Nah, responding to deadDMwalking is just an exercise in pseudointellectual wankery.

Quote from: deadDMwalking on September 01, 2022, 08:21:59 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on September 01, 2022, 05:57:45 PM
So, you are implying that the worst kind of racist is a white supremacist?

I'll take up that position if it is helpful.  In the United States (where I live), I think that white supremacists are the worst kinds of racist.  What kind of racist do you think is worse? 

I'm going to base my position on number of people killed by hate groups.

Quote
Most of the murders (26 of 29) were committed by right-wing extremists, which is usually the case.  However, two killings were committed by Black nationalists and one by an Islamist extremist—the latter being the first such killing since 2018.

Sure, because the ADL cherry-picks which groups they lable "extremist." Why isn't BLM on their list? Or Antifa? Ohhh, because then they'd need to admit that the majority of "extremist-related killings" in 2020/2021 were done by Leftwing extremists.

Also, nice bait-&-switch there. Saying "white supremecists" are the biggest threat, then posting an article that lists extremism in general. I can see now why people call you a disingenous twat.

QuoteYou know how many people were killed by playing Coyote & Crow?  Best I can tell, zero.

That's because any percentage of zero is going to be zero.

Quote from: jhkim on September 01, 2022, 04:36:13 PM

Quote from: Skullking on September 01, 2022, 09:26:00 AM

Quote from: jhkim on August 31, 2022, 09:18:28 PM
I don't game for politics. I game for fun and interest. I have political causes, but I pursue them through avenues other than my gaming.

So in terms of my gaming, I don't much care what the C&C creator's politics are. I know that many people here choose their games based on the politics of the creator (hence Ocule's green/yellow/red lists), but that's not how I approach things. For me, I consider it inefficient in terms of gaining my political goals. I'll game to be creative and have fun, and I'll pursue politics on its own time.

Reality is a complete inversion of what you say. Most posters on here don't game for politics, which is precisely why they generally avoid games that promote extreme politics (e.g. MYFAROG, Coyote & Crow - both as racist as each other in my book). They do not choose games based on the politics of the creators, but do avoid those that promote extreme views that promote division and hate.

We're not a monolith here - posters have a lot of different views. I didn't talk about "most", just "many". Some posters are like me and care about the content inside the game.

However, I think there are many posters who care about the politics of the creators. Maybe not most posters, but a significant fraction. There are often threads about a social media post by a creator that get a lot of attention.

Reality is a complete inversion of what you say. Most Many posters on here don't game for politics, which is precisely why they generally avoid games that promote extreme politics (e.g. MYFAROG, Coyote & Crow - both as racist as each other in my book). They do not choose games based on the politics of the creators, but do avoid those that promote extreme views that promote division and hate.

Fixed it for you.

Quote from: Skullking on September 02, 2022, 05:01:05 AM

Quote from: jhkim on September 01, 2022, 04:36:13 PM
We're not a monolith here - posters have a lot of different views. I didn't talk about "most", just "many". Some posters are like me and care about the content inside the game.

However, I think there are many posters who care about the politics of the creators. Maybe not most posters, but a significant fraction. There are often threads about a social media post by a creator that get a lot of attention.

Reality is a complete inversion of what you say. Most Many posters on here don't game for politics, which is precisely why they generally avoid games that promote extreme politics (e.g. MYFAROG, Coyote & Crow - both as racist as each other in my book). They do not choose games based on the politics of the creators, but do avoid those that promote extreme views that promote division and hate.

Fixed it for you.

Cool. Are we disagreeing, then? It can both be true that there are many posters who don't care about the politics of the creators, and also many posters who do care about the politics of the creators.

Quote from: jhkim on August 31, 2022, 09:18:28 PM
... I game for fun and interest. I have political causes, but I pursue them through avenues other than my gaming.

So in terms of my gaming, I don't much care what the C&C creator's politics are. I know that many people here choose their games based on the politics of the creator (hence Ocule's green/yellow/red lists), but that's not how I approach things. For me, I consider it inefficient in terms of gaining my political goals. I'll game to be creative and have fun, and I'll pursue politics on its own time.

