Back when I was running the Port Blacksand campaign I used to have a running joke that anytime someone was really violently massacred in the public streets (an almost daily event in Blacksand), A couple of Lord Azzur's Goblin guards would show up in trenchcoats and examine the various remains, drawing little circles around them with chalk for no reason they could really grasp; these were "CSI: Port Blacksand".

Meanwhile, has anyone ever run a "detective" style game in a big fantasy city?

Or even in another historical era previous to the 19th century?

RPGPundit

I finally have Ptolus, and it's actally the first thing to come to mind to use it for. Of course a magic system with fire-and-forget type Divination spells doesn't seem particularly suited for it though, so my first impresion that D&D itself would be out. Anyone have any D20 suggestions, or others for that matter?

EDIT: Maybe 'mundane' or near mundane is the way to go?  I'll have to see how deep magic runs into the setting.

Quote from: blakkieOf course a magic system with fire-and-forget type Divination spells doesn't seem particularly suited for it though, so my first impresion that D&D itself would be out. Anyone have any D20 suggestions, or others for that matter?

What's bothering you, the fire-and-forget nature or the fact that you can have pretty powerful and plot-destroying divination spell?
F 'n F works pretty well by making some stuff more time-consuming ("We'll have to wait for the lab report" -> "We'll have to wait 'til my morning prayers")

And most divination spells have similar spells to foil them. So if both sides have a high power level, you'll get by. If you want a down-and-out Night Watch hunting low-life scum (or non-magic serial killers), then you'll have problems with the system.

You could get by just nixing some spells, and not just divinations. Some magic allows perpetrators to commit their crime to easily, so you can't solve the case by footwork alone...

CoC D20 could be a nice option. You won't even switch authors
"Darkness & Dread" is a great supplement for D&D horror and more mundane adventures, introducing some new low-power base classes (worker, antique dealer, wizard's apprentice). Kinda similar to WFRP.
(which would be another great option, too)

D20 Modern or True 20 could also be used, of course.

Quote from: SosthenesAnd most divination spells have similar spells to foil them. So if both sides have a high power level, you'll get by. If you want a down-and-out Night Watch hunting low-life scum (or non-magic serial killers), then you'll have problems with the system.

You could get by just nixing some spells, and not just divinations. Some magic allows perpetrators to commit their crime to easily, so you can't solve the case by footwork alone...

That's pretty much the reason there. It starts decending into dueling mages. So the threat has to have torqued up magical or forgetaboutit.

I don't have the book, but I guess that making Ptolus low-magic would be quite a task (the same is true for Waterdeep). One could play in the slums of the city, but once in a while a rich guy will become a serial killer and by the rules could easily foil all the player's attempt with magic.

So it's either a total low-magic (and/or low-level) conversion or excising some spells...

Quote from: SosthenesD20 Modern

:confused: You mean D20 Past (which I don't know much about) don't you?  I'd definately not be interested in D20 Modern, at least by itself.

QuoteTrue 20 could also be used, of course.

I did a skim through Perfect20. That might work because it's got the magic already pulled out. Although I'm curious about the magic addin options, if any, that have been done for Perfect20.

And roger on having to demagify the whole city top to bottom. Even if you just ignore the normally super heavy magic parts. Because as soon as you start the arms race....

Quote from: RPGPunditBack when I was running the Port Blacksand campaign I used to have a running joke that anytime someone was really violently massacred in the public streets (an almost daily event in Blacksand), A couple of Lord Azzur's Goblin guards would show up in trenchcoats and examine the various remains, drawing little circles around them with chalk for no reason they could really grasp; these were "CSI: Port Blacksand".

Meanwhile, has anyone ever run a "detective" style game in a big fantasy city?

Or even in another historical era previous to the 19th century?

RPGPundit

Well not "detective" so much, I'm planning on a game set in a city I created called Namorra, and running a police based campaign inspired by novels such as Fanuilh, Hawk and Fisher (Simon Green's), and similar stories--the PC's however will be the cities "SMITE" team (Special Magic, and Intelligence for Tactical Elimination) sort of an investigative SWAT. Dealing with things such as the striking wererat sewer workers who threaten to riot, the unlicensed practice of necromancy for the sex trade, illegal drugs, and so on.

Quote from: blakkie:confused: You mean D20 Past (which I don't know much about) don't you?  I'd definately not be interested in D20 Modern, at least by itself.

Well, I skimmed through D20 Past, and didn't find anything that I could not make up on my own. D20 Modern has a nice alternative class structure so that even without magic you'll probably get characters that are distinct enough. And even the basic book has some magic in it, which could easily be used. There you'd get magic quite late in the game and it wouldn't be as powerful. With some spells eliminated, it could work out alright.

D20 Modern is the path of less resistance for D&D, there's not much else you'd have to change or players would have to learn.

AFAIK, Grim Tales was basically D20 Modern with the classes expanded to 20th level and some pretty "grim" exhaustion rules for spellcasting...

Quote from: blakkieAnd roger on having to demagify the whole city top to bottom. Even if you just ignore the normally super heavy magic parts. Because as soon as you start the arms race....

Ah, who needs to start it? The limit for lower-level spells could be a hard limit imposed by the way magic works, so no arms race will get you much higher. Magic could have some other limits. Dead is dead, so necromancy doesn't work. No magic can breach someones consciousness against his will. So no simple "Detect Truth/Thoughts". Then declare some spells "black magic", limit it to 4th level etc.

For nice examples of crime stories with a high level of magic, try Steven Brusts Vlad Taltos levels (ultra-high magic) and the Thieve's World anthologies.

I've been watching "Criminal Minds" a bit lately (hey, it's got Inigo Montoya) and I thought some kind of "Cultist Minds" could be fun. Brave investigators discover one weird cult each week... using CoC D20 and Ptolus might make that possible, though I'd go easy on the sanity loss.

I can't check this because my copy of Ptolus is sitting on the top of the fridge, still taunting me in it's shrinkwrap, but I would imagine that Monte has addressed this.  I'd imagine that divination magic isn't that much good when investigating crimes.  Sure, if you have a suspect then you can use Detect Lies/Zone of Truth, but even Commune isn't that much good at locating a suspect.  "Speak with the Dead", sure, what if the victim was stabbed from behind.  Smart criminals will know about Diviniation spells and take precautions, just as smart criminals today know about avoiding leaving forensic evidence

Seems like there was something about running an investigation game in one of the Eberron books, possibly the Sharn book.  I could go and dig out the books, but that'd be work.

A P.I. fantasy game sounds damned fun.  Glen Cook's Garrett novels would be a good source of inspiration, as well as those Lord Darcy novels which I'm not really familiar with.  By the way, does anyone know if Cook's P.I. is named after the author of the Lord Darcy books, or is that simply a coincidence?

The Greg Mendel novels do a pretty good job of doing the detective genre in a world where there are psychic powers.  They're also just plain good.

I was going to run a game of Kult based on the Shield where the PCs were going to play police detectives in a London with hidden monsters and magic.  Never got to though.

Which specific divination spells would give away the crime?

Speak with the Dead is actually very cool for CSI type stuff:
 Consider this description from the spell:
"This spell does not let you actually speak to the person (whose soul has departed). It instead draws on the imprinted knowledge stored in the corpse. "

Thats... CSI! Without all the gas chromatography and all of that. The corpse gives up the secrets.

Plus you only get a couple of questions, and the answers are usually a bit cryptic. (One for every two levels.. so let's say 8th or 9th level PCs would have like 4 questions.

I think it could work. I'll have to try this out.

Quote from: SosthenesD20 Modern is the path of less resistance for D&D, there's not much else you'd have to change or players would have to learn.

I know not everyone would agree here, but upon reading through D20M it is the path of the most suckage. In fact the main thrust of the non-suckage opinion is that D20M by itself is the suck, it's only when you start adding 3rd party stuff to it that it worthwile.

As for the magic, when I said demagify, I was really talking about altering the magic be it removal, replacement, or the wingclipping you mentioned.

Truth be told another part is that I happen have a general dislike of D&D's magic system. Even say Shadowrun's, which I consider a LOT better I find somewhat too splashy and overpowering for my tastes.