Just saw about a dozen copies of Coyote & Crow on the shelf of a book/game store in Stockholm. I asked how it was selling and the guy said "we had 20 to start." I don't think the Swedes are big on white guilt, but somehow it's selling here.

Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 15, 2022, 11:43:16 AM
I read the posts by the founder about how playing a Native character is not cultural appropriation in the context of the game.  I'm CONFIDENT that nobody that posts regularly on these boards believes that playing a Native character is Coyote and Crow qualifies as unacceptable cultural appropriation - I doubt most people here even think that's POSSIBLE.  So when the founder says playing this game doesn't count as cultural appropriation, I agree.  Does anyone here really disagree?  Really? 

What people who post here regularly believe is irrelevant. The people who designed this game and the people that it's primarily marketed to believe in CuLtUrAl ApPrOpRiAtIoN. That those of us who will never play it have zero issue playing Native Americans or people from other cultures doesn't matter. What matters is that the people this game is marketed to have been indoctrinated into believing there's something wrong with playing characters from other cultures, or that touching upon certain cultural artifacts (such as certain symbols or terminology) requires special permissions or ritualistic procedures, which is why the creator is in their current predicament.

That those of us who post here regularly know better is irrelevant. This game wasn't marketed at us. If anything we were told not to play it. Maybe if they didn't devote so much effort to chastising people for even eating food from other cultures (multiple small businesses have been forced to shut down after woke mobs accused them of "stealing" from other cultures) they wouldn't have so much trouble getting evil huwhite men to play their game.

I just think that this doesn't fit into the 'get woke, go broke' narrative that's so popular around here.  First off, a company that makes a product is going to promote the product.  Asking people to buy their product is normal.  Specifically reassuring people that were afraid that buying/using this product might be deemed as cultural appropriation that it isn't seems like a good way of 'addressing objections'.  If you're in sales you should be familiar with that.  And whether that's another 10 sales or 100 sales or 10,000 sales doesn't really matter - promoting your product and overcoming objectives is still something that businesses ought to do. 

So, wanting more sales isn't an indication of 'failing'.  Even businesses that are successful (including Apple, the largest company in the world by market cap) promotes products and addresses objections. 

Trying to appeal to a wider demographic isn't a sign of 'failing', either.  Lots of companies change their target market, or make efforts to target a specific market segment that they don't think they're reaching. 

From where I'm sitting, this looks like an extraordinary success for a new company launching a new product in a niche industry without an established IP (like Avatar, or Robotech). 

Maybe it would help if someone would bracket this with a product that is 'just a little more successful' and a product that is 'just a little less successful' so we can place it on that spectrum. 

In any case, if the people that are most likely to buy this game are afraid of cultural appropriation, reassuring them is what any reasonable company would take steps to do.  Right? 

Greetings!

You know, people need to really jackhammer these people that blubber on and screech about "Cultural Appropriation". Just absolutely mock them, and crush them.

People that embrace such an ideology of "Cultural Appropriation" are sad, pathetic, morons. Most likely scheming, greedy, manipulative demagogues and grifting charlatans, as well. The entire ideological concept is culturally, mentally, and socially incoherent. Such a pernicious ideology is also a vehicle in which these racist demagogues and charlatans seek to create and sow racial division and strife, all cloaked in the language and emotionalism of being a constant oppressed victim. All of that is then wrapped up, of course, typically with more calls and demands that reward one group politically, socially, and financially--at the expense of other groups.

People and cultures throughout the world routinely and historically share virtually all aspects of their culture with others. Exchanging, promoting, and otherwise embracing music, clothing, food, tools, styles, intellectual concepts, business concepts, items and goods of every kind and aspect. Which are then mangled, celebrated, modified, and used, both by themselves, and everyone else.

"Cultural Appropriation" demagogues should be entirely rejected as the racist scum and evil grifters and charlatans that they are.

This is yet another reason to mock and reject Coyote & Crow, and its author.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: HappyDaze on August 16, 2022, 11:41:07 AM
Just saw about a dozen copies of Coyote & Crow on the shelf of a book/game store in Stockholm. I asked how it was selling and the guy said "we had 20 to start." I don't think the Swedes are big on white guilt, but somehow it's selling here.

Followup question to ask is "When did you get your shipment in?" If it's been a year and it's only sold 10 that's a horrible ROI

Mork Borg and Mothership both had much much smaller starts. You cannot scroll past five items currently on KS and not find a product designed to be used with one of those systems. Their business models work.

Morg Borg dipped into the death metal/horror/strange with the body horror of LotFP dialed down. They found a market and is probably the it product in the branch of the OSR that does not tie back to the classics.

