I dunno, I think people are being a bit hard on Mailanka. Upon reflection I don't agree with the poster's stance but I do understand it and the thinking behind it, which has been abundantly and politely explained.

Quote from: S'mon;692964And no one ever objects to your ban on cross-gender play? No one finds it creepy or revolting?

Rarely.  And it's not that I lack players or experience here.  And why would one find it creepy?  In my experience, people tend to find cross-gender play creepier than "No cross-gender play." In fact, when I say it, I very rarely have to explain it at all.  I simply say "I don't allow cross-gender play" and people say "Okay" and shift characters/concepts.

I've been argued with only a few times.  A few times, the player turned out to have... issues whatever gender he played.  There was once a transgender argued with me, essentially arguing that she* was neurologically male and thus it wasn't really cross-gender RP.  I had a hard time arguing against that and conceded her*point and allowed the "cross-gender" RP, though whether or not it was really a violation of my rule depends on how you view gender, but alas that campaign never got off the ground.

Quote from: Mailanka;692963I've seen that too, but online bothers me less and I see less complaints.  I think much of these complaints basically boil down to ruined immersion.  If one of the PCs is a beautiful, willowy princess with a breathy voice, a mounting curse/illness and dreams of fixing her dying kingdom is played by a 300-hundred pound bearded dude with a throbbing bass for a voice, it can distract/disrupt the immersion of the players.  People have pointed to male GMs playing female characters, and while this seems less of a problem for immersion (people seem to just expect the GM to "play the world" and trust his/her descriptions more), it absolutely can and has caused problems. I've had players burst out laughing at me, because they can both see the scene and see me performing it.  The most classic example of this is when two NPCs get into an argument, one of my players burst into giggles every time and says "Mailanka is arguing with himself again."

Online this happens less.  I have no idea who's playing the gothy princess, I can't see him, nor can the other players.  It's just words on a screen and it's easier to hear her breathy voice, to see her harrowed face and her long, dripping black hair.  Who is behind that vision, that concept, matters less.  The gender dissonance isn't thrust into the players' faces, nor into mine, so there's much less to object to, UNLESS they're obviously doing something stupid and inappropriate (The lesbian stripper ninja, being the classic example).

So I find it much less of an issue in online play.  Online play among people that I don't think will go all LSN on me, and among well-established players are two places were I would consider relaxing the rule.

Some interesting observations in this post. I never thought it like this before you have a point about most gamers tending to see the gm as their character's senses in a way. He or she is the world around them, the narrator not the actor most of the time. I mean, putting aside gender most players have no problem with GM, who might be a pasty 98s pd asthmatic portraying a hulking muscle bound orc bruiser threatening to dismember their character.

Same goes for players. I played in a Star Wars campaign for years, had a great time but it came up randomly at one point that everyone assumed by character was black (I am) and looked a bit like young Lando Calrissian (I'm not even close. when he was a white, everyman looking teen ager (Looked allot like Joel from MST3K).

The whole not playing a woman "right" bugs me to no end. It implies there is one sort of woman or at least a there's only a very limited set of "female" personalities exist and any woman that doesn't fall into them isn't a "real woman".  Which, to me, is more sexist than the LSNs and walking sex fantasies.

Hell, I've played with LSNs, Yaoi pretty boys, "Man with Boobs" and all the other stereotypical "bad cross gender" examples and they've actually been interesting characters with depth and development. Those facets didn't totally define them and they had reasons and motivation for being the way they were. So if they were the players stroke fiction at least they served to entertain the rest of the players too. Maybe the group I'm with is just damn atypical but I really like the we can do stuff like that.

Quote from: Mailanka;692944Because if you play the pirate queen "wrong," then players will call you on it

I have never seen this. I've never seen a player accuse another player of playing their character wrong on account of gender. Neither male nor female players have done this in any group I've ever seen, and I've seen many.

Quote from: S'mon;692964And no one ever objects to your ban on cross-gender play? No one finds it creepy or revolting?

I don't agree with his stance but "creepy and revolting" seems like too strong a reaction.

