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Author Topic: Current WoTC aside, what does your perfect D&D edition look like?  (Read 3373 times)

ZetaRidley

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Current WoTC aside, what does your perfect D&D edition look like?
« Reply #45 on: June 24, 2020, 09:29:40 am »
Quote from: Spinachcat;1135924
We already have D&D Nirvana. It's called the OSR and 3PP clones.

Whatever flavor of D&D you want, somebody is selling it on DriveThruRPG. There's exactly ZERO reasons to feel stuck with whatever WotC is trying to ram down our throat because we live in the Golden Age of RPG options.

Here's a list of retroclones. It's not even current and there's dozens to check out.
https://retroroleplaying.com/retro-clones/

Anybody have a link to a current list? I'm sure there are 5e clones by now.

That would be nice. It's interesting because we had a session last night and after playing fifth edition for for nine months everybody agreed that it wasn't really resonating. The problem is we're also not really OSR guys. Back in the day we mostly played modified Palladium and third edition. Kind of thinking about going back to Pathfinder first edition or some other game I checked out 13th age and eh. Pathfinder second edition looks yeah. Worse.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2020, 01:24:35 pm by ZetaRidley »

spon

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Current WoTC aside, what does your perfect D&D edition look like?
« Reply #46 on: June 24, 2020, 10:13:54 am »
Probably mostly 5E - pared back to 1st ed sensibilities. Specifically, I like the class progression in 5E although I'd take out the magic subclasses in non-magic classes. Use the 1st ed spell system, but allow cantrips (at, say 1 cantrip per level per short rest). Keep deity-specific stuff for clerics and mage schools.  
Short rests are 1/day, long rests are "sleep" and there are no "hit dice" to heal. You'd get 1hp/level per night of full rest (at a hotel for instance - not camping in the woods). Don't care whether AC goes up or down.
I'd have to think up a way to nerf the "insta-food/rest/heal" spells.
I Kind of like actions but happy to fix initiative and spell-casting interactions.
Save or die would come back. And level/ability drain would be permanent (until fixed magically - with a suitably high level spell).

I'm sure there's more, but that's what stands out.

KingCheops

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Current WoTC aside, what does your perfect D&D edition look like?
« Reply #47 on: June 24, 2020, 12:04:18 pm »
Earthdawn - RedBrick limited Classic Edition (the big red books)

VisionStorm

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Current WoTC aside, what does your perfect D&D edition look like?
« Reply #48 on: June 24, 2020, 01:08:01 pm »
Quote from: Shasarak;1135917
Yes and no.  They do try and cover three or four different archetypes with each class so at first glance it can appear to be bloated but when you are leveling up from first level then it is usually pretty straightforward.  Choose a level 1 feat from a list of four, then choose a level 4 feat from a list of four adds upto around ten pages to cover 20 levels.

Now the real problem starts when you want to find where a particular rule is within the book.  Honestly I dont know who their editor was but it makes the ADnD Dungeon Master Guide look well organised in comparison.


Yeah, I went back to glance at the classes and can see what you mean. The archetypes add extra padding to the class descriptions, plus each class seems to have their own unique feats with entries right in the class descriptions, which extends things considerably per class section. And the book's organization, with more than 600 freaking pages and no detailed table of contents (just start of chapter page, and that's it!) doesn't help.

But even then, I would say that classes are too "bloated" for my preference. Each class seems to get multiple special features, often on the same level--much more than 5e--and I already consider 5e to be too bloated for me. Though, I can see how from a player point of view just selecting one feat here or there per level might not be too much, but from a more macro level--specially from a GM point of view--when it comes to tracking and remembering what each class gets, and what each of its seemingly endless list of specialized feats does, it's too much.

I remember back in the day playing 2e, things were so simple I could remember what each class got without even looking at the books. If I wanted to improvise an encounter with class levels I could do it at the drop of a hat. Now every class comes packed with minor, seemingly random features at odd level intervals that are hard to keep track of.

I compare them to old D&D, with its simpler and more straightforward class structure, and easy to remember features, and wish I just had old school classes, but with periodic extra feats for customization, rather than every single level packed with odd features that break the rules in minor ways, provide some innocuous conditional benefit, or even stuff I would normally consider just standard combat options available to anyone, like a lot of the 5e Fighter/Battlemaster's "maneuvers" (disarm, trip, etc.).