Mothership gave away their rules system for free, for years, while kickstarting three very good supplements to build up a base. THEN they launched into a million dollar KS with their box set release.

And then there was C&C.

All three are red companies. I will not do business with any of them. But, unlike you leftest twats, I can call balls and strikes. C&C had a flawed model from the start. They way they attacked people, and now their fan base is a fail. Not being able to fulfill their pledges for book donations is a disgrace. On and on. These are not the behaviors of successful companies.

Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 16, 2022, 12:35:59 PM
I just think that this doesn't fit into the 'get woke, go broke' narrative that's so popular around here.  First off, a company that makes a product is going to promote the product.  Asking people to buy their product is normal.  Specifically reassuring people that were afraid that buying/using this product might be deemed as cultural appropriation that it isn't seems like a good way of 'addressing objections'.  If you're in sales you should be familiar with that.  And whether that's another 10 sales or 100 sales or 10,000 sales doesn't really matter - promoting your product and overcoming objectives is still something that businesses ought to do. 

So, wanting more sales isn't an indication of 'failing'.  Even businesses that are successful (including Apple, the largest company in the world by market cap) promotes products and addresses objections. 

Trying to appeal to a wider demographic isn't a sign of 'failing', either.  Lots of companies change their target market, or make efforts to target a specific market segment that they don't think they're reaching. 

From where I'm sitting, this looks like an extraordinary success for a new company launching a new product in a niche industry without an established IP (like Avatar, or Robotech). 

Maybe it would help if someone would bracket this with a product that is 'just a little more successful' and a product that is 'just a little less successful' so we can place it on that spectrum. 

In any case, if the people that are most likely to buy this game are afraid of cultural appropriation, reassuring them is what any reasonable company would take steps to do.  Right?

Except that the people involved didn't really learn nor are trying to correct anything, but are rather gaslighting the victims of their ideological mindfuck by trying to convince them that they're in wrong for being such racist nitwits that they aren't playing their game, after being consistently told they'd be racist if they did play it (or at least, if they played characters from other ethnicities, as playing this game would require them to do). So it's really damned if you do, damned if you don't, without really acknowledging that's what's actually going on. And condescendingly treating them like morons to boot.

This guy (the creator of this game) is truly deserving of going broke (and much more) after scraping 1mil from this Kickstarter, then apparently squandering all that money, and now treating his costumers like shit for not doing enough. The level of entitled condescension is off the charts. He obviously got lucky pulling 1mil first time around, and now the guy lacks the tact to weasel whatever he needs to finish fulfillment and get people to actually play his game. He's not being a salesman, he's mad people aren't giving him what he feels entitled to and chastising them for not being good enough "allies".

Quote from: THE_Leopold on August 16, 2022, 01:36:30 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on August 16, 2022, 11:41:07 AM
Just saw about a dozen copies of Coyote & Crow on the shelf of a book/game store in Stockholm. I asked how it was selling and the guy said "we had 20 to start." I don't think the Swedes are big on white guilt, but somehow it's selling here.

Followup question to ask is "When did you get your shipment in?" If it's been a year and it's only sold 10 that's a horrible ROI

I didnt ask, but it was on their new releases rack alongside other titles that have been out for about a month or so (e.g., Horned Rat book for WFRP 4e & compqnion for same, the wilderness book for L5R 5e)..

Quote from: VisionStorm on August 16, 2022, 01:56:37 PM
Except that the people involved didn't really learn nor are trying to correct anything, but are rather gaslighting the victims of their ideological mindfuck by trying to convince them that they're in wrong for being such racist nitwits that they aren't playing their game, after being consistently told they'd be racist if they did play it (or at least, if they played characters from other ethnicities, as playing this game would require them to do). So it's really damned if you do, damned if you don't, without really acknowledging that's what's actually going on. And condescendingly treating them like morons to boot.

This guy (the creator of this game) is truly deserving of going broke (and much more) after scraping 1mil from this Kickstarter, then apparently squandering all that money, and now treating his costumers like shit for not doing enough. The level of entitled condescension is off the charts. He obviously got lucky pulling 1mil first time around, and now the guy lacks the tact to weasel whatever he needs to finish fulfillment and get people to actually play his game. He's not being a salesman, he's mad people aren't giving him what he feels entitled to and chastising them for not being good enough "allies".

I don't know how you read that tone, that's not what I get at all.  While I'm not Native American, I am aware of negative stereotypes that have been perpetuated in popular media.  I can see how pretending that saying 'HOW' is a universal greeting is offensive to many Native Americans - and I've heard them tell me that directly.  Directly imitating an ethnic group, especially in a form of caricature, is often offensive.  For examples of this type of thing, see Breakfast at Tiffany's and the portrayal of the Japanese neighbor. 

Telling people how to respectfully incorporate other cultures into a game without parodying or creating a caricature is helpful advice.  Some people won't care, but for those that do, there's nothing wrong with providing it. 

As for the
Most Recent Update - it looks like the donations are going to go out, but possibly not in as timely a fashion as the founder hoped.  For 'free books', I don't think there was any expectation that they MUST be delivered by a particular time.  He has 5000 books to donate, and he needs to find organizations that want the books.  I think he'll be successful, it'll just take some time. 

Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 16, 2022, 12:35:59 PM
I just think that this doesn't fit into the 'get woke, go broke' narrative that's so popular around here.  First off, a company that makes a product is going to promote the product.  Asking people to buy their product is normal.  Specifically reassuring people that were afraid that buying/using this product might be deemed as cultural appropriation that it isn't seems like a good way of 'addressing objections'.  If you're in sales you should be familiar with that.  And whether that's another 10 sales or 100 sales or 10,000 sales doesn't really matter - promoting your product and overcoming objectives is still something that businesses ought to do. 
...
In any case, if the people that are most likely to buy this game are afraid of cultural appropriation, reassuring them is what any reasonable company would take steps to do.  Right?

Correct. But the issue here is that Coyote & Crow wants it both ways.

Forget for a moment that the woke ideology in general dissuades people from playing anything outside their genetic wheelhouse. This Connor guy writes a fairly condescending blog post criticising white people for not buying his game (he doesn't even care if they like it or play it; he just wants them to buy it and stick it on the shelf). All the while, the book itself has pages of "rules" for how white gamers aren't allowed to use indigenous terms or change/insert the cultures presented in the book. But gamers with magic blood are perfectedly allowed to do so.

So basically, white people can play the game, but only within a strict set of guidelines. That's kinda like saying: you can drink water, just from a different fountain.

As for the success of the company, all indications point to it hemorrhaging money. I don't think that has as much to do with wokeness as it does with incompetence.

Quote from: Effete on August 16, 2022, 02:46:33 PM
But the issue here is that Coyote & Crow wants it both ways.

Forget for a moment that the woke ideology in general dissuades people from playing anything outside their genetic wheelhouse. This Connor guy writes a fairly condescending blog post criticising white people for not buying his game (he doesn't even care if they like it or play it; he just wants them to buy it and stick it on the shelf). All the while, the book itself has pages of "rules" for how white gamers aren't allowed to use indigenous terms or change/insert the cultures presented in the book. But gamers with magic blood are perfectedly allowed to do so.

So basically, white people can play the game, but only within a strict set of guidelines. That's kinda like saying: you can drink water, just from a different fountain.

I feel like his point flew over your head.  Keeping in mind that anyone can ignore rules they don't like at any time, he can't make you observe those 'rules'.  But there's still good reason to have them.  His rules basically come down to 'how not to be an insensitive jerk'.  Maybe you've been studying the Cherokee language and you're well-versed in the culture and you can respectfully incorporate elements of that culture into your character - but whether your portrayal is accurate and respectful comes down to a matter of opinion, and members of that culture really get the final say.  It's okay if you don't understand why blackface is offensive, but it's not okay to dress in blackface.  Using an imaginary culture and imaginary language removes some of the onus of potentially representing a real culture very negatively.  His advice didn't tell Cherokee to pretend to be Crow, or for Comanche to pretend to be Deleware - but if you want to represent part of your cultural heritage in your character, you're encouraged to do so.  That advice works for white players, too.  Incorporating someone else's culture can be insensitive/demeaning, but if you want to incorporate part of YOUR culture, you absolutely can. 

To the degree that your cultural heritage is one fountain and someone else's cultural heritage is another fountain, sure, you're drawing on different resources to enrich the game. 

Quote from: Effete on August 16, 2022, 02:46:33 PM
As for the success of the company, all indications point to it hemorrhaging money. I don't think that has as much to do with wokeness as it does with incompetence.

I think that any business is likely to have 'growing pains'.  There are things that you expect, they're part of your business plan, and everything goes the way you thought it would - those things are great.  But there are also the things that you didn't expect, or they didn't go the way you thought, and now you have a problem that requires changes to the way your business functions.  Sometimes businesses don't grow and adapt to handle new challenges, but sometimes they do.  Saying that things can be hard doesn't mean that people are incompetent. 

