I understand that $1 million is not a lot in a business context, but I also understand that getting +$1million or losing $1million is a big enough sum of money to have repercussions, even for a business generating billions.  Coyote and Crow is a small publisher.  Generating $1 million is a huge amount of money for most small publishers, especially for their first product. 

I read the posts by the founder about how playing a Native character is not cultural appropriation in the context of the game.  I'm CONFIDENT that nobody that posts regularly on these boards believes that playing a Native character is Coyote and Crow qualifies as unacceptable cultural appropriation - I doubt most people here even think that's POSSIBLE.  So when the founder says playing this game doesn't count as cultural appropriation, I agree.  Does anyone here really disagree?  Really? 

I don't know if Connor Alexander 100% committed to leaving all other work and surviving on his RGP writing credits, but even if he did and he can't survive EXCLUSIVELY on that, I wouldn't consider this a failure.  He's produced a book; there are at least 16,000 people that had a chance to experience his creative work.  There are more than that discussing the product and having conversations about the play space and products.  Generally, I'm in favor of more product availability - while I don't expect every product to appeal to every consumer, more choices mean that there is more for each individual consumer, including the possibility of someone's new favorite game. 

In that context, there's nothing wrong with Coyote and Crow.  Going bankrupt isn't always the end (if that's even happening).  It happened for TSR, too.  It's hard to think of D&D as anything other than a 'success'. 

Does someone want to help me understand what game(s) you're comparing it to that count as a success? 

Connor Alexander created a product that represents his passions.  He was able to create the project on his terms with the creative content producers he wanted to work with.  The product was created, it has been delivered into the hands of the people that asked for it.  His company (even if short of funds, and that's a big if) still exists and can still try to create additional product. 

Maybe my standards of success are too low, but that all sounds like something I could be proud of. 

Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 15, 2022, 11:43:16 AM
I understand that $1 million is not a lot in a business context, but I also understand that getting +$1million or losing $1million is a big enough sum of money to have repercussions, even for a business generating billions.  Coyote and Crow is a small publisher.  Generating $1 million is a huge amount of money for most small publishers, especially for their first product. 

Quite a few KS have made that much or more. Its not as big a deal as you are trying to make it out to be. Even half that can be hit with a little thought.

And more than a few of these big bucks KS also fail to ship. Some are flat out scams. Others were grossly incompetent. And a rare few were just tripped up by an unforeseen extra cost.

As for "not appropriation" that hilarious you are defending it when these same sorts will turn right around and attack someone else for doing the same thing. Only respectfully instead of this hateful trash.

But sure. Run with those goal posts.

Quote from: jhkim on August 14, 2022, 12:05:55 AMI'm not very well read on developments from Maya to Aztec, but I'm more familiar with developments in Northern America as well as Andean civilization.

The key thing to realize about the Mayan and Aztec is that the Mayans suffered an economic collapse from around 700 to 900 AD where much of their culture (and knowledge of writing) was lost. The Aztec didn't show up until hundreds of years later so they were less advanced. So when the Spaniards arrived, they weren't dealing with the A-Team and so many of the local people hated the Aztecs that the Spaniards quickly found many allies.

There are a few recorded instances of Spaniards discovering intact, fully functioning Mayan cities. But these weren't the massive multi-city empires that existed before.

Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 15, 2022, 11:43:16 AMI read the posts by the founder about how playing a Native character is not cultural appropriation in the context of the game.  I'm CONFIDENT that nobody that posts regularly on these boards believes that playing a Native character is Coyote and Crow qualifies as unacceptable cultural appropriation - I doubt most people here even think that's POSSIBLE.  So when the founder says playing this game doesn't count as cultural appropriation, I agree.  Does anyone here really disagree?  Really? 

Didn't a YouTuber have to apologize just last year for role-playing a pre-generated Asian character in a live stream?

And this wasn't a one-time things. Here's an article from February of this year condemning Critical Role for setting a campaign in north Africa
https://www.kotaku.com.au/2022/02/the-problem-with-critical-roles-latest-campaign/

Just because the people here don't think that it is cultural appropriation for white people to play non-white characters doesn't mean that no one thinks this. Funny how the rules have suddenly changed now that a woke RPG is losing money.

Quote from: Omega on August 15, 2022, 12:01:30 PM

Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 15, 2022, 11:43:16 AM
I understand that $1 million is not a lot in a business context, but I also understand that getting +$1million or losing $1million is a big enough sum of money to have repercussions, even for a business generating billions.  Coyote and Crow is a small publisher.  Generating $1 million is a huge amount of money for most small publishers, especially for their first product. 

Quite a few KS have made that much or more. Its not as big a deal as you are trying to make it out to be. Even half that can be hit with a little thought.

In point of fact, only 220 Tabletop Games have generated more than $1 million on Kickstarter.  This includes things like the Reaper Bones miniature kickstarters.  I think, charitably, you could say that there are 5 RPGs that generated more than $1 million, including Coyote & Crow.  Since it is such a small number, I think I'll list the ones that I think qualify so you can let me know if I missed any, or whether you don't think these are relevant:

Avatar Legends: The Roleplaying Game ($9.5 Million)
Old Gods of Appalachia Roleplaying Game ($2 Million) - Monte Cook
Blade Runner the RPG (~$1.5 Million - it's in Krona)
The One Ring RPG (~$1.5 Million - it's in Krona)

So while $1 million is a relatively arbitrary number, it's clear that raising more than $1 million is not an easily accomplished feat.  I think Coyote & Crow should be justifiably proud of having hit this milestone. 

Quote from: Omega on August 15, 2022, 12:01:30 PM
And more than a few of these big bucks KS also fail to ship. Some are flat out scams. Others were grossly incompetent. And a rare few were just tripped up by an unforeseen extra cost.

Right, so raising $1 million and shipping product is a success compared to a lot of others that didn't deliver. 

Quote from: Omega on August 15, 2022, 12:01:30 PM
As for "not appropriation" that hilarious you are defending it when these same sorts will turn right around and attack someone else for doing the same thing. Only respectfully instead of this hateful trash.

So you agree that playing this game doesn't qualify as cultural appropriation?  I'm not worried about people calling me mean names on the interwebs.  Are you? 

The premise of ... In the 1200s a Great Black Death wipes out all of Europe and England happens instead of just one third of the population is an interesting premise...

The evolution of the world would have been both drastically different yet maybe not so different as we would think. Just because "white" people are wiped out doesn't mean the rest of the world would sing kumbaya and got along. There would still be wats between cultures of differing belief systems, especially between the Muslim, African and Asian peoples. If Genghis Khan is still around than he would have spread his empire as far as possible. The South American people might have been the ones to spread northward up to North America. And the thousands of years of infighting between the many hundreds of native Americans tribal nations wouldn't have stopped fighting.

Most likely a different expansionist culture would have invaded North America. They wouldn't have been white, but they would have still expanded and settled. Colonialism has never been just a white people thing. It's been happening for thousands of years.

The designers of Coyote & Crow are just that ignorant of history and their own people and the possible repercussions of what would happen in an alternate history of a wiped out 12th century Europe. Guarantee some group of people would have expanded into Europe in time. More wars would have been fought.

I predict in this alternate world either the Aztecs or a Khan ruled China would have invaded North America for it's resources. But that's just one possibility.

Quote from: RebelSky on August 15, 2022, 01:27:20 PM
The premise of ... In the 1200s a Great Black Death wipes out all of Europe and England happens instead of just one third of the population is an interesting premise...

The evolution of the world would have been both drastically different yet maybe not so different as we would think. Just because "white" people are wiped out doesn't mean the rest of the world would sing kumbaya and got along. There would still be wats between cultures of differing belief systems, especially between the Muslim, African and Asian peoples. If Genghis Khan is still around than he would have spread his empire as far as possible. The South American people might have been the ones to spread northward up to North America. And the thousands of years of infighting between the many hundreds of native Americans tribal nations wouldn't have stopped fighting.

Most likely a different expansionist culture would have invaded North America. They wouldn't have been white, but they would have still expanded and settled. Colonialism has never been just a white people thing. It's been happening for thousands of years.

The designers of Coyote & Crow are just that ignorant of history and their own people and the possible repercussions of what would happen in an alternate history of a wiped out 12th century Europe. Guarantee some group of people would have expanded into Europe in time. More wars would have been fought.

I predict in this alternate world either the Aztecs or a Khan ruled China would have invaded North America for it's resources. But that's just one possibility.

Yes, this, exactly. Sigh. The premise of the game just shows a complete lack of historical understanding. The game is, and always will be, racist.

Quote from: RebelSky on August 15, 2022, 01:27:20 PM
The premise of ... In the 1200s a Great Black Death wipes out all of Europe and England happens instead of just one third of the population is an interesting premise...

The evolution of the world would have been both drastically different yet maybe not so different as we would think. Just because "white" people are wiped out doesn't mean the rest of the world would sing kumbaya and got along. There would still be wats between cultures of differing belief systems, especially between the Muslim, African and Asian peoples. If Genghis Khan is still around than he would have spread his empire as far as possible. The South American people might have been the ones to spread northward up to North America. And the thousands of years of infighting between the many hundreds of native Americans tribal nations wouldn't have stopped fighting.

Most likely a different expansionist culture would have invaded North America. They wouldn't have been white, but they would have still expanded and settled. Colonialism has never been just a white people thing. It's been happening for thousands of years.

The designers of Coyote & Crow are just that ignorant of history and their own people and the possible repercussions of what would happen in an alternate history of a wiped out 12th century Europe. Guarantee some group of people would have expanded into Europe in time. More wars would have been fought.

I predict in this alternate world either the Aztecs or a Khan ruled China would have invaded North America for it's resources. But that's just one possibility.

You're almsot 100% spot on. where you miss something is where you blame it all in ignorance (don't get me wrong they ARE ignorant) but their conclusion that no huwhites means world peace and all people's singing cumbaya is due to racism.

They hate white people.

As for the more likely to replace the Europeans in conquering the Americas my money is on the Muslims, they were seafaring people, unlike the Mongols that when they tried (twice) got their fleet wrecked by storms and never tried again.

They also had better maths than the more oriental people or than those of Africa. Important to calculate courses and to postulate earth wasn't flat. Plus they were traders unlike the Chinese who were more insular due to their constant wars with the Mongols, plus the distance.

Maybe the people from present Russia if they colonized their lands closest to the continent, since you CAN see Alaska from parts of Russia.

Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 15, 2022, 11:43:16 AM
I understand that $1 million is not a lot in a business context, but I also understand that getting +$1million or losing $1million is a big enough sum of money to have repercussions, even for a business generating billions.  Coyote and Crow is a small publisher.  Generating $1 million is a huge amount of money for most small publishers, especially for their first product. 

I read the posts by the founder about how playing a Native character is not cultural appropriation in the context of the game.  I'm CONFIDENT that nobody that posts regularly on these boards believes that playing a Native character is Coyote and Crow qualifies as unacceptable cultural appropriation - I doubt most people here even think that's POSSIBLE.  So when the founder says playing this game doesn't count as cultural appropriation, I agree.  Does anyone here really disagree?  Really? 

I don't know if Connor Alexander 100% committed to leaving all other work and surviving on his RGP writing credits, but even if he did and he can't survive EXCLUSIVELY on that, I wouldn't consider this a failure.  He's produced a book; there are at least 16,000 people that had a chance to experience his creative work.  There are more than that discussing the product and having conversations about the play space and products.  Generally, I'm in favor of more product availability - while I don't expect every product to appeal to every consumer, more choices mean that there is more for each individual consumer, including the possibility of someone's new favorite game. 

In that context, there's nothing wrong with Coyote and Crow.  Going bankrupt isn't always the end (if that's even happening).  It happened for TSR, too.  It's hard to think of D&D as anything other than a 'success'. 

Does someone want to help me understand what game(s) you're comparing it to that count as a success? 

Connor Alexander created a product that represents his passions.  He was able to create the project on his terms with the creative content producers he wanted to work with.  The product was created, it has been delivered into the hands of the people that asked for it.  His company (even if short of funds, and that's a big if) still exists and can still try to create additional product. 

Maybe my standards of success are too low, but that all sounds like something I could be proud of.

Sorry but I'm not a racist so about as interested in this as I am of MYFAROG (despite being a fan of early Burzum), i.e. not al all.

Quote from: RebelSky on August 15, 2022, 01:27:20 PM
... The South American people might have been the ones to spread northward up to North America. And the thousands of years of infighting between the many hundreds of native Americans tribal nations wouldn't have stopped fighting.

Correction: the South Americans would have spread northward down to North America.

The setting, for whatever reason, flips the map of North America so that north is down and south is up. Maybe this is to give the game map a more "exotic" look, but to me it is reminiscent of commie larpers with their upside down American flags breaking windows and burning cars. I don't know what the actual motivation for the map flip was, I'm just pointing out what it looks like.

Quote from: Effete on August 15, 2022, 02:18:19 PM

Quote from: RebelSky on August 15, 2022, 01:27:20 PM
... The South American people might have been the ones to spread northward up to North America. And the thousands of years of infighting between the many hundreds of native Americans tribal nations wouldn't have stopped fighting.

Correction: the South Americans would have spread northward down to North America.

The setting, for whatever reason, flips the map of North America so that north is down and south is up. Maybe this is to give the game map a more "exotic" look, but to me it is reminiscent of commie larpers with their upside down American flags breaking windows and burning cars. I don't know what the actual motivation for the map flip was, I'm just pointing out what it looks like.

I didn't pay attention to the map. My cursory glance through the book at my FLGS stopped me where the moral authority was telling us all about how we can't refer to ourselves using the native American terms that they are allowed to use, even though our characters would use that language.

Quote from: RebelSky on August 15, 2022, 03:04:30 PM
I didn't pay attention to the map. My cursory glance through the book at my FLGS stopped me where the moral authority was telling us all about how we can't refer to ourselves using the native American terms that they are allowed to use, even though our characters would use that language.

Someone's trying to get a Coyote & Crow PbP game started over on RPGX. I'd be interested to see if it:
a) even gets off the ground, and
b) lasts more than a month.
I'll probably read along just to see how the material is being handled.

Quote from: Effete on August 15, 2022, 02:18:19 PMThe setting, for whatever reason, flips the map of North America so that north is down and south is up. Maybe this is to give the game map a more "exotic" look, but to me it is reminiscent of commie larpers with their upside down American flags breaking windows and burning cars. I don't know what the actual motivation for the map flip was, I'm just pointing out what it looks like.

From wikipedia:

"Cultural diversity and media literacy educators use south-up oriented world maps to help students viscerally experience the frequently disorienting effect of seeing something familiar from a different perspective. Having students consider the privileged position given to the Northern hemisphere (especially Europe and North America) on most world maps can help students confront their more general potential for culturally biased perceptions."

The logic is that Europeans are rich because they live on the good, i.e. upper, portion of the map.

Quote from: RebelSky on August 15, 2022, 01:27:20 PM
The premise of ... In the 1200s a Great Black Death wipes out all of Europe and England happens instead of just one third of the population is an interesting premise...

RebelSky,

You might like The Years of Rice and Salt by Kim Robinson, since that is the exact premise of the (very long) novel. It starts after the Black Plague takes a more deadly turn and wipes out Europe, and ends with the discovery of the atom bomb. Robinson has a slightly different outcome from your scenario. The world is run by four major empires:

- The Chinese, who colonize Japan and the western coast of America,
- The Caliphate, who conquer all of Europe and colonize the east coast of America,
- The Haudenosaunee (Native Americans) who unite all of the tribes in America and don't get totally screwed over,
- The Indians, probably the best of the four, since they revere science and have a quasi-democracy.

At first I thought the book was going to be a Woke fantasy, until you realize that even without the Evil White Man, there is still racism, sexism, homophobia, colonizing, capitalism, fundamentalism, crime, poverty, pollution, police states... the world is pretty much as it is today, a mix of good and bad, success and failure. Humanity is still humanity.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on August 15, 2022, 08:21:52 PM

Quote from: Effete on August 15, 2022, 02:18:19 PMThe setting, for whatever reason, flips the map of North America so that north is down and south is up. Maybe this is to give the game map a more "exotic" look, but to me it is reminiscent of commie larpers with their upside down American flags breaking windows and burning cars. I don't know what the actual motivation for the map flip was, I'm just pointing out what it looks like.

From wikipedia:

"Cultural diversity and media literacy educators use south-up oriented world maps to help students viscerally experience the frequently disorienting effect of seeing something familiar from a different perspective. Having students consider the privileged position given to the Northern hemisphere (especially Europe and North America) on most world maps can help students confront their more general potential for culturally biased perceptions."

The logic is that Europeans are rich because they live on the good, i.e. upper, portion of the map.

Yep, which is magic thinking of the "ju ju of the mountain" kind.