Quote from: Dave R;956344But if you're just doing a one pass hack of D&D it'd be more honest and respectful of your players to say "hey, no spellcasters this game, I'm going for a Conan thing" than to say "oh yeah, wizards are fine *snicker* (I'll just nuke them later)".

I usually try to be clear about expectations.  I am also a permissive DM, so if the players find a way to get around my limitations I am happy to roll with it.  No really, absolutly thrilled when they do that they become my parterns instead of my students (analog relationship not actual).

I don't like how computer gamey the spells are.  I don't know how to explain it.  I feel like "oh the wizard is out of spells, time to change the batteries."

As for divination which apparently is a problem for some games, I kind of thinknof it like active sonar.  Sure you can ping and find out where everything is but any one listening hears you too.

If you want D&D, play or take a look at DCC or Conan d20 both have some good ideas to grab, also take a look at Hackmaster Basic, the rules for exploding damage, special attacks and defenses on natural 19's and 20's make for more dynamic and deadly combat.

If you're not 100% sold on D&D, play Mythras with the Classic Fantasy supplement.

Quote from: Headless;956445As for divination which apparently is a problem for some games, I kind of thinknof it like active sonar.  Sure you can ping and find out where everything is but any one listening hears you too.

If you are using 5e as a base, take a look at the description for the Scrying spell, particularly "...The spell creates an invisible sensor within 10ft of the target. A creature that can see invisible objects sees the sensor as a luminous orb..."

Quote from: Headless;955731I like d&d. I like Hitpoints.  But I want a level of Risk in combat starting at the first round.  I also don't like the unlimited magic casters get.  There should be conquences for getting hurt and for unleashing the powers of creation.

So I am experimenting with a couple of rules to make combat more dangerous and to make magic just as powerful but the casters need to ration their spells carefully.

This will be an over lay for 5th ed D&D.

Thoughs and suggestions apreaciated.  I haven't play tested yet.  Also tiny phone.  Thanks for your understand of my terrible spelling.

First thanks to who ever mentioned the knight slayer crossbow.  It did 5d4 damage and took a long time to load.  It started this train of thought.


All damage dice explode.  On a max roll on any die roll again and add that number to the total, keep rolling as long as you keep maxing.  This makes Fire balls and magic missiles much much more dangerous.  Double dice swords like the Great sword and Falchon also more dangerous.  I might use the threat ranges from 3rd.  
The rogue sneak damage wouldn't explode in combat flanking situations.  But it would in non-combat suprise round situations.

Magic - If a caster casts spells level equal to their charcter level or higher they are exhusted.  They can't regain spells until they rest, for days.  Maybe 2d4 days? Maybe equal to their level.  

They can cast but there are risks.  On the frist cast role a d12. On the next role a d10 ...
On a roll of 1 their mind is exhusted and they lose concentration with disasterous results. Roll a d6

6- lose that spell permanently.  If they find it again they can try to relearn it but thre is now guarntee.

5- lose containment.  All the spells still memorized go off.  All at once.  This is bad.  DM targets the spells but some bad things always hit the casters allies.  Don't target for maximum harm but make it sting. 0 level spells go off 0-3 times randomly targeted.

4 - Detonation.  Caster takes 1d6 lighting damage for every level of spell they still have memorised.  Then half strenght bolts come arcing off.  Stricking either completely randomly or seeking the nearest target.  Secondairy bolts equal to the number of spells memorised or the number of 6s on the initial damage roll.  They continue jumping halfing in strenght each time until they hit 1d6 but they don't split again.

3- Blood Fire.  Perminatly lose hit points. 1d10 maybe?

2 Burn out.  Lose spell gaining ability.  For a long time.  Maybe perminate. Not less than a year.

1- Coma.  Hit the ground like a sack of shit.  You don't wake up for at least a day.  Maybe as long as a week or two.  If some one does manage to wake you damage will be done.  This is a protective coma your body has sent you into to heal and prevent harm.

