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Pen & Paper Roleplaying Central => Pen and Paper Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Discussion => Topic started by: jan paparazzi on October 10, 2020, 04:56:31 AM

Title: Core principles of the OSR
Post by: jan paparazzi on October 10, 2020, 04:56:31 AM
Hi, I see many different topic about the OSR and I found some articles about the OSR claiming it's core principles or foundations. What do you think are the core principles of this movement? I also remember the Pundit wrote an article about several years ago stating the OSR foundations and I can't find it anymore, so if anyone has a link, you are welcome. Anyway, let me know what you think and I can get a better grip and what the term OSR actually means in design philosophy other than being nostalgic about old school rpg's and D&D.
Title: Re: Core principles of the OSR
Post by: Dimitrios on October 10, 2020, 11:07:03 AM
Hi, I see many different topic about the OSR and I found some articles about the OSR claiming it's core principles or foundations. What do you think are the core principles of this movement?

That TSR era D&D wasn't as broken and unplayable as some people like to claim.
Title: Re: Core principles of the OSR
Post by: Mercurius on October 10, 2020, 12:21:31 PM
You might find the Principia Apocrypha useful: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view)

I don't see "old school" as an either/or type of thing, but more of a spectrum, even a buffet of ideas and approaches that one can incorporate into their game. So the irony of the OSR is that by codifying old school, it runs the danger of becoming a kind of new-school version of old school, an enantiodromia through formalizing something that is meant to be free-flowing and infinitely customizable. This may be the difference between approaching old school via the letter or spirit of the law.

Many people continued playing new editions of D&D in an "old school" style, regardless of the rule set involved. Some of these folks didn't need to go (back) to OSR games, because they never stopped playing in an old school manner, regardless of edition. Meaning, the style is not dependent upon the edition or rules set, or at least the rules are secondary to the way you approach and use them. Or to give one example, old school doesn't require that you cash in gold for XP. To take every aspect of a document like the one above and codify it, is to confuse the letter and spirit and miss arguably the most important aspect of old school, the "rule zero" of "your table is yours."
Title: Re: Core principles of the OSR
Post by: Null42 on October 10, 2020, 12:46:07 PM
From what I've seen a short and early text seems to be the Quick Primer for Old School Gaming (available for free at Lulu).

Principles are:
Rulings, not Rules
Player Skill, not Character Abilities
Heroic, not Superhero
Forget about 'Game Balance'

Basically, you make stuff up as you go along rather than looking for page 356 of the manual, you have to think to check for hidden doors instead of rolling 'spot hidden', you are Batman not Superman, and nobody says there can't be a beholder on the 1st level of the dungeon behind that line of statues of screaming adventurers.

Have I got it?

Title: Re: Core principles of the OSR
Post by: Ratman_tf on October 10, 2020, 06:41:39 PM
Hi, I see many different topic about the OSR and I found some articles about the OSR claiming it's core principles or foundations. What do you think are the core principles of this movement?

That TSR era D&D wasn't as broken and unplayable as some people like to claim.

It's been a long time, and I've forgotten the attributtion.* But someone put it "The rules are right." In that a lot of quirks from old school D&D were house ruled away until few remembered why in the first place. And the OSR went back, rediscovered those rules, and gave them a critical look instead of dismissing them out of hand.

*Hey, I found it!
http://trollsmyth.blogspot.com/2010/04/theoretical-framework-for-osr.html
Title: Re: Core principles of the OSR
Post by: estar on October 10, 2020, 09:48:52 PM
Hi, I see many different topic about the OSR and I found some articles about the OSR claiming it's core principles or foundations. What do you think are the core principles of this movement?
Use the open content of the D20 System Reference Document to support and publish for classic editions of D&D with a small minority relying on game mechanics not being able to be copyrighted to support the classic editions, and another small minority publishing material useable with the classic editions of D&D that compatible but doesn't rely on the original IP.

While doing this using what current in digital technology and digital distribution. Which allowed most projects to be realized in the time one has for a hobby along with creating a situation where there are no dominate publisher. Also created a situation where there are no "core" principle other than I do it because I can with the time I have and with the tools and material at hand.

The reason there appears to be a movement at all because it centered on the use of the classic editions of D&D. This element provides a foundation on which people use to create a label  in order to try to simplify the actions of hundreds of authors operating independently or in small groups. Likewise the minimalist nature of some of the classic editions creates an illusion of minimalism along with interest in certain adventure styles like megadungeons, or sandbox campaigns.

However because the OSR is a kaleidoscope created by hundreds of authors, you can talk specific individuals doing specific things and why they are doing them. For example my work with the Judges Guild Wilderlands setting and sandbox campaigns. Matt Finch's work with OSRIC and Swords & Wizardry, Jeff Rients' interest in a more gonzo style, James Raggi interest in weird horror and so on. The only thing that connects us is an interest in the classic editions, and following up on the realization that we can do our projects with the time and tools at our disposal.

Title: Re: Core principles of the OSR
Post by: Spinachcat on October 11, 2020, 01:37:02 AM
Which OSR?

As an OSR fan and OSR contributor, I can attest there isn't one OSR, but multiple of factions with their own philosophies and agendas.

For instance, there's a whole faction of OSR fans who are all about TSR Revivalism (aka, the goal of the OSR is to play old stuff) and OSR contributors who don't have little interest in using TSR D&D as the baseline of their games, but focus on reviving interest by creating retroclones of non-D&D games.

However, there is *some* general agreement regarding Old School as a playstyle, and that transcends most factions. That said, there's also varying levels of revisionism regarding how some OSR luminaries claim their favorite games were played back in the day.

And then there's the O5R...
Title: Re: Core principles of the OSR
Post by: Shawn Driscoll on October 11, 2020, 02:00:38 AM
Many people continued playing new editions of D&D in an "old school" style, regardless of the rule set involved. Some of these folks didn't need to go (back) to OSR games, because they never stopped playing in an old school manner, regardless of edition.
I was saying this 10 years ago when I was part of the YouTube RPG crowd.
Title: Re: Core principles of the OSR
Post by: S'mon on October 11, 2020, 06:02:58 AM
That said, there's also varying levels of revisionism regarding how some OSR luminaries claim their favorite games were played back in the day.

"Back in the day" itself covers a range of periods from 1974 (& earlier!) through to at least the release of 2e AD&D in 88/89, and some people will put it to the end of 2e AD&D in 1999/2000. So you get some people wanting to recreate a 1981 Moldvay/Cook BX or Mentzer BECM(I) style of play, others a 1e AD&D (pre or post Unearthed Arcana); some look to TSR modules & adventures as the model for play. But the single strongest* force seems to be/have been the desire to recreate the game played ca 1974-1976, before the release of the 1e DMG and before D&D had much more than a cult following, albeit a popular cult. Hence the focus on megadungeons, strategic play, Lew Pulsipher type skilled play, and other features seen as characteristic of OD&D.  I find this antiquarianism very interesting and it certainly has brought up stuff I'd not considered, and caused me to try megadungeon campaign play. It turns out my players love megadungeons rather more than I do :D - I'm much more of a wilderness-sandbox type guy it turns out. :D

*After the initial early focus on 1e AD&D style module publication (OSRIC) and B/X retroclone (Basic Fantasy, Labyrinth Lord) with the popularity of S&W and the rise of the OSR bloggers, the OSR moved on to a strong focus on the campaign dungeon.
Title: Re: Core principles of the OSR
Post by: bat on October 11, 2020, 05:53:46 PM
As I said in another post, TARGA was a group created right before the OSR really kicked in and the driving goal was simply: get people playing older games (not just D&D) instead of talking about them. This was at the Dawn of the Simulacrums and before people like Dan Proctor and Brett Bernstein rejuvenated many older game lines.
Title: Re: Core principles of the OSR
Post by: jan paparazzi on October 11, 2020, 06:12:21 PM
From what I've seen a short and early text seems to be the Quick Primer for Old School Gaming (available for free at Lulu).

Principles are:
Rulings, not Rules
Player Skill, not Character Abilities
Heroic, not Superhero
Forget about 'Game Balance'

Basically, you make stuff up as you go along rather than looking for page 356 of the manual, you have to think to check for hidden doors instead of rolling 'spot hidden', you are Batman not Superman, and nobody says there can't be a beholder on the 1st level of the dungeon behind that line of statues of screaming adventurers.

Have I got it?
Yeah, something like this is what I meant. It seems to be mostly about player agency without it being rules-heavy.
Title: Re: Core principles of the OSR
Post by: Eirikrautha on October 11, 2020, 10:13:46 PM
From what I've seen a short and early text seems to be the Quick Primer for Old School Gaming (available for free at Lulu).

Principles are:
Rulings, not Rules
Player Skill, not Character Abilities
Heroic, not Superhero
Forget about 'Game Balance'

Basically, you make stuff up as you go along rather than looking for page 356 of the manual, you have to think to check for hidden doors instead of rolling 'spot hidden', you are Batman not Superman, and nobody says there can't be a beholder on the 1st level of the dungeon behind that line of statues of screaming adventurers.

Have I got it?
Yeah, something like this is what I meant. It seems to be mostly about player agency without it being rules-heavy.
Ehhh, "rules-heavy" probably isn't the right term, just because some of the old-school games had more rules than most modern games.  The difference was, I think, the rules in the old school were much more organic.  The grew out of a need at the table to simulate some thing that the players or DM felt mattered to their success at the moment.  So there was no real effort to make universal resolution systems or the like.  There's a dozen different resolution systems in AD&D alone, each growing out of some event at (mostly) Gary's table.  While I think the move towards universal systems of resolution has made modern games more easily learned (and thereby more popular), I often feel that this has lost something special or unique.  There is something a bit off-putting about the quest to make one kind of die roll the solution to every problem.  I think it's one reason for the loss of two of the three pillars of the old D&D experience.  Perception and persuasion should be something the players do, not roll for...
Title: Re: Core principles of the OSR
Post by: Nerzenjäger on October 12, 2020, 11:34:32 AM
As I said in another post, TARGA was a group created right before the OSR really kicked in and the driving goal was simply: get people playing older games (not just D&D) instead of talking about them. This was at the Dawn of the Simulacrums and before people like Dan Proctor and Brett Bernstein rejuvenated many older game lines.

This statement only makes sense if you can state a definitive origin point of what you call OSR. Pro Tip: you can't.
Title: Re: Core principles of the OSR
Post by: jan paparazzi on October 12, 2020, 02:04:27 PM
I thought no rules but rulings was all about not having too many subsystems.   ???

Anyway, I did some digging and I did find these principles:

Rulings, not Rules
Player Skill, not Character Abilities
Heroic, not Superhero
Forget about 'Game Balance

And I would like to add:

Player Decision, not Scripted Story Plots
Title: Re: Core principles of the OSR
Post by: VengerSatanis on October 12, 2020, 03:58:58 PM
If anyone's interested in my collected wisdom (FREE PDF), you can download OSR Like A Fucking Boss here: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/298385/Old-School-Renaissance-Like-A-Fucking-Boss

Thanks,

VS
Title: Re: Core principles of the OSR
Post by: christopherkubasik on October 12, 2020, 06:58:34 PM
Likewise the minimalist nature of some of the classic editions creates an illusion of minimalism...
What is the illusion of minimalism (in contrast to the minimalist nature of some of the rules editions)?
Thanks!
Title: Re: Core principles of the OSR
Post by: Spinachcat on October 12, 2020, 11:57:04 PM
If anyone's interested in my collected wisdom (FREE PDF), you can download OSR Like A Fucking Boss here: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/298385/Old-School-Renaissance-Like-A-Fucking-Boss

Your boss must get into a LOT of trouble with human resources!
Title: Re: Core principles of the OSR
Post by: bat on October 13, 2020, 11:11:01 AM
As I said in another post, TARGA was a group created right before the OSR really kicked in and the driving goal was simply: get people playing older games (not just D&D) instead of talking about them. This was at the Dawn of the Simulacrums and before people like Dan Proctor and Brett Bernstein rejuvenated many older game lines.

This statement only makes sense if you can state a definitive origin point of what you call OSR. Pro Tip: you can't.

I said, before the OSR really kicked in. Not an exact point of origin. Pro tip: READING COMPREHENSION IS GOOD.
Title: Re: Core principles of the OSR
Post by: Eric Diaz on October 13, 2020, 06:29:01 PM
I tried my own OSR principles a looooong while ago... Took a slightly critical look at some of the Primer's ideas.

There are tagged "Old School Ramblings" i my blog.

I think I got:

- Play Now, Story Later
- Your character isn't special
- Stop looking at the character sheet

If anyone is interested, here is part I. But some of my opinions have changed since then, I'd say.

http://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2015/11/old-school-ramblings-1-play-now-story.html
Title: Re: Core principles of the OSR
Post by: Nerzenjäger on October 14, 2020, 01:37:59 AM
I tried my own OSR principles a looooong while ago... Took a slightly critical look at some of the Primer's ideas.

There are tagged "Old School Ramblings" i my blog.

I think I got:

- Play Now, Story Later
- Your character isn't special
- Stop looking at the character sheet

If anyone is interested, here is part I. But some of my opinions have changed since then, I'd say.

http://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2015/11/old-school-ramblings-1-play-now-story.html

I hate to say it, but those three are actually quite good. You don't need more than these.

As influental as Finch's Primer was, it is much more useful as a conversion tool for new school players, to change your look at RPGs ever so slightly to being receptive for old school play.
Title: Re: Core principles of the OSR
Post by: estar on October 14, 2020, 01:20:24 PM
This statement only makes sense if you can state a definitive origin point of what you call OSR. Pro Tip: you can't.
Having been there and was involved at the time, 2006 marks the beginning of the OSR. The release of OSRIC and Basic Fantasy were the final pieces of the elements that make up the OSR afterwards. Sure people were doing things with the classic editions but due the uncertainty over using the IP most never reached it full potential. The best were zines and magazines like OD&Dities, followed by adventure modules, after that it fell off quickly until after 2006.

We don't have to guess about it, it was comprehensively documented in the Hoards and Hordes spreadsheet from 2000 to April of 2012 after which it became more selective.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LUFmadXbg67pp9dEu_KsLc2-2Gf-0t5mVOvzetAqdFw/edit#gid=0


Title: Re: Core principles of the OSR
Post by: Eric Diaz on October 14, 2020, 03:25:36 PM
I hate to say it, but those three are actually quite good. You don't need more than these.

As influental as Finch's Primer was, it is much more useful as a conversion tool for new school players, to change your look at RPGs ever so slightly to being receptive for old school play.

Thanks man! I'm glad to hear that.
Title: Re: Core principles of the OSR
Post by: Aglondir on October 15, 2020, 12:25:11 AM
The Microlite series of PDFs, by Randall Stukey, has a great section on old school roleplaying. It's long, so here's a chopped down version from Microlite 81.

Quote
Heroic, not Superheroic: Old school play, especially at low to middle character levels, is about fairly normal people put in situations where they can be heroes, not about extraordinary people doing things that would make a four-color comic book superhero proud.

Achievement, not Advancement: ...a character’s abilities are generally predetermined by his character class, so old school
games focus on the things that the characters wish to accomplish in the game world rather than on what game mechanics hey want to acquire.

No Skills: ...Instead, you just tell the GM what your character is trying to do. Note that you are assumed to be
competent with all common activities associated with your class and background.

Limited Magic Items: ...magic items are relatively rare and hard to create. Only potions and scrolls are generally relatively easy to create or purchase. Other magic items are seldom found for sale... Therefore characters are usually limited to the magic items they find in treasures or take from defeated enemies on adventures.

No Assumption of “Game Balance”: Old style game sessions aren’t about carefully balanced characters (who are all able to
shine equally at all times) who only run into situations carefully designed by the GM to be beatable by the characters presently in the party and to provide treasure that fits their current level.

It’s Not All About Combat: ...The game is as much about exploration and treasuring finding as it is about combat...monsters don’t have to be killed to be defeated (and get XP for them).

Reality/Common Sense Trumps Rules: Old-school games use loose and simple rules that cover average cases and the GM and players are supposed to apply common sense and their knowledge of how reality works to cover the unusual and edge cases.

Forget “Rules Mastery”: ...player skill in “old school” style games isn’t about mastering the game rules so you can solve any problem by knowing the right combination of rules from 20 different rule books. ...Players need to remember that these rules are merely a tool for the GM. They are just guidelines for the GM, not something written in stone that the GM must obey. If something herein does not work right in your campaign (or the GM just does not like a rule), the GM is well within his right to change it.

Not Mentioned does not mean Prohibited: ...the millions of possible activities not mentioned in the rules are not prohibited, they are up to the GM to allow or disallow based on his knowledge of how reality works and how his specific campaign world differs from reality.
                     
Title: Re: Core principles of the OSR
Post by: Omega on October 15, 2020, 12:39:51 PM
The principles of the OSR are...

Steal other peoples works and slap your name on it with sometimes only superficial tweaks while using the d20 SRD/OGL as an excuse.

Claim that no one ever plays games like they used to anymore. Which is a lie on multiple levels because people were and are still playing the old ways. AND. People were playing the "new" ways way back at the start.

Title: Re: Core principles of the OSR
Post by: estar on October 15, 2020, 02:02:37 PM
Steal other peoples works and slap your name on it with sometimes only superficial tweaks while using the d20 SRD/OGL as an excuse.
Let me see it OK for me to republish the D20 SRD because Wizard explicitly gave permission to do so. But it is not OK for me to omit the newer mechanics, tweak a few numbers, and publish the result.

Got it.

Claim that no one ever plays games like they used to anymore. Which is a lie on multiple levels because people were and are still playing the old ways. AND. People were playing the "new" ways way back at the start.
Well, since I stated the above numerous times myself, and known other whom I know publish OSR material saying the same thing. Not sure who is the "they" you are talking about.
Title: Re: Core principles of the OSR
Post by: Rhedyn on October 15, 2020, 03:11:54 PM
Blessedly short combats and combat rounds while still playing a traditional RPG.

Cause honestly, fuck waiting 30 minutes or more between turns. I think modern RPGs just assumed you had less friends.
Title: Re: Core principles of the OSR
Post by: Spinachcat on October 17, 2020, 11:12:21 PM
The principles of the OSR are...

Steal other peoples works and slap your name on it with sometimes only superficial tweaks while using the d20 SRD/OGL as an excuse.

Back at the origin of the OSR, I had problems with the retro-clone craze too, basically for the same reason. I got the value of C&C doing AD&D 3e, but OSRIC seemed to be exactly that idea of "stealing" Gary & Dave's work.

I wasn't a fan of the idea, especially because AD&D books were easy to find on eBay, but I didn't grasp the yearning of many people to write (and read) "TSR compatible" stuff until I joined up with Knockspell and Fight On! magazines.

Also, I saw that the OSR world was swiftly moving beyond retroclones to include very original works using the old mechanics. Of course, we still see new clones like Old School Essentials (OSE) and others, but I think that's because there is an audience for New Books + New Art + Old Rules that's willing to spend.

Plus, there's the old chestnut of "Amateurs borrow. Professionals steal."


Title: Re: Core principles of the OSR
Post by: Null42 on October 19, 2020, 04:35:45 PM
Plus, there's the old chestnut of "Amateurs borrow. Professionals steal."

"If you copy from one book, that’s plagiarism; if you copy from many books, that’s research."

--Prof. Wallace Notestein (later used by Walter Winchell and Tom Lehrer)
Title: Re: Core principles of the OSR
Post by: EOTB on October 19, 2020, 06:56:05 PM
Of course, we still see new clones like Old School Essentials (OSE) and others, but I think that's because there is an audience for New Books + New Art + Old Rules that's willing to spend.

Yeah, OSRIC was never conceived as a replacement game, or intended to be sold as a stand-alone game at all.  It was expected to be used more akin to the 3E SRD by publishers while everyone else continued to use their AD&D books at the table.

And then the immediate ask was to include the essay-text, art, etc, necessary for full, typical rpg game books

The people who wrote/edited OSRIC didn’t make money off their effort.  I believe that’s the one and only retroclone that can make that claim.  BFRPG also might qualify, I think they’re also not-for-profit on the rules, but they’re not a clone per se. 
Title: Re: Core principles of the OSR
Post by: Armchair Gamer on October 19, 2020, 07:01:05 PM
The people who wrote/edited OSRIC didn’t make money off their effort.  I believe that’s the one and only retroclone that can make that claim.  BFRPG also might qualify, I think they’re also not-for-profit on the rules, but they’re not a clone per se.
   

  I think For Gold and Glory is also sold at cost.
Title: Re: Core principles of the OSR
Post by: S'mon on October 20, 2020, 02:13:47 AM
BFRPG also might qualify, I think they’re also not-for-profit on the rules, but they’re not a clone per se.

AFAIK all BFRPG material is free download and print at cost, even adventures.
Title: Re: Core principles of the OSR
Post by: Kyle Aaron on October 20, 2020, 11:57:22 PM
Rulings, not Rules
Player Skill, not Character Abilities
Heroic, not Superhero
Forget about 'Game Balance

And I would like to add:

Player Decision, not Scripted Story Plots
Cool, I'm going to put that in my new rpg. I'll credit Matt Finch, but since you're just a pseudonomynous schlub online, you get no credit, sorry.
Title: Re: Core principles of the OSR
Post by: RPGPundit on October 25, 2020, 01:15:06 AM
I'm not sure which essay you're referring to (it's probably on my blog). But here's the video I made about the OSR:

Title: Re: Core principles of the OSR
Post by: Torque2100 on October 25, 2020, 06:12:47 PM
To me, the central core principle of the OSR is a movement against the modern (possibly Forge Theory influenced) tendency to systematize everything.  This is especially true of attempts to systematize things like "the social contract" in RPGs with systems like DM vs Player token economies.  Instead the OSR attempts to refocus RPGs on modeling the actions and consequences of characters in a living world.

Title: Re: Core principles of the OSR
Post by: rytrasmi on October 26, 2020, 10:22:06 AM
Player skill, not character abilities is a good one.

I'm running a game that has no INT stat. The rules say character intelligence is not a number, instead it's whatever is demonstrated by the player at the table.  I think this is better than the GM feeding info to the PC with the highest INT because he's the smart one. Or if I roll a low INT, I somehow gotta role play a dolt?

Don't even get me started about spot checks. GM: Roll a spot check! Players: Fail. Fail. Fail. GM: OK, I guess we all sit here awkwardly until I figure out a way to feed you the info that was denied by the roll. Maybe that's a bad example, but it's happened to me.

Forget about balance is also solid. Victory is not guaranteed. PCs should have to run away some times or *gasp* possibly even die.
Title: Re: Core principles of the OSR
Post by: Dimitrios on October 26, 2020, 11:05:35 AM
I don't know if this counts as a core principle, but the OSR seems to have inspired renewed appreciation for the benefits of modular systems. During the heyday of 3e, it was common to see people slamming the unsophisticated multi-subsystem nature of older games, since it was now obvious that integrated design was objectively superior.

Nowadays I think more people realize that it can actually be convenient to be able to modify or ignore a particular subsystem without worrying that it will break the game because a bunch of feats depend on interacting with it.
Title: Re: Core principles of the OSR
Post by: RPGPundit on November 08, 2020, 05:36:23 AM
To me, the central core principle of the OSR is a movement against the modern (possibly Forge Theory influenced) tendency to systematize everything.  This is especially true of attempts to systematize things like "the social contract" in RPGs with systems like DM vs Player token economies.  Instead the OSR attempts to refocus RPGs on modeling the actions and consequences of characters in a living world.

Well put.
Title: Re: Core principles of the OSR
Post by: RPGPundit on November 08, 2020, 05:37:25 AM
I don't know if this counts as a core principle, but the OSR seems to have inspired renewed appreciation for the benefits of modular systems. During the heyday of 3e, it was common to see people slamming the unsophisticated multi-subsystem nature of older games, since it was now obvious that integrated design was objectively superior.

Nowadays I think more people realize that it can actually be convenient to be able to modify or ignore a particular subsystem without worrying that it will break the game because a bunch of feats depend on interacting with it.

I think you're right, but actually a lot of the OSR (virtually all of the non-clone games) does something more clever: it takes some of the best ideas of standardization from the 3e+ era, while retaining the modularity of the earlier games.