Quote from: Omega;1135972
One of the problems with these sorts of discussions is that some people just want something that isnt D&D with the D&D label slapped on. 4e out the gate was pretty much that.


Yeah, but the thread title ask what does YOUR perfect edition of D&D look like, not "limit yourself to some fixed preconception of what D&D is". So the topic already opens itself to flights of fancy, and it's not like WotC is gonna scout this thread for the next edition of D&D. Plus like I mentioned in my first post, I'm not sure what "D&D" even is anymore, given how much it's changed between editions. What is even the standard if we were just gonna limit ourselves to just "pure" D&D?

Quote from: Zalman;1135980
Like what? Kick down!


I haven't gotten too deep yet, but some of the stuff I liked was adding multiple ranks to Proficiencies (trained, expert, master or legendary), allowing you to improve your skills, and all ability scores starting at 10 by default, then improving in increments of 2 throughout character creation based on your Ancestry (race), Background, and Class selections, as well as a handful of extra improvements of your choice at the end (rolling scores is optional).

All Ancestries and Classes are also packed with specialized Feats, which are a bit too much for my tastes, like I mentioned above, but I can see the appeal for them and some of them can be interesting nonetheless. You also get extra Ancestry feats at fixed level intervals (every 5 levels IIRC) so you can also customize and improve your character based on their race. Characters also get Skill specific feats at certain levels to ensure skill development, so you can make some skill improvements without sacrificing your regular feats, which you could use for class abilities or other benefits instead.

And there's probably more stuff hidden in this gigantic 642 page tome I haven't gone through yet.

LiferGamer

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Current WoTC aside, what does your perfect D&D edition look like?
« Reply #49 on: June 24, 2020, 02:27:12 pm »
Quote from: spon;1135987
Probably mostly 5E - pared back to 1st ed sensibilities. Specifically, I like the class progression in 5E although I'd take out the magic subclasses in non-magic classes. Use the 1st ed spell system, but allow cantrips (at, say 1 cantrip per level per short rest). Keep deity-specific stuff for clerics and mage schools.  
Short rests are 1/day, long rests are "sleep" and there are no "hit dice" to heal. You'd get 1hp/level per night of full rest (at a hotel for instance - not camping in the woods). Don't care whether AC goes up or down.
I'd have to think up a way to nerf the "insta-food/rest/heal" spells.
I Kind of like actions but happy to fix initiative and spell-casting interactions.
Save or die would come back. And level/ability drain would be permanent (until fixed magically - with a suitably high level spell).

I'm sure there's more, but that's what stands out.


spon's tastes align with mine, I kinda like 5e's advantage/disadvantage mechanism and slight preference to AC going up.
Would love the addition of backing off on skill checks for everything, or at least shrinking the list of skills/reducing checks.  

Skill based games are great.  Level based games are great.  Skill-heavy level based games draaaaaag.  

I've grown away from skill based games in general...
If its not the Palladium problems of a skill for everything, have fun updating your sheet, it's GURPS, yeah, well too bad you're experienced soldier doesn't know certain things because you forgot to grab it.
Your Forgotten Realms was my first The Last Jedi.

If the party is gonna die, they want to be riding and blasting/hacking away at a separate one of Tiamat's heads as she plummets towards earth with broken wings while Solars and Planars sing.

VisionStorm

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Current WoTC aside, what does your perfect D&D edition look like?
« Reply #50 on: June 24, 2020, 03:43:43 pm »
Quote from: LiferGamer;1136040
spon's tastes align with mine, I kinda like 5e's advantage/disadvantage mechanism and slight preference to AC going up.
Would love the addition of backing off on skill checks for everything, or at least shrinking the list of skills/reducing checks.  

Skill based games are great.  Level based games are great.  Skill-heavy level based games draaaaaag.  

I've grown away from skill based games in general...
If its not the Palladium problems of a skill for everything, have fun updating your sheet, it's GURPS, yeah, well too bad you're experienced soldier doesn't know certain things because you forgot to grab it.


