Greetings!

Through the years, there often seems to be a convention embraced by campaign milieu's of a human centric baseline, but also the "Civilization vs Wilderness"; a relatively safe, pleasant urbanized world that is normal vs the shadowy, savage "Other" that includes mystery, magic, and monsters.

However, in my own studies of ancient history, folklore, and mythology--presumably which of course forms much of the foundations of traditional gaming--there seems to be a distinctly different interpretation amongst the people concerning how they viewed and experienced the larger world. in a nutshell, there is no such neat dividing lines, there is no safety, and there never was any to begin with. The mythological worlds certainly of the Celts, the Norse, the Germanic tribes, the Baltic peoples, the Slavs--to name a few of the most prominent--were absolutely *FULL of the mysterious, the magical, and the supernatural* on a daily basis. Supernatural nature spirits, strange maidens, gnomes and goblins were believed to be everywhere. The Russian and Slavic mythologies, for example, as well as the Baltic peoples and the Finnish mythology, describes supernatural spirit-creatures living in everything; the rivers, lakes, and streams; the marshes and bogs; the mountains, the forests and fields--even people's houses, barns, and public bathhouses--all had supernatural spirit creatures living in them, and interacting with humans on a regular basis. There were demons, witches, and evil, hungry women lurking in the forest, again, everywhere--to seduce men, enslave them, or slaughter them in fierce savagery.

In so many normal rituals and events--cooking breakfast, doing chores around the house, weaving thread, having babies, and more, all required various actions, rituals, or other interactions with these supernatural creatures. Failure to observe customs and show proper respect, failure to present daily offerings and gifts, would likely provoke an immediate response--most of which were seldom pleasant, and many times could prove fatal.

All of these dynamics present, in my view, a very different kind of mind-set. The mind-set and daily living experience of peoples living in medieval ages, the Dark Ages, and in ancient times, is hugely different from the mind-set of people presented in most game books and campaigns. I suppose that kind of huge distinction can make for a very different influence and experience in the campaign world. Or at least it should, I would think. Am I making sense? What do you think, friends?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I agree with you the realm between supernatural and mundane wasn't so clearly defined as one might think; honestly in part because human lives were at the whims of the fortunes more than we can ever imagine now. Even now we have horror stories/movies of safe & mundane places (i.e. Schools) becoming unsafe & fantastical largely due to real world events or legends that challenge those assumptions (Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth or Toho's Gakkou no Kaidan comes to mind).

Although a major difference between most fantasy settings and real life history is that those fantastical/risky elements in everyday life often have a physical and, to a degree, an understandable/interactable form than their real-life counter parts. This allows us put a clearer boundary between the realms than history in my opinion.

EDIT: To add, one setting that kinda hits close to this theme, although not completely, is AEG's (and later FFG's) Legend of the Five Rings, as the base influence of that setting is Japanese Shinto and Buddhist philosophy; what to the modern West would consider an 'animist' worldview (everything is alive and has a level of agency). The kami of that world is incorporating everything, indeed even inside the human body like blood, and must be respected and can be negotiated to do something for mortals. Failure to respect might invoke a supernatural's wrath, and gameplay-wise this is reflected in series of parameters such as honour, glory, and disadvantages.

Quote from: SHARK on June 26, 2021, 02:25:25 PM
Through the years, there often seems to be a convention embraced by campaign milieu's of a human centric baseline, but also the "Civilization vs Wilderness"; a relatively safe, pleasant urbanized world that is normal vs the shadowy, savage "Other" that includes mystery, magic, and monsters.

That's because D&D Fantasy is based on the mythology of the Old West, and more generally is a Modernist Fantasy of rational Civilisation vs supernatural Barbarism/Wilderness. In recent decades you often get Wilderness Good vs Civilisation Bad, but that's just an inversion of the standard trope.

Quote from: SHARK on June 26, 2021, 02:25:25 PM
Greetings!