But that's not really the issue here. No one cares what you do, or do not do, at the table (except for Kimosabi Conner). The issue is entirely a moral judgment call on whether someone wants to support a company that takes poltical action outside of the game. Ocule's list reserved primarily for politics within a product, but as some have pointed out in that thread, that may be too narrow a margin.

Consider this: would you buy shoes from a company that you KNOW exploits child labor? Or a cosmetic that's been tested on animals?
Isn't the "important" thing whether the product is comfortable, well-made, and reasonably priced? Who cares who actually makes them, or how it was tested, right? Yet people makes buying-decisions based on these criteria everyday. Are they wrong for doing so? If not, why would it be wrong to not buy a game (that someone might otherwise like) because the creator supports causes that person disagrees with? Just look what happened with My Pillow, or any of the literally dozens (if not hundreds) of boycotts the Progressive Left have organized over the last 5 years. They weren't boycotting because the pillows were made in a third-world sweatshop (they weren't), they boycotted because the owner said things they didn't agree with.

There's no difference here. People are going to buy or not buy a product for reasons entirely independent of the product itself. Its always been that way, and gaming is no exception.

Quote from: jhkim on September 02, 2022, 01:47:27 PM

Quote from: Skullking on September 02, 2022, 05:01:05 AM

Quote from: jhkim on September 01, 2022, 04:36:13 PM
We're not a monolith here - posters have a lot of different views. I didn't talk about "most", just "many". Some posters are like me and care about the content inside the game.

However, I think there are many posters who care about the politics of the creators. Maybe not most posters, but a significant fraction. There are often threads about a social media post by a creator that get a lot of attention.

Reality is a complete inversion of what you say. Most Many posters on here don't game for politics, which is precisely why they generally avoid games that promote extreme politics (e.g. MYFAROG, Coyote & Crow - both as racist as each other in my book). They do not choose games based on the politics of the creators, but do avoid those that promote extreme views that promote division and hate.

Fixed it for you.

Cool. Are we disagreeing, then? It can both be true that there are many posters who don't care about the politics of the creators, and also many posters who do care about the politics of the creators.

If I understand your take correctly - it is that those that game for fun and interest don't care about the politics of the creators.

I'm saying that many on this forum that game for fun and interest do care about the politics of the creators, as they don't want that shit infecting what should be a fun hobby. They do not want to support those creators because they want the hobby to be fun and not a political shit show.

I think our two takes are different.

Quote from: Effete on September 01, 2022, 11:58:17 PM

Quote from: deadDMwalking on September 01, 2022, 08:21:59 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on September 01, 2022, 05:57:45 PM
So, you are implying that the worst kind of racist is a white supremacist?

I'll take up that position if it is helpful.  In the United States (where I live), I think that white supremacists are the worst kinds of racist.  What kind of racist do you think is worse? 

I'm going to base my position on number of people killed by hate groups.

Quote
Most of the murders (26 of 29) were committed by right-wing extremists, which is usually the case.  However, two killings were committed by Black nationalists and one by an Islamist extremist—the latter being the first such killing since 2018.

Sure, because the ADL cherry-picks which groups they lable "extremist." Why isn't BLM on their list? Or Antifa? Ohhh, because then they'd need to admit that the majority of "extremist-related killings" in 2020/2021 were done by Leftwing extremists.

Also, nice bait-&-switch there. Saying "white supremecists" are the biggest threat, then posting an article that lists extremism in general. I can see now why people call you a disingenous twat.

QuoteYou know how many people were killed by playing Coyote & Crow?  Best I can tell, zero.

That's because any percentage of zero is going to be zero.

Snap. I was going to do a bit about the same number of people who were entertained by Coyote & Crow but you got there.

Quote from: jeff37923 on September 01, 2022, 09:07:26 PM
Nah, responding to deadDMwalking is just an exercise in pseudointellectual wankery.

You give him far too much credit.

JHKIM at least comes at these things from a far far far far more grounded standpoint. The problem is his head has been stuffed with SJW brainwashing and, like me, has pretty much had it with the knee-jerk reactions round here. And hes more than a little bit of a pollyanna. And has a slight tendency to fail to see the forest (fire) for the trees.

I would rather take a dozen JHKIMs to one of these hatemongers. Lies wrapped in truths and half truths.

Quote from: Omega on September 02, 2022, 05:52:24 PM
JHKIM at least comes at these things from a far far far far more grounded standpoint. The problem is his head has been stuffed with SJW brainwashing and, like me, has pretty much had it with the knee-jerk reactions round here. And hes more than a little bit of a pollyanna. And has a slight tendency to fail to see the forest (fire) for the trees.

From my point of view, I feel like there are regularly calls of histrionic and perpetual outrage here, and what you call "pollyanna" is my describing of my real-life experience of actual play in the SF Bay area, which is one of the most liberal areas in the country. So if actual gaming was experiencing a giant calamity because of "woke" influence, then presumably I'd see it in the 4+ local gaming conventions I go to each year.

I realize that people here tend to call others the "Outrage Brigade", but I see far more outrage here than in the SF Bay area gamers that I actually play with.

Regarding Coyote & Crow, I think very few people will actually play it. As I said, from reading it, it seems to have a more difficult learning curve than Tekumel - which has a small cult following but also has little actual play. A bunch of people were intrigued by the concept, but the actual play takes too much learning to get into. There have been a bunch of other RPGs in the past briefly lauded for intriguing premise, but little actual play. I'd compare it to the indie RPGs Steal Away Jordan and Kagematsu.

Quote from: jhkim on September 03, 2022, 04:50:37 PM
As I said, from reading it, it seems to have a more difficult learning curve than Tekumel

A steeper learning curve than Tekumel is no small feat. Damn.

Quote from: jhkim on September 03, 2022, 04:50:37 PM
Regarding Coyote & Crow, I think very few people will actually play it. As I said, from reading it, it seems to have a more difficult learning curve than Tekumel - which has a small cult following but also has little actual play. A bunch of people were intrigued by the concept, but the actual play takes too much learning to get into. There have been a bunch of other RPGs in the past briefly lauded for intriguing premise, but little actual play. I'd compare it to the indie RPGs Steal Away Jordan and Kagematsu.

I read Coyote and Crow cover to cover in less than a week (while working full time and handling shuttling kids to and from school, housework, and other hobby activities.  I've written a full review focused on what I saw as faulty mechanics, and I identified a lot of things that I think they could have done slightly better.  But it's a really easy game to learn.  It's also a fairly rules light game, so the only one who really needs to learn the game is the Story Guide (SG). 

As a player, basically everything you do involves rolling a Dice Pool (all d12) and counting successes.  The SG will tell you what you need to roll to count as a success (the default is 8, but some things are easier and might be a 5+ and some things are harder, so they might be an 11+.  The dice pool you use is almost always Attribute + Skill.  For any skill, you'll include your attribute right on the character sheet, so it's clear how many dice you're rolling.  Rarely, you use a custom pool (like Stat + Stat), which is pretty easy since your stats are written as well.  Likewise, you may get bonus dice from equipment, but that'll be a regular feature of play.  Basically, if you attack with a spear once, you're going to know how to build and roll an attack with a spear (or just about any other action) for the future. 

Although the game is almost 500 pages long, the text is very large.  They probably could have gotten it into half that many pages and kept it very legible. 

I don't think complexity is an issue.  I do think distribution is.  Currently it's available on their website and Amazon.  I didn't see it at Barnes & Noble, and I haven't had a chance to go to multiple game stores.  But I actually think that it's a really good game for a beginner.  It's relatively rules-lite, and the focus is on building a story.  As an example, a character cannot die unless the player agrees to it.  Now I understand that a lot of people LIKE frequent character death, but this game is definitely targeting a different play demographic.  Getting it into bookstores rather than gaming stores would do a lot to help it take off.  Like OD&D, it ought to be in Toy Stores (if any of those still existed). 

Quote from: deadDMwalking on September 03, 2022, 09:44:42 PM

Quote from: jhkim on September 03, 2022, 04:50:37 PM
Regarding Coyote & Crow, I think very few people will actually play it. As I said, from reading it, it seems to have a more difficult learning curve than Tekumel - which has a small cult following but also has little actual play. A bunch of people were intrigued by the concept, but the actual play takes too much learning to get into. There have been a bunch of other RPGs in the past briefly lauded for intriguing premise, but little actual play. I'd compare it to the indie RPGs Steal Away Jordan and Kagematsu.

I read Coyote and Crow cover to cover in less than a week (while working full time and handling shuttling kids to and from school, housework, and other hobby activities.  I've written a full review focused on what I saw as faulty mechanics, and I identified a lot of things that I think they could have done slightly better.  But it's a really easy game to learn.  It's also a fairly rules light game, so the only one who really needs to learn the game is the Story Guide (SG). 

As a player, basically everything you do involves rolling a Dice Pool (all d12) and counting successes.  The SG will tell you what you need to roll to count as a success (the default is 8, but some things are easier and might be a 5+ and some things are harder, so they might be an 11+.  The dice pool you use is almost always Attribute + Skill.  For any skill, you'll include your attribute right on the character sheet, so it's clear how many dice you're rolling.  Rarely, you use a custom pool (like Stat + Stat), which is pretty easy since your stats are written as well.  Likewise, you may get bonus dice from equipment, but that'll be a regular feature of play.  Basically, if you attack with a spear once, you're going to know how to build and roll an attack with a spear (or just about any other action) for the future. 

Although the game is almost 500 pages long, the text is very large.  They probably could have gotten it into half that many pages and kept it very legible. 

I don't think complexity is an issue.  I do think distribution is.  Currently it's available on their website and Amazon.  I didn't see it at Barnes & Noble, and I haven't had a chance to go to multiple game stores.  But I actually think that it's a really good game for a beginner.  It's relatively rules-lite, and the focus is on building a story.  As an example, a character cannot die unless the player agrees to it.  Now I understand that a lot of people LIKE frequent character death, but this game is definitely targeting a different play demographic.  Getting it into bookstores rather than gaming stores would do a lot to help it take off.  Like OD&D, it ought to be in Toy Stores (if any of those still existed).

Distribution isn't an issue when customers are seeking out the product - they'll find a way to get it - it isn't like customers are badgering Barnes &  Noble to stock it. It's an issue when they're choosing not to buy it because the author is an ass who told them they were racists if they didn't buy it while at the same time lecturing them on badwrongfun if they buy it and play it - no amount of distribution will change that fact.

Quote from: jhkim on September 03, 2022, 04:50:37 PM

Quote from: Omega on September 02, 2022, 05:52:24 PM
JHKIM at least comes at these things from a far far far far more grounded standpoint. The problem is his head has been stuffed with SJW brainwashing and, like me, has pretty much had it with the knee-jerk reactions round here. And hes more than a little bit of a pollyanna. And has a slight tendency to fail to see the forest (fire) for the trees.

From my point of view, I feel like there are regularly calls of histrionic and perpetual outrage here, and what you call "pollyanna" is my describing of my real-life experience of actual play in the SF Bay area, which is one of the most liberal areas in the country. So if actual gaming was experiencing a giant calamity because of "woke" influence, then presumably I'd see it in the 4+ local gaming conventions I go to each year.

I realize that people here tend to call others the "Outrage Brigade", but I see far more outrage here than in the SF Bay area gamers that I actually play with.

Regarding Coyote & Crow, I think very few people will actually play it. As I said, from reading it, it seems to have a more difficult learning curve than Tekumel - which has a small cult following but also has little actual play. A bunch of people were intrigued by the concept, but the actual play takes too much learning to get into. There have been a bunch of other RPGs in the past briefly lauded for intriguing premise, but little actual play. I'd compare it to the indie RPGs Steal Away Jordan and Kagematsu.

  So you play games with leftist progressives, you are a leftist progressive, in a part of the nation that is the most leftist progressive and see very little "outrage".  Well its because you are all of the same mind and the same bent politically.  I have no doubts you are not going to hear outrage at a game table, because you are all of the same bent.  You are always surrounded by people who know and will follow "the rules". 

Quote from: oggsmash on September 04, 2022, 02:47:14 PM

Quote from: jhkim on September 03, 2022, 04:50:37 PM

Quote from: Omega on September 02, 2022, 05:52:24 PM
JHKIM at least comes at these things from a far far far far more grounded standpoint. The problem is his head has been stuffed with SJW brainwashing and, like me, has pretty much had it with the knee-jerk reactions round here. And hes more than a little bit of a pollyanna. And has a slight tendency to fail to see the forest (fire) for the trees.

From my point of view, I feel like there are regularly calls of histrionic and perpetual outrage here, and what you call "pollyanna" is my describing of my real-life experience of actual play in the SF Bay area, which is one of the most liberal areas in the country. So if actual gaming was experiencing a giant calamity because of "woke" influence, then presumably I'd see it in the 4+ local gaming conventions I go to each year.

I realize that people here tend to call others the "Outrage Brigade", but I see far more outrage here than in the SF Bay area gamers that I actually play with.

Regarding Coyote & Crow, I think very few people will actually play it. As I said, from reading it, it seems to have a more difficult learning curve than Tekumel - which has a small cult following but also has little actual play. A bunch of people were intrigued by the concept, but the actual play takes too much learning to get into. There have been a bunch of other RPGs in the past briefly lauded for intriguing premise, but little actual play. I'd compare it to the indie RPGs Steal Away Jordan and Kagematsu.

  So you play games with leftist progressives, you are a leftist progressive, in a part of the nation that is the most leftist progressive and see very little "outrage".  Well its because you are all of the same mind and the same bent politically.  I have no doubts you are not going to hear outrage at a game table, because you are all of the same bent.  You are always surrounded by people who know and will follow "the rules".

I believe the term you're looking for is "echo chamber."

I find it very telling that there are people who were former leftists who've claimed they haven't moved right, but that the left has moved further left. When you are that proverbial frog in the pot, you never notice that unless you do some serious introspection - something most leftists are incapable of.

Quote from: 3catcircus on September 04, 2022, 03:32:17 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on September 04, 2022, 02:47:14 PM

Quote from: jhkim on September 03, 2022, 04:50:37 PM

Quote from: Omega on September 02, 2022, 05:52:24 PM
JHKIM at least comes at these things from a far far far far more grounded standpoint. The problem is his head has been stuffed with SJW brainwashing and, like me, has pretty much had it with the knee-jerk reactions round here. And hes more than a little bit of a pollyanna. And has a slight tendency to fail to see the forest (fire) for the trees.

From my point of view, I feel like there are regularly calls of histrionic and perpetual outrage here, and what you call "pollyanna" is my describing of my real-life experience of actual play in the SF Bay area, which is one of the most liberal areas in the country. So if actual gaming was experiencing a giant calamity because of "woke" influence, then presumably I'd see it in the 4+ local gaming conventions I go to each year.

I realize that people here tend to call others the "Outrage Brigade", but I see far more outrage here than in the SF Bay area gamers that I actually play with.

Regarding Coyote & Crow, I think very few people will actually play it. As I said, from reading it, it seems to have a more difficult learning curve than Tekumel - which has a small cult following but also has little actual play. A bunch of people were intrigued by the concept, but the actual play takes too much learning to get into. There have been a bunch of other RPGs in the past briefly lauded for intriguing premise, but little actual play. I'd compare it to the indie RPGs Steal Away Jordan and Kagematsu.

  So you play games with leftist progressives, you are a leftist progressive, in a part of the nation that is the most leftist progressive and see very little "outrage".  Well its because you are all of the same mind and the same bent politically.  I have no doubts you are not going to hear outrage at a game table, because you are all of the same bent.  You are always surrounded by people who know and will follow "the rules".

I believe the term you're looking for is "echo chamber."

I find it very telling that there are people who were former leftists who've claimed they haven't moved right, but that the left has moved further left. When you are that proverbial frog in the pot, you never notice that unless you do some serious introspection - something most leftists are incapable of.

After you already received a previous warning, you made this post that is not actually within the specific subject matter of the topic. You didn't veer into other political discussion with it, so I'm giving you one more chance: do NOT post in this thread again, and do not post off-topic in any other thread on the RPG discussion subforum. If you do, you will be permanently banned.