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Author Topic: Conceptually Tweeking Shadowrun to taste  (Read 2310 times)

Shrieking Banshee

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Conceptually Tweeking Shadowrun to taste
« on: May 19, 2022, 07:40:59 PM »
I have a love/hate relationship with Shadowrun in all its aspects; this especially includes its lore. Its potential has always been great, but in practice its always felt frustrating (to me). This isn’t a modern problem or a lore change issue. Even reading older lore stuff from 1e, I felt Shadowrun could never decide if it wanted to be tan trench coat or purple mohawk. There always seemed to be this streak of unrealized rebellion in the universe. Shadowrunner is a cool term, and the artwork (especially the older artwork) implies a level of care-free mayhem and anarchic chaos that the setting never really thought about how it would deliver:
‘You’re a badass who doesn’t live by the rule of the megacorporations!...Except you pretty much work for them, they have plot protection powers, and your scum, they have all the best stuff and equipment, and the setting revolves around the actions of borderline godlike beings, and never Shadowrunner trash. They are also completely immune to any and all persecution but they need you as tentatively disposable assets for some reason’.
If Shadowrunners where called ‘Scumrunner’ or ‘Muck-Men’ or something else to imply low status and disposability, it would better imply the role that Shadowrunners have within the setting when not in a videogame or not going against writers favorites.
So I was thinking about how I would tweak Shadowrun to be more full ‘purple mohawk’ in subtle, and not so subtle ways.
Subtle:
1.   The State of the world is pseudo-anarchic. Corporate feudalism isn’t a state of betterment (even for the corpos), but of collapse. It does grant the especially power hungry people the ability to boss others around more, but so much resources are wasted in power play games, that as a whole even mega corporations are weaker then the “Pre-Fall” state of the world. The key core, is that with the collapse of a united social belief in some sort of unity, everybody falls back into tribal conflicts. Which takes me to the next point:
2.   The Biggest rivals to corpos are (gimmicky) gangs. Large scale governments sort of exist, but in a massively fragmented and weakened state. Militarized gangs with a mixture of radicalized populace and disenfranchised ex-military/ militarized police have control of the streets (sort of like a more extreme version of mexicos gangs). A gang is unlikely to have the national or international reach of a corpo, but a gang is more likely to have stronger control over territory in its city or sprawl. Large shootouts between authorities is a common occurrence in the streets. Shipments of whatever goods are often highjacked and re-sold or re-purposed and then used by the gangers to extract concessions from the corpos. And vice versa.
3.   The lack of a real culture of respect at corpos means that retention of upper tier talent is very weak. This is especially true for security forces that often have to do the corpos dirty work. As a result its more profitable to be an independent contractor, in the similar principle as a pirate during the age of sail. You can work for the corpos, the gangs, remnant power structures before the fall, individual people and agendas or just work for yourself and steal corpo crap and re-sell it on the black market. Loose organizations exist for some Shadowrunner groups for this reason due to the weakness of central law organisms.
4.   The fall of centralized power means corporate power is less powerful and watchful outside of its own borders. What happens if somebody does a breach of contract and runs into another corpo. How do you punish them? Ask for them back? Tell the police? Organize an expensive retrieval squad? In place of observation nets at every street corner you have tangles of partly maintained surveillance equipment controlled by different people. With the fall of central trading everything is much more expensive as resources are mostly locked behind perpetual conflict.
a.   This means you can generally perform most heists without a mask unless the corpo would absolutely use resources to try to get it back within a short period of time.
Not So subtle:
1.   The FEV virus only directly killed like 10% of the population. But this indirectly massacred billions. 50+ish percent. Broken supply lines and starvation killed much more people.
2.   Many metropolises are necropolises haunted by ghosts. With FEV as contagious and airborne, concentrated population centers that didn’t evacuate on time just died in massive amounts. The depth of the agony creates mass hauntings. For this reason places like new York have not been possible to reclaim fully or even at all. For some reason the ghosts also somehow stabilize the areas, preventing it from simply instantly crumbling from disrepair. So trying to explore literal ghost cities for loot is a thing.
3.   Magic has allowed human society to survive. Quickened spells and such allows for things like infinite energy, or increased crop yields. Its not just good for medicine or killing people.
4.   Lots of areas have been reclaimed by magical effects or aggressive magical wildlife. If calling the exterminator requires they grab a rifle, staying in a place becomes more then its worth.
5.   As a result, new denser mega-housing projects have been constructed in magically weaker zones.