Through the years, there often seems to be a convention embraced by campaign milieu's of a human centric baseline, but also the "Civilization vs Wilderness"; a relatively safe, pleasant urbanized world that is normal vs the shadowy, savage "Other" that includes mystery, magic, and monsters.

However, in my own studies of ancient history, folklore, and mythology--presumably which of course forms much of the foundations of traditional gaming--there seems to be a distinctly different interpretation amongst the people concerning how they viewed and experienced the larger world. in a nutshell, there is no such neat dividing lines, there is no safety, and there never was any to begin with. The mythological worlds certainly of the Celts, the Norse, the Germanic tribes, the Baltic peoples, the Slavs--to name a few of the most prominent--were absolutely *FULL of the mysterious, the magical, and the supernatural* on a daily basis. Supernatural nature spirits, strange maidens, gnomes and goblins were believed to be everywhere. The Russian and Slavic mythologies, for example, as well as the Baltic peoples and the Finnish mythology, describes supernatural spirit-creatures living in everything; the rivers, lakes, and streams; the marshes and bogs; the mountains, the forests and fields--even people's houses, barns, and public bathhouses--all had supernatural spirit creatures living in them, and interacting with humans on a regular basis. There were demons, witches, and evil, hungry women lurking in the forest, again, everywhere--to seduce men, enslave them, or slaughter them in fierce savagery.

In so many normal rituals and events--cooking breakfast, doing chores around the house, weaving thread, having babies, and more, all required various actions, rituals, or other interactions with these supernatural creatures. Failure to observe customs and show proper respect, failure to present daily offerings and gifts, would likely provoke an immediate response--most of which were seldom pleasant, and many times could prove fatal.

All of these dynamics present, in my view, a very different kind of mind-set. The mind-set and daily living experience of peoples living in medieval ages, the Dark Ages, and in ancient times, is hugely different from the mind-set of people presented in most game books and campaigns. I suppose that kind of huge distinction can make for a very different influence and experience in the campaign world. Or at least it should, I would think. Am I making sense? What do you think, friends?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Stafford's Glorantha and Barker's Tekumel are the only RPG settings that really nail a more accurate historical belief system about the supernatural.  Well, Pundit's stuff does too, also Aquelarre.  I suspect there's some other European RPGs that do so also because they know the actual Grimm's Fairy Tales not the Disney version.

Quote from: S'mon on June 27, 2021, 06:16:41 AM

Quote from: SHARK on June 26, 2021, 02:25:25 PM
Through the years, there often seems to be a convention embraced by campaign milieu's of a human centric baseline, but also the "Civilization vs Wilderness"; a relatively safe, pleasant urbanized world that is normal vs the shadowy, savage "Other" that includes mystery, magic, and monsters.

That's because D&D Fantasy is based on the mythology of the Old West, and more generally is a Modernist Fantasy of rational Civilisation vs supernatural Barbarism/Wilderness. In recent decades you often get Wilderness Good vs Civilisation Bad, but that's just an inversion of the standard trope.

Howard was doing Wilderness Good vs. Civilization Bad way before recent decades.

Quote from: S'mon on June 27, 2021, 06:16:41 AM

Quote from: SHARK on June 26, 2021, 02:25:25 PM
Through the years, there often seems to be a convention embraced by campaign milieu's of a human centric baseline, but also the "Civilization vs Wilderness"; a relatively safe, pleasant urbanized world that is normal vs the shadowy, savage "Other" that includes mystery, magic, and monsters.

That's because D&D Fantasy is based on the mythology of the Old West, and more generally is a Modernist Fantasy of rational Civilisation vs supernatural Barbarism/Wilderness. In recent decades you often get Wilderness Good vs Civilisation Bad, but that's just an inversion of the standard trope.

Greetings!

