Quote from: RPGPundit;916314The OSR was more focused on Crunch for most of its history up till the 3rd wave; however, there was a lot of fluff contained within that crunch in terms of "implied setting".

Yup that's the way it should be. Intertwine crunch and fluff as much as possibe to rub out the stuoid dichotomy.

Quote from: Omega;916316Written implied setting or implied implied setting?

Both, but more of the former.

Quote from: Tod13;916568Sorry, I'm not saying that is specifically what is in the later OSR books--as I said, I have no idea what the "waves" are. I'm saying that is an example of an implied setting. Remember, I don't know what the waves are, so I can't comment on them. But this seemed a good example. :cool:

1st wave: publishing "clones" of old rule-sets and old-school style adventure modules.

2nd wave: publishing new rule-sets within OSR boundaries (stuff like LotFP and DCC).

3rd wave: publishing setting-based books with OSR-rulesets or rule-mods (stuff like Red Tide, Arrows of Indra, Yoon-Suin, Dark Albion, etc).

So, crunch/fluff from my perspective (and I'm more frequently playing 40k than anything) requires me to ask something important...

Does the 'fluff' have some representation by 'crunch'?  For example, the 'fluff' for the Deathwatch describes them as a highly-adaptable, pragmatic (by Imperium standards), and versatile fighting force.  Throwing in a handful of 'fluff stories' about how they do this is fine and good, especially since in the 'crunch' the army has the ability to change their mission objectives on the fly during the game.  It reflects this 'fluff' mechanically.  

A bad example of fluff/crunch is individuals like Marneus Calgar of the Ultramarines- he is described as a 'tactical genius' but all the crunch has to show for it is that he can choose his Warlord Trait and a combat doctrine.  His true strength is that he's insanely good in melee combat, but that's about all he's good for- and truthfully, the points would be better spent on a generic Captain and having more units on the table (especially when 'D' weapons are in nearly every list, your melee hot-shit guy might not get too far).  He's genuinely got nothing to show for 'tactical genius', he's more like the biggest bruiser on the block with slightly more foresight than an Ork warboss.

Quote from: RPGPundit;9172031st wave: publishing "clones" of old rule-sets and old-school style adventure modules.

2nd wave: publishing new rule-sets within OSR boundaries (stuff like LotFP and DCC).

3rd wave: publishing setting-based books with OSR-rulesets or rule-mods (stuff like Red Tide, Arrows of Indra, Yoon-Suin, Dark Albion, etc).

Thanks. *hat tip* (And I really do wear a hat.) I wonder how much of the 3rd Wave was driven by stuff like Fate/Fate Core where all the books seem setting books and every setting seemed to get converted to it.

Crunch is the Physics Engine for the setting.  It is how things are accomplished for the players, a medium for how things will happen.

Therefor, the expectations it creates are implicit in the way the world is supposed to operate, and how things happen and have happened.  Otherwise, the description of the world and the history...Which is Fluff.  I say 'supposed to work', because GM's very, very often create System/Setting/Game mismatches.  

There is no pendulum.  They are not endpoints on a continuum.  You don't get more crunch by reducing fluff.  They are the primary ingredients to a game, along with the gamestyle, the players, and, according to Kyle, and I am not arguing, the snacks.

Crunch supports Fluff, or does not.  

Vreeg's First Rule of Setting Design.
"Make sure the ruleset you are using matches the setting and game you want to play, because the setting and game WILL eventually match the system."

3rd Corrollary
"The rules are the physics engine of the setting, Crunch models Fluff. As rules are the interface between the setting and the player's actions, Houseruling is a constant process of creating a rule for a setting-specific event to formalize it. This is a process to be welcomed and enjoyed, as it only comes from the expansion of the players into the setting. Talk to them about it and formalize it with them if you have any doubts."

From here.

Quote from: Tod13;917215Thanks. *hat tip* (And I really do wear a hat.) I wonder how much of the 3rd Wave was driven by stuff like Fate/Fate Core where all the books seem setting books and every setting seemed to get converted to it.

I don't think that pushed it at all. I think it was a natural next step in the OSR.

Quote from: Tod13;917215Thanks. *hat tip* (And I really do wear a hat.) I wonder how much of the 3rd Wave was driven by stuff like Fate/Fate Core where all the books seem setting books and every setting seemed to get converted to it.

Quote from: RPGPundit;918056I don't think that pushed it at all. I think it was a natural next step in the OSR.

Agreed. There are some OSR-type people who like and try to play every game, but I think there's a higher percentage of narrow-interest roleplayers in the OSR than in the general population of gamers who post to forums. For some people (like me,) Fate is just a name.

What happens with just about any RPG system with a devoted fan base is that it gets adapted to other genres. If the fan base is very small, the adaptations will have limited distribution. A larger fan base may support a couple self-published products. It's happened over and over with multiple games, so why would Fate, a fairly recent game, be the driving force? Isn't Fate just copying the Hero System, or BRP?