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Author Topic: Confessions of an old school gamer: I don't like Dungeon Crawls anymore.  (Read 11158 times)

estar

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Confessions of an old school gamer: I don't like Dungeon Crawls anymore.
« Reply #135 on: June 28, 2017, 09:03:28 AM »
Quote from: Bren;971862
A part? Sure. As big a part? Didn't seem to be the case. Take your example. Pavis was a city. The Big Rubble was the ruined part of the former city where the dungeon stuff was. Pavis was full of city locations and urban intrigue. The Rubble was full of ruins, dungeons, trolls, and some really weird stuff. And outside of Pavis was all of Prax which had supplements of its own -- although those included a tower with a literal dungeon and a cave complex or two.

The various anecdotes of the development of Runequest highlight that Stafford ran a roleplaying heavy campaign in Glorantha and Perrin ran a more D&Dish style campaign focused on Pavis and the Big Rubble. Of course when it came to publishing stuff it going to be a blend so Pavis has a lot of roleplaying elements, and Dragon Pass has various "dungeons" to explore for example the Rainbow Caves of Apple Lane.

I am relating this because there was lots of reasons that people played Runequest 2e back in the day. While there was lot of support for the roleplaying side, you have to keep in mind that the Runequest rules were a merger of Stafford's ideas behind the Glorantha setting and Perrin's SCA combat experience. And promoted as as having a rich campaign setting AND a more "realistic" combat system.

This is why for much of the late 70s and early 80s Runequest was perhaps the 2nd most popular fantasy RPG behind D&D. It appealed multiple types of players.

Quote from: Bren;971862
Griffin Mountain was published before The Big Rubble
Big Rubble in part is a compilation of earlier released products including Balastor's Barrack as you mention. Apple Lane is about a dungeon crawl and a combat encounter that could be straight out of D&D 4e. As you stated Snakepipe Hollow is pretty much a sprawling dungeon.

Again Glorantha attracted the roleplayers but dungeon crawling were very much part the Runequest campaign I knew about in my neck of the woods.

tenbones

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Confessions of an old school gamer: I don't like Dungeon Crawls anymore.
« Reply #136 on: June 28, 2017, 09:18:16 AM »
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;971820
Add in ignoring morale and ignoring NPC reaction possibilities and you have the basis for virtually every complaint about dungeons.

In other words, a shitty dungeon run in a shitty way is shitty.

Oh I remember some of the "good ol' days" of those kind of games. I would emerge like a giant umber-colored bog-beast, covered in corn and peanuts. It only made me stronger. I washed off and dove back in. I survived the Bad Dungeoncrawl Wars.

And thus, I'm the man I am today.

Bren

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Confessions of an old school gamer: I don't like Dungeon Crawls anymore.
« Reply #137 on: June 28, 2017, 07:57:00 PM »
Quote from: estar;971965
Nothing here I particularly disagree with. I ran Runequest back in the day and I'm well aware of the antecedents, so I'm just going to assume you're directing this post at people in general rather than me in particular. :)
« Last Edit: June 28, 2017, 07:59:45 PM by Bren »
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Confessions of an old school gamer: I don't like Dungeon Crawls anymore.
« Reply #138 on: July 01, 2017, 04:56:23 PM »
You can only do so many years of dungeon crawling before most dungeons become routines. And the cure for that usually isn't megadungeons (or negadungeons).  The cure is to switch around setting, making adventuring locales different, putting more of a political or social focus on the games, and then, once in a while, bringing back a standard dungeon when people aren't bored to death of them.

That's what made Dark Albion such a successful campaign.
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The Exploited.

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Confessions of an old school gamer: I don't like Dungeon Crawls anymore.
« Reply #139 on: July 01, 2017, 09:18:42 PM »
Quote from: RPGPundit;972552
You can only do so many years of dungeon crawling before most dungeons become routines. And the cure for that usually isn't megadungeons (or negadungeons).  The cure is to switch around setting, making adventuring locales different, putting more of a political or social focus on the games, and then, once in a while, bringing back a standard dungeon when people aren't bored to death of them.

That's what made Dark Albion such a successful campaign.

Badda Bing! Said it better than I could...

The point about going back to a dungeon once in a while is spot on. Because at that stage, they would be a novelty again and seem fresh. Unlike the predictable 'day in day out' affair of the 80s.
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Voros
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Confessions of an old school gamer: I don't like Dungeon Crawls anymore.
« Reply #140 on: July 02, 2017, 12:26:10 AM »
No, that's too reasonable. There MUST be a objectively WRONG way and a RIGHT way to play.

S'mon

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Confessions of an old school gamer: I don't like Dungeon Crawls anymore.
« Reply #141 on: July 02, 2017, 05:04:36 AM »
I like the campaign dungeon as the always-there default activity and occasional quest hub. It makes it a reliable resource to ensure a game can always happen. But there definitely needs to be tons of other stuff going on that the players can do if they want.

Telarus

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Confessions of an old school gamer: I don't like Dungeon Crawls anymore.
« Reply #142 on: July 02, 2017, 01:23:50 PM »
Quote from: S'mon;972637
I like the campaign dungeon as the always-there default activity and occasional quest hub. It makes it a reliable resource to ensure a game can always happen. But there definitely needs to be tons of other stuff going on that the players can do if they want.

I have seen this used quite effectively, and it seems to be the default mode of play for the really early stuff (Blackmoor Castle Dungeon, Greyhawk, etc). The open campaign table-style of play (and the modern "Wilderlands-style" that formalizes some of this) helps there.

But the other thing that I have seen make this really work are NPC Adventurer Parties. I remember in one large dungeon we ran into a locked wooden door that some-one had modified a view-slot into. It was a party of elven mages and fighters who had been entering the dungeon once a month and had secured a "long rest room" that only they had they key for, about 3-4 turns (@ full speed not exlporation speed) into the first level - right nearby the 2nd level stairs. They were uber paranoid, as they had to re-clear the first level each time they cam back (evil cultists, and spontaneously generating goblinoids from "the black pits" were a feature of the dungeon). Our party worked out a deal with them to trade mapping information by leaving notes for each other, and we left a bag with 10 GP in the room in front of their camp-room as a show of good faith (they still never even opened the door while we were there). That type of stuff is GOLD for role-playing in the dungeon. I didn't get to continue that campaign, but I always wanted to find out what faction of elves they were with (gods were they paranoid) and make a more formal alliance against the goblins.

Or, and I almost pulled this complete arc off against some players while I GM'd Earthdawn: have a "rival" adventuring group that shows up every once in a while and competes for the adventure's treasure/goals/etc. Not enemies, just another party that has slightly different specialties, so maybe they get to the macguffin before the player do. Then, while the players are off following their own thread in the sandbox, have a rumor arrive that their rivals have been COMPLETELY wiped out while attempting to tackle the local megadungeon. If that doesn't set a hook to go back and re-explore that dungeon, then a week or so later, have one of the rival's come back as a form of undead and attack the player's party (trying to steal something specific, or kidnap some-one they have a link to, etc). Make sure the undead NPC is identified by others in the act. "Wait?! I thought she was DEAD?!?!"
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 01:27:03 PM by Telarus »

S'mon

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« Reply #143 on: July 02, 2017, 06:40:00 PM »
Quote from: Telarus;972679
I have seen this used quite effectively, and it seems to be the default mode of play for the really early stuff (Blackmoor Castle Dungeon, Greyhawk, etc). The open campaign table-style of play (and the modern "Wilderlands-style" that formalizes some of this) helps there.

Yeah, I've been using Caverns of Thracia & Dyson's Delve together in my Wilderlands game - either alone is too small but together they provided a suitable campaign dungeon for several years of play. Now though Dyson's Delve has been pretty heavily Delved I should probably bring in another one, Stonehell maybe...

Dumarest

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Confessions of an old school gamer: I don't like Dungeon Crawls anymore.
« Reply #144 on: July 03, 2017, 12:04:00 AM »
Quote from: The Exploited.;972582
Badda Bing! Said it better than I could...

The point about going back to a dungeon once in a while is spot on. Because at that stage, they would be a novelty again and seem fresh. Unlike the predictable 'day in day out' affair of the 80s.


Even in the '80s my friends and I never did much spelunking and dungeoneering. So for me a dungeon would actually be the novelty. I've always played wrong. :p

Voros
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« Reply #145 on: July 03, 2017, 12:06:33 AM »
HERETIC! Burn the Witch!!

To me Greyhawk was always about the City campaign.

Elfdart

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Confessions of an old school gamer: I don't like Dungeon Crawls anymore.
« Reply #146 on: July 03, 2017, 12:07:34 AM »
I have no problem with dungeon crawls but I do think too much emphasis is placed on them. Finding out where the dungeon is, getting there and getting back, as well as the consequences are every bit as important but in most published adventures (and quite a few homemade ones), they're given short shrift.
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Dumarest

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Confessions of an old school gamer: I don't like Dungeon Crawls anymore.
« Reply #147 on: July 03, 2017, 12:13:25 AM »
Quote from: Voros;972725
HERETIC! Burn the Witch!!

To me Greyhawk was always about the City campaign.

Haven't read or played Greyhawk, but that sounds more like what we did. We spent most of our time in one city or another with forays into the wilderness when we had a reason to venture out there. Most "dungeons" were natural cave complexes or ruins of temples or cities or castles. One memorable dungeon was a sort of grotto. There weren't really and Wacky Funhouses Built By Mad Wizards. But we still had a lot of fun.

The Exploited.

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Confessions of an old school gamer: I don't like Dungeon Crawls anymore.
« Reply #148 on: July 03, 2017, 08:56:24 AM »
Quote from: Dumarest;972721
Even in the '80s my friends and I never did much spelunking and dungeoneering. So for me a dungeon would actually be the novelty. I've always played wrong. :p

I think a couple of us have been playing it wrong too!

Bitchin'! :)
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Dumarest

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Confessions of an old school gamer: I don't like Dungeon Crawls anymore.
« Reply #149 on: July 03, 2017, 11:14:27 AM »
Quote from: The Exploited.;972784
I think a couple of us have been playing it wrong too!

Bitchin'! :)

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