Bare in mind if you like Shadowrun as it is, enjoy: this is more me thinking out loud.

Omega

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Re: Conceptually Tweeking Shadowrun to taste
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2022, 07:57:42 PM »
I learned long ago to completely disconnect the art from the game. Because with annoying frequency the damn artists seem to not give a fuck and are just doing whatever. Or the art director couldnt direct their way out of a wet paper bag. Looking right at you White Wolf Gamma World!

Disconnect the art and Shadowrun is alot grimmer place. Even when people are sounding upbeat half the time its talking about something horrible happening. Or new ways to make something horrible happen. Good example is the Comet book that introduces the new changeling effect. Its upbeat one page and bleak the next, and somewhere in between after that and so on.

Then theres the novels which paint a different picture of the world as well.

Part of the problem is that the setting itself is not one homogeneous darkness. And that is a good thing really. It is perfectly possible to get out from under the shadows of the megacorps and have some fun. How long that fun will last is anyones guess.

So where the PCs are can have a big impact on the tone.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Conceptually Tweeking Shadowrun to taste
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2022, 08:48:02 PM »
So where the PCs are can have a big impact on the tone.
The PCs cannot have a large impact on Shadowrun because its demi-gods and Corporations are the writers actual pets. They are its Drizzt. So they don't want your annoying PC messing up what they have going. They will spend books detailing data that the PCs don't interact with, and doesn't really interact with them. "Well what do the Shadowrunners do in this?" is number 357 in priority.

The setting is by and large incongrous and doesn't stick together. My best Shadowrun experiences had been the videogame, and my best Cyberpunk experience was Huntdown. So im thinking out loud about its manic energy.

Spinachcat

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Re: Conceptually Tweeking Shadowrun to taste
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2022, 09:24:20 PM »
I like the idea of a Shadowrun setting true to its art.

This is a good thread with many interesting ideas.

Rob Necronomicon

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Re: Conceptually Tweeking Shadowrun to taste
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2022, 09:36:46 PM »
I'd remove all the fantasy elements. The idea of orcs with trenchcoats is just too off the mark for my taste.

Like the rest of the vibe but I'd play it darker.
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VisionStorm

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Re: Conceptually Tweeking Shadowrun to taste
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2022, 11:56:20 PM »
‘You’re a badass who doesn’t live by the rule of the megacorporations!...Except you pretty much work for them, they have plot protection powers, and your scum, they have all the best stuff and equipment, and the setting revolves around the actions of borderline godlike beings, and never Shadowrunner trash. They are also completely immune to any and all persecution but they need you as tentatively disposable assets for some reason’.

IDK, runners don't necessarily work for the corporations. They could be hired by all kinds of people with money who'd prefer runners do the job, cuz they don't want the corporations going after them if shit hits the fan. Then they'll probably sell whatever the PCs steal in the black market or to another corporation. And even when those people do work for other corporations they'd rather have runners be the ones stealing corporate secrets from the competition, cuz if someone has the power to go after a corporation it's other corporations. But getting runners involved gives them plausible deniability.

I haven't had the chance to run much Shadowrun, but if I were to run a game I wouldn't care about the metaplot and just do whatever I want working from the setting's basic premise. If that goes against something the writers had for one of the novels or adventures I'd never bother buying anyway, to bad.

I'd remove all the fantasy elements.

Wouldn't that just be Cyberpunk at that point? The whole point of Shadowrun is to have an orc street shaman in a trenchcoat calling spirits in an alley while a dwarf decker hacks for access to whatever building they're breaking into and a cybered up human street samurai watches out, weapons ready in case someone's coming.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2022, 11:58:36 PM by VisionStorm »

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Conceptually Tweeking Shadowrun to taste
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2022, 12:14:49 AM »
I wouldn't care about the metaplot and just do whatever I want working from the setting's basic premise.
What I mean is even outside of the metaplot, having scoured the source materials for hooks, its overwhelmingly boring or focused on corpo/god activity. You don't necacarily have to work for the corporations, but you don't necacarily have to go mad encountering eldritch horrors in Call of Cathulu. You could file taxes instead.

