Quote from: Continental on August 22, 2022, 08:07:36 AM
I assume the company are fine with white people playing the Mythic America minis game? (or the RPG)

Or do they have disclaimers too?

Absolutely nothing of the sort. Might be a little of the opposite in fact. The creator really seams like he want to share American mythology. Like I mentioned before, the game doesn't try to sugar coat stuff from these cultures. One of the secondary objectives you can pick is to perform endocannibalism on your fallen units to honor them.

Quote from: Continental on August 22, 2022, 08:07:36 AM
I assume the company are fine with white people playing the Mythic America minis game? (or the RPG)

Or do they have disclaimers too?

No disclaimers. The link jhkim posted was a Word from the Author. Makes it clear the myths of Native Americans is a passion of his he wants to share but ultimately it is a work of fiction. Which shouldn't need to be stated but these days there are a lot of odd sorts who don't really understand the difference between reality and fantasy.

Wow, it almost feels like they love their mythological passion - warts and all - and can't wait to share it with others.

I'll definitely look into the RPG when it comes out, thanks for conforming that. 

Quote from: Wheetaye on August 22, 2022, 08:22:53 AM
One of the secondary objectives you can pick is to perform endocannibalism on your fallen units to honor them.

But that's not right at all! I read Radiant Citadel and they assured me the only sacrifices Mesoamericans ever made were baked goods. Why would they lie to me about that???

<sarcasm off!>

Honestly this seems to be what happens when a creator is motivated by their love of the subject and wants to share it, as opposed to someone like Big White Chief Connor who is motivated by scoring woke points and $$$.

Quote from: jhkim on August 19, 2022, 04:34:03 PM
Coyote & Crow is a sci-fi game set in A.D. 2112 of an alternate history/future.

Given this portentous setting date I can see the possibility for an adventure or campaign where the goal of the party (maximum size of three) would be to discover an ancient miracle of the elder race, allowing them to attempt to free the future from the oppressive orthodoxy. The one where they've taken care of everything, the words we read, the songs we sing, the pictures that give pleasure to our eye...

Quote from: rhialto on August 23, 2022, 07:54:48 AM

Quote from: jhkim on August 19, 2022, 04:34:03 PM
Coyote & Crow is a sci-fi game set in A.D. 2112 of an alternate history/future.

Given this portentous setting date I can see the possibility for an adventure or campaign where the goal of the party (maximum size of three) would be to discover an ancient miracle of the elder race, allowing them to attempt to free the future from the oppressive orthodoxy. The one where they've taken care of everything, the words we read, the songs we sing, the pictures that give pleasure to our eye...

+1.
Well done.

I only read some of that blog post, and the screenshots from the book.  I still think its funny that someone making a book is trying to tell people how to act at the table or what to do when they play the game

When I first read about the Kickstarter, I was enthusiastic, and signed up nearly immediately.  I thought--"Cool!  Not enough games about Native Americans, and love a futuristic setting!"

I say this, married to a woman who's DNA has been tested and is approximately 66% Indigenous (South American), and my kids therefore are about 33% Native American.  (My wife and son look pretty native, but my daughter takes after me--and I have zero Native American DNA).  I thought it would be another way to try to get my kids exposed to the hobby, not just Eurocentric or Asiacentric Fantasy (not that either one of these is bad, but variety is good.)

I didn't mind reading about my people being killed off in a disaster.  Hey, it's an alterative history.  I wasn't offended in the least--it was an interesting "what if?" like The Years of Rice and Salt.  I'm not going to say that's racist in and of itself.  Europe had a huge, huge effect on the development of the world in the last five hundred years, and taking it out of the equation allows for some rather interesting "what if" scenarios.

And then I read pp 12-13, "A Message To non-Native American Players".  Ok, so don't be an asshole when you play--maybe more than a tiny bit woke, but frankly, I could ignore it.  He's not going to send cops to arrest me for cultural appropriation.  He doesn't have the power.  (Not yet, anyway.)  But hey, I'm not even sure if it had to be said in any way, shape or form.  Someone acting in a racist way in a game is not cool, and I don't think they'd be invited back.  And as far as someone who has extensive knowledge of native cultures not using that knowledge, because they're not native? Screw that.  Knowledge isn't invalidated because you're not a member of the ethnic, religious, or racial group you've studied.  It's crap woke thinking to say that you have to keep mum on that because your skin isn't the right color.  Yes, it can be condescending and inaccurate, but that's the problem--not the race of the person who says it.

And then, his announcement in the OP of this thread.  What an asshole.  Screw him.  Not a dime more to him.

