spoon fed by Feminists in college.

Oh, yeah. And another reference--during the time of Moses, as he was wandering in the wilderness in exile from Egypt, he met his soon-to-be wife near a watering hole, tending to her flock of sheep. She was working hard, as she always did apparently, as a shepherd. Being a shepherd was a common job for many rural people, both men and women alike.

It is interesting how centuries later, far away in Rome, throughout Italia, there were Roman girls working as shepherds. Being a shepherd was an honourable profession, especially for rural people. There was different dynamics and status-symbols amongst rural and urban people back then--again, echoing to some of the dissonance and friction between rural and urban populations everywhere, even in our current day.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

And you are not going to a see a single woman farming in Northern Gaul by herself without a community.  She would be raped and enslaved about 30 minutes after a Gaul realized there was a lone woman and easy to capture.  You go to D&D they tend to pull the same kind of oddity with women.  Hell its bad enough when they do it with men, but usually they have some farm hands, I mean maybe they could survive a goblin assault, but the strong single woman farmer all by herself and her 3 kids, OK BOSS.  You can't forget how bad things get the further back in time from a lawlessness perspective.  In medieval europe the laws, punishments and torture was so sever because they had very limited prisons and sheriffs.  They were extreme to make the cost of committing a crime prohibitive, and men still raped, sacked, banditry etc.  And medieval Europe is D&D's setting but rather than rampaging vandals and goths they rampaging ogres and orcs.  Having unwalled towns (Phandalin) is cringe, I have to remake that map.  And in Phandalin the entry level adventure you've got the strong single mother and ther two kids farming.  I do a fair bit of mapping and world building so to me crap like that drives me nutters.  I just did an underdark village with huts, animal pens, beats of burden, storage etc so its believable to a degree with the small area I had available ont he map.  It's also heavily defended.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 27, 2024, 01:18:15 AMbeats of burden

Is that when Rappers sing about slavery?

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 27, 2024, 01:18:15 AM

Quote from: SHARK on February 26, 2024, 04:40:03 AM
Greetings!

"WOMEN DIDN'T WORK BACK THEN!" Or, "WOMEN WERE NOT ALLOWED TO WORK BACK THEN!"

What fucking morons believe these ideas are true?

WOMEN have always worked various kinds of jobs, throughout history, EVERYWHERE.

For example, in Ancient Rome, normal, ordinary Roman women worked in the farms, worked as shepherd girls, they did laundry, cooked, worked as servants and waitresses, as well as dancers, musicians, and whores.

In the city of Rome, they also worked in Roman fast food restaurants, much like many modern women work in restaurants or as baristas at Starbucks. Roman women also worked in the many bathhouses, and also in hotels, inns, and bars--just like many women nowadays. Roman women also worked in different businesses and shops, crafting widgets. Sewing, tailoring, making clothes, bedding, utensils, and so on.

Roman women also loved working at the gladiator arenas, selling food, drinks, snacks--and of course, themselves as well.

There were a rare few women also involved in the upper echelons of business on occasion, working as consultants, interpreters, and that kind of thing.

Anyhow, the idea that "Women didn't work back then!" and similar pronouncements are just asinine, and full of jello. Either grossly ignorant and uneducated, or mouthing BS propaganda they have been spoon fed by Feminists in college.

Oh, yeah. And another reference--during the time of Moses, as he was wandering in the wilderness in exile from Egypt, he met his soon-to-be wife near a watering hole, tending to her flock of sheep. She was working hard, as she always did apparently, as a shepherd. Being a shepherd was a common job for many rural people, both men and women alike.

