Quote from: Grognard GM on March 11, 2024, 11:06:57 AM
Embracing, eh?

Greetings!

*Laughing* Good one, Grognard GM!

Yeah, fuck that game. I don't care how popular it is. It's WOKE. So, they can fucking burn.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Spinachcat on March 11, 2024, 07:05:41 PM
I'm a long time Gamma World 1e GM and the base choices for PCs is to play a Pure Human, a Mutant Human or a Mutant Animal. Various versions added Mutated Plants as PCs and robots/androids.

The big question with Mutant Animal PCs - aka animals with human intelligence and usually human-like hands - was always how much Animal vs Man are you?

Most players run all non-human PCs as humans wearing a costume. This isn't a dig. It's completely understandable. They're players, not actors. I've noticed kids actually do mutant animals better than adults.

As a GM or game designer, there needs to be some level of explanation of the Animal-aspects of each races culture. Palladium Fantasy did a decent job with the Wolfen race and subraces - in PF, the wolf-men are becoming the Roman empire of the world so they're a lovely group to deal with.

I'm not saying every GM needs to write a treatise, but players deserve a half-page about their non-human species...and I say a half-page because that's also the max reading / memory ability of most players.

Of course, today I question even having Mutant Animals or Half-Animal races in a RPG because I don't want to deal with some freakjob player acting out his furry fantasies at the table.

Greetings!

*Laughing* "Some freakjob player acting out his furry fantasies at the table." Ahh, my gawd. Just the visuals are terrible. How do these degenerates get accepted at people's game tables? Why are they not ruthlessly mocked, and shunned?

Good commentary too though on questioning how much Man vs How much Animal are you? Sliding that spectrum along either way brings substantially different play dynamics.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 11, 2024, 10:08:04 PM
It doesn't matter if the animal races (or any race for that matter) is borderline "human in a skin suit" or completely alien.  Either way, it needs something in the rules to reinforce whatever the race is about.

I've got two animal-like races in my setting, a short cat-like humanoid and a taller wolf-like humanoid.  Each one has a few hooks, just like the elf, dwarf, and other races.  And not merely an attribute adjustment.  Mine is fairly muted, because I'm closer to the "human in a skin suit" side--on purpose, but the differences are still strong enough that the players feel it.  For example, in a game where perception and "save" bonuses are difficult to get, the cat race is quite quick and incredible at climbing and avoiding falls, while the wolf race has some sizable bonuses to smell and hearing perception. With a pack mentality, the wolves have a morale bonus, too.  (And my elves really are strong at magic at the expense of combat and the dwarves really are notably tougher than everyone else.) 

The problem with recent D&D is not merely the huge amount of races (and classes/feats/spells/etc.).  It's not merely the blandness of them, either.  It's the combination of a huge list of bland options that don't have any kind of meaningful affect on how they get played.  It's all skin suit and no human (or elf or dwarf or anything else) left.

Greetings!

Yeah, Steven Mitchell, I agree, my friend. There needs to be some mechanical and other aspects that make playing an animal-race meaningful, and distinctive from playing a human.

And yeah, so many of WOTC's supplementary material is so bland. Lots of it, giving an illusion of exciting choices, but closer inspection reveals that most of it is pretty uninspiring.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Mishihari on March 12, 2024, 05:21:00 PM
A society that can cope with this and function looks very different than anything human.

Greetings!

*BOOM* That's razor sharp, Mishihari!

I admit, in my own development of different cultures and races, in isolation, they all seem awesome and cool and interesting!

In the larger, GM mode, though, I think, well, what happens when groups of the Elephant people live amongst humans? Then you start seeing some really large issues that can be surprisingly difficult to resolve. Then, you keep going, well, what if this community over here makes some super-huge efforts to accept them, and embrace them? It is those changes, in that process, that can make you say, whoa! WTF? *Laughing*

That's also why I have always assumed that in many areas of my Thandor world, hatred, slavery, fear, war, blood, and just ordinary prejudice and beatings are pretty normal and standard. Lots of different races and cultures are *not* going to be all Kumbaya and sweet together. They are going to have lots of conflict, and such conflict may certainly have some stupid elements to it, but much of the animus and hatred will also likely be based upon very real problems and differences that cannot simply be wished away, because somehow envisioning everyone being sweet and tolerant is more comfortable.

Of course, some races and cultures will have higher chances of having a smoother and more compatible social relationship between communities--like one of my favourite races in my Thandor world, the Wolf-Humanoid Urrgan. But many others? Yeah, I expect lots of difficulties, struggles, and conflict. All of that is also quite apart from any layers you further add, like Alignment and Religion. The racial and cultural considerations alone can be potentially enormous.