Hey my friend! Yeah, I had forgotten how much the Old West influences D&D!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I agree that in historical beliefs, magic and the fantastic did not stay in the wilds or even out of the house.  However for modern people playing a game, the separation is useful in a couple of ways.  1)  Constant exposure to the fantastic makes it less fantastic.  A sojourn in mundanity restores the impact of the fantastic.  2)  It's useful to have a place of safety for characters, logistically, psychologically, and tactically, and a mundane area provides that.  And 3) constantly exercising one's suspension of disbelief takes energy and is wearing, providing a mundane area allows players to relax somewhat mentally and still play their characters,

Similarly I dislike the way many RPG settings describe polytheistic religions as being highly structured, with various gods strictly boxed into a particular sphere.

In my Sundaland setting I'm not particularly interested in describing an in depth pantheon because my assumption is that every river, mountain, city-state, ethnic group etc. has a variety of gods and spirits that are worshipped / appeased.

And it's not the case that people only follow their own gods, they opportunistically interact with any and all of them as the situation calls for.

Quote from: SHARK on June 28, 2021, 03:22:10 PM

Quote from: S'mon on June 27, 2021, 06:16:41 AM

Quote from: SHARK on June 26, 2021, 02:25:25 PM
Through the years, there often seems to be a convention embraced by campaign milieu's of a human centric baseline, but also the "Civilization vs Wilderness"; a relatively safe, pleasant urbanized world that is normal vs the shadowy, savage "Other" that includes mystery, magic, and monsters.

That's because D&D Fantasy is based on the mythology of the Old West, and more generally is a Modernist Fantasy of rational Civilisation vs supernatural Barbarism/Wilderness. In recent decades you often get Wilderness Good vs Civilisation Bad, but that's just an inversion of the standard trope.

Greetings!

Hey my friend! Yeah, I had forgotten how much the Old West influences D&D!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Not just that, but also the pulp fiction genre in general that came afterward. Poul Anderson, H.P. Lovecraft, Robert E. Howard, Clark Ashton Smith, etc.

It's very... Americana? Like, if you tried writing an essay then you could probably draw convincing parallels between D&D's structure and that of The Wizard of Oz in terms of Americana influences.

Quote from: S'mon on June 27, 2021, 06:16:41 AMThat's because D&D Fantasy is based on the mythology of the Old West, and more generally is a Modernist Fantasy of rational Civilisation vs supernatural Barbarism/Wilderness. In recent decades you often get Wilderness Good vs Civilisation Bad, but that's just an inversion of the standard trope.

That also fits with the 'noble savage' trope, which predates the Old West.

The Old West though is perfect for modern fantasy, because civilization for the most part, has features that allow women and children to be relatively adventuresome, and yet enjoy the trappings of civilization and (if not begrudging) tolerance. But even that is at risk with Pundit's Fantasy Seattle.

In addition to Glorantha (see my avatar!), where everyone has access to a god, and gods' runes can bless everything from a sharper blade to a more bountiful harvest, there is the fairly obscure JadeClaw, where not only is everything tied to the Mandate of Heaven, but upsets in the proper order (an excess of the Confucian Vices) can lead to an infestation of supernatural Vermin -- too much greed leads to an infestation of Toad(s), too much vanity leads to a Viper (or a nest of them), and so on. The only way to permanently defeat the vermin is to restore the balance:  You can kill the vermin directly if you want, but the only way to rid yourself of the infestation is to restore the proper order in the affected area.

Quote from: Mishihari on June 28, 2021, 06:04:18 PM
I agree that in historical beliefs, magic and the fantastic did not stay in the wilds or even out of the house.  However for modern people playing a game, the separation is useful in a couple of ways.  1)  Constant exposure to the fantastic makes it less fantastic.  A sojourn in mundanity restores the impact of the fantastic.  2)  It's useful to have a place of safety for characters, logistically, psychologically, and tactically, and a mundane area provides that.  And 3) constantly exercising one's suspension of disbelief takes energy and is wearing, providing a mundane area allows players to relax somewhat mentally and still play their characters,

Greetings!

You make some good points, my friend! I have seen it unfold in the campaign, too. The players often really do need some place they can retreat to that is relatively safe, secure, normal, and even mundane and boring! *laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK