Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 24, 2022, 10:44:55 PM

Quote from: Aglondir on August 24, 2022, 10:19:07 PM

Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 24, 2022, 11:53:48 AM
...He specifically suggests 4 actions that players should not do:
1) Choose a real-world heritage
2) Choosing a two-spirit identity
3) inserting vocabulary from an Indigenous language if it isn't a proper noun or included in their guide
4) Speaking or acting in a fashion that mimics what are almost certainly negative stereotypes of Native Americans.
...

I can't stand all that 'walking on eggshells lark'.

Any reason you can't choose a real-world heritage?
A two-spirit?
Indigenous language... Why be so anal unless you are a native American? I'm not going to correct some tourists' use of improper use of the 'Irish' language. That would also apply to gamers. We butcher it constantly.

Negative stereotypes? Pretty much every game uses stereotypes good and bad. Italian Mafia... Irish Drunkards and bombers... Islamic terrorists... Corrupt Clergy. Again, it's only a game. I've no problem using stereotypes if it enhances the character and gaming experience. That's not to say I'd go out of my way to upset someone per se. These people really need to get a thicker skin. Now, if the 'intent' is to be cruel or just to piss everyone off, however, then that's a different thing and not something I'd support.

It's somewhat a moot point as this is not the game I'd play. And if I did I'd take a 'redacted' marker to that box of text and all the other nanny-state childish finger-wagging. The best way to deal with these people is just to totally ignore them and their products.

They can bleat day and night from the sidelines it makes no odds to me... 

Greetings!

YEP! So true!

Load up the stereotypes! Whaa! Whaa!

This clown's nanny-state condescension makes me purposefully want to run a Coyote & Clown campaign, just to absolutely WRECK IT.

Open up a gateway in the North, and let Khorne come on in. Open a gateway in the South, and let Slaanesh sweep in. Lots of crazy orgies, bloody sacrifices, and epic genocide. Oh, and millions broken to the chains of slavery.

No escape. No mercy.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 24, 2022, 10:46:19 PM
PS - I'm too lazy to correct that stoopid quote thingey.

Hi Rob,

Would you mind fixing it? It looks like I said something that someone else said, when I only asked the question "What's a two-spirit identity, and why can't I play that?"

Thanks

Quote from: Aglondir on August 24, 2022, 10:54:51 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 24, 2022, 10:46:19 PM
PS - I'm too lazy to correct that stoopid quote thingey.

Hi Rob,

Would you mind fixing it? It looks like I said it, when I only asked the question "What is two-spirit identity, and why can't I play one?"

Thanks

Uh... Sure. I'll try...

EDIT: Done.

Quote from: SHARK on August 24, 2022, 10:53:32 PM
Greetings!

YEP! So true!

Load up the stereotypes! Whaa! Whaa!

This clown's nanny-state condescension makes me purposefully want to run a Coyote & Clown campaign, just to absolutely WRECK IT.

Open up a gateway in the North, and let Khorne come on in. Open a gateway in the South, and let Slaanesh sweep in. Lots of crazy orgies, bloody sacrifices, and epic genocide. Oh, and millions broken to the chains of slavery.

No escape. No mercy.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Ha ha... Now that's a game I'd play Shark!! Right up my alley. 

Blood for the blood god!

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 24, 2022, 10:35:02 PM

Quote from: Aglondir on August 24, 2022, 10:19:07 PM

Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 24, 2022, 11:53:48 AM
...He specifically suggests 4 actions that players should not do:
1) Choose a real-world heritage
2) Choosing a two-spirit identity
3) inserting vocabulary from an Indigenous language if it isn't a proper noun or included in their guide
4) Speaking or acting in a fashion that mimics what are almost certainly negative stereotypes of Native Americans.
...

What's a two-spirit identity, and why can't I play that?

Being cray cray and believing you're an otherkin or you have headmates (voices in your head).

You are either lying, or misinformed.

Two-Spirit is a term for one Native American group's interpretation of what we call homosexuality and transgendered identity. At puberty, some Native tribes (the Sioux tribes definitely, I don't know about others) would offer each child a choice of path between the man's path and the woman's path. Almost all would follow the path of their biological sex, but every so often someone would choose the other path. These people were called Two-spirit and considered to be blessed by the Creator with both male and female spiritual energy, and were often put into roles that involved bridging gaps between groups: one of the most famous Sioux ambassadors to the US governmen was a Two-Spirit "princess" who the whites completely freaked out about when they discovered she had a cock and balls.

So, Connor doesn't want white-eyes pretending to be spiritually powerful t-girls (or t-bois). And yes, that's me being racist.

Quote from: ScytheSong on August 24, 2022, 11:10:49 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 24, 2022, 10:35:02 PM

Quote from: Aglondir on August 24, 2022, 10:19:07 PM

Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 24, 2022, 11:53:48 AM
...He specifically suggests 4 actions that players should not do:
1) Choose a real-world heritage
2) Choosing a two-spirit identity
3) inserting vocabulary from an Indigenous language if it isn't a proper noun or included in their guide
4) Speaking or acting in a fashion that mimics what are almost certainly negative stereotypes of Native Americans.
...

What's a two-spirit identity, and why can't I play that?

Being cray cray and believing you're an otherkin or you have headmates (voices in your head).

You are either lying, or misinformed.

Two-Spirit is a term for one Native American group's interpretation of what we call homosexuality and transgendered identity. At puberty, some Native tribes (the Sioux tribes definitely, I don't know about others) would offer each child a choice of path between the man's path and the woman's path. Almost all would follow the path of their biological sex, but every so often someone would choose the other path. These people were called Two-spirit and considered to be blessed by the Creator with both male and female spiritual energy, and were often put into roles that involved bridging gaps between groups: one of the most famous Sioux ambassadors to the US governmen was a Two-Spirit "princess" who the whites completely freaked out about when they discovered she had a cock and balls.

So, Connor doesn't want white-eyes pretending to be spiritually powerful t-girls (or t-bois). And yes, that's me being racist.

So they were either gay or cray cray and thought they were the other sex, got it.

Also, they discovered that HE had a cock and balls.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 24, 2022, 11:50:35 PM

So they were either gay or cray cray and thought they were the other sex, got it.

Also, they discovered that HE had a cock and balls.

Autistic idiot *was* the third option that I didn't include last time. If you can't handle the way other cultures handle things, why the hell do you like role-playing games?

Quote from: ScytheSong on August 24, 2022, 11:10:49 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 24, 2022, 10:35:02 PM

Quote from: Aglondir on August 24, 2022, 10:19:07 PM

Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 24, 2022, 11:53:48 AM
...He specifically suggests 4 actions that players should not do:
1) Choose a real-world heritage
2) Choosing a two-spirit identity
3) inserting vocabulary from an Indigenous language if it isn't a proper noun or included in their guide
4) Speaking or acting in a fashion that mimics what are almost certainly negative stereotypes of Native Americans.
...

What's a two-spirit identity, and why can't I play that?

Being cray cray and believing you're an otherkin or you have headmates (voices in your head).

You are either lying, or misinformed.

Two-Spirit is a term for one Native American group's interpretation of what we call homosexuality and transgendered identity. At puberty, some Native tribes (the Sioux tribes definitely, I don't know about others) would offer each child a choice of path between the man's path and the woman's path. Almost all would follow the path of their biological sex,

Quote from: ScytheSong on August 24, 2022, 11:10:49 PM
Two-Spirit is a term for one Native American group's interpretation of what we call homosexuality and transgendered identity. At puberty, some Native tribes (the Sioux tribes definitely, I don't know about others) would offer each child a choice of path between the man's path and the woman's path. Almost all would follow the path of their biological sex, but every so often someone would choose the other path.

So definitely in the minority then, there's a surprise!

There is an interview with the Coyote and Crow creator at EnWorld. 

Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 26, 2022, 01:50:38 PM
There is an interview with the Coyote and Crow creator at EnWorld.

No, really?

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/enworld-s-decay/

Regarding the author's advice on non-native players not playing real-world identities.

1) Outside of Coyote & Crow, I've had a number of games where there were Native American PCs played by non-native players. I had a long-standing Vinland campaign set in an alternate history 1392 in the Northeast, and ran a larp based on earlier in that timeline at several local conventions. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Thus, I don't consider this advice to be generic "don't be an asshole" or common sense.

2) Within C&C, playing a real-world identity - like playing a Lenape, say - isn't like playing a historical or modern-day character. Playing such a character inherently involves answering the question "What would Lenape culture be like if there were no European contact and instead they developed differently for 700 years?" That still doesn't mean I agree with the opinion, but it's dealing with sensitivity over an issue that's much more specific than just role-playing characters in general.

3) It doesn't seem like a big of a limitation on play. Non-native players can play any of the options that are in the book. The advice is just that they not go beyond what is in the book. The limit is more parallel to saying that you can't play a ninja in a D&D game. Yes, someone can play a Japanese ninja in a D&D game if the DM allows, but saying that you can't play a ninja (or other real-world imports) isn't a major limitation for players.