What Im saying is that the setting is at war with its own central premise. And always has been. Its always wanted to be a crazy, rebellious frantic adventure, but in practice is a very downbeat if you actually use the setting materials (and even ignore the metaplot).
Its not like 'Well there are a few adventures/sourcebooks that prop up megacorpos and don't put any PC hooks'. Its almost ALL of them. Because it takes itself stonefacedly serious. Its overwhelmingly interested in its own upper tier inner workings, and not interested at all in giving your PCs ways of influencing it. Just 'Glance' into it.

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But getting runners involved gives them plausible deniability.
Its overwhelmingly implausible. Corpos can get away with making a deathtrap that kills thousands of people, and suffer no longterm ramifications, with their names PLASTERED on the building. If they can get away with that, they should absolutely not care if a person attempting to rob 'Evil-Co' has a 'Bastards Incorporated' employee badge, or just had money routed to them and work freelance.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2022, 12:19:41 AM by Shrieking Banshee »

Stephen Tannhauser

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Re: Conceptually Tweeking Shadowrun to taste
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2022, 02:28:19 AM »
I have a love/hate relationship with Shadowrun in all its aspects; this especially includes its lore. Its potential has always been great, but in practice its always felt frustrating (to me). This isn’t a modern problem or a lore change issue. Even reading older lore stuff from 1e, I felt Shadowrun could never decide if it wanted to be tan trench coat or purple mohawk.

That's a good way to phrase it and an excellent point. The thematic point of the noir-cum-cyberpunk genre is the contrast between what is ostensibly an advanced, peaceful and enlightened culture and the corruption running under the surface, a corruption resulting largely just from people being people. Throwing in the high fantasy elements up-ends both the systems and the nature of the corruption -- it's a lot harder to be cynical and resigned to achieving some minuscule good at best, if there are elves running around with the songs of the ancient wild in their heart and magicians who can heal wounds and demonstrate miracles.

One of the biggest decisions about running a Shadowrun campaign should be deciding, is this fantasy with cyberpunk trappings, or is it cyberpunk with fantasy trappings?

Quote
So I was thinking about how I would tweak Shadowrun to be more full ‘purple mohawk’ in subtle, and not so subtle ways.
Subtle:
1.   The State of the world is pseudo-anarchic. Corporate feudalism isn’t a state of betterment (even for the corpos), but of collapse. ...everybody falls back into tribal conflicts.
2.   The Biggest rivals to corpos are (gimmicky) gangs. Large scale governments sort of exist, but in a massively fragmented and weakened state. Militarized gangs with a mixture of radicalized populace and disenfranchised ex-military/ militarized police have control of the streets (sort of like a more extreme version of mexicos gangs).

The primary question a culture like this would have to answer is, how is the industrial manufacturing base maintained?  Failed states of this sort tend not to be able to endure for very long unless they can gain support from external powers with stabler economies.  It's hard to have the cyberpunk adventures of Matrix-running in a city prone to rolling blackouts on an unpredictable basis.

Quote
3.   The lack of a real culture of respect at corpos means that retention of upper tier talent is very weak. This is especially true for security forces that often have to do the corpos dirty work. As a result its more profitable to be an independent contractor, in the similar principle as a pirate during the age of sail.

As above, the thing about the Golden Age of Piracy was that it was only viable for a brief period of time (about 30 years) and required a stable base of legitimate economic activity from established powers to parasite upon. If it really is more profitable for top talent to be freelancers rather than bound by contract, the corp contracts have to offer benefits that are worth sacrificing that profit and freedom for in order to stay stable and viable. (AI memory backup, allowing for "resurrection" in a cloned body a la Altered Carbon, might be one such benefit, and would explain why shadowrunners keep running into the same foes even if they do kill them.)
 
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4.   The fall of centralized power means corporate power is less powerful and watchful outside of its own borders. What happens if somebody does a breach of contract and runs into another corpo. How do you punish them? Ask for them back? Tell the police? Organize an expensive retrieval squad?

