In Pathfinder, cantrips are at-will but all the rest of the spells are standard Vancian.  Except a bonded item can be used to cast any known spell once a day.  The cantrips are non-Vancian, the bonded item is semi-Vancian (limited uses but no memorization), the rest is Vancian.  It all works together without a problem because the Vancian part is more powerful than the cantrips and the bonded item it 1/day.
 
If you look at what Monte actually  says, he probably has something along these lines in mind.  Having mage hand at will or the use of a floating disc doesn't invalidate choices in Vancian spell lists.  It merely means that you aren't reduced to a poor quality fighter once your spell list is burned through.  It also might allow mages to be magical in ways not worth a spell slot.
 
Right now, I'm not convinced but I'm interested and not willing to write them off based on a slanted reading of blog posts.

Quote from: Benoist;517382Yeah. And if I'm right this is what Monte is saying here, then we're fucked. If these guys can't figure out what is the truest, simplest expression of the D&D game for the core-sans-modules, all the rest will suck. It is "the" component of the game they should not botch.

I don't know why Monte write columns like this. The playtest doesn't come off like the way he writes in these columns.

The basic issue isn't necessarily what he write about. It is that he writes without pointing at specific examples. I don't care what game you are talking about. Without specific examples people can read a dozen different ways X can be done.

The current playtest would be considered a retro clone if was published by the OSR. More like Adventurer Conqueror King or my own Majestic Wilderlands than a emulation like OSRIC or Swords & Wizardry. It D&D NOT D&D In Name Only.

The 4e people have more to scream about that this point than the OSR or 3rd edition fans and probably the main reason why they are not doing this publicly until they have some of the options fleshed out.

How useful this will be to the OSR and 3rd edition gamers will be all in the presentation. If you have to pare away all the options to get at the game we are seeing in the playtest then older edition/3.x fans are not going to be won over. If however they are clearly presented in separate sections then I can see Wizards achieving it goals.

Quote from: estar;517392I don't know why Monte write columns like this. The playtest doesn't come off like the way he writes in these columns.

The basic issue isn't necessarily what he write about. It is that he writes without pointing at specific examples. I don't care what game you are talking about. Without specific examples people can read a dozen different ways X can be done.

You raise a good point. On Enworld peoples are wondering if the column meant that non combat spells would be handled by feats and combats by casting (which never occured to me reading the article). Examples might help.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;517387(I'm not including the OSR grognards in here because I don't see any way for WotC to appeal to any significant percentage of them except by reprinting whatever their favorite edition happens to be. Very little of the OSR is actually driven by any interest in actual principle: Most of it remains nostalgia and conservatism.)

While you are right about the core rules, if their adventure look and work like the Cave of Chaos playtest adventure then the OSR will be customers for their supplements and settings.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;517387Very little of the OSR is actually driven by any interest in actual principle: Most of it remains nostalgia and conservatism.)

I think that many of the most vocal bloggers and what not fit your profile; however, there are many, many more OSR bloggers who really do not. There can be no real argument though, that the bloggers who are this way certainly get the most attention. Simply put, if you write some misty eyed, backward looking post about how D&D went wrong the second hobbits became halflings then you will reap many, many comments and link backs because every one has opinion and most of them cannot wait to share, even if they have shared it 1000 times before. Sometimes, this leads to chain reaction, bandwagon blogging, and several bloggers will post on the same topic, generating a buzz, which leads to more conversation. OSR Bloggers, who post content, however, may be well regarded but their efforts result, in most cases, in a whole hell of a lot less noise.

Whatever, though, I think your larger point regarding WoTC and the grogs stands.

Quote from: Benoist;517377I think the real problem isn't that they're trying to appeal to all the audiences of D&D, I didn't word my previous post correctly I think. The real problem to me is that they seem to want to make everyone happy with the core-sans-modules, from the get-go, rather than the core+this-or-that-module. That's the mistake I'm seeing. I hope I misunderstand Monte's post here.

I'm not convinced that the meaning hopeful grognards have read into "modular" really has anything to do with what WotC ever meant when they said "modular".

Which is probably for the best. There will be no modular system that will "unite the fanbase". The only thing they'll produce is a modular system which is even more horrifically nightmarish for new players to pick up, further driving the hobby's gateway product into the ground.

In before the rage - I am not that much interested in 5e. I will probably not really buy it, as DnD was never my favourite RPG.

However.

Can we, for a brief moment, stop with the doomsayers and the panic? How about taking a step back, and giving them a chance?

First rumours not in line with the "5e will be AD&D reborn", and you people are panicking just like the 4vengers.

