This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.

Author Topic: Current WoTC aside, what does your perfect D&D edition look like?  (Read 8011 times)

tenbones

  • Poobah of the D.O.N.G.
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6165
Current WoTC aside, what does your perfect D&D edition look like?
« Reply #60 on: June 26, 2020, 01:40:22 AM »
Quote from: ZetaRidley;1136247
I could dig it. So basically a modular magical system?

Basically. But I'd also make it scaleable within each tier as well as having options for each type to mix-and-match for different conceits. I'd make it as plug-and-play as possible.

Mishihari

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • M
  • Posts: 990
Current WoTC aside, what does your perfect D&D edition look like?
« Reply #61 on: June 26, 2020, 02:11:20 AM »
2E Rules and organization, with a bit of further cleanup, written In Gary's purple prose.

My actual favorite game is the one I'm writing right now, but while it is fantasy, it's definitely not D&D.  If I'm limited to D&D, then what I want is the above.

ZetaRidley

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 60
Current WoTC aside, what does your perfect D&D edition look like?
« Reply #62 on: June 26, 2020, 02:01:49 PM »
Quote from: Mishihari;1136394
2E Rules and organization, with a bit of further cleanup, written In Gary's purple prose.

My actual favorite game is the one I'm writing right now, but while it is fantasy, it's definitely not D&D.  If I'm limited to D&D, then what I want is the above.


Interesting. Any details?

Mishihari

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • M
  • Posts: 990
Current WoTC aside, what does your perfect D&D edition look like?
« Reply #63 on: June 27, 2020, 05:18:28 PM »
Quote from: ZetaRidley;1136522
Interesting. Any details?


Sure.  I don't know if it's particularly interesting at the level of detail I can provide in a few minutes, but I don't mind sharing.

I'm writing it for my 11 year old son and his friends, which means I want it to be fast to play, easy to learn, simple in its math, forgiving to beginners, and emphasize modes of play they enjoy in their video games, like stealth and sniping.  They're smart kids, but I don't see any real benefit in using the level of complexity found in many games.  I also want to include meaningful mechanical athletic, chase, and investigative challenges and indulge my personal prejudices as to how a game should work.

There are character "talents" which are similar to D&D ability scores but based on what you do with them rather than personal description like "strength."  They are Attack(physical), Defense(all), Perception(investigative, combat, and technical like medical), Deception (stealth, disguise, sleight of hand), Athletics, and Magic.  It's a skill rather than class based game.  There are no limits on what skills you can take, but the nature of the talents encourage the same type of specialization and division of labor you see in class based games.

As much as I dislike hit points, I included a similar mechanic because they make the game forgiving.  To make the math fractionally quicker though, I reversed it.  A PC has "health" and the player tracks "damage."  If damage exceeds health they become "wounded" (you can't die from a single attack) which is pretty disabled.  Further events can cause PC death.

"Control zones" in combat are pretty important.  In a fight you can prevent other characters from moving through the space around you.  Various mechanics are built around defeating or reinforcing this mechanic.

"Stamina" and "fatigue" work like health and damage, but fatigue is accumulated from athletic actions and special combat maneuvers.  If fatigue exceeds stamina, you become "exhausted" and take a penalty on these actions and any further fatigue is counted as damage.  This lets me create meaningful athletic challenges.  Yes you can climb that cliff, but there are various routes, and you should make some good decisions or you're going to be too tired to use "furious attack" when you get to the top.  And becoming exhausted halfway up is bad too.  The penalties are bad enough that you could fall.  I spent a lot of time trying to make activities like travel, swimming, and mounted combat both realistic and fun.  I was surprised by how hard this was.

"Magic" and "power" work like stamina and fatigue.  I'm currently working on the spell list, but spells will probably come in three flavors, those based on modern beliefs about paranormal activities, shamanistic abilities, and Avatar based elemental spells.  (We all like Avatar the Last Airbender)

Actions are resolved by skill checks, talent+skill+d6+mods, with a catch-up mechanic.  Any time you roll a natural 1 you get a luck point that can be added to any later roll.  Defense in combat is active, with a choice of how to defend and a roll.  The mods for activities like stealth can get pretty complicated to allow depth of play, but can be ignored if you're not into that.