In the back of my mind, too, as a side note, that central element is also why I increasingly grew contemptuous of Forgotten Realms campaign assumptions. There is so much racial love-fests going on, it's just dripping with sugar. It made me rage in frustration. *Laughing*

But yes, cycling back, when considering these deeper aspects, assuming even solid progress and acceptance, well, then what? The resulting society, as you zero in on, really takes on a new shape and form that is distinctly *Not Human* That can be disturbing for Players, but also us, the GM! *Laughing* I also admit though, it has balls. It is fearless and bold, you know? Bold, strong, colourful, creative, and genuine. I like that. I think embracing such elements in a campaign can be very fun, and provide new imagination experiences that really are different from run-of-the-mill safe campaigns.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on March 14, 2024, 02:02:20 AM

Quote from: Grognard GM on March 11, 2024, 11:06:57 AM
Embracing, eh?

Greetings!

*Laughing* Good one, Grognard GM!

Yeah, fuck that game. I don't care how popular it is. It's WOKE. So, they can fucking burn.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Speaking of... World of Darkness fandom is full of degenerates arguing that the 5th edition's removal of bestiality, serial rape, deformed incest babies, etc. from the werewolves needs to be reversed. What the fuck?! What is wrong with these people?! I couldn't make up this shit if I tried.

Jesus H. Christ, I hate that fandom. I wish there were other games about urban fantasy, werewolves, etc. But this industry has a really stupid first mover advantage. If you weren't already established by the 90s, then you cannot get any foothold.

Quote from: SHARK on March 14, 2024, 02:07:43 AM
Good commentary too though on questioning how much Man vs How much Animal are you? Sliding that spectrum along either way brings substantially different play dynamics.

Of course it's good commentary! I wrote it!

In general, if a race is a PC playable race, it UNFORTUNATELY needs to be more human with a culture that meshes more easily with the dominant campaign culture. AKA, most players want to play nice with each other at the table. They might be okay with minor table conflicts (aka elves and dwarfs insulting each other), but playing an Alien who is Too Alien makes them separate from their fellow players.

The GM however can go hog wild with NPC animal races.

In the Gamma World clone / theft that I'm writing, my conceit is that Player Mutant Animals are usually outcasts from their tribes who prefer the company and culture of humans so they don't exhibit the more animalistic behaviors you would find among the tribes who live far from humans.

From what I read many think humans are beyond instincts...

This isn't always true, if ever.

Take the tolerance for degeneracy, it's found mostly among those who feel less repulsion for B.O. and other filth, once they like it they rationalize post-hoc why.

Same is true in the inverse, we who find degeneracy abhorrent use post-hoc rationalization as to why we are correct much of the time.

Chris had a good insight about Christianity changing the rules, go to India to that tribe that eats human brains, the leftards will tell you it's just as moral as not doing so, because they lack the revulsion mechanism, the less able someone is to feel revulsion (inherently, not learned like the trash man) the more likely they are to embrace all manner of degeneracy and corruption.

Now, speaking of "elevated" beasts, regardless of how intelligent they are their instincts will still be present, and their societies will be shaped by those instincts since the dawn of time.

But that's only true if it's evolution at work, magic could throw a monkey wrench into all my theorizing.

For a really insightful take on these things you need to go read The Island of Dr Moreau.

Quote from: Spinachcat on March 16, 2024, 02:03:37 AM

Quote from: SHARK on March 14, 2024, 02:07:43 AM
Good commentary too though on questioning how much Man vs How much Animal are you? Sliding that spectrum along either way brings substantially different play dynamics.

Of course it's good commentary! I wrote it!

In general, if a race is a PC playable race, it UNFORTUNATELY needs to be more human with a culture that meshes more easily with the dominant campaign culture. AKA, most players want to play nice with each other at the table. They might be okay with minor table conflicts (aka elves and dwarfs insulting each other), but playing an Alien who is Too Alien makes them separate from their fellow players.

The GM however can go hog wild with NPC animal races.

In the Gamma World clone / theft that I'm writing, my conceit is that Player Mutant Animals are usually outcasts from their tribes who prefer the company and culture of humans so they don't exhibit the more animalistic behaviors you would find among the tribes who live far from humans.

Greetings!

*LAUGHING* Yes, very true, brother! You always have good commentary!

I agree, there is something of a delicate balance there, with animal races. The animal race needs to be "human" enough so that a player can identify with them. Having *too much* animal makes the race too weird, and the player cannot embrace a character of such a race. I have seen this in my campaigns, where virtually no one wants to play any member of an insect race. I have several different insect-like races. All are colourful, interesting, and intriguing in their own ways. However, portraying an insect-humanoid is very difficult. Reptilians are kind of alien, but still have some connections. Mammals, of course, are very popular. Fish-races, and Insect-races are very different though.