You can not use re rolls from luck or other comon ways on these rolls.  But possibly you could gain a boon or a charm from fates,  furies and lesser devines to avoid or mitigate disasters.

Encumbrance, Movement, Short and Long rest.

Short rest is overnight not less than 12 hours.  Long rest is 2d4 days.  

You can't get a short or long rest if traveling in heavy armor. Unless you are traveling on roads.  If traveling on good roads and staying in Inns or well prepared camps long rest can be over night and a short rest can drop down to an hour or two.  

Since I am adding a ristriction to heavy armor I think I will add a boon.  Either damage reduction or the ability to "take it on the armor" and hit twice or something.

Thoughts?

I like the dangerousness of exploding dice, that would go some way to combating 5e HP inflation at 11th+

I like the d12 usage die on casting. I'd make up a huge table of weird effects for it, like Wild Magic but darker.

I like the 2d4 day long rest and overnight short rest. This will mean even short rest classes will think twice about spamming their abilities, there often be a meaningful choice to be made mid dungeon. Possibly wont fix the "wilderness trek" over a week issue of spamming abilities during the day, but it's better than 5e default.

I'm not sure about the heavy armour thing - is that really necessary?

If you want more consequences for getting hurt, you might look at implementing a lingering injury table of some kind, and introduce a spell that (slowly) removes such.

Quote from: Psikerlord;956489If you want more consequences for getting hurt, you might look at implementing a lingering injury table of some kind, and introduce a spell that (slowly) removes such.

Again, it's something I like about DCC that (at least in our game) we run into a fair bit of stuff that causes 'conditions' in addition to straight up HP loss. Conditions hit base characteristics and don't necessarily heal naturally... and they're a bit harder to heal with magic.
There's also the permanent stat loss taken every time your PC is brought back from the brink of death.

And I do like the idea of slower healing spells...
One of the things that I often dislike about magic healing is the immediate/infallible nature of it... it has a 'meta' quality to it, as it's more about addressing Player/game concerns than setting/plausibility. Something slower, perhaps with complications, would work better for my tastes. Maybe make it so slow spells can be pushed to act faster, but with commensurate risks... such as causing weird growths and strange appetites.

I can't quite grasp why you want to hack 5th when there are so many spins and versions of D&D that do a great job of achieving the results you are looking for.  5th, I think, is a trickier version of D&D to hack than most primarily because of the ways that classes are structured.  Besides, 5th  has HP inflation, and almost every single class has magic.  To me at least, the assumptions of 5th is that of a highly magical world.  You have some good ideas, and I hack games all the time, so I get where you are coming from, but if I wanted to hack D&D to get a more gritty sword and sorcery vibe, 5th would be among my last choices.  Power to you, if that is what you want to do, but again DCC, Mongoose d20 Conan (best version of 3.5 by far), and Crypts and Things already do what you are trying to do and do it well, and any older edition of D&D would make a better starting point for a hack than 5th, at least  IMHO.

Quote from: Madprofessor;956656I can't quite grasp why you want to hack 5th .....

 ......
DCC, Mongoose d20 Conan (best version of 3.5 by far), and Crypts and Things already do what you are trying to do and do it well, and any older edition of D&D would make a better starting point for a hack than 5th, at least  IMHO.

Its very simple.  So simple no one seams to be able to understand.  

I don't have those games.  And I can't get them.  What ever I play will be D&D 3rd, or 5th.  Or pathfinder (and it won't be pathfinder) or pre d20 world of darkness.  I have role master, I could get HackMasted, and I could get Pallaidum but won't cause I know the system and its too involved.  

So it will be either a paint over 3 or 5 or completely home brew.  (I have 1 and 2 as well but I like 3 and 5 better no thac0)  

If you have some extra copies of those systems you are suggesting and want to send them to me that would be swell.  Or I might find them used in a comic book shop but I won't hold my breath.

Quote from: Headless;956658Its very simple.  So simple no one seams to be able to understand.  

I don't have those games.  And I can't get them.  What ever I play will be D&D 3rd, or 5th.  Or pathfinder (and it won't be pathfinder) or pre d20 world of darkness.  I have role master, I could get HackMasted, and I could get Pallaidum but won't cause I know the system and its too involved.  

So it will be either a paint over 3 or 5 or completely home brew.  (I have 1 and 2 as well but I like 3 and 5 better no thac0)  

If you have some extra copies of those systems you are suggesting and want to send them to me that would be swell.  Or I might find them used in a comic book shop but I won't hold my breath.

OK, I get you, but this is what I would do.  Crypts and Things is a version of OD&D adapted to sword and sorcery.  It has deadly combat and dangerous magic.  All it is basically is Swords and Wizardry (OD&D) modified by Akrasia's house rules which were published in Fight On! Magazine.

You can download Swords and Wizardry for free here:

http://www.lulu.com/shop/matthew-finch/swords-wizardry-core-rules-pdf/ebook/product-15718826.html

Then you can go to Akrasia's blog, Akratic Wizardry, and his house rules can be found there.  You can get them here:

http://akraticwizardry.blogspot.com/2009/07/swords-sorcery-house-rules-index.html

And Bam! You have 90% of Crypts and things minus the setting.  Free D&D for gritty swords and sorcery that is rules light and easily hackable if you want to make adjustments.

That's my suggestion.

Although, I want to re-iterate that if hacking 5th is really what you want to do - go for it! It's your game.  It's not what I would do, but you're not me, and there is nothing wrong with your approach.  I'll shut up now and quit making suggestions about what I would do if I were in your place.

edit: oh and there is no thac0 either, with S&W and C&T you can use either ascending or descending AC.

Quote from: Headless;956658Its very simple.  So simple no one seams to be able to understand.  

I don't have those games.  And I can't get them.  What ever I play will be D&D 3rd, or 5th.  Or pathfinder (and it won't be pathfinder) or pre d20 world of darkness.  I have role master, I could get HackMasted, and I could get Pallaidum but won't cause I know the system and its too involved.  

So it will be either a paint over 3 or 5 or completely home brew.  (I have 1 and 2 as well but I like 3 and 5 better no thac0)  

If you have some extra copies of those systems you are suggesting and want to send them to me that would be swell.  Or I might find them used in a comic book shop but I won't hold my breath.

You could check out Low Fantasy Gaming rpg (d20 variant, low magic base, free PDF or print on demand: https://lowfantasygaming.com/ )

Quote from: Headless;956658Its very simple.  So simple no one seams to be able to understand.  

So it will be either a paint over 3 or 5 or completely home brew.  (I have 1 and 2 as well but I like 3 and 5 better no thac0)  

Yes multiple people do understand.... they keep telling you "DCC". Turn up the hearing aid.

Seriously it is a paint over of 3 rd edition. Exactly what you are asking for..... Ascending AC, the same three saving throws, you can port some skills if you have to. Think of the fighter's mighty deeds in terms of feats.

If you can't afford it, there are PDFs of the quickstart rules floating around if you search Dungeon Crawl Classic Rules.

Try it out and get back to us with more guidance. Enjoy the TPK you evil bastard.

Enough people have told me DDC that I will have to take a look.  I can afford my copy.  I can't get 3.  My players bought 5th we had a game that fell apart for life related reasons (not mine). I can probably get them to change 1 more time.  But thats it, if I ask for a thrid system change I lose them.  

Thanks for all your help.  Sorry to be difficult.  I am very jellous of most of you for the strenght and depth and permanence of the gaming comunity you are in.  I don't think you know how lucky you are.

What about attracting the attentions of powerful spirts if the casters really cut loose?  I'm going for a "the world is alive and mysterious occasionally capricious" if they there is a bunch of high level spells going off thats going to attract attention.  Spirts, ghost, fey, deamons, dragon, gods and maybe even mortal practitioners.  

 It would amp up the role playing. And add consequences to roll playing.