The links the posters have given have been gold.  Like the utterly inane "non-native North American" at https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/connoralexander/coyote-and-crow/comments who wrote: "When I watched Black Panther and saw Wakanda for the first time, I wept at the beauty of what could have been were it not for violence and colonization. Coyote & Crow gave me the same reaction about my home continent. A thousand thanks!"  Yeah, because Wakanda would have just arisen automatically if it wasn't because of colonization...forgetting the Vibranium (i.e., a highly improbable miracle metal that makes for a fun story but completely unrealistic) that made it possible...and glossing over all of the violence that Africans have done to themselves long before Europeans came.

And the "Opportunities& Partnerships" at https://coyoteandcrow.net/2021/05/09/coyote-crow-creative-opportunities/ ?  Love this racist part: "Non-Natives are welcome to apply for any positions that aren't called out as Native only positions."  (emphasis added).
So, you gladly embrace racial discrimination in your employment?  I hope someone sues this jerk, but I doubt if the EEOC would touch this with a ten foot pole.  And on the same page, he's looking for Cosplayers?  Gee, I'm sure he'll be fine with a Nordic blond hair-blue eyed dude with a gigantic beard cosplaying as a Native American.  I'm sure he'd have no problem with that.  [/SARCASM]

Fundamentally, it's another example of how many in the hobby--heck, many in this culture--which seem to fundamentally hate people like me.  Screw them.  Not a dime more to these kind of companies.

I will add plenty of european americans have embraced and adopted native american ideas/stories/customs over the years, its one reason why there are so many people with 1/16th or less native american dna in their make up, there was plenty of acceptance and integration. many people have studied the tribes and their history without even being connected to them by blood, and many different states, cities, and rivers use native american words for their names.   I've been thinking about doing a NA inspired rpg supplement/game that does a dive into different real tribes for the setting, might actually get to it some day, who knows.

I think it would have been more interesting, if you are going for science fiction, to have had a Native American colony on a hostile world. Leave the rest of the Earth for the GM to develop. Maybe even make it a setting supplement to an existing game. But if you did that wouldn't get to virtual signal for attention.

ohhh, or here's an idea. Just hear me out. The utopian without conflict C&C crew go into space and inadvertently lead a group of aliens back....who then start colonizing.

Quote from: Osman Gazi on August 23, 2022, 01:34:22 PM
When I first read about the Kickstarter, I was enthusiastic, and signed up nearly immediately.  I thought--"Cool!  Not enough games about Native Americans, and love a futuristic setting!"

...

Quote from: Osman Gazi on August 23, 2022, 01:34:22 PM
Yes, it can be condescending and inaccurate, but that's the problem--not the race of the person who says it.

And then, his announcement in the OP of this thread.  What an asshole.  Screw him.  Not a dime more to him.

Interesting. It seems that for you, what's important is the values that the author expresses in online posts.

For me, I don't give a damn about what an author says on social media. I buy gaming products based on whether I think they'd be fun for me to play, or give useful ideas for other games.

When the Coyote & Crow Kickstarter came out, this was an author with no other RPG credits and an untested genre. Thus, I didn't sign up. I almost never sign up for a Kickstarter unless it's for a personal friend. After it came out, I borrowed a copy to read through, and I still haven't paid any money for it.

Reading through it, I think the book seems pretty good. It's well-produced and has a lot of good material. However, the biggest issue is a conceptual one that it's got a tough learning curve. I can't see running it as a one-shot game because there are too many things to explain -- the new system, the unique technology, the psychic powers, and especially the society and way of life. I'd considered running a one-shot to try it out, but the learning curve has put me off from that.

Quote from: jhkim on August 23, 2022, 05:36:04 PM

Quote from: Osman Gazi on August 23, 2022, 01:34:22 PM
When I first read about the Kickstarter, I was enthusiastic, and signed up nearly immediately.  I thought--"Cool!  Not enough games about Native Americans, and love a futuristic setting!"

...

Quote from: Osman Gazi on August 23, 2022, 01:34:22 PM
Yes, it can be condescending and inaccurate, but that's the problem--not the race of the person who says it.

And then, his announcement in the OP of this thread.  What an asshole.  Screw him.  Not a dime more to him.

Interesting. It seems that for you, what's important is the values that the author expresses in online posts.

Well, yeah, to a certain extent.  To use two examples at the extreme end of things: let's say he expressed that chocolate sucks, and vanilla is the only flavor of ice cream worthy of eating.  I'd disagree with him, but I don't care.  Or on the other extreme end of things: let's say he said that all religious people should be lined up and shot--then there's no way I'd support him, doesn't matter if the game is pure gold.  There are certain things with which the author I can disagree, but I'm fine with patronizing them.  There are other things that cross the line.  Having racist hiring practices crosses the line, and he has them.  Dictating how one can use his product while expressing contempt for people that don't see eye to eye with him--why should I give him my money?