Well, one thought that occurs to me is: What if this is a world that has already been taken over by massively powerful AIs? The whole point of noir as a sub rosa corruption is that there does have to be a remote, but real, threat of destruction from whatever systems run the nation if the bad guys get too visible in their crime. If central human governments have become too weak, maybe there's a coalition of AIs who will join forces to contract private security on any shadowrunner who becomes too visible or destructive.  (In fact, that is why the corps need the shadowrunners; the AIs enforce their primary contracts in a way that only zeroed-out private contractors with no licit Matrix presence can avoid.)

Quote
Not So subtle:
1.   The FEV virus only directly killed like 10% of the population. But this indirectly massacred billions. 50+ish percent. Broken supply lines and starvation killed much more people.
2.   Many metropolises are necropolises haunted by ghosts. With FEV as contagious and airborne, concentrated population centers that didn’t evacuate on time just died in massive amounts. The depth of the agony creates mass hauntings. For this reason places like new York have not been possible to reclaim fully or even at all. For some reason the ghosts also somehow stabilize the areas, preventing it from simply instantly crumbling from disrepair. So trying to explore literal ghost cities for loot is a thing.
3.   Magic has allowed human society to survive. Quickened spells and such allows for things like infinite energy, or increased crop yields. Its not just good for medicine or killing people.
4.   Lots of areas have been reclaimed by magical effects or aggressive magical wildlife. If calling the exterminator requires they grab a rifle, staying in a place becomes more then its worth.
5.   As a result, new denser mega-housing projects have been constructed in magically weaker zones.

That makes for a really interesting setting, but I would have to say I think it has completely parted ways with anything resembling Shadowrun at this point. Again, if you don't have a mostly stable and widespread culture that looks like it's thriving and prospering for most ordinary folks, you can't have the elements of noirish cynicism and punkish rebellion that are central to the game, because there's not really an established system to be cynical about or rebellious against.
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jeff37923

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Re: Conceptually Tweeking Shadowrun to taste
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2022, 04:45:24 AM »
I tried tweaking Shadowrun to my taste when it came out and I found that it was easier and less time consuming to just use Cyberpunk or Cyberpunk 2020.
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Godsmonkey

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Re: Conceptually Tweeking Shadowrun to taste
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2022, 07:06:17 AM »
Like most, I too have a love/hate relationship with Shadowrun. Mine however is mostly with the rules. I played through the first three editions, and in my younger days, I managed through the rules but could see the huge warts.

However, for me back then, the metaplot while fairly ubiquitous, was more background fluff for me. It seasoned the meal, but didn't overwhelm the palate.

However, I revisited Shadowrun a couple years ago, picking up "Anarchy" (Which I almost instantly houseruled to death to make it playable, before switching the Savage Worlds) and realized the metaplot had become this unbearably disjointed mismatch of flavors. Roe and mashmallow fluff of gaming.

So I basically ditched all of the meta plot, and created my own. The same mega corps are there, many of the old clubs are there. Racial tension is still there. Gangs still roam in the barrens and so on. I stripped it back down to it's 1980s roots.

As for the shadowrunners, they tend to work less for the corps, and more for individuals within the corps. Usually they are mid tier exec who use the runners to expand their power in the corporation, or to perform tasks that would be best kept quiet.

Also, since the runners tend to live in the seedier side of the sprawl, they sometimes tend to become reluctant protectors and get involved in low life local situations.

By keeping it smaller, the mega corps are still there, but more as background flavor. My metaplot looks little like the official one. So much so, that I will likely just ditch it all and use a few tropes for a different version of the game.

Chris24601

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Re: Conceptually Tweeking Shadowrun to taste
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2022, 08:12:29 AM »
I’d say the biggest problem is that there’s a metaplot in the first place. It’s a game, not a novel.

As such, it needs a setting/starting cast and maybe an inciting incident… then it’s up to the GM and player choices what happens next. If the PCs decide to overthrow a particular mega-corp by gathering tons of allies and slaying the dragon behind the curtain… that’s the story of that campaign. Your next campaign can either treat that as table canon or reset for the next campaign.

Godsmonkey

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Re: Conceptually Tweeking Shadowrun to taste
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2022, 08:22:33 AM »
I’d say the biggest problem is that there’s a metaplot in the first place. It’s a game, not a novel.

As such, it needs a setting/starting cast and maybe an inciting incident… then it’s up to the GM and player choices what happens next. If the PCs decide to overthrow a particular mega-corp by gathering tons of allies and slaying the dragon behind the curtain… that’s the story of that campaign. Your next campaign can either treat that as table canon or reset for the next campaign.

