The fact that you can press F to doubt the intention of conservatives on this website and not get banned, especially when it has a bad rep on TBP and Reddit, is telling of which side leans more towards authoritarianism.

Quote from: jeff37923 on February 16, 2022, 08:16:29 AM

Quote from: jhkim on February 15, 2022, 11:14:03 PM

We still have a liberal and conservative side, where each likes to pretend that it's only the other that is authoritarian.

Intellectual dishonesty from jhkim? This is jeff37923's complete lack of surprise.

Greetings!

*Laughing* Cheers, Jeff! Your commentary had me roaring with laughter over my coffee. So true, huh?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: oggsmash on February 16, 2022, 08:10:46 AM

Quote from: jhkim on February 15, 2022, 11:14:03 PM
We still have a liberal and conservative side, where each likes to pretend that it's only the other that is authoritarian. Case in point, RebelSky openly says that people of opposing political views should be forcibly shipped off rather than allowed to exercise their right to free speech.

  Well....being an avowed Marxist is sort of like declaring your loyalty to a foreign power and admitting you will do everything you can to bring about the downfall of the United States.  Though I am not for clapping up people who proclaim their out right traitorous intentions, saying it is simply an opposing political view is really underselling the truth.

My emphasis above. You can attempt to make that comparison, but it isn't actually true.

I don't support communism, but I support free speech. People have the right to advocate for communism, nazism, white supremacy, and plenty of other causes that I don't agree with. The U.S. has had a Communist party for over a century, and it has always been legal to be a member. There are some who want to move away from the American tradition of free speech and make being a communist illegal -- and I oppose that.

Being a supporter of free speech doesn't mean only supporting the speech you agree with. It means supporting speech that one disagrees with.

   EDITED to again steer myself back on track and away from other topics.

  apologies jhkim for editing the prior post and this one, we can continue such a discussion elsewhere.

  Authoritarian type behavior in entertainment and media is only coming from one side.   When they have decided there are instant firing offenses that some people might not even no exist due to their murky nature.  The thing is, to be an authoritarian, you have to have actual authority.  Regarding the big boys in the RPG industry, there is only a viewpoint from one position.  Now, this might be that way for a long time, or there may be some shift.  If anything I think there is going to be a drift back towards middle at some point as enough talented people get a mouth full of bad flavor.  Like the comic industry where now there are talented people funding their own work, they only have to answer to the fans.  The ability to produce media and books without gatekeepers has already started this sort of thing.  At some point, there will be enough of them together to be big themselves. 

There absolutely are authoritarians on both sides. I support free speech for all.

But being an avowed marxist should get you the same respect that saying your a avowed eugenicist.

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 09, 2022, 12:38:48 PM
Proof that no matter how far left you move, you'll never be woke enough to avoid being canceled once they've run out targets further to the right in their never-ending quest to achieve drive past the event horizon of madness into the Leftist singularity.

The sooner you get off the roller coaster, be true to yourself, and find alternate funding/promotion than Leftists bastions the better off your rpg and rpg-adjacent products will be.

All right 92%, imagine the whole damn mess is like a huge circle. This place is as far to the right as it thinks is safe.

Now what happens if that circle moves left? DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHH soon this site will be outside the circle.

So it can either get banned for hate speech- saying ANYTHING bad about the woke- or move to the left.

Hey, relatively it's still to the right, problem is today's conservative is yesterday's liberal. And the 92% won't stand firm so- on it goes. If a show like Critical Role ain't safe what makes you think YOU are?

Quote from: Redwanderer on February 16, 2022, 04:08:15 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 09, 2022, 12:38:48 PM
Proof that no matter how far left you move, you'll never be woke enough to avoid being canceled once they've run out targets further to the right in their never-ending quest to achieve drive past the event horizon of madness into the Leftist singularity.

The sooner you get off the roller coaster, be true to yourself, and find alternate funding/promotion than Leftists bastions the better off your rpg and rpg-adjacent products will be.

All right 92%, imagine the whole damn mess is like a huge circle. This place is as far to the right as it thinks is safe.

Now what happens if that circle moves left? DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHH soon this site will be outside the circle.

So it can either get banned for hate speech- saying ANYTHING bad about the woke- or move to the left.

Hey, relatively it's still to the right, problem is today's conservative is yesterday's liberal. And the 92% won't stand firm so- on it goes. If a show like Critical Role ain't safe what makes you think YOU are?

Oh, my books/game system will be released pre-canceled by the Left; for a cover with heroic white men and a hot red-headed sorceress on it and pushing the values of "having fun" and "embracing traditional heroic virtues."

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on February 16, 2022, 03:16:44 PM
There absolutely are authoritarians on both sides. I support free speech for all.

But being an avowed marxist should get you the same respect that saying your a avowed eugenicist.