QuoteFor me, I don't give a damn about what an author says on social media. I buy gaming products based on whether I think they'd be fun for me to play, or give useful ideas for other games.

That's you.  That's fine.  I have different standards than you.  That's ok.

The author is going to give professional advice.  That's going to include game mechanics and that's going to include recommendations for players feeling included and comfortable.  Like all advice (even advice you've paid for) it's up to you to take it or leave it. 

But before you leave it, I think it's worth looking at a little more carefully. 

Setting aside race and ethnicity for a moment, imagine that you have a male player that decides to play a female character.  Further, let's say that that this particular female character is dialed up on the 'slut-o-meter' to the point that the player's goal is to jump every john in the game.  Now, while we can imagine that there may be females in the world that are 'easy' and or someone could even exist that was in real life exactly the same way, in the game a lot of people, male and female, may find that that it presents an insulting stereotype or caricature.  But while it's easy to imagine someone that is WAY over the line, we all recognize that where we draw the line personally varies.  Some players are going to be okay with John (playing Cathy) make a move on NPC Mr. Church; some are not.

If Cathy were played by a woman, a lot of people wouldn't even worry about it to the same degree.  If Cathy does everything that John does, our perception of whether John is crossing the line, or approaching the line or way the hell over the line is a little more flexible - in part because she's in on the joke. 

When you make fun of yourself, you usually have a lot of latitude.  When you make fun of someone else, they're going to have a sense of humor about it until they don't.  When you 'respectfully incorporate your understanding of a culture that you're not a part of' you can really help them have a good time - but you also risk doing something foolish or insulting that you weren't even aware of.  That's a risk you're free to take, especially with your friends, but it's  also a risk that the author shouldn't feel uncomfortable about highlighting. 

And this is especially true because there is a fictional social group presented that allows you to carefully avoid calling attention to a real extant social group that is dealing with some real shit outside of the game world like balancing tribal government versus state/city, providing social services and opportunity, trying to maintain a distinct culture among a much larger 'consumer culture'. 

If I want to style myself a Chippewa Warrior, I can do that.  But the author isn't wrong to tell me why there's a good chance that, despite whatever research I've done, I'm likely to misrepresent (at least in the minds of authentic Chippewa) their authentic culture.  At best, my research is only as good as my sources, and there are some unreliable sources on...just about anything. 

Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 23, 2022, 07:34:32 PM
The author is going to give professional advice.  That's going to include game mechanics and that's going to include recommendations for players feeling included and comfortable.  Like all advice (even advice you've paid for) it's up to you to take it or leave it. 

But before you leave it, I think it's worth looking at a little more carefully. 

Setting aside race and ethnicity for a moment, imagine that you have a male player that decides to play a female character.  Further, let's say that that this particular female character is dialed up on the 'slut-o-meter' to the point that the player's goal is to jump every john in the game.  Now, while we can imagine that there may be females in the world that are 'easy' and or someone could even exist that was in real life exactly the same way, in the game a lot of people, male and female, may find that that it presents an insulting stereotype or caricature.  But while it's easy to imagine someone that is WAY over the line, we all recognize that where we draw the line personally varies.  Some players are going to be okay with John (playing Cathy) make a move on NPC Mr. Church; some are not.

If Cathy were played by a woman, a lot of people wouldn't even worry about it to the same degree.  If Cathy does everything that John does, our perception of whether John is crossing the line, or approaching the line or way the hell over the line is a little more flexible - in part because she's in on the joke. 

When you make fun of yourself, you usually have a lot of latitude.  When you make fun of someone else, they're going to have a sense of humor about it until they don't.  When you 'respectfully incorporate your understanding of a culture that you're not a part of' you can really help them have a good time - but you also risk doing something foolish or insulting that you weren't even aware of.  That's a risk you're free to take, especially with your friends, but it's  also a risk that the author shouldn't feel uncomfortable about highlighting. 

And this is especially true because there is a fictional social group presented that allows you to carefully avoid calling attention to a real extant social group that is dealing with some real shit outside of the game world like balancing tribal government versus state/city, providing social services and opportunity, trying to maintain a distinct culture among a much larger 'consumer culture'. 

If I want to style myself a Chippewa Warrior, I can do that.  But the author isn't wrong to tell me why there's a good chance that, despite whatever research I've done, I'm likely to misrepresent (at least in the minds of authentic Chippewa) their authentic culture.  At best, my research is only as good as my sources, and there are some unreliable sources on...just about anything.

So, is there a rule you have about women interpreting men? Or does your razor only cut one way?

Do white people get to tell the Chipewa they shouldn't play as white people or does your razor only cut one way?

I bet I know the answer.

As for some Chipewa somewhere, someday, finding out somehow I interpret a character with all the stereotypes dialed up to 99 and maybe getting offended, the author, you and every other moral busibody can get fucked.