This is an issue with skill-based systems in general, partly because they tend to focus on specialized tasks rather than core functions (like combat, academic knowledge, interaction, stealth, general awareness, etc.), and leaving the specifics to specializations or special traits, like feats. So you end up having to choose between different variations of the same thing, then leveling them individually, which complicates character creation and spreads your resources. You could probably reduce skill functions to just Athletics, Combat, Crafting, Evasion (Dex saves and maybe AC), Fortitude (Str/Con saves), Interaction, Lore, Medicine, Perception, Piloting, Technology, Stealth and Willpower.

If you want to draw distinctions you could split Combat into melee and ranged. Casting could also be added to the list, if you want to spells through skill checks, but it could just be folded as a function of Lore (wizard spell casting) or Willpower (priest and sorcerer spells or powers, like Psionics) for purposes of making ability checks, which would be my preference.

Another issue is character creation systems that fail to incorporate character background into the process. Which is a common issue with point-buy systems that just give you a bunch of points and expect you to build everything from scratch and remember to sacrifice points from your limited number to buy background stuff as well. I remember every time we played modern Earth-based settings back in the 90's someone in the group always had to have a Japanese character, and forget to pick english as a staring language. This sort of stuff should just be specified as part of character creation through background selections and such, similar to how 5e does it now, then let players spend any excess points however they want.

LiferGamer

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Current WoTC aside, what does your perfect D&D edition look like?
« Reply #51 on: June 24, 2020, 04:12:50 pm »
Quote
This sort of stuff should just be specified as part of character creation through background selections and such, similar to how 5e does it now, then let players spend any excess points however they want.
ot
Every time I go back to GURPS, like your comment on 5e backgrounds, I make partial Point packages, here's your skills for being a Native of X culture in campaign year, then by the boot camp package, then buy your specialty package and spend the rest.

I've also been known to use the GURPS rules where it's one skill Science! And lump skills together which I would prefer to use in a D&D type system.  Skills could be Fieldcraft, Subterfuge, Religion, Arcane and a handful of others.  You get one for your class and can buy into another one, kind of like a refined version of proficiencies from earlier Editions.
Your Forgotten Realms was my first The Last Jedi.

If the party is gonna die, they want to be riding and blasting/hacking away at a separate one of Tiamat's heads as she plummets towards earth with broken wings while Solars and Planars sing.

RandyB

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Current WoTC aside, what does your perfect D&D edition look like?
« Reply #52 on: June 24, 2020, 04:43:03 pm »
Quote from: LiferGamer;1136056
ot
Every time I go back to GURPS, like your comment on 5e backgrounds, I make partial Point packages, here's your skills for being a Native of X culture in campaign year, then by the boot camp package, then buy your specialty package and spend the rest.

I've also been known to use the GURPS rules where it's one skill Science! And lump skills together which I would prefer to use in a D&D type system.  Skills could be Fieldcraft, Subterfuge, Religion, Arcane and a handful of others.  You get one for your class and can buy into another one, kind of like a refined version of proficiencies from earlier Editions.

Excellent example of how a good GM uses the toolkit of any game to get the result they want.

Crusader X

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Current WoTC aside, what does your perfect D&D edition look like?
« Reply #53 on: June 24, 2020, 07:35:34 pm »
Quote from: S'mon;1135821
1e Adnd with ascending AC and to-hit, the S&W single save, and maybe 5e's advantage mechanic.


Yes please.  Somebody should make this game.
Book & Blade – my free Knave hack

GeekEclectic

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Current WoTC aside, what does your perfect D&D edition look like?
« Reply #54 on: June 24, 2020, 11:22:59 pm »
Honestly, probably something like Fantasy Craft. To me, it just worked. I'd definitely make one change, though. HP and save DCs would get an i to x progression like everything else on the NPC sheet. That they didn't do this in the first place will forever baffle me. Other than that, it's mostly familiar; it has dragons, giant tree people, and flying characters as PC options without destroying all semblance of balance; and the math underpinning it isn't absolute shit, so that's a plus.
It's not rocket science; but when you're an idiot - everything is rocket science. Right? - tenbones

ZetaRidley

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Current WoTC aside, what does your perfect D&D edition look like?
« Reply #55 on: June 25, 2020, 11:33:19 am »
Quote from: GeekEclectic;1136156
Honestly, probably something like Fantasy Craft. To me, it just worked. I'd definitely make one change, though. HP and save DCs would get an i to x progression like everything else on the NPC sheet. That they didn't do this in the first place will forever baffle me. Other than that, it's mostly familiar; it has dragons, giant tree people, and flying characters as PC options without destroying all semblance of balance; and the math underpinning it isn't absolute shit, so that's a plus.

I think I just found the game I want to use for fantasy campaigns with my group. Thanks.

Arnwolf666

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Current WoTC aside, what does your perfect D&D edition look like?
« Reply #56 on: June 25, 2020, 11:35:43 am »
2E rules with some 5E options. 5E is the best rogue ever in my opinion. Use 13th age healing. A few more options for the fighter. And paladin smiting. This and I am happy. Dial back the cleric damage spells and stop making the Druid a shapechanger class.

tenbones

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Current WoTC aside, what does your perfect D&D edition look like?
« Reply #57 on: June 25, 2020, 11:44:39 am »
I love FC.

My D&D would look like... a three-tiered edition where each tier would stand on its own, OR could be used in succession.

Tenbones Nu-Basic D&D
2e-like chassis
10-lvl progression class design - The assumption being at 10th level you're a hero. So each level would mean something in terms of abilities. XP progression would be *slow*.
Magic: Vancian, Spell Points, and Skill-based systems in play simultaneously. I'd use them to make distinctions between Arcane (Magic Users), Divine, and "hybrids" like Bards and Rangers (for those that want spellcasting Rangers).
Defense value based on combat skills
Armor mitigates damage
HP - revamped to include wound-states. Damage output would require a retooling of weapon/spell/monster damage values. Lower numbers would be encouraged to ease math-curve.
Feats - Fill in abilities that would flesh out styles of combat/magic/non-combat related abilities (Stealth, Survival, Social stuff) that directly impacts play. They would be meaty, and require commitment to acquire and engage in.

Tenbones Nu-Advanced D&D
Levels 11-15
Super-human progression of TBBasicD&D.
Would extrapolate on bringing all the classes and spells, and Feats from Basic into the clearly super-human/cinematic zone.

Tenbones Immortal Rules
Levels 16-20
Demi-god play - Establishing/reinforcing the will of super-powers within the game. Crazy epic over-the-top, Clash of the Titans type stuff. Think Primal Order kinda stuff.

Supplemental material
Mass Combat Rules
Domain play - would extend from small organizations to village, city, nation-state level play.

Everything else would be setting specific.

ZetaRidley

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Current WoTC aside, what does your perfect D&D edition look like?
« Reply #58 on: June 25, 2020, 12:31:59 pm »
Quote from: tenbones;1136230
I love FC.

My D&D would look like... a three-tiered edition where each tier would stand on its own, OR could be used in succession.

Tenbones Nu-Basic D&D
2e-like chassis
10-lvl progression class design - The assumption being at 10th level you're a hero. So each level would mean something in terms of abilities. XP progression would be *slow*.
Magic: Vancian, Spell Points, and Skill-based systems in play simultaneously. I'd use them to make distinctions between Arcane (Magic Users), Divine, and "hybrids" like Bards and Rangers (for those that want spellcasting Rangers).
Defense value based on combat skills
Armor mitigates damage
HP - revamped to include wound-states. Damage output would require a retooling of weapon/spell/monster damage values. Lower numbers would be encouraged to ease math-curve.
Feats - Fill in abilities that would flesh out styles of combat/magic/non-combat related abilities (Stealth, Survival, Social stuff) that directly impacts play. They would be meaty, and require commitment to acquire and engage in.

Tenbones Nu-Advanced D&D
Levels 11-15
Super-human progression of TBBasicD&D.
Would extrapolate on bringing all the classes and spells, and Feats from Basic into the clearly super-human/cinematic zone.

Tenbones Immortal Rules
Levels 16-20
Demi-god play - Establishing/reinforcing the will of super-powers within the game. Crazy epic over-the-top, Clash of the Titans type stuff. Think Primal Order kinda stuff.

Supplemental material
Mass Combat Rules
Domain play - would extend from small organizations to village, city, nation-state level play.

Everything else would be setting specific.

I could dig it. So basically a modular magical system?

Omega

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Current WoTC aside, what does your perfect D&D edition look like?
« Reply #59 on: June 25, 2020, 04:20:01 pm »
Port in the modular "magic" system from d20 Gamma World. They may call it naotech. But it functions as magic really.