Cool. I'm good with that.

Quote from: oggsmash on February 16, 2022, 02:46:49 PM
  apologies jhkim for editing the prior post and this one, we can continue such a discussion elsewhere.

  Authoritarian type behavior in entertainment and media is only coming from one side.   When they have decided there are instant firing offenses that some people might not even no exist due to their murky nature.  The thing is, to be an authoritarian, you have to have actual authority.  Regarding the big boys in the RPG industry, there is only a viewpoint from one position.

No problem about the first part. I sent you a PM about the previous point, which seemed more off-topic. Previously, I was speaking more about society in general than about only within entertainment. I would agree that liberals are more dominant within modern-day entertainment companies.

As for authoritarianism within companies... Traditionally, conservatives have tended to favor "at will" employment, where the employer can fire someone at any time for any reason. The push for employee rights has generally come more from liberals, who grew up used to the idea that if you say stuff that pisses the boss off, they fire you. What has been changing is that employers used to be much more solidly conservative, and now it is more mixed. Even so, conservatives still seem to mostly side with "at will" employment.

Quote from: jhkim on February 16, 2022, 06:29:49 PM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on February 16, 2022, 03:16:44 PM
There absolutely are authoritarians on both sides. I support free speech for all.

But being an avowed marxist should get you the same respect that saying your a avowed eugenicist.

Cool. I'm good with that.

Quote from: oggsmash on February 16, 2022, 02:46:49 PM
  apologies jhkim for editing the prior post and this one, we can continue such a discussion elsewhere.

  Authoritarian type behavior in entertainment and media is only coming from one side.   When they have decided there are instant firing offenses that some people might not even no exist due to their murky nature.  The thing is, to be an authoritarian, you have to have actual authority.  Regarding the big boys in the RPG industry, there is only a viewpoint from one position.

No problem about the first part. I sent you a PM about the previous point, which seemed more off-topic. Previously, I was speaking more about society in general than about only within entertainment. I would agree that liberals are more dominant within modern-day entertainment companies.

As for authoritarianism within companies... Traditionally, conservatives have tended to favor "at will" employment, where the employer can fire someone at any time for any reason. The push for employee rights has generally come more from liberals, who grew up used to the idea that if you say stuff that pisses the boss off, they fire you. What has been changing is that employers used to be much more solidly conservative, and now it is more mixed. Even so, conservatives still seem to mostly side with "at will" employment.

  You might want to tell the very openly leftist Jeff Bezos that.  Or the openly left Google, who fire you for the wrong opinion.  Or Facebook, where the same happens.  Or we can discuss how Google and Facebook use H1B visas to get lots of bug testing from chinese and Indian coders while paying well under market rates.   Also todays leftists are not liberals.  They do not understand liberty.  Liberals are for tomorrow.  I think you are a liberal, but you are soon to be right of center.   Let's stop playing the what happened years ago game.  Let's talk about today.

Edited to add:  Let's also play, talk about the RPG industry if we are going to delve into authoritarian/right/left.   

Quote from: oggsmash on February 09, 2022, 02:04:27 PM
Oops, late on that one.  It is interesting how the woke are not interested in you until you have a lot of reach or money, or both.   Then you draw like attention like flies to shit from them.

The whole Critical Role cancelled by Kotaku is a big nothing-burger.

It is literally a case of woke penis envy.

CR will just ignore Kotaku and this will go away for them.

Quote from: LouProsperi on February 14, 2022, 12:02:59 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 09, 2022, 12:19:33 PM
Critical Role is not actually a roleplaying game or people actually playing a roleplaying game.

Of course it's people playing a roleplaying game. That's literally what it is. The style of play may be different from what you do in your games, but that doesn't mean it's not a roleplaying game.  Even if the newer seasons are scripted, that still doesn't mean it's not a roleplaying game.

Pundit quoted a poster that said:

"Critical Role is to an actual RPG session what Porn is to sex."

Which about sums things up.

CR is very artificial on many levels.

Quote from: Zelen on February 10, 2022, 06:45:20 PM
Critical Role is improv theater. And, respect if you are talented and able to run an entertaining improv theater. I don't consider that to be a TTRPG, however.

Exactly.

You have trained actors explicitly putting on a show. It's basically improve theatre with playing an RPG as the central prop the actors and actresses bounce off of. They don't need to "script" anything as the y are all buying into the central premise of the show.

The Players all refer to them selves as "The Cast"...

Mercer's GM skills are a bit overblown. Yeah, he makes it work with a lot of players - but these are players that are there specifically to make things as smooth as possible for him as well.

He is also leading them down a guided Adventure Path. And they happily comply each step of the way. A custom written AP, but still. Every path they take is more or less plotted out a head of time.