The setting is still pretty nebulous, but I'm leaning towards combining the Powder Mage series, Wrede's Frontier Magic, Jurassic Park, and post-bioapocolypse.

I think that covers the high points.  I'll probably share it here in toto someday for feedback and to see if anyone is willing to playtest it.

Steven Mitchell

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • S
  • Posts: 3774
Current WoTC aside, what does your perfect D&D edition look like?
« Reply #64 on: June 27, 2020, 06:21:01 PM »
Mishihari,

I'd probably be interested in play testing that.  There is a lot of similar design points with my system, though mine is d100 not D&D derived and perhaps more complex around the edges.  I've got roll under skill, but overall skill is talent+skill+mods+a few other of those additional complexities for example.  I've also got a 3 track hit point replacement, that distinguishes accumulating damage compared against the various "vital" thresholds.  My goals are similar too, except I am going for something that sounds a bit more fantastical in the basics.  Magic is completely different, though. :)

I've spent a lot of time integrating craft skills into the core system.  I was also surprised by hard this was. :D

Mishihari

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • M
  • Posts: 990
Current WoTC aside, what does your perfect D&D edition look like?
« Reply #65 on: June 29, 2020, 04:30:11 AM »
Thanks, Steven.  I'll plan to get in touch once the game is ready for an initial play by others.  If you have similar goals and wouldn't mind, I might want to look at yours for ideas as well.

And I found it educational that for some aspects of game design it was challenging to find mechanics that even satisfied myself.  It's so much easier to complain about a game's "obviously" broken mechanics than it is to do it yourself and get it right.

Steven Mitchell

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • S
  • Posts: 3774
Current WoTC aside, what does your perfect D&D edition look like?
« Reply #66 on: June 29, 2020, 09:13:53 AM »
Quote from: Mishihari;1136908
Thanks, Steven.  I'll plan to get in touch once the game is ready for an initial play by others.  If you have similar goals and wouldn't mind, I might want to look at yours for ideas as well.

And I found it educational that for some aspects of game design it was challenging to find mechanics that even satisfied myself.  It's so much easier to complain about a game's "obviously" broken mechanics than it is to do it yourself and get it right.

I can usually find a mechanic that satisfies me, though there a handful of cases that are exactly as you say.  My big design issue is the way every good mechanic closes off a piece of the design space, such that some other aspect of the game is now effectively off the table.  This is part of what I mean when I say my early insurmountable problem in my design was that I was trying to design three different, incompatible games as one game.  When I stopped doing that and picked a design, it got much easier. :D

tenbones

  • Poobah of the D.O.N.G.
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6165
Current WoTC aside, what does your perfect D&D edition look like?
« Reply #67 on: June 29, 2020, 10:04:35 AM »
See? This is the "problem". When someone says "What is your favorite version of D&D?"...

I've said this before - "What IS D&D?"

 For me, it is:

1) a flavor of mechanics that describes a style of play
2) an emergent genre of fantasy that is unique to itself *because* the genre is ultimately informed by the mechanics underpinning a variety of inspirations from other fantasy/historical/gaming system mechanics (war gaming) references.

Which brings me back to - "what are we trying to describe by D&D"?

So my response is trying to resolve #1. Because #2 is an emergent phenomenon that can be emulated with any system (which will produce their own emergent differences *because* the mechanics are different in varying ways.

If we're willing to toss #1 out of the window and "rebuild D&D"... then I'd say we're not really talking about D&D and we're talking about emulating the emergent qualities of D&D-settings or D&D-style play (Casters, Warriors, Healers, Thieves - doing those things , in D&D-conflated engagement set-pieces like Dungeons, Mazes, filled with monsters, etc.) Because this cat is skinned in a LOT of different ways and is done so routinely the moment we play in any fantasy-game that isn't D&D specifically.

