Yeah. It can depend on the style of the game. In a game like DCC, fumbles can be fun, because the game is wacky to begin with.

But for example, in Lion & Dragon I have criticals but no fumbles. A natural "1" does always miss though, regardless of bonuses.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1033486It depends on the situation. If the PCs are jumping a chasm, then a fumble on the jump roll = splat. But in general, a fumble isn't insta-death.

Yeah, I did qualify it with unless they were trying something clearly crazy dangerous. But then I'd warn the player of that risk in advance too.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1033495Why are people punishing players for something they have no control over?  A natural 20 is a lucky chance, the double damage is gravy.  Missing on a natural 1 is punishment enough for something that no one can control.

I don't get it...

Because it makes the combat more unpredictbale and dangerous, which is desirable imo - at least in most dnd/d20 style games

Quote from: Psikerlord;1033912Because it makes the combat more unpredictbale and dangerous, which is desirable imo - at least in most dnd/d20 style games

It just means the DM's being a dick.  And given that I usually DM, it doesn't benefit me to punish players for something they can't control.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1033926It just means the DM's being a dick.  And given that I usually DM, it doesn't benefit me to punish players for something they can't control.

That's a big assumption. It depends on a DM being some kind of active interventionist, wishing well or ill on the players.
But to me, criticals are all about emulation of Genre.  

If you're playing a D&D game that's like a high fantasy action/adventure romp, Criticals probably shouldn't happen; they may even just happen to monsters the PCs are fighting!

On the other hand, if you're running "Game of Thrones", it should be entirely credible that a bad shot should end up with the PC's hand being sliced clean off.

Quote from: danskmacabre;1033906Yeah, I did qualify it with unless they were trying something clearly crazy dangerous. But then I'd warn the player of that risk in advance too.

I fully agree on warning players about risks. If you fumble this, you die, is perfectly fine (especially with players who aren't used to sudden PC death).

Quote from: RPGPundit;1034300If you're playing a D&D game that's like a high fantasy action/adventure romp, Criticals probably shouldn't happen; they may even just happen to monsters the PCs are fighting!

4e did this thing where nat 20 = max damage, and you rolled extra weapon dice if you had a magic weapon. So if I hit you with my +2 magic sword, I'd do 8+2d8 base damage plus whatever modifiers. Most monsters didn't have magic weapons.

Quote from: Eric Diaz;1031724Another idea that I hate is the "confirming crits" nonsense. Even PF is avoiding this for their new edition (and PF 2 is also using the same formula I used for crits ).

Equally silly is the GURPS idea that you've gort a critical hit table... hat does nothing half the time!

It's not silly (and not accurate - it's still an automatic hit with no chance to defend, which is a big deal in GURPS). It's part of an attempt to give results a chance of happening that is appropriate to the situation (which is one of the main values of GURPS: trying to reasonably represent what would likely happen in a given situation).

Which is conspicuously absent in saying every 1 or 20  is a crit regardless of who's doing what. (Which means 10% of all actions will be crit success or fail regardless of skill or situation).

There's a disconnect of course with what many players tend to think is going on. There's a natural excitement for many players about rolling the highest or lowest value, and it's natural to want something exceptional to happen for it. But if like me you feel it's more important for the game to try to simulate the situation reasonably, then hopefully it wouldn't make sense that everyone just has a flat 5% chance of flubbing up and a 5% chance of doing something great on every attack.

Adding a second check (or table) which takes into account things like skill and circumstances can make crits not just an equal chance of random good/bad for everyone.

(GURPS also adds in a sliding scale for what is a crit, depending on the effective skill level of the character, so if you have a really high skill (either because you're great, the circumstances are right, or you're going all-out for skill) you're more likely to get a great result and less likely to flub, and if your effective skill is low (either because your skill is slow or the circumstances are awful) you're more likely to flub. I really like the latter part because it gives a natural mechanic for having good chances of something go really wrong when players try things way beyond their characters' abilities. And if someone does get a good critical hit, it's usually not just luck.)

I have a short crit table (no fumbles, dropping your sword is silly, having an opponent break it is cool). The players pick from the table and the monsters roll 1d4.

Melee
1. Break shield, or if they don't have a shield their weapon. Hafted weapons become staffs or clubs, swords daggers. Only magic weapons can break magic weapons. Swords only break 2/6 and are flung 10' away otherwise.
2. Push/pull 1d6*5' in any direction. Pushing someone into a crowd causes the entire crowd to move. Pushing them into a wall deals 1d3 damage. If you push them further than 10' you need to follow.
3. Knock prone.
4. Break helmet, or if they don't have a helmet their armor. Broken armor is at -1 AC and fighting in broken armor gives -1 to hit. Only magic weapons can break magic armor.

Missile - Blunt projectiles don't stick in people, their effect last 1d3 rounds instead.
1. Blind (-2 to hit) unless they spend a round wiping blood from their eyes.
2. Hamstring halve movement speed till the arrow is pulled out.
3. Immobilize sword hand making it unuable till arrow is pulled out.
4. Mute can only gurgle till arrow is pulled out. Doing it in 1 round deals 1d6 damage, spending a full turn no damage.

The most dramatic example in my campaign so far was the mage drinking a Potion of Fire Breath and moving to flank a large group of opponents but he was muted by a thrown spear.

With that few options, doesn't it get too repetitive?