There is no "Fuck this. let's go be pirates!" from the players.

There is: Mercer dangles obvious AP adventure hook, and Players say: "Please sir can we have some more..."

Quote from: Jaeger on February 16, 2022, 07:41:07 PM
He is also leading them down a guided Adventure Path. And they happily comply each step of the way. A custom written AP, but still. Every path they take is more or less plotted out a head of time.

100% agree. I guess my question is, are the players told what has been plotted out for them? Complying with a rails campaign is lame, but a player showing up, even to improve, and act out a plot is theater.

I have limited experience with CR's first campaign, but there were enough twists and turns to suggest a rails campaign, but I never got the impression that they were playing from notes or anything on what would unfold. I do believe players were encouraged to construct some scenes to fit their backstory, and knew they would be added in. So maybe that is my evidence.

Regardless, the fact nobody can die, because they can all sob through snot bubbles and fake British accents until the player is brought back from the dead or saved by a God might be reason to 'cancel' them.

Quote from: FingerRod on February 17, 2022, 07:59:49 AM
...
100% agree. I guess my question is, are the players told what has been plotted out for them? Complying with a rails campaign is lame, but a player showing up, even to improve, and act out a plot is theater.

I have limited experience with CR's first campaign, but there were enough twists and turns to suggest a rails campaign, but I never got the impression that they were playing from notes or anything on what would unfold. I do believe players were encouraged to construct some scenes to fit their backstory, and knew they would be added in. So maybe that is my evidence.
...

I guess this would go under: "Define told"


For Kicks I listened to part of an episode where Mercer actually let a PC die... I skipped to the last part and even then I heard some interesting stuff when I just wanted to see their reaction when the PC bought it...

Campaign 2 Ep 26 (The one where Mercer actually kills a PC)

At 3:23:30  - Mercer pulls out a terrain map for their ambush fight.

A player proves his own idiocy and says: "You can't know that...No way you could..."

Mercer says: "I have multiple maps prepared depending on where things happen."

I can only surmise that the player is so used to "playing D&D" on rails that he doesn't even realize that he is riding them...

At 3:24:10  - Another player informs the idiot: "He did move 4 to 5 maps into the building today." Then referring to a room in the CR building: "... no Cast allowed in here."

At 3:25:03  -  Mercer breaks out the prepped map and says: "This scenario that you've found..."

Just from this brief exchange, we are able to infer several things:

1- CR does make an effort to conceal details of the AP/Episode from the players. IMHO this is important for them to maintain their credibility with their fans for being "unscripted".

But being #unscripted doesn't matter.   Because:

2- Mercer is clearly running an AP on rails. Yes there are 'branches', but it is clear from the exchange shown that they are usually accounted for well in advance! All AP roads lead to Mercer's storytelling Rome.  Mercer rarely, has to 'wing it' in reaction to the PC's actions.

3- The fact that the group walked straight into his prep proves that they are happily following along with the overall intended "plot" of the AP in front of them. (Idiot player aside. But in their defense, I'd bet they feel this is how D&D is supposed to be 'played'...)

Props to Mercer for letting the dice fall where they may and actually killing the PC. But it is clear from the Players reactions, and some of the commentary at the end of the show that that PC death was a literal fluke of the dice and circumstances, and was not viewed as something 'on the table' in the typical CR combat...

Despite the fact that the CR team has been playing D&D for years, they still get razzed periodically for their lack of rules knowledge. What these commentators don't understand is that these players are not there to actually play the game but have been selected for their ability to play their PC's in-character whist following along with Mercer's AP campaigns.

The one sometime contrary player that CR had early on got booted from the show...

So no. The CR players are not "told" what has been plotted out for them ahead of time. This is very important so that they are able to keep up credibility with their fans and prove to potential naysayers that they are "unscripted". Mercer not fudging die rolls is part of the fan cred as well.

But like I said above, CR being #unscripted does not means what its fans think it means!

The players are willingly walking through a crafted AP story on rails. They refer to themselves as "Cast". They are very much playing a role as their PC's during the 'game'.

These are all trained improv actors who can infer what direction is required of them as Mercer drops various adventures hooks and hints.

i.e. They are all onboard to put on the show, they are not going to go against the direction Mercer nudges them into.

It is textbook improve theatre using the game of D&D and Mercer's story cues as the central prop that they all bounce off of. (And actual improv works off of even less than that, so they are not being pressed too hard to fill their roles...)


Is CR really 'playing' D&D? IMHO they are maintaining the minimum needed to make that claim.

But it is a very Artificial, curated, and staged railroad 'game' that tells the 'story' that Mercer sets out to tell...


If some nobody described such a campaign on rails as their home game, they would be told that their group is doing D&D wrong.

And not just by Pundit.