IMO the metaplot was the boon and bane of the game in some ways. In the early days, the Shadowrun novels helped to establish the world. This increased the games exposure and popularity, much like Dragonlance did for D&D. However, as time went by, and every edition moved the timeline forward, the metaplot became too bloated. Now its a convoluted mess.


Ghostmaker

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Re: Conceptually Tweeking Shadowrun to taste
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2022, 09:55:03 AM »
I'd trim back the ubiquity of 'you can't fight the megacorporations' bullshit.

I like SR, but damn, sometimes it feels like the designers got married to 'status quo is god'. The closest they've come to upending that was Dunkelzahn's death (and subsequent will).

I would put out a sourcebook giving ideas on 'How to let your runners flip the table', figuratively speaking, regarding the current metaplot. Blowing up Z-O, for example.


Godsmonkey

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Re: Conceptually Tweeking Shadowrun to taste
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2022, 10:01:01 AM »
I'd trim back the ubiquity of 'you can't fight the megacorporations' bullshit.

I like SR, but damn, sometimes it feels like the designers got married to 'status quo is god'. The closest they've come to upending that was Dunkelzahn's death (and subsequent will).

I would put out a sourcebook giving ideas on 'How to let your runners flip the table', figuratively speaking, regarding the current metaplot. Blowing up Z-O, for example.

Is it my inner Grognard or did the Shadowrun metaplot feel like it went off the rails when FASA lost control of it?

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Conceptually Tweeking Shadowrun to taste
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2022, 10:01:38 AM »
The thematic point of the noir-cum-cyberpunk genre is the contrast between what is ostensibly an advanced, peaceful and enlightened culture and the corruption running under the surface, a corruption resulting largely just from people being people. Throwing in the high fantasy elements up-ends both the systems and the nature of the corruption -- it's a lot harder to be cynical and resigned to achieving some minuscule good at best, if there are elves running around with the songs of the ancient wild in their heart and magicians who can heal wounds and demonstrate miracles.
I don't think cyberpunk is about the world being fantastic for the normies with "some" internal corruption. Maybe its in way more other cyberpunk literature, but I always thought it was about a shitty state of the world with fallen standards for the value of life. All the dystopic elements of today with machinery replacing life, but ratcheted up to dystopic levels. Things being good with evil below the surface I didn't think fit.
I don't think the fantasy harms it in any way. In Shadowrun magic has been a 99.99999% bad thing for the world anyway. Again its more interested in prattling on about all the untold number and variety evil god spirits/diseases/cults/creatures about to wreck your day, moreso then any magical wonder.

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That makes for a really interesting setting, but I would have to say I think it has completely parted ways with anything resembling Shadowrun at this point.
Possibly. For a while, Shadowrun made me think I hated cyberpunk. But I realized I don't. There are tons of cyberpunky settings and stories I really like: Shadowrun is just not a good setting outside of its catch of 'Cyberpunk but with magic'.

I especially like the videogame 'Huntdown', which is ostensibly what Shadowrun was suposed to be about, it just tones itself better. Playing Huntdown felt like a setting that would be cool to roleplay in. So I was thinking of a way to add more Huntdown to Shadowrun.
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IMO the metaplot was the boon and bane of the game in some ways. In the early days, the Shadowrun novels helped to establish the world.

Metaplots are always a bane. It established the world: as being moved by NPCs you will never interact with or play. It was always a setup in the wrong direction. I have never seen a metaplot actually improve a state of a game world.

I'd trim back the ubiquity of 'you can't fight the megacorporations' bullshit.

It would be less annoying if the writers focused on anything but the workings of megacorpos. An interesting detailing of just a city and what you can do in it to make life better in a tangible way, would be fine even if your not going against a megacorp. But the writers are not interested in small scale stories like that, and the ones they do are super boring. Shadowrun is like a D&D campaign where your expected to play 5th level heroes but all the setting books are about the actions of level 60 gods.

Is it my inner Grognard or did the Shadowrun metaplot feel like it went off the rails when FASA lost control of it?

Its your inner grognard. I intentionally went back to older materials (as a guy introduced with new stuff), and it was ALWAYS a problem.