As you say though, of course, for NPC's, the GM can go hog wild! *Laughing*

For Player-facing races though, definitely, extra care and thought must go into really making whatever kind of such race more "human" like, to the degree that it is relatable. Otherwise, they shall remain as NPC races.

That also gets with my theory about gamer's hypocrisy about diversity, and diverse worlds. The fact is, only a relatively small minority of players really want that. Most, by a huge margin, really do want and prefer more of the same, choices that are firmly rooted within their comfort zones.

For my Thandor world, I offer many diverse choices, as options, or at least potentials, though I have a core group of races that are most popular, and usually selected from. I'm ok with that, really, at the end of the day. It is what it is, you know?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I have a few animal races in my own setting, with just humans and dwarves as the only traditional races. (I didn't want to add dwarves, but that's another story).  The badger folk are tribal and only group together for festivals and when dragons decide to raid. Their cousins, the wolverine folk, are different. During the summer, when the land is ice free, they spread out and start families/work homesteads with the elderly and non-wolverine folk to oversee the cities. When the winter sets in, they all congregate in their cities and hunker down.

There are a few others but those are the two I think that are relevant to the topic.

Quote from: Shalashashka on March 17, 2024, 06:35:46 PM
I have a few animal races in my own setting, with just humans and dwarves as the only traditional races. (I didn't want to add dwarves, but that's another story).  The badger folk are tribal and only group together for festivals and when dragons decide to raid. Their cousins, the wolverine folk, are different. During the summer, when the land is ice free, they spread out and start families/work homesteads with the elderly and non-wolverine folk to oversee the cities. When the winter sets in, they all congregate in their cities and hunker down.

There are a few others but those are the two I think that are relevant to the topic.

Greetings!

Badger people, and Wolverine people, huh? Interesting race selections there!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I'm always weary of including animal races for players because it seems to become a slippery slope. The only exception being a world setting where it is the norm and logically explained like Palladium After the Bomb.

Quote from: SHARK on March 12, 2024, 11:30:26 PM
Greetings!

Here are some brief notes that I created for the Yheddu. The Yheddu are a humanoid race of Frog-People that exist in my world of Thandor. Within the notes are commentary and prompts describing many of the political, religious, and social challenges that routinely face the Yheddu. These kinds of challenges combine to create enormous economic challenges for Yheddu in most areas of urban life, and even rural life. Still, despite the challenges involved, I think that the Yheddu race is pretty interesting as a Character option. Even is Player selections of Yheddu is less likely, the Yheddu make fantastic NPC's. I also like the dynamic of providing the basis for a different kind of cultural recipe than the more traditional Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes, and Halflings. Not to say that those other cultures cannot also exist alongside the Yheddu--within Thandor, they do so, in whatever local environment that they are appropriate. The weird coloured skin, the bizarre cultural behaviors, all of that--plus the visual of a humanoid frog--I think provides an element of humour and comedy in a subtle manner to the campaign as a whole. I think while the Yheddu serve as a somewhat comical race, the character types that can be rolled up easily embrace both comedic presentations and opportunities, as well as more serious, dramatic, and heroic themes.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Yheddu Race

*snip

That is one hell of a race (and the write up) you got there Shark.  *CHEERS*

Though, I am a bit disappointed I didn't see something like "the reason the Yheddu are often forced to the very margins of humanoid settlements is simple.  During mating season, the males have a tendency, in the middle of the night,  to stand at the their front door, bare chested, and bellow at the top of their lungs, a throaty holler.  They do this to attract whatever female will listen......".

As others have said, introducing animal based races is very tricky.  A GM runs the risk of turning a well crafted world into a joke at best, and a train wreck at worst.  I think it takes a lot of finese from the GM to walk that fine line between making a race animal enough to be interesting and human enough for players to think about playing it.  But part of that GM skill set is knowing his players, and what they will buy into.

If a GM has that group of great players, man, the sky is the limit.

Ag.

*Sorry, took a bit to reply, work and crap and I don't believe in offering a cheers with my wobbly pop unless I'm actually cheersing with a wobbly pop

I gave a little thought to writing animal races and had a few ideas.

Beastmen Totems
Under this idea, there are various tribes of humans who use magic to bind themselves to an animal totem, causing their bodies to reflect the features of their totem. This could be represented with any kind of totemistic barbarian class.

Polymorphic Beastmen
Under this option, Beastmen are a polymorphic species. The animal aspect of a beastman isn't determined by the aspect of his parents. It might be random or semi-random at birth and/or he might have to find or choose it as part of a rite of passage.

These options allows you to have beastmen without needing to build an entire tribe for every single animal species.