David Johansen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • D
  • Posts: 6222
Current WoTC aside, what does your perfect D&D edition look like?
« Reply #68 on: June 29, 2020, 10:41:13 AM »
Well, yeah, exactly, the reason I wrote Dark Passages in the first place was to define what I saw as the core elements that make a game D&D thanks to an argument that happened on the rpg site once upon a time.  I'm thinking about using a version of it as the acceptable format / middle ground for a Dragon style gaming magazine which would aim to be 50% D&D compatible content.  I think that there's a real need for that kind of central house organ, it's been tried repeatedly but nobody's managed to really pull it off.
Fantasy Adventure Comic, games, and more http://www.uncouthsavage.com

Rhedyn
BANNED

  • BANNED
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • ?
  • Posts: 1101
Current WoTC aside, what does your perfect D&D edition look like?
« Reply #69 on: June 29, 2020, 02:12:03 PM »
Quote from: tenbones;1136929
See? This is the "problem". When someone says "What is your favorite version of D&D?"...

I've said this before - "What IS D&D?"

 For me, it is:

1) a flavor of mechanics that describes a style of play
2) an emergent genre of fantasy that is unique to itself *because* the genre is ultimately informed by the mechanics underpinning a variety of inspirations from other fantasy/historical/gaming system mechanics (war gaming) references.

Which brings me back to - "what are we trying to describe by D&D"?

So my response is trying to resolve #1. Because #2 is an emergent phenomenon that can be emulated with any system (which will produce their own emergent differences *because* the mechanics are different in varying ways.

If we're willing to toss #1 out of the window and "rebuild D&D"... then I'd say we're not really talking about D&D and we're talking about emulating the emergent qualities of D&D-settings or D&D-style play (Casters, Warriors, Healers, Thieves - doing those things , in D&D-conflated engagement set-pieces like Dungeons, Mazes, filled with monsters, etc.) Because this cat is skinned in a LOT of different ways and is done so routinely the moment we play in any fantasy-game that isn't D&D specifically.

For me D&D has attributes, classes, HP, and the d20. It implies limited mathematical swing and a certain "steady" quality to the gameplay, for lack of a better word.

If you toss out what is mechanically D&D, then the question becomes: "What is you favorite RPG?"

ZetaRidley

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 60
Current WoTC aside, what does your perfect D&D edition look like?
« Reply #70 on: June 29, 2020, 03:22:49 PM »
Quote from: tenbones;1136929
See? This is the "problem". When someone says "What is your favorite version of D&D?"...

I've said this before - "What IS D&D?"

 For me, it is:

1) a flavor of mechanics that describes a style of play
2) an emergent genre of fantasy that is unique to itself *because* the genre is ultimately informed by the mechanics underpinning a variety of inspirations from other fantasy/historical/gaming system mechanics (war gaming) references.

Which brings me back to - "what are we trying to describe by D&D"?

So my response is trying to resolve #1. Because #2 is an emergent phenomenon that can be emulated with any system (which will produce their own emergent differences *because* the mechanics are different in varying ways.

If we're willing to toss #1 out of the window and "rebuild D&D"... then I'd say we're not really talking about D&D and we're talking about emulating the emergent qualities of D&D-settings or D&D-style play (Casters, Warriors, Healers, Thieves - doing those things , in D&D-conflated engagement set-pieces like Dungeons, Mazes, filled with monsters, etc.) Because this cat is skinned in a LOT of different ways and is done so routinely the moment we play in any fantasy-game that isn't D&D specifically.

This is a good way of putting it. See, I've been kicking around just making my own game since 5th edition isn't really working out, 3rd my group is kinda leary of having spent most of our teenage years on it, and 1st and 2nd isn't really our thing. The guys are big on skill systems and developing characters using them, its kinda hard to describe.

To me, D&D is more of a vibe and shared lore. When I think D&D, I think of the artwork across the editions (except for 5th really) and the lore. I think of the planes and settings like Greyhawk, Planescape, Darksun, Forgotten Realms, etc. I think of Drow and the Underdark, Red Wizards, and the Pantheon. Tiamat and the Gods. I guess for me its more of the feeling, lore and vibe. Mechanics, mostly I think of the d20. I guess we grew up playing mostly Palladium games and 3rd edition, so I'm used to really cruchy games. It really depends on the era that you started playing I think, theres slight differences that change things, thats pretty obvious in the differences between a 2nd edition game and a 3rd or 5th. But I'm more into the lore and harvesting ideas for my own games above all, regardless of edition. I have my preferred, obviously.

tenbones

  • Poobah of the D.O.N.G.
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6165
Current WoTC aside, what does your perfect D&D edition look like?
« Reply #71 on: June 29, 2020, 03:38:38 PM »
Quote from: ZetaRidley;1136979
This is a good way of putting it. See, I've been kicking around just making my own game since 5th edition isn't really working out, 3rd my group is kinda leary of having spent most of our teenage years on it, and 1st and 2nd isn't really our thing. The guys are big on skill systems and developing characters using them, its kinda hard to describe.

To me, D&D is more of a vibe and shared lore. When I think D&D, I think of the artwork across the editions (except for 5th really) and the lore. I think of the planes and settings like Greyhawk, Planescape, Darksun, Forgotten Realms, etc. I think of Drow and the Underdark, Red Wizards, and the Pantheon. Tiamat and the Gods. I guess for me its more of the feeling, lore and vibe. Mechanics, mostly I think of the d20. I guess we grew up playing mostly Palladium games and 3rd edition, so I'm used to really cruchy games. It really depends on the era that you started playing I think, theres slight differences that change things, thats pretty obvious in the differences between a 2nd edition game and a 3rd or 5th. But I'm more into the lore and harvesting ideas for my own games above all, regardless of edition. I have my preferred, obviously.

Then I say welcome to your Great Liberation.

That moment when you intrinsically know what you *LOVE* dearly about what the D&D game has given you - and you begin to realize that those ideas transcend the rules of any Edition. But that realization brings with it the responsibility of curating those experiences and replicating them in new ways, maybe with new systems, where you'll hopefully learn more about what you really loved about what you believe D&D is... and finally make it your own. Not what others demand of your engagement.

Even better - you've discovered RPGsite and are engaging with your fellow travelers on this road that literally represent nearly every possible way to exploring "D&D" - even via methods you may not have ever considered (or even like!) Every edition has its fans here. Plus you have your OSR Wonks here, syncretic weirdos that take what we can agree is "D&D" and translated via the lens other games with results that might surprise (or disgust) you.

Me personally, I'm with you. I love the lore, and I've long made it my own. My Forgotten Realms, Dark Sun, Spelljammer, Kara-Tur, Al-Qadim, and everything else is tweaked to my own needs. And these days, I use Savage Worlds, and I've never looked back. And I'm confident in the hands of a competent GM, *any* system worth its salt can "do D&D". You've already started by naming the things you love. All you gotta do now is pick the mechanics that represent those elements best at your table!

You got this!

tenbones

  • Poobah of the D.O.N.G.
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6165
Current WoTC aside, what does your perfect D&D edition look like?
« Reply #72 on: June 29, 2020, 03:50:41 PM »
Quote from: Rhedyn;1136967
For me D&D has attributes, classes, HP, and the d20. It implies limited mathematical swing and a certain "steady" quality to the gameplay, for lack of a better word.

If you toss out what is mechanically D&D, then the question becomes: "What is you favorite RPG?"


I disagree. I know what you're saying, and I'm down with that.

But case in point - I use Savage Worlds to run D&D. It has literally *none* of those things you cite... yet it does "D&D"... but in a different flavor. But that's because I enforce the setting conceits on the rules - not the other way around.

Feels like D&D, plays a little faster, slicker, more "cinematic", but we dungeon-crawl, hex-crawl, fight hordes of evil, daring-do, swashbuckle, etc. just like always. Only now a lot of the class stuff is merely social-stuff. And it works. At no point have I had any desire to run any other edition of D&D. Despite my deep love of 1e/2e in particular. Subjective? Sure. But my point is that any GM with a verve for a set of mechanics can replicate what they love about D&D without being forced to use D&D. I mean... I've heard of people doing Rolemaster Greyhawk... which is mind-boggling to me because of my lack of system-mastery (but I'd play the hell out of it).

TL/DR - The GM makes the magic happen. "D&D" is nothing more than the expression of some ideas abstracted by mechanics. And you can concoct alternate mechanics to do the same abstractions at will. The key is making it fun at the table. That's where the sauce is.

ZetaRidley

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 60
Current WoTC aside, what does your perfect D&D edition look like?
« Reply #73 on: June 29, 2020, 03:57:58 PM »
Quote from: tenbones;1136983
Then I say welcome to your Great Liberation.

That moment when you intrinsically know what you *LOVE* dearly about what the D&D game has given you - and you begin to realize that those ideas transcend the rules of any Edition. But that realization brings with it the responsibility of curating those experiences and replicating them in new ways, maybe with new systems, where you'll hopefully learn more about what you really loved about what you believe D&D is... and finally make it your own. Not what others demand of your engagement.

Even better - you've discovered RPGsite and are engaging with your fellow travelers on this road that literally represent nearly every possible way to exploring "D&D" - even via methods you may not have ever considered (or even like!) Every edition has its fans here. Plus you have your OSR Wonks here, syncretic weirdos that take what we can agree is "D&D" and translated via the lens other games with results that might surprise (or disgust) you.

Me personally, I'm with you. I love the lore, and I've long made it my own. My Forgotten Realms, Dark Sun, Spelljammer, Kara-Tur, Al-Qadim, and everything else is tweaked to my own needs. And these days, I use Savage Worlds, and I've never looked back. And I'm confident in the hands of a competent GM, *any* system worth its salt can "do D&D". You've already started by naming the things you love. All you gotta do now is pick the mechanics that represent those elements best at your table!

You got this!

Ha, thanks. Probably what I'm going with is my Palladium System rewrite. Percentile Skills, Strike, parry and dodge for combat stuff. Number of actions on your turn. All characters start with 2 action "points." If you want to react when its not your turn, parry or dodge an incoming attack, you have to have saved an action point from your previous turn. Saving one action allows you two reacitons when its not your turn. Spell casting and psionics still based on points. Saving throws brought down to just 3 core ones. It was pretty fun when we played it last year, did a Rifts game and made a "players handbook" for Rifts that is all kinds of copy right infrigment, so. Probably do the same for a fantasy game, maybe steal some spells and stuff from D&D. Palladium Fantasy had a major lack of a real "cleric" kinda thing, so thats def needed. I took a leaflet from 3rd and 5th edition and had a class advancement table with increasing values, Good abilities cap at +10, mid tier cap at +7, low at +5 and class abilities per level and will probably continue with that. Class abilities were also earned per level, but in palladium fashion basically all of them were received by level 3-5, with increasing potency as levels were gained, levels capped at 15. Here is a couple of captures to get an idea. https://imgur.com/a/JogEDXf

I've thought about savage worlds, I might have to give it a whirl some day. It didn't click with me the last time I read it, but I can see the appeal. I thought about Fantasy Craft, its close to what I was looking for, but when you have players that already like a system, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Rhedyn
BANNED

  • BANNED
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • ?
  • Posts: 1101
Current WoTC aside, what does your perfect D&D edition look like?
« Reply #74 on: June 29, 2020, 05:23:37 PM »
Quote from: tenbones;1136986
I disagree. I know what you're saying, and I'm down with that.

But case in point - I use Savage Worlds to run D&D. It has literally *none* of those things you cite... yet it does "D&D"... but in a different flavor. But that's because I enforce the setting conceits on the rules - not the other way around.

Feels like D&D, plays a little faster, slicker, more "cinematic", but we dungeon-crawl, hex-crawl, fight hordes of evil, daring-do, swashbuckle, etc. just like always. Only now a lot of the class stuff is merely social-stuff. And it works. At no point have I had any desire to run any other edition of D&D. Despite my deep love of 1e/2e in particular. Subjective? Sure. But my point is that any GM with a verve for a set of mechanics can replicate what they love about D&D without being forced to use D&D. I mean... I've heard of people doing Rolemaster Greyhawk... which is mind-boggling to me because of my lack of system-mastery (but I'd play the hell out of it).

TL/DR - The GM makes the magic happen. "D&D" is nothing more than the expression of some ideas abstracted by mechanics. And you can concoct alternate mechanics to do the same abstractions at will. The key is making it fun at the table. That's where the sauce is.


To me that is playing in a fantasy setting with a traditional RPG. I love Savage Worlds for fantasy and even, as some people call it, the "D&D fantasy" sub genre. But, people also do that with GURPS or FUDGE. I wouldn't call any of those my favorite version of D&D. Hell my favorite "D&D" games are not even fantasy RPGs.