Quote from: The Traveller;692968I dunno, I think people are being a bit hard on Mailanka. Upon reflection I don't agree with the poster's stance but I do understand it and the thinking behind it, which has been abundantly and politely explained.

To be fair, it's just a couple of people who really, really dislike it, and watching the reactions this thread got, I knew I was going to catch some heat for my stance.  On the whole, I have to say that it was actually more positive than I expected and frankly would have been a worse experience in other places I can think of.

Quote from: S'mon;692971I have never seen this. I've never seen a player accuse another player of playing their character wrong on account of gender. Neither male nor female players have done this in any group I've ever seen, and I've seen many.

Different people have different experiences. That's not hard to believe.

I have to say I'm surprised by some of the vehemence and seeming anger about this topic. Unless I'm completely remembering things wrong I recall when allowing or doing cross gender play marked you as a creepy weirdo and men playing women was the domain of "Cat piss men" types.  I guess the pendulum has swung the other way

Quote from: Mailanka;692969Rarely.  And it's not that I lack players or experience here.  And why would one find it creepy?  In my experience, people tend to find cross-gender play creepier than "No cross-gender play." In fact, when I say it, I very rarely have to explain it at all.  I simply say "I don't allow cross-gender play" and people say "Okay" and shift characters/concepts.

Dunno if it might be a cultural issue. Are you American? All the cross-gender-banners I've ever seen have been American; Americans seem to have particular issues that don't apply in the rest of the world. I'd be absolutely flabbergasted to encounter this here in the UK.

Quote from: Mailanka;692974To be fair, it's just a couple of people who really, really dislike it, and watching the reactions this thread got, I knew I was going to catch some heat for my stance.  On the whole, I have to say that it was actually more positive than I expected and frankly would have been a worse experience in other places I can think of.

Places that being with rpg and end with net with a . inbetween?

It actually wasn't that bad over there but then again, no one stuck their neck out because well, that's they way the place is.

Quote from: S'mon;692978Dunno if it might be a cultural issue. Are you American? All the cross-gender-banners I've ever seen have been American; Americans seem to have particular issues that don't apply in the rest of the world. I'd be absolutely flabbergasted to encounter this here in the UK.

I wouldn't got that far. I've met some people that ban cross gender play from Canada, South America, Britain and other locales over the years.

Quote from: S'mon;692971I have never seen this. I've never seen a player accuse another player of playing their character wrong on account of gender. Neither male nor female players have done this in any group I've ever seen, and I've seen many.

I have.  I've also seen people complain about it, or complain about the lack of immersion, or forgetting the gender of the PC, even to the point of making long-term plans for a character whose gender they have mistaken.

Quote from: Nexus;692970Some interesting observations in this post. I never thought it like this before you have a point about most gamers tending to see the gm as their character's senses in a way. He or she is the world around them, the narrator not the actor most of the time. I mean, putting aside gender most players have no problem with GM, who might be a pasty 98s pd asthmatic portraying a hulking muscle bound orc bruiser threatening to dismember their character.

Same goes for players. I played in a Star Wars campaign for years, had a great time but it came up randomly at one point that everyone assumed by character was black (I am) and looked a bit like young Lando Calrissian (I'm not even close. when he was a white, everyman looking teen ager (Looked allot like Joel from MST3K).

The whole not playing a woman "right" bugs me to no end. It implies there is one sort of woman or at least a there's only a very limited set of "female" personalities exist and any woman that doesn't fall into them isn't a "real woman".  Which, to me, is more sexist than the LSNs and walking sex fantasies.

Hell, I've played with LSNs, Yaoi pretty boys, "Man with Boobs" and all the other stereotypical "bad cross gender" examples and they've actually been interesting characters with depth and development. Those facets didn't totally define them and they had reasons and motivation for being the way they were. So if they were the players stroke fiction at least they served to entertain the rest of the players too. Maybe the group I'm with is just damn atypical but I really like the we can do stuff like that.