4) In any case, it's just a bit of author opinion. Game groups can do whatever they want.


Overall, this is a specific piece of advice. I don't advocate it, and I play differently in my own games unrelated to C&C. Still, if I were running C&C at a convention, I'd probably follow it because that's what players would be expecting.

Ultimately it doesn't matter what the designer says, there's no way a Caucasian can safely engage this game publicly without risking attack from the existing 'fanbase'. The fact no direct analogues to real cultures exists doesn't matter as the aesthetic alone is problematic. These are the same people who think #BladeRunner fetishizes Asian culture. Now imagine replacing that with Native American inspired motifs.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on August 15, 2022, 12:09:02 PM
Didn't a YouTuber have to apologize just last year for role-playing a pre-generated Asian character in a live stream?

That would be Matt Mercer when he attempted to play a game written and run by award winning Black designer Chris Spivey.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on August 15, 2022, 12:09:02 PM
And this wasn't a one-time things. Here's an article from February of this year condemning Critical Role for setting a campaign in north Africa
https://www.kotaku.com.au/2022/02/the-problem-with-critical-roles-latest-campaign/

Oh look they're turning on Matt Mercer again. I wonder why.

Quote from: Osman Gazi on August 23, 2022, 01:34:22 PM
And the "Opportunities& Partnerships" at https://coyoteandcrow.net/2021/05/09/coyote-crow-creative-opportunities/ ?  Love this racist part: "Non-Natives are welcome to apply for any positions that aren't called out as Native only positions."  (emphasis added).
So, you gladly embrace racial discrimination in your employment?  I hope someone sues this jerk, but I doubt if the EEOC would touch this with a ten foot pole.  And on the same page, he's looking for Cosplayers?  Gee, I'm sure he'll be fine with a Nordic blond hair-blue eyed dude with a gigantic beard cosplaying as a Native American.  I'm sure he'd have no problem with that.  [/SARCASM]

At least the Cosplay positions aren't labeled as "Native Only" 😜

Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 23, 2022, 07:34:32 PM
When you make fun of yourself, you usually have a lot of latitude.  When you make fun of someone else, they're going to have a sense of humor about it until they don't.  When you 'respectfully incorporate your understanding of a culture that you're not a part of' you can really help them have a good time - but you also risk doing something foolish or insulting that you weren't even aware of.  That's a risk you're free to take, especially with your friends, but it's  also a risk that the author shouldn't feel uncomfortable about highlighting.

Fair enough.

But now the designer is calling White people racist if they decide not to take that risk.

Quote from: Osman Gazi on August 24, 2022, 09:55:31 AM
There is a giant exception to this very example: Drag Queens.  They play up a slutty, over-sexualized stereotype of women.  Yet they're rarely criticized on these grounds.  Indeed, if a woman does criticize a Drag Queen as "appropriating femininity" , chances are they're going to be judged negatively for that.

On the contrary Drag Queens are actually quite despised among the woke intelligentsia. They're just tolerated because at the moment they're still somewhat useful to the cause.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on August 26, 2022, 07:39:16 PMOn the contrary Drag Queens are actually quite despised among the woke intelligentsia. They're just tolerated because at the moment they're still somewhat useful to the cause.

Well the woke just hate EVERYTHING including their own. But within that power higharchy Drag Queens rate quite high. Thats why they are for them reading to children and such.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on August 26, 2022, 07:39:16 PM

Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 23, 2022, 07:34:32 PM
When you make fun of yourself, you usually have a lot of latitude.  When you make fun of someone else, they're going to have a sense of humor about it until they don't.  When you 'respectfully incorporate your understanding of a culture that you're not a part of' you can really help them have a good time - but you also risk doing something foolish or insulting that you weren't even aware of.  That's a risk you're free to take, especially with your friends, but it's  also a risk that the author shouldn't feel uncomfortable about highlighting.

Fair enough.

But now the designer is calling White people racist if they decide not to take that risk.

In the blog post under discussion, he suggests that if the only reason you're not willing to play this game is because you are uncomfortable imagining yourself as a member of a different race, that's racist.  There's lots of 'good reasons' not to play this game, like not finding the premise or setting interesting.  I don't think playing a character of a different race is racist (at least, not inherently - you can absolutely take it to an extreme that is pretty offensive to some people); I think refusing to imagine what it might be like as someone with different life-experiences or skin color does sound a little intolerant.