You wanna give me the link? 

I've read the Kickstarter, I've read the blog post about being an ally/cultural appropriation, I've read Ness articles in a tribal paper, and a few other things.  I haven't seen anything that I could even begin to construe as an attempt to shame me for my European heritage.

Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 16, 2022, 03:27:07 PM
I feel like his point flew over your head.  Keeping in mind that anyone can ignore rules they don't like at any time, he can't make you observe those 'rules'.  But there's still good reason to have them.  His rules basically come down to 'how not to be an insensitive jerk'.

No, the point didn't fly over my head. I'm well aware I can ignore his dumb suggestions, and I'm not a small child that needs lessons in sensitivity. It's the fact that he even felt the need to mention it at all. It's pandering to one group and condescending to another. Drawing a line in the sand and assuming that white people can't be respectful without being told is... well, frankly it's insulting and offensive. Besides, the book doesn't just say "be respectful," it says "don't do it." I'm pretty sure if I injected some traditional Polish heritage onto one of the presented cultures, Connor would find a problem with it.

To be honest, the premise of the setting is interesting, but I'm still not going to buy it because the owner is a bit of a douchebag and probably a little racist. It's the same reason I wouldn't buy cookies from a KKK bake sale. I really don't care what other people do. I'm not rooting for the company to fail, but I wouldn't feel bad if they cave.

QuoteTo the degree that your cultural heritage is one fountain and someone else's cultural heritage is another fountain, sure, you're drawing on different resources to enrich the game.

Pretty sure my comment about drinking from separate fountains went over YOUR head.

Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 16, 2022, 04:51:47 PM
@GeekyBugle

If you live your life without caring about other people's feelings, that's a choice you're free to make.  Likewise, when people insult your mother you're free to choose not to take offense.  But certainly you can agree that some statements are meant to insult and generate offense?  Like when the Klingon told Scotty "I didn't mean to say that the Enterprise should be hauling garbage. I meant to say that it should be hauled away AS garbage!" it was intended to provoke a fight. 

Some people create racist caricatures in the same manner.  You don't have to get offended - you don't even have to care.  But actions have consequences and some people will choose not to hang out with you if you persist in behaviors that are designed to provoke - they're INTENDED to be offensive. 

You can learn a lot from roleplaying games.  One of the ways you do that is by imagining yourself in a different situation, with different abilities and a different perspective.  Some people have an interest in learning that in a way that is respectful and NOT intended to be offensive.  There's room for a game like Coyote and Crow.  Nobody says you HAVE to play it.  But trying to AVOID causing undue offense is certainly not problematic. 

It's just a really strange vibe that people here are pretending to be offended because [something something racial something identity politics] when people here don't believe in that. 

I'm not vegetarian, but I know some people are.  It's strange to me that people get offended when Cracker Barrel adds 'impossible sausage' to the menu.  I wasn't planning on ordering it, but having it on the menu makes it that much easier to bring my vegetarian friends there.

Trying not to offend the perpetually offended is a fools errand.

Offense is never given, it's only taken.

It's weird to me that people would care about the fee fees of people they don't know and that are intent on being offended no matter what.

If I choose to interpret a Red Neck in the most racist/offensive way, the perpetually offended wouldn't give a damn. So, they're disingenuous in their claims about caring or racist and they only care if the target isn't white.

As a mutt Maya/Spaniard IDGAFF about the fee fees of the Alt-Right nor the Ctrl-Left, fuck them both.

But do keep on telling me how the racist author's fee fees should matter to me.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 16, 2022, 09:22:08 PM

Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 16, 2022, 04:51:47 PM
@GeekyBugle

If you live your life without caring about other people's feelings, that's a choice you're free to make.  Likewise, when people insult your mother you're free to choose not to take offense.  But certainly you can agree that some statements are meant to insult and generate offense?  Like when the Klingon told Scotty "I didn't mean to say that the Enterprise should be hauling garbage. I meant to say that it should be hauled away AS garbage!" it was intended to provoke a fight. 

Some people create racist caricatures in the same manner.  You don't have to get offended - you don't even have to care.  But actions have consequences and some people will choose not to hang out with you if you persist in behaviors that are designed to provoke - they're INTENDED to be offensive. 

You can learn a lot from roleplaying games.  One of the ways you do that is by imagining yourself in a different situation, with different abilities and a different perspective.  Some people have an interest in learning that in a way that is respectful and NOT intended to be offensive.  There's room for a game like Coyote and Crow.  Nobody says you HAVE to play it.  But trying to AVOID causing undue offense is certainly not problematic. 

It's just a really strange vibe that people here are pretending to be offended because [something something racial something identity politics] when people here don't believe in that. 

I'm not vegetarian, but I know some people are.  It's strange to me that people get offended when Cracker Barrel adds 'impossible sausage' to the menu.  I wasn't planning on ordering it, but having it on the menu makes it that much easier to bring my vegetarian friends there.

Trying not to offend the perpetually offended is a fools errand.

Offense is never given, it's only taken.

It's weird to me that people would care about the fee fees of people they don't know and that are intent on being offended no matter what.

If I choose to interpret a Red Neck in the most racist/offensive way, the perpetually offended wouldn't give a damn. So, they're disingenuous in their claims about caring or racist and they only care if the target isn't white.

As a mutt Maya/Spaniard IDGAFF about the fee fees of the Alt-Right nor the Ctrl-Left, fuck them both.

But do keep on telling me how the racist author's fee fees should matter to me.

Greetings!

All that mixing of bloodlines is good! It gives us *STRENGTH*!!

"Trying not to offend the perpetually offended is a fool's errand" So damned right, GeekyBugle!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: RebelSky on August 15, 2022, 01:27:20 PM
Most likely a different expansionist culture would have invaded North America. They wouldn't have been white, but they would have still expanded and settled. Colonialism has never been just a white people thing. It's been happening for thousands of years.

The designers of Coyote & Crow are just that ignorant of history and their own people and the possible repercussions of what would happen in an alternate history of a wiped out 12th century Europe. Guarantee some group of people would have expanded into Europe in time. More wars would have been fought.

I predict in this alternate world either the Aztecs or a Khan ruled China would have invaded North America for it's resources. But that's just one possibility.

While I agree with your assessment in principle, it wouldn't apply to the the setting of C&C. In the setting, the reason the Americas were never colonized is that meteors crashed into the Earth 700 years ago, mostly in Europe/Asia/Africa. Those continents are smoking wastelands that the people of the Americas haven't bothered exploring.
So the author manages to sidestep the issue of another culture (like the Chinese or Muslims) invading instead. Or the Europeans invading at a later date.

Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 15, 2022, 11:43:16 AM
I understand that $1 million is not a lot in a business context, but I also understand that getting +$1million or losing $1million is a big enough sum of money to have repercussions, even for a business generating billions.  Coyote and Crow is a small publisher.  Generating $1 million is a huge amount of money for most small publishers, especially for their first product. 

I read the posts by the founder about how playing a Native character is not cultural appropriation in the context of the game.  I'm CONFIDENT that nobody that posts regularly on these boards believes that playing a Native character is Coyote and Crow qualifies as unacceptable cultural appropriation - I doubt most people here even think that's POSSIBLE.  So when the founder says playing this game doesn't count as cultural appropriation, I agree.  Does anyone here really disagree?  Really? 

I don't know if Connor Alexander 100% committed to leaving all other work and surviving on his RGP writing credits, but even if he did and he can't survive EXCLUSIVELY on that, I wouldn't consider this a failure.  He's produced a book; there are at least 16,000 people that had a chance to experience his creative work.  There are more than that discussing the product and having conversations about the play space and products.  Generally, I'm in favor of more product availability - while I don't expect every product to appeal to every consumer, more choices mean that there is more for each individual consumer, including the possibility of someone's new favorite game. 

In that context, there's nothing wrong with Coyote and Crow.  Going bankrupt isn't always the end (if that's even happening).  It happened for TSR, too.  It's hard to think of D&D as anything other than a 'success'. 

Does someone want to help me understand what game(s) you're comparing it to that count as a success? 

Connor Alexander created a product that represents his passions.  He was able to create the project on his terms with the creative content producers he wanted to work with.  The product was created, it has been delivered into the hands of the people that asked for it.  His company (even if short of funds, and that's a big if) still exists and can still try to create additional product. 

Maybe my standards of success are too low, but that all sounds like something I could be proud of.

  Color me shocked you have low standards.

  You droll on and on in this thread about having a dude preach to you in a book he wants you to pay money for is "helpful" and you just can not see what the fuss is about.  Why bother?  You want the book, you get it.  Change hearts and minds with telling us all what wonderful games you ran from the book that other games just couldnt do, not by whining about people are just taking the author's "helpful advice" the wrong way.

Here's the most recent comment from the KS. I think some of the backers are beginning to realize they may have been had.

See comment at https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/connoralexander/coyote-and-crow/comments

"Stewart White
2 days ago
I just got your e-mail regarding the donation process to the First Nations communities. You can get bent. First off, the price you charged for shipping to Canada for MY copy was absurd and well above the estimate. Then I got hosed for close to @50.00 cdn for that book by UPS for "Brokerage fees".

Now you are telling me that you expect me to pay another $32.00 USD to cover shipping of my donated copy to my local First Nations community and then likely leave them holding the bag for ANOTHER $50.00 in brokerage fees from UPS?

You guys are crooks. There's no other word for it.

How about instead of turning me upside down and shaking until the last nickel falls out, you live up to your original promise and get that donated copy where it needs to be? That or give me back the extra portion of my initial pledge that was supposed to cover the donated copy.

Below you will find the link to the Chippewas of Georgina Island. You can get in touch with their Librarian and find out where they'd like you to send their copy.

This is the most incompetent Kickstarter I've ever been involved in.

https://georginaisland.com/ "

Quote from: wmarshal on August 17, 2022, 10:17:23 AM
Here's the most recent comment from the KS. I think some of the backers are beginning to realize they may have been had.

See comment at https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/connoralexander/coyote-and-crow/comments

"Stewart White
2 days ago
I just got your e-mail regarding the donation process to the First Nations communities. You can get bent. First off, the price you charged for shipping to Canada for MY copy was absurd and well above the estimate. Then I got hosed for close to @50.00 cdn for that book by UPS for "Brokerage fees".

Now you are telling me that you expect me to pay another $32.00 USD to cover shipping of my donated copy to my local First Nations community and then likely leave them holding the bag for ANOTHER $50.00 in brokerage fees from UPS?

You guys are crooks. There's no other word for it.

How about instead of turning me upside down and shaking until the last nickel falls out, you live up to your original promise and get that donated copy where it needs to be? That or give me back the extra portion of my initial pledge that was supposed to cover the donated copy.

Below you will find the link to the Chippewas of Georgina Island. You can get in touch with their Librarian and find out where they'd like you to send their copy.

This is the most incompetent Kickstarter I've ever been involved in.

https://georginaisland.com/ "

But I was told that, since C&C made 1 million+, the guy was swimming in cash and not even close to going broke!

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 17, 2022, 11:21:48 AM
But I was told that, since C&C made 1 million+, the guy was swimming in cash and not even close to going broke!

Just give WokemanWalking time and I'm sure he will come up with a perfectly sane and valid reason why this complaint is completly false and how the designers are the true champions of us oppreseded minorities and handicapped. And then take off running with the goal posts instead of just admitting he was wrong like he was wrong all those other times.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 17, 2022, 11:21:48 AM

But I was told that, since C&C made 1 million+, the guy was swimming in cash and not even close to going broke!

All those Millions of Dollaroonies and the author can't afford to bulk ship books to a place that probably doesnt' even want them.

I did enjoy reading the comment where someone bought a copy and asked where their physical version was. He was told "You bought a copy for some BiPOC, you don't get a physical copy they do."

Quote from: THE_Leopold on August 17, 2022, 12:03:48 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 17, 2022, 11:21:48 AM

But I was told that, since C&C made 1 million+, the guy was swimming in cash and not even close to going broke!

All those Millions of Dollaroonies and the author can't afford to bulk ship books to a place that probably doesnt' even want them.

I did enjoy reading the comment where someone bought a copy and asked where their physical version was. He was told "You bought a copy for some BiPOC, you don't get a physical copy they do."

Well, the BiPOC would, except he can't afford to meet his obligation and ship the donated books. That's why he's begging for help from fools to give him more money. If I worked on that project I'd hope that I got paid in full already.

Quote from: THE_Leopold on August 17, 2022, 12:03:48 PM
All those Millions of Dollaroonies and the author can't afford to bulk ship books to a place that probably doesnt' even want them.

I did enjoy reading the comment where someone bought a copy and asked where their physical version was. He was told "You bought a copy for some BiPOC, you don't get a physical copy they do."

There were several comments about people not receiving their books months after the delivery period. Probably all similar situations. Not surprising, really. I don't think reading comprehension is their strong suit. My favorite comment is the guy that said he watched Black Panther and "wept at the beauty of what could have been were it not for violence and colonization." As if Africa was all sunshine and rainbows before the English came. Same goes for tribal North America. When I hear people say, "give back the land," my first question is "To who?" Tribes were fighting and kiling each other over land and resources long before Columbus Sailed the Ocean Blue in Fourteen-Hundred Ninety Two.

Quote from: Effete on August 17, 2022, 12:37:31 PM

Quote from: THE_Leopold on August 17, 2022, 12:03:48 PM
All those Millions of Dollaroonies and the author can't afford to bulk ship books to a place that probably doesnt' even want them.

I did enjoy reading the comment where someone bought a copy and asked where their physical version was. He was told "You bought a copy for some BiPOC, you don't get a physical copy they do."

There were several comments about people not receiving their books months after the delivery period. Probably all similar situations. Not surprising, really. I don't think reading comprehension is their strong suit. My favorite comment is the guy that said he watched Black Panther and "wept at the beauty of what could have been were it not for violence and colonization." As if Africa was all sunshine and rainbows before the English came. Same goes for tribal North America. When I hear people say, "give back the land," my first question is "To who?" Tribes were fighting and kiling each other over land and resources long before Columbus Sailed the Ocean Blue in Fourteen-Hundred Ninety Two.

You are using logic and reason to work with people who use feelings and emotion in lieu of them.

Quote from: THE_Leopold on August 17, 2022, 12:40:00 PM
You are using logic and reason to work with people who use feelings and emotion in lieu of them.

And selective reading/cherry-picking.
I'd put money down that at least a few of these people legitimately thought they could buy a "donation book" and have it shipped to their house for free.

I think the author had his reasons for writing his game the way he wanted. 

But.

Even I know that if you get weird about racial distinctions, then you're going to create a shit show.

Either own it, or don't do it at all.  Making people mad, or at least suspicious that they're being subtly insulted will drive those customers away.   This one seems more blatant.  White people = bad.  Let's make a backstory where there are no white people.  Now let's get white people to buy it.

What did this guy expect?