So, lemme tell you a secret: I've seen chicks play Lesbian Stripper Ninjas.  Well, at least Stripper Ninjas with Bisexual Tendencies.  The thing is, as soon as a woman is playing the female character, you can't really complain about it "because she's a woman, she must know what women are like."

I don't contend that the people who argue that you're not playing X "right" are correct.  Sometimes they might be, but people are really varied, and who's really the ultimate authority on what's "Feminine" or "Masculine?"  Isn't it possible for a man to understand women better than women do?  Or for a woman to understand men better than men do?  I know for a fact that women have made observations about me, my needs, my focus, and my romantic tendencies, that I never noticed before or understood.  In some ways, men and women have a unique perspective on one another precisely because they are on the outside looking in.

I think the problem really boils down to immersion.  When they say "You're playing your character wrong," and the risk of irritating Benoist and suggesting I have empathic powers, I think they're often saying "I can't see your character anymore."

Consider a LARP.  If you argue that you should be allowed to play any character, nothing stops a guy from playing a woman in a LARP.  You can plan an orc, or a vampire, or an elf, why not a woman?  Part of it, I'm sure, comes from how our culture views gender, and we could get into quite a dicussion about THAT, because women do something dress up as and play guys in LARPs, and the reverse seems to be very rare to me (I've never, ever seen a guy play a woman in a LARP).  But a lot of it comes down to the fact that you need to physically portray your character.  I'm a big man, and I would just never try to play a child or a slim, delicate man.  I just don't think I could pull it off.  People looking at me would never know I had an effete build "in reality."  They will treat me as I am, as I appear.  There are limits to imagination.

Tabletop can get around that a bit if you describe your character the way a GM would.  If I say "I approach the prince and compliment him," in my gruff bass, then it's hard to remember that I'm a delicate princess.  If I say "Dierde's slipper whispers against the floor as she shyly approaches the prince.  Ducking her head a bit to hide her face behind her hair as she murmurs 'You look stunning today, my prince.'" You're no longer envisioning me but Dierdre, who happens to be narrated by a dude.  And despite the fact that they're both exactly the same thing, I see more people get complaints of "Playing the character wrong" from the first than from the second, which is what leads me to believe that this boils down to immersion and the breaking of it.

I also note most players don't THINK in the second way.  They don't envision their character from the outside, looking in.  They generally don't depict their character as other characters see them, which is a struggle I have with online RP (Trying to convince people that they need to do this). One of the things I mean when I talk about "Trusting a player" is this sort of knowledge and behavior.  It's not just about whether they play the female/male character accurately (though that can be a concern), it's that they successfully depict their character.

If I play a hulking brute and describe him in the first person, then it's more believable than a child or a woman or a delicate elf.

Quote from: Nexus;692972I don't agree with his stance but "creepy and revolting" seems like too strong a reaction.

That's the reaction I have, probably is irrational in some cases. As irrational as banning cross-gender play. But my id-brain tells me that anyone doing this must have something seriously wrong with them.

Quote from: S'mon;692978Dunno if it might be a cultural issue. Are you American? All the cross-gender-banners I've ever seen have been American; Americans seem to have particular issues that don't apply in the rest of the world. I'd be absolutely flabbergasted to encounter this here in the UK.

I am American, yes, but most of my role-playing experience has been in the Netherlands.  Personally, I find the notion that Americans are more conservative about gender or what have you than Europeans to be untrue.  The Dutch can be astonishingly conservative, for example, and Americans can be very liberal about it.

So local culture (as in the culture of your specific group0 certainly has something to do with it, but as I said before, I use the rule the most when I'm running one-shots at a local RPG association, explicitly when I have less control over the "culture" I'm in, and I use it for precisely that reason.  Some groups could totally handle it, some groups can't.  Since I don't know which one I'm in...

Quote from: S'mon;692978Dunno if it might be a cultural issue. Are you American? All the cross-gender-banners I've ever seen have been American; Americans seem to have particular issues that don't apply in the rest of the world. I'd be absolutely flabbergasted to encounter this here in the UK.

Yeah, but we in the UK have a long tradition on men playing women going all the way back from Shakespeare to Monty Python. So basically that's all the classics covered.