Connor appears to have 5,000 books that are paid for but haven't been allocated to any specific individual or organization, yet.  Finding organizations that are interested in those books and getting the delivered is a bigger challenge than doing so for 50.  But because these books aren't allocated, nobody is negatively impacted by these challenges.  If you're someone that paid for a free book for someone, I suppose there's a chance that you'll be upset that it wasn't delivered 4 months ago.  But as someone who has donated gaming product to soldiers overseas, I personally think they'd want their donation to go to someone that will benefit from it.  And that takes time with this type of quantity. 

I haven't heard of anyone that ordered product not getting it.  I haven't heard of any artists or creators not getting paid.  I haven't seen any issues with production quality or failure to meet obligations. 

I'm not big into sci-fi games generally.  But I am interested in supporting artists that I like.  Making Coyote & Crow a success supports (primarily Native American) artists involved in the creation.  That's not going to be a motivation for everyone to buy the game; in fact you could commission art directly from the same artists and support those you like best.  But even if the product is not one that you are going to use for yourself or your friend group, supporting the art is sometimes worthwhile.  I like Kenzer & Co, so I bought Aces & Eights and I've never played it (outside of a convention quick start that didn't even use the books).  Buying product from a company that you like is something most of us do at one time or another and easily justify it.  Buying $2,000 a year of Reaper Minis I'm not going to get around to painting is probably foolish, but I can afford it and it's nice to know that the company will still be around when I hopefully do have the time to paint it.  If Coyote & Crow is making a nice product and you believe in the company, buying their product now (even if it sits on your shelf for some time) isn't really crazy - it's an investment that may not pay off, but you might also be helping to launch the next TSR or Chaosium. 

Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 16, 2022, 02:34:34 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on August 16, 2022, 01:56:37 PM
Except that the people involved didn't really learn nor are trying to correct anything, but are rather gaslighting the victims of their ideological mindfuck by trying to convince them that they're in wrong for being such racist nitwits that they aren't playing their game, after being consistently told they'd be racist if they did play it (or at least, if they played characters from other ethnicities, as playing this game would require them to do). So it's really damned if you do, damned if you don't, without really acknowledging that's what's actually going on. And condescendingly treating them like morons to boot.

This guy (the creator of this game) is truly deserving of going broke (and much more) after scraping 1mil from this Kickstarter, then apparently squandering all that money, and now treating his costumers like shit for not doing enough. The level of entitled condescension is off the charts. He obviously got lucky pulling 1mil first time around, and now the guy lacks the tact to weasel whatever he needs to finish fulfillment and get people to actually play his game. He's not being a salesman, he's mad people aren't giving him what he feels entitled to and chastising them for not being good enough "allies".

I don't know how you read that tone, that's not what I get at all.  While I'm not Native American, I am aware of negative stereotypes that have been perpetuated in popular media.  I can see how pretending that saying 'HOW' is a universal greeting is offensive to many Native Americans - and I've heard them tell me that directly.  Directly imitating an ethnic group, especially in a form of caricature, is often offensive.  For examples of this type of thing, see Breakfast at Tiffany's and the portrayal of the Japanese neighbor. 

Telling people how to respectfully incorporate other cultures into a game without parodying or creating a caricature is helpful advice.  Some people won't care, but for those that do, there's nothing wrong with providing it. 

As for the
Most Recent Update - it looks like the donations are going to go out, but possibly not in as timely a fashion as the founder hoped.  For 'free books', I don't think there was any expectation that they MUST be delivered by a particular time.  He has 5000 books to donate, and he needs to find organizations that want the books.  I think he'll be successful, it'll just take some time.

"If someone tells me that I've hurt their feelings, I say, 'I'm still waiting to hear what your point is.'

In this country, I've been told, 'That's offensive' as if those two words constitute an argument or a comment. Not to me they don't.

And I'm not running for anything, so I don't have to pretend to like people when I don't."

― Christopher Hitchens

Who cares if someone MIGHT find it offensive how someone else plays a "native american" at their table?

Do those same people care if a white person finds it offensive how they portray rednecks?

The answer to those is : No one should care and no, they don't. Fuck their fee fees.

@GeekyBugle

If you live your life without caring about other people's feelings, that's a choice you're free to make.  Likewise, when people insult your mother you're free to choose not to take offense.  But certainly you can agree that some statements are meant to insult and generate offense?  Like when the Klingon told Scotty "I didn't mean to say that the Enterprise should be hauling garbage. I meant to say that it should be hauled away AS garbage!" it was intended to provoke a fight. 

