Quote from: Wheetaye on August 19, 2022, 07:04:19 AM

Quote from: TheShadow on August 19, 2022, 06:26:09 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Falls_massacre

This kind of history could be ripe for RPG scenarios...would Coyote and Crow work?

No, because that story involves evil, colonialist Europeans.

Coyote & Crow is a sci-fi game set in A.D. 2112 of an alternate history/future. While the dice mechanics are general enough to work, none of the character creation, equipment, or other material would work for a historical game. It's not written as a generic universal system, though with work it could be adapted.

This is like asking if the Cyberpunk RPG would work to run a Revolutionary War game, or complaining about how the Cyberpunk RPG is set in the U.S. but doesn't talk about slavery. Life in Cyberpunk Atlanta is vastly different than in 1770's Georgia.

I think it would work fine to add in first contact with Europeans in Coyote & Crow. That might be an interesting campaign possibility.

Quote from: jhkim on August 19, 2022, 04:34:03 PM
I think it would work fine to add in first contact with Europeans in Coyote & Crow. That might be an interesting campaign possibility.

I agree that would be interesting, different cultures meeting while exploring a new space frontier.

Funnily enough someone asked if they could add vikings to the story on his forum, and was told no because 'it's not their story'. Why does he need permission? If you have the book, how is he going to stop you doing whatever you want with it?

What really bothers me is that - for the purposes of this game - they made up a gestalt fictional Native tribe with its own language, presumably with actual natives advising as to its general authenticity. Good move really, so we have purely fictional tribespeople, not mimicking a particular real-world tribe, so there's no real-world arguments and nobody taking offense. And you can't culturally-appropriate a completely made-up native tribe, right? So the idea seems to support other races playing with that concept and adding their own elements right, because it's an entirely fictional thing, like elves or dwarves, something that doesn't actually exist so nobody should get offended? .   

But they still forbid Whitey from changing anything or playing certain roles, even though it's an entirely fictional setting with a tribe and traditions that don't exist in real life and were created for the purpose of playing the game...?

What am I missing?

(But then I remembered they had to change orcs to the good guys in D&D One because the blue checkmarks got mad about racism directed against creatures than didn't actually exist...)

Quote from: jhkim on August 19, 2022, 04:34:03 PM

Quote from: Wheetaye on August 19, 2022, 07:04:19 AM

Quote from: TheShadow on August 19, 2022, 06:26:09 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Falls_massacre

This kind of history could be ripe for RPG scenarios...would Coyote and Crow work?

No, because that story involves evil, colonialist Europeans.

Coyote & Crow is a sci-fi game set in A.D. 2112 of an alternate history/future. While the dice mechanics are general enough to work, none of the character creation, equipment, or other material would work for a historical game. It's not written as a generic universal system, though with work it could be adapted.

This is like asking if the Cyberpunk RPG would work to run a Revolutionary War game, or complaining about how the Cyberpunk RPG is set in the U.S. but doesn't talk about slavery. Life in Cyberpunk Atlanta is vastly different than in 1770's Georgia.

I think it would work fine to add in first contact with Europeans in Coyote & Crow. That might be an interesting campaign possibility.

Snark aside, you're being literal out of autism or out of being a disingenuos twat?

Quote from: Continental on August 19, 2022, 04:43:40 PM
Funnily enough someone asked if they could add vikings to the story on his forum, and was told no because 'it's not their story'. Why does he need permission? If you have the book, how is he going to stop you doing whatever you want with it?

Obviously, he doesn't need the author's permission. RPG authors can often be opinionated about how people play their game, but no one needs the author's permission. Gary Gygax had a rant against people using spell points and other variants in D&D in The Dragon #16 (see "Role-Playing: Realism vs. Game Logic; Spell Points, Vanity Press and Rip-offs" on page 15). But people could and did use spell points and other variants despite Gygax's protests.

Likewise, the author also has an opinion against non-native people playing real-world native cultures, but again, that's his opinion. Lots of RPG authors say something or other I disagree with. They're free to give their opinion, and I can do whatever I want in my campaign. 

The game has fictional culture as a device - but it fits well given that the game is set in A.D. 2112 after a massive divergence 710 years earlier. For comparison, modern-day Europeans in 2022 have very different national/cultural divisions than seven hundred years earlier, and it hasn't had a massive cataclysm that the game has.

Quote from: jhkim on August 20, 2022, 08:28:35 PM

Quote from: Continental on August 19, 2022, 04:43:40 PM
Funnily enough someone asked if they could add vikings to the story on his forum, and was told no because 'it's not their story'. Why does he need permission? If you have the book, how is he going to stop you doing whatever you want with it?

Obviously, he doesn't need the author's permission. RPG authors can often be opinionated about how people play their game, but no one needs the author's permission. Gary Gygax had a rant against people using spell points and other variants in D&D in The Dragon #16 (see "Role-Playing: Realism vs. Game Logic; Spell Points, Vanity Press and Rip-offs" on page 15). But people could and did use spell points and other variants despite Gygax's protests.

Likewise, the author also has an opinion against non-native people playing real-world native cultures, but again, that's his opinion. Lots of RPG authors say something or other I disagree with. They're free to give their opinion, and I can do whatever I want in my campaign. 

The game has fictional culture as a device - but it fits well given that the game is set in A.D. 2112 after a massive divergence 710 years earlier. For comparison, modern-day Europeans in 2022 have very different national/cultural divisions than seven hundred years earlier, and it hasn't had a massive cataclysm that the game has.

Gary's rant was about the use of a game mechanic.

The author of Coyote and Crow is making a moral judgement against those who would violate his racially isolationist vision of the setting. If you do so it makes you a bad person according to him. That's part of the reason why there are people afraid to play the game. Imagine being a non-Native American group thinking of live-streaming a session. One wrong step and the author can bring down SJW Hell upon you. It could impact your reputation, your work opportunities in the hobby, or even your income directly if you were using streaming/social media for income.

If Gary was alive today and saw a streamer using spell points in a D&D game, he might call it dumb, and leave it at that, though I think as he got older he may have mellowed out on those points. Gary wouldn't be able to impugn your moral character, send a social media mob after you, and make you a pariah in gaming. There is a difference in what the Coyote and Crow author is doing, and it is evil.

Quote from: wmarshal on August 20, 2022, 09:31:38 PMImagine being a non-Native American group thinking of live-streaming a session. One wrong step and the author can bring down SJW Hell upon you. It could impact your reputation, your work opportunities in the hobby, or even your income directly if you were using streaming/social media for income.

Doesn't even need to come from the author. There's plenty of people willing to be offended on his behalf.

Someone is starting a Coyote&Crow PbP game on RPGX. It hasn't gotten out of the application phase, but I'd be interested in reading along to see how well the players adhere to Kimosabe Conner's rules. A couple of the applicants were really fawning over the setting, I could almost hear the high-pitched squeals.

Quote from: Continental on August 19, 2022, 04:43:40 PMAnd you can't culturally-appropriate a completely made-up native tribe, right?

Watch someone accuse them of exactly that.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on August 18, 2022, 09:46:35 PM
I just found out that they are making an RPG for the Mythic Americas miniature game. Soon Coyote and Crow will be the second most successful Native American RPG released in 2022 (although it will win all the awards).

BTW - Here is their booth at GenCon. Plenty of product there.

Damn, those are some awesome minis.

Quote from: Effete on August 18, 2022, 01:54:24 PM

I'm almost compelled to run this game as an Evil campaign, where the high-tech natives americans take their hover-boats to Eurasia and brutally subjugate the "savages" that survived the meteor impacts while setting up little outposts of their own. Too on the nose?

Sure.  Just call them Numenorians.

Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast on August 21, 2022, 08:10:54 AM

Quote from: Effete on August 18, 2022, 01:54:24 PM

I'm almost compelled to run this game as an Evil campaign, where the high-tech natives americans take their hover-boats to Eurasia and brutally subjugate the "savages" that survived the meteor impacts while setting up little outposts of their own. Too on the nose?

Sure.  Just call them Numenorians.

"He's outta line... but he ain't wrong."

Quote from: Continental on August 19, 2022, 04:43:40 PM
Funnily enough someone asked if they could add vikings to the story on his forum, and was told no because 'it's not their story'. Why does he need permission? If you have the book, how is he going to stop you doing whatever you want with it?

An excellent idea for another C&C supplement: 'Vikings : the Vanquishing'

Quote from: jhkim on August 19, 2022, 04:34:03 PM
This is like asking if the Cyberpunk RPG would work to run a Revolutionary War game

Give me Mr. Studd, or give me death!

As a one-off or something just for shits and giggles, I'm not hating the idea.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on August 18, 2022, 09:46:35 PM
I just found out that they are making an RPG for the Mythic Americas miniature game. Soon Coyote and Crow will be the second most successful Native American RPG released in 2022 (although it will win all the awards).

Cool. From brief search, I saw a bunch about the Mythic Americas miniatures game, but I didn't see anything about the upcoming RPG. Any pointers on that? I was interested by the introduction from the creator on the website.

QuoteMythic Americas is really a 12-year old's dream, somehow come to life 40 years later. It was when I was 12, and had migrated with my family to New Jersey from Venezuela in 1978, that I realized how much I missed the stories my grandmother used to tell me about saints, ghosts, miracles, terrifying banshees like La Lorrona, blessed-beings like Maria Lionza, and magic users and spells; specially curses, which she was always guarding against, or the blessings she got placed on her, her friends, house, and family, by a local "brujo" I don't remember ever meeting. It was here in the US that I realized I had fallen in love with the mythologies, and mysteries of my native lands, especially all of those stories about magic my grandmother told me about. My grandma was of indigenous descent (I later found out about 40% of that heritage runs through my veins!)

In all of the years since, I have surrounded myself in whichever way I could, with as much of the lore, mythology and histories of my native lands. It is this personal history which has been the driving force behind Mythic Americas.

https://www.mythicamericas.com/a-word-from-the-mythic-americas-creator

Quote from: Thornhammer on August 21, 2022, 07:12:39 PM

Quote from: jhkim on August 19, 2022, 04:34:03 PM
This is like asking if the Cyberpunk RPG would work to run a Revolutionary War game

Give me Mr. Studd, or give me death!

As a one-off or something just for shits and giggles, I'm not hating the idea.

Well, with Cyberpunk, a second Revolutionary War isn't out of the question.

I assume the company are fine with white people playing the Mythic America minis game? (or the RPG)

Or do they have disclaimers too?