Quote from: Jaeger on February 17, 2022, 03:29:22 PM

Quote from: FingerRod on February 17, 2022, 07:59:49 AM
...
100% agree. I guess my question is, are the players told what has been plotted out for them? Complying with a rails campaign is lame, but a player showing up, even to improve, and act out a plot is theater.

I have limited experience with CR's first campaign, but there were enough twists and turns to suggest a rails campaign, but I never got the impression that they were playing from notes or anything on what would unfold. I do believe players were encouraged to construct some scenes to fit their backstory, and knew they would be added in. So maybe that is my evidence.
...

I guess this would go under: "Define told"


For Kicks I listened to part of an episode where Mercer actually let a PC die... I skipped to the last part and even then I heard some interesting stuff when I just wanted to see their reaction when the PC bought it...

Campaign 2 Ep 26 (The one where Mercer actually kills a PC)

At 3:23:30  - Mercer pulls out a terrain map for their ambush fight.

A player proves his own idiocy and says: "You can't know that...No way you could..."

Mercer says: "I have multiple maps prepared depending on where things happen."

I can only surmise that the player is so used to "playing D&D" on rails that he doesn't even realize that he is riding them...

At 3:24:10  - Another player informs the idiot: "He did move 4 to 5 maps into the building today." Then referring to a room in the CR building: "... no Cast allowed in here."

At 3:25:03  -  Mercer breaks out the prepped map and says: "This scenario that you've found..."

Just from this brief exchange, we are able to infer several things:

1- CR does make an effort to conceal details of the AP/Episode from the players. IMHO this is important for them to maintain their credibility with their fans for being "unscripted".

But being #unscripted doesn't matter.   Because:

2- Mercer is clearly running an AP on rails. Yes there are 'branches', but it is clear from the exchange shown that they are usually accounted for well in advance! All AP roads lead to Mercer's storytelling Rome.  Mercer rarely, has to 'wing it' in reaction to the PC's actions.

3- The fact that the group walked straight into his prep proves that they are happily following along with the overall intended "plot" of the AP in front of them. (Idiot player aside. But in their defense, I'd bet they feel this is how D&D is supposed to be 'played'...)

Props to Mercer for letting the dice fall where they may and actually killing the PC. But it is clear from the Players reactions, and some of the commentary at the end of the show that that PC death was a literal fluke of the dice and circumstances, and was not viewed as something 'on the table' in the typical CR combat...

Despite the fact that the CR team has been playing D&D for years, they still get razzed periodically for their lack of rules knowledge. What these commentators don't understand is that these players are not there to actually play the game but have been selected for their ability to play their PC's in-character whist following along with Mercer's AP campaigns.

The one sometime contrary player that CR had early on got booted from the show...

So no. The CR players are not "told" what has been plotted out for them ahead of time. This is very important so that they are able to keep up credibility with their fans and prove to potential naysayers that they are "unscripted". Mercer not fudging die rolls is part of the fan cred as well.

But like I said above, CR being #unscripted does not means what its fans think it means!

The players are willingly walking through a crafted AP story on rails. They refer to themselves as "Cast". They are very much playing a role as their PC's during the 'game'.

These are all trained improv actors who can infer what direction is required of them as Mercer drops various adventures hooks and hints.

i.e. They are all onboard to put on the show, they are not going to go against the direction Mercer nudges them into.

It is textbook improve theatre using the game of D&D and Mercer's story cues as the central prop that they all bounce off of. (And actual improv works off of even less than that, so they are not being pressed too hard to fill their roles...)


Is CR really 'playing' D&D? IMHO they are maintaining the minimum needed to make that claim.

But it is a very Artificial, curated, and staged railroad 'game' that tells the 'story' that Mercer sets out to tell...


If some nobody described such a campaign on rails as their home game, they would be told that their group is doing D&D wrong.

And not just by Pundit.

Jaeger decribes this far better in detail than I could. If you want my sound bite of it, Critical Role is the Reality TV Show about Playing DnD.

On another note, what is the appeal of CR? I tried watching a couple of episodes but couldn't get beyond 2 minutes. There's so much unnecessary banter that I didn't know how to follow all the conversations. It felt like I was listening to a bunch of people making small talk, with the occasional weird accent and dumb joke. And I pride myself on being a pretty good listener.

Quote from: jeff37923 on February 17, 2022, 04:18:56 PM
Jaeger decribes this far better in detail than I could. If you want my sound bite of it, Critical Role is the Reality TV Show about Playing DnD.

Jaeger always delivers. And your characterization is super accurate the more I think about it.

I have watched a couple of live plays on YouTube or whatever, and most of them are cringy or boring. From what I saw, CR was interesting. But that makes sense. Reality TV is also meant to be presented in a way that entertains first and foremost.

Yeah, that is a really good characterization.