Let's all take a step back, and for a second, cheer for them perhaps? I understand - the sky got significantly darker. But it's always easier to naysay, then yaysay. If they produce a crappy game, we can stomp on them afterwards!

Quote from: Justin Alexander;517418I'm not convinced that the meaning hopeful grognards have read into "modular" really has anything to do with what WotC ever meant when they said "modular".

Which is probably for the best. There will be no modular system that will "unite the fanbase". The only thing they'll produce is a modular system which is even more horrifically nightmarish for new players to pick up, further driving the hobby's gateway product into the ground.

If that is the case, then good luck to them, I guess. That'll be without me.

Someone seriously needs to put a fucking muzzle on Cook. Every fucking time he opens his mouth 5e loses potential customers before it can even get its head out the door; and as far as I can see for fucking NOTHING.

Everything the guy has said, as Estar points out, bears no resemblance to anything I've seen of the rules so far. And yet he keeps going on, either utterly oblivious to or intentionally sabotaging the effort to sell 5e as a concept. I want to think its just that he's been so isolated for so long the brain-eater has got to him and he really doesn't know how the fuck to talk to gamers anymore; and yet despite my pleas it seems no one has actually told him what he's doing yet.

Unless we're all being completely dicked around and the rules we're all working on have fuck all to do with what they're actually going to do, which I can't completely discount as a possibility, I think old school gamers should just think of Monte as the redneck uncle who's off in his own little world talking gibberish because he actually doesn't know how offensive he is.  Let's just hope that no one at WoTC actually fucking listens to him.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;517421Someone seriously needs to put a fucking muzzle on Cook. Every fucking time he opens his mouth 5e loses potential customers before it can even get its head out the door; and as far as I can see for fucking NOTHING.

Everything the guy has said, as Estar points out, bears no resemblance to anything I've seen of the rules so far. And yet he keeps going on, either utterly oblivious to or intentionally sabotaging the effort to sell 5e as a concept. I want to think its just that he's been so isolated for so long the brain-eater has got to him and he really doesn't know how the fuck to talk to gamers anymore; and yet despite my pleas it seems no one has actually told him what he's doing yet.

RPGPundit

If anything, this was an ill - aimed shot at damage control towards the 4e/3e crowd.

Man, that just reads like half-assed blathering. Are they playing for time, or what? It is hard to take any of these messages seriously.

Quote from: RPGPundit;517421Someone seriously needs to put a fucking muzzle on Cook. Every fucking time he opens his mouth 5e loses potential customers before it can even get its head out the door; and as far as I can see for fucking NOTHING.

you gotta let mearls know that, you've got his ear, right?

Quote from: beeber;517424you gotta let mearls know that, you've got his ear, right?

Problem is, it was part of offering to Pundit. It now rests in a jar, being preserved in vinegar, ready to be gnawed upon if Foul Ole Ron ever picks his head up again.

Quote from: beeber;517424you gotta let mearls know that, you've got his ear, right?

I think Pundit actually did. He said as much some time ago. So either what we're seeing here is indeed total damage control PR bullshit, or there's something fishy going on behind the scenes. Somebody's not telling it how it is, here, and I bet this ain't estar nor the Pundit.

Quote from: Rincewind1;517419In

Can we, for a brief moment, stop with the doomsayers and the panic? How about taking a step back, and giving them a chance?

First rumours not in line with the "5e will be AD&D reborn", and you people are panicking just like the 4vengers.

Let's all take a step back, and for a second, cheer for them perhaps? I understand - the sky got significantly darker. But it's always easier to naysay, then yaysay. If they produce a crappy game, we can stomp on them afterwards!

The issue is WOTC D&D isn't the be all end all of rpgs aymore. I have been playing rpgs just fine without D&D for years now and what D&D I do play is usually 2E or 3e. I have given them far more chances than any other gaming company out there. But when 3.5 came out (even before that) they started losing me. So I just have no interest in investing 90 dollars in an edition that isn't D&D enough to carry the label (if I am going to pay D&D, i want it to fell and play like D&D). Now maybe what estar and pundit say is basically the case. I trust their judgment on this and they have more first hand knowledge of the actual mechanics than I do. If that is the case, ,and cook is just being unclear, maybe when it comes out I will take a look and enjoy it. The problem is right now they are trying to generate early interest, but they are giving mixed signals. If this game is for the 4e crowd they should say so. If it is the classic spells are changing or they are going to silo combat and non combat spells, they should at least be clear about that (or clear that they havent yet made a decision). It just feels like one day they say they are making a game I would play, but the next they say they are making a game I want nothing t do with.