Quote from: SHARK on March 11, 2024, 07:31:40 AM
Humans, of course, can be very adaptable. It seemed to me that while human communities *could* choose to accommodate non-human, animal-like races, many human communities simply would not. Absolutely not.

I'd always thought they would have a separate foreign town like the Portuguese in Nagasaki.

Quote from: aganauton on March 24, 2024, 10:16:41 AM

Quote from: SHARK on March 12, 2024, 11:30:26 PM
Greetings!

Here are some brief notes that I created for the Yheddu. The Yheddu are a humanoid race of Frog-People that exist in my world of Thandor. Within the notes are commentary and prompts describing many of the political, religious, and social challenges that routinely face the Yheddu. These kinds of challenges combine to create enormous economic challenges for Yheddu in most areas of urban life, and even rural life. Still, despite the challenges involved, I think that the Yheddu race is pretty interesting as a Character option. Even is Player selections of Yheddu is less likely, the Yheddu make fantastic NPC's. I also like the dynamic of providing the basis for a different kind of cultural recipe than the more traditional Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes, and Halflings. Not to say that those other cultures cannot also exist alongside the Yheddu--within Thandor, they do so, in whatever local environment that they are appropriate. The weird coloured skin, the bizarre cultural behaviors, all of that--plus the visual of a humanoid frog--I think provides an element of humour and comedy in a subtle manner to the campaign as a whole. I think while the Yheddu serve as a somewhat comical race, the character types that can be rolled up easily embrace both comedic presentations and opportunities, as well as more serious, dramatic, and heroic themes.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Yheddu Race

*snip

That is one hell of a race (and the write up) you got there Shark.  *CHEERS*

Though, I am a bit disappointed I didn't see something like "the reason the Yheddu are often forced to the very margins of humanoid settlements is simple.  During mating season, the males have a tendency, in the middle of the night,  to stand at the their front door, bare chested, and bellow at the top of their lungs, a throaty holler.  They do this to attract whatever female will listen......".

As others have said, introducing animal based races is very tricky.  A GM runs the risk of turning a well crafted world into a joke at best, and a train wreck at worst.  I think it takes a lot of finese from the GM to walk that fine line between making a race animal enough to be interesting and human enough for players to think about playing it.  But part of that GM skill set is knowing his players, and what they will buy into.

If a GM has that group of great players, man, the sky is the limit.

Ag.

*Sorry, took a bit to reply, work and crap and I don't believe in offering a cheers with my wobbly pop unless I'm actually cheersing with a wobbly pop

Greetings!

*Laughing* Thank you, Aganauton! Yes, I am glad that you like the Yheddu. I think they are pretty interesting, and fun. They also provide some very different cultural and social dynamics than the more typical fantasy humanoid races.

Certainly, the male Yheddu often do seemingly weird things like that! Isn't that hilarious? I love that! Male Yheddu half-naked yelling at the top of their lungs, making great noises to attract female Yheddu nearby to mate with. Of course, many female Yheddu are sure to be impressed by the male Yheddu's singing skills, and performance skills! *Laughing* Yeah, that's a good reason to mate with someone! For us as Humans it seems totally bizarre, and even foolish--but for a Yheddu, with that reptilian and amphibian instinct going for them--it makes perfect sense for them. The Yheddu would never even question such behavior, you know? Questioning such behavior for the Yheddu simply would not compute. Yheddu view such expressions as natural and wholesome as breathing.

This kind of thing really shines the light on the impact of instinct, and embracing a combination of instinctual behaviours with embraced cultural values. Yheddu females are instinctually appreciative to listening to the male Yheddu sing crazy loud songs in the middle of the night, prancing about and flexing. Showing off their strength and masculine virtues. Female Yheddu LOVE these displays. And certainly, such displays and rituals are a cherished aspect of Yheddu mating rituals. Non-Yheddu in that sense, do not need to understand it, or approve. In any event, the Yheddu cannot help what they admire, and what they are attracted to. Such attraction triggers are deeply imbedded within them.

For us, wow, you know? As GM's, these things are an endless supply of drama and laughs. Can you imagine how well-to-do Human "Karens" would react to all of this?

*THEN* imagine the Human kids sneaking out at night to go and hang out with their Yheddu friends, while they watch and absorb all these activities going on?

The frequent singing, the strutting and lewd dancing, the music, the sexual orgies embraced, the debauchery that is celebrated. Even more so amongst the younger Yheddu. Just imagine the constant state of agitation and moral panic many Human families and neighborhoods would be in, living amongst or very close to Yheddu neighborhoods. *Laughing* The drama and social opportunities for NPC's, but also for the Players involved somehow in this environment, is off the charts.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK