Quote from: Kaldric;505299The 'Surprise' roll is the stealth roll.

Yeah, this is why rangers don't need a 'move silently' value - it's folded into their increased chance to surprise and reduced chance of being surprised.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;505408(also, the fighters and armor thing is a tad weird; I don't think I could convince my players on a dare to go into a dungeon unarmored...!)

Yer ghostin' us, muthafucka. I don't care who you are back in da world, you give our position one more time, I'll bleed you, real quiet, and leave ya here. Got that?

That's the response the forward party gives to anyone wearing metal armor who tries to join them.

From the PHB:

QuoteNoise and light can negate chances for surprise

And in my campaign, they do. If you're carrying a light and the enemy can see it - you have zero chance of surprise.

From the DMG:

QuoteNoise can negate surprise considerations, whether the sound is the normal progress of the party or the effect of a fruitless attempt to open a door

Also from the DMG:

QuoteCharacters in metal armor can be heard for 90', hard boots can be heard at 60', relatively quiet movement can be heard at 30'.

Noise negates surprise. The normal sound of the party negates surprise. Relatively quiet sounds can be heard - thus negating surprise - from 30 feet away. Metal armor can be heard 90 feet away. Exploration speed for a movement rate of 9 is 90 feet in 10 minutes. Doing dungeon exploration in metal armor means that anything in the dungeon that can hear at all will be waiting quietly in ambush, having had 10 minutes to get ready to murder you.

After the first couple TPKs when your fighters and clerics enter the dungeon in metal armor, and every single encounter with intelligent monsters results in a couple rounds of surprise where the 5 generic kobolds fire into your party at triple speed for what amounts to 2 or 3 full rounds before you get to do anything?

Wearing metal armor in situations where you don't have a greater than 90' line of sight is pretty much suicidal. Surprise in AD&D is absolutely lethal - if you can achieve it, you're always better off trying to get it. You never want to have someone else rolling for it if you're not also rolling - because your surprise negates theirs. Four rounds of surprise is going to kill your party, almost guaranteed - and if they've had 10 minutes to very quietly prepare while you clank clank clank your way forward? They are going to surprise you, and you're going to look like a pincushion.

edit: My players use metal armor all the time - in places where surprise isn't achievable. It's always worth getting it, if you can.

Quote from: Kaldric;505504Yer ghostin' us, muthafucka. I don't care who you are back in da world, you give our position one more time, I'll bleed you, real quiet, and leave ya here. Got that?

You know...I've read those passages, I've considered those passages, I remember those passages.  Yet I never coupled them together like that.  Thank you.

I think I just got a hell of a lot less popular with my players!

Heh. Heh. Heh.

Just let them know you're going to use those rules, first. Not really fair to spring it on them.

And, of course, it works the other way, too - read those monster descriptions - the ones smart enough to set ambushes are often stupid enough to be wearing metal armor - so the players might hear them, as well.

It makes complete sense too when you consider the environment, the cramped spaces and corridors, the echoes, the obscurity... I mean, when you get paranoid in the dark, or worse, when that is your fucking natural hunting grounds, you can hear a pin drop from afar, really.

I don't use thieves (or perhaps make everyone a thief) partly because of problems like this, and partly because I find it very hard to make traps that involve player decisions (as opposed to just rolling).

Quote from: Benoist;505290Count me in as a DM who interprets the Thieves' skill to Move Silently as a step above and beyond just "moving quietly", and as a DM who would allow any PC to sneak around, with a surprise roll modified by circumstances accordingly.

This is how I would play it too. It kind of rationalizes why the thief's skill percentages start so low as the skills represent real tricked-out ninja stuff that's hard to pull off.