It is interesting how centuries later, far away in Rome, throughout Italia, there were Roman girls working as shepherds. Being a shepherd was an honourable profession, especially for rural people. There was different dynamics and status-symbols amongst rural and urban people back then--again, echoing to some of the dissonance and friction between rural and urban populations everywhere, even in our current day.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

And you are not going to a see a single woman farming in Northern Gaul by herself without a community.  She would be raped and enslaved about 30 minutes after a Gaul realized there was a lone woman and easy to capture.  You go to D&D they tend to pull the same kind of oddity with women.  Hell its bad enough when they do it with men, but usually they have some farm hands, I mean maybe they could survive a goblin assault, but the strong single woman farmer all by herself and her 3 kids, OK BOSS.  You can't forget how bad things get the further back in time from a lawlessness perspective.  In medieval europe the laws, punishments and torture was so sever because they had very limited prisons and sheriffs.  They were extreme to make the cost of committing a crime prohibitive, and men still raped, sacked, banditry etc.  And medieval Europe is D&D's setting but rather than rampaging vandals and goths they rampaging ogres and orcs.  Having unwalled towns (Phandalin) is cringe, I have to remake that map.  And in Phandalin the entry level adventure you've got the strong single mother and ther two kids farming.  I do a fair bit of mapping and world building so to me crap like that drives me nutters.  I just did an underdark village with huts, animal pens, beats of burden, storage etc so its believable to a degree with the small area I had available ont he map.  It's also heavily defended.

Greetings!

Yeah, that's right, Honeydipperdavid!

Strong, single women, and single mommies rawrr rawrring wasn't part of reality. Certainly back in the ancient times, yeah, women needed their families and really depended upon the entire community for everything. Alone, women were as you said, moments away from being brutally raped and enslaved.

*Laughing* That scene you describe in a modern D&D module, where there is some single mommy with kids living on a farm aall alone. *Rolls eyes* How stupid and modernized BS is that? Amazing. Mind boggling to me, for sure.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on February 27, 2024, 10:22:08 AM
Yeah, that's right, Honeydipperdavid!

Strong, single women, and single mommies rawrr rawrring wasn't part of reality. Certainly back in the ancient times, yeah, women needed their families and really depended upon the entire community for everything. Alone, women were as you said, moments away from being brutally raped and enslaved.

Even today, genuine strong women are aware of female limitations. I remember going on foot patrol with an ex-military woman police officer. She had unarmed combat training but when we actually met the gang of dangerous guys (possibly Travellers) smoking weed in Tooting Covered Market, she was the sweetest thing.  You will get plenty of strong women in a medieval milieu, strong enough to know they need men. 

I don't even want to visit current year Seattle for a trip, much less play a game there. But yeah, I also don't expect fantasy fun time games to be super realistic either, but I do like some level of reality reflected in them, it is the unrealistic stuff that is supposed to make it feel different/magical/dangerous in the first place. When things get too unrealistic it becomes cartoonish and less fun.

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 25, 2024, 10:39:10 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on February 25, 2024, 10:23:42 PM"Racism was not a problem on the Discworld, because—what with trolls and dwarfs and so on—speciesism was more interesting. Black and white lived in perfect harmony and ganged up on green."
--Terry Pratchett: "Witches Abroad"

I always say that we will end racism the day we encounter hostile aliens. Because Apes are hardwired to fear and fight 'the other.' Once we have something very different to ourselves, we'll form ranks and racism will disappear like mist in the morning sun.

  I really, really doubt that.  I think there would be a sizeable faction of people who would side with aliens. 

I think a woman working on the farm without a protector is fine, as long as you realize she's probably a werewolf.  :-)

Quote from: zircher on February 27, 2024, 12:51:41 PM
I think a woman working on the farm without a protector is fine, as long as you realize she's probably a werewolf.  :-)

You may bring it up half-seriously, but this was generally my solution for handling female example PCs for my game. They all had something supernatural about them that let them be a viable adventurer; a human blessed with powerful elemental magic, an elven archer, an exiled psychopomp, a female-shaped robot, mystics of demonic ancestry, and a couple of mutants.

By contrast for men you had a dwarven inventor, a human roguish captain, a human knight, three types of beastman (a priest, an inventor, and a warrior), a winged elven knight, a gnomish trickster, an ice dragon, a fire giant, two male-shaped robots, a male warrior of demonic ancestry and a mutant warrior.