Some people create racist caricatures in the same manner.  You don't have to get offended - you don't even have to care.  But actions have consequences and some people will choose not to hang out with you if you persist in behaviors that are designed to provoke - they're INTENDED to be offensive. 

You can learn a lot from roleplaying games.  One of the ways you do that is by imagining yourself in a different situation, with different abilities and a different perspective.  Some people have an interest in learning that in a way that is respectful and NOT intended to be offensive.  There's room for a game like Coyote and Crow.  Nobody says you HAVE to play it.  But trying to AVOID causing undue offense is certainly not problematic. 

It's just a really strange vibe that people here are pretending to be offended because [something something racial something identity politics] when people here don't believe in that. 

I'm not vegetarian, but I know some people are.  It's strange to me that people get offended when Cracker Barrel adds 'impossible sausage' to the menu.  I wasn't planning on ordering it, but having it on the menu makes it that much easier to bring my vegetarian friends there.   

Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 16, 2022, 04:51:47 PM
@GeekyBugle

If you live your life without caring about other people's feelings, that's a choice you're free to make.  Likewise, when people insult your mother you're free to choose not to take offense.  But certainly you can agree that some statements are meant to insult and generate offense?  Like when the Klingon told Scotty "I didn't mean to say that the Enterprise should be hauling garbage. I meant to say that it should be hauled away AS garbage!" it was intended to provoke a fight. 

Some people create racist caricatures in the same manner.  You don't have to get offended - you don't even have to care.  But actions have consequences and some people will choose not to hang out with you if you persist in behaviors that are designed to provoke - they're INTENDED to be offensive. 

You can learn a lot from roleplaying games.  One of the ways you do that is by imagining yourself in a different situation, with different abilities and a different perspective.  Some people have an interest in learning that in a way that is respectful and NOT intended to be offensive.  There's room for a game like Coyote and Crow.  Nobody says you HAVE to play it.  But trying to AVOID causing undue offense is certainly not problematic. 

It's just a really strange vibe that people here are pretending to be offended because [something something racial something identity politics] when people here don't believe in that. 

I'm not vegetarian, but I know some people are.  It's strange to me that people get offended when Cracker Barrel adds 'impossible sausage' to the menu.  I wasn't planning on ordering it, but having it on the menu makes it that much easier to bring my vegetarian friends there.

Coyote and Crow availed itself of the identity politics talking points in it's writing and advertisement. (See the original thread)
The creator is trying to walk some of that back, now that it's bitten him in the ass.

That's where my concern for other people's feelings ends. When someone tries to weaponize it.

Greetings!

If I am playing a rainbow striped Hippo humanoid, wearing a bright purple and furred dress, a deer-antler helmet, and carrying a staff with a giant cow's tongue wiggling at the staff's tip, who would I be offending?

On another note, who the hell are you people playing with where you are surrounded by all of these super-duper sensitive and special people that are going to be or are offended at seemingly everything? If somehow, you were to run into crybaby freaks like this, why on earth would you even *dream* of wanting to let them join your gaming table? WHY?

Next, and more pointedly, who the hell are all of these vicious, evil people playing "Racist Caricatures"? Just like the sobbing, crybaby rainbow hippo people, why would you want to invite these people to your game table? Beyond that, I am quite suspicious of just such a claim. I have been gaming for many years now, and I can't say I have ever run into these mythical people. Everyone gaming at my table has created and ran theme-appropriate characters for the setting, regardless of where in the game world I have set the campaign in. Even when I have run games at Game Conventions--again, every gamer has run appropriate characters. I have never encountered "Racist Caricatures" of any kind.

Furthermore, beyond *that*--none of my friends through the years have ever gamed with people running "Racist Caricatures" either, so it isn't just limited to me because I'm some kind of harsh and dominant bastard.

I think it is strange that it is only the SJW "Woke" snowflakes that proclaim their benighted experience at encountering people like this.

In a similar vein, I have gamed with *many* uber-masculine Marines, Rangers, and other military veterans, supposedly the epicenter of all of the terrible "Toxic Masculinity"--and yet, all of the wives, girlfriends, and other women often involved, never, even *once*--had a problem with any of the men players. And yet, throughout the "Gaming Community"--who always seem to be involved with sexual assault, rape, or just being "Creepy" towards women? The vast majority of the time, it isn't "Toxic Masculine men"--but good, sweet, pink-shirt-wearing "Male Feminists". This angle is slightly different, but I see it as correlating with the whole "Toxic racists everywhere!" proclamation--again, the vast majority of the time, this also is promoted and shrieked about by SJW's and Woke rainbow hippos.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK