Yeah, that's right! In the never-ending march of Progress, Conan is next: the Conan RPG has been brought in line (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/modiphius/robert-e-howards-conan-roleplaying-game/posts/3014286) with "a cultural consultant's recommendations that created a more rounded and well-developed representation".
Quote
UPDATE #145
Conan the Wanderer Edits
Samuel Webb
November 9, 2020
We want to address comments online about the edits to Conan the Wanderer.
We made changes to Conan the Wanderer on a cultural consultant's recommendations that created a more rounded and well-developed representation of the fictional cultures based on their obviously real South and East Asian counterparts. Word choices were edited throughout for tone, like removing "exotic" and "mysterious" replacing it with a better adjective to describe its people and places, so that players inhabiting eastern characters in their games aren't just a stereotype of strange, unknown people, and placed them at the center of this book. This was an issue for us in the original version, as it often assumed to paint all eastern characters with the same brush, instead of inspiring a sense of rich societies and cultures.
For example, the "Martial Arts" talent tree title was changed to reflect our editorial view, as associated unarmed combat with eastern peoples has a poor tradition of Orientalism within the hobby, when there are counterparts all over the world. Instead they are now called "Unarmed" techniques. The Lotus Road section was edited so as not to over-emphasise it as a drug route because "Chinese drug dealers" is another vicious stereotype used in stories that portray East Asian characters as a threat to the Western world, and is not something we wanted to publish. Lotus was not removed, only the tone of the passage has been changed. Equally, the tone describing the Vendhyan caste system was toned down, so it was not so absolute and all-encompassing as it was portrayed—as is not the case in South Asia—and provided players with a richer, more inspiring write up.
The material is and always has been wholly faithful to Robert E Howard. We're not changing anything about the setting or the world. Not a single word of REH's text has been altered. The only adjustments are being made to the game content itself, or fiction we've derived and extrapolated from his works, particularly the way we discuss and present that material. In discussing these concerns with Cabinet themselves, they confirmed to us that anything new that is published derived from Robert E Howard's work is pastiche, and as such should be fitting for a modern audience. This new version of Wanderer, and all of its changes, was approved by them.
Orientalism, particularly in gaming fiction, has been a trend and trope for many years that has made our East Asian friends within this hobby feel unwelcome and regarded as strange. With these edits, we present a more well-rounded, better developed, and above all inclusive expansion to the Conan roleplaying game.
Finally, it's been noted that the credits for the two authors and editor of the initial version have been removed. This isn't a punishment, it was done so at their request, and we've honoured that. We would have happily published their credits if they had wanted.
I hope all of you guys have been clamouring for "a more well-rounded, better developed, and above all inclusive expansion to the Conan roleplaying game". Clamour no more, for your prayers have been answered!
Why don't they just make Conan a black lesbian and be done with it?
They're going to lose my business if they neuter the seminal barbarian. I have everything in that line so far.... guaranteed the "SOY" crowd hardly plays Conan if at all.
"Martial Arts" is racist now. It's amazing that I can still be surprised by the things that SJWs decide to be offended by.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on November 09, 2020, 02:26:08 PM
"Martial Arts" is racist now. It's amazing that I can still be surprised by the things that SJWs decide to be offended by.
I'm baffled that the Monk character class in D&D hasn't received the screaming banshee Racissssss treatment yet.
It hits all the same talking points that were used to villainize AD&D's Oriental adventures.
I suspect that the reason it has escaped censure is that for the few SJW's who actually play the game - it is one of the favored classes for various snowflake reasons...
IMHO,
We need to do a organized "undercover" operation to see if we can get WOTC to remove the Monk character class from 5e.
We take all the talking points and SJW feels language used to demonize oriental adventures, and turn them around on the Monk. If done with some subtlety we could probably even get many actual SJW's to help take the social media fight to WOTC for us.
Because at this point... Why not.
The monk class is problematic because it implies monks have some sort of "oriental martial arts" training instead of the ability to illuminate Bibles. I am outraged.
How the hell do you make Conan more "inclusive"?
Non-whites allready pretty much dominate the setting.
This entire thing is an exercise on looking for things to be offended by, but none more than this...
QuoteFor example, the "Martial Arts" talent tree title was changed to reflect our editorial view, as associated unarmed combat with eastern peoples has a poor tradition of Orientalism within the hobby, when there are counterparts all over the world. Instead they are now called "Unarmed" techniques.
Why, yes... there is a broad variety of combat styles and techniques--both armed and unarmed--all over the world, not just in eastern countries. And they are all called and fall under the category of:
Martial ArtsThe subject of "Martial Arts" is not just limited to unarmed techniques or Eastern styles, but applies to ALL combat forms. And there're ALL called "Martial Arts", since acronyms like "HEMA" (Historical European MARTIAL ARTS). "Martial Arts" is not even an eastern language term.
You mongoloids.
Quote from: VisionStorm on November 09, 2020, 03:50:35 PMThe subject of "Martial Arts" is not just limited to unarmed techniques or Eastern styles, but applies to ALL combat forms. And there're ALL called "Martial Arts", since acronyms like "HEMA" (Historical European MARTIAL ARTS). "Martial Arts" is not even an eastern language term.
en.chinaculture.org, a website run by the CCP's Ministry of Culture calls it "Chinese Martial Arts". It's clear that the only people offended by this term are white liberals.
Quote from: VisionStorm on November 09, 2020, 03:50:35 PM
The subject of "Martial Arts" is not just limited to unarmed techniques or Eastern styles, but applies to ALL combat forms. And there're ALL called "Martial Arts", since acronyms like "HEMA" (Historical European MARTIAL ARTS). "Martial Arts" is not even an eastern language term.
Isn't that the point of the complaint? I agree with your point here - but that problem is that in practice, almost no one refers to Conan the Barbarian as a "martial arts film" or Errol Flynn as a "martial arts star". For example, in my copy of GURPS Martial Arts (3rd ed), the cover has a yin-yang symbol and there are seven weapon tables: Chinese, Japanese, Ninja, Philippine, Indonesian, Indian, and Korean. So clearly it's not about all combat forms but rather focused on Asian forms.
That said, I'm not familiar with the "Martial Arts" talent tree in the Conan 2d20 system. Does anyone know what was included in that tree originally?
I demand a Cimmerian cultural sensitivity reader. Shouldn't be hard seeing how it's a real fucking place. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea#History)
I've just checked this up because I thought 'martial arts' meant something different (ie had a far broader application).
The following is quoted from wikipedia.
Quote
Martial arts are codified systems and traditions of combat practiced for a number of reasons such as self-defense; military and law enforcement applications; competition; physical, mental, and spiritual development; entertainment; and the preservation of a nation's intangible cultural heritage.[1]
Although the term martial art has become associated with the fighting arts of East Asia it originally referred to the combat systems of Europe as early as the 1550s. The term is derived from Latin and means "arts of Mars", the Roman god of war.[2]
Now I must admit I don't consider wikipedia to be the most accurate source of information, but even they confirm my previous understanding of martial arts to mean any form of combat (including greco-roman wrestling)
So basically we now need to use alternate terms because of the (possible) reader's ignorance!
Enjoy your Soy.
Another game to strike off the list. Money better spent elsewhere. Why invest in the cultural sensitivities of white liberals?
That's the only real culture they care about (which is why they're the actual racists)
Quote from: Jaeger on November 09, 2020, 03:33:19 PMWe need to do a organized "undercover" operation to see if we can get WOTC to remove the Monk character class from 5e.
I LOVE THIS IDEA!!!
Quote from: jhkim on November 09, 2020, 04:45:07 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on November 09, 2020, 03:50:35 PM
The subject of "Martial Arts" is not just limited to unarmed techniques or Eastern styles, but applies to ALL combat forms. And there're ALL called "Martial Arts", since acronyms like "HEMA" (Historical European MARTIAL ARTS). "Martial Arts" is not even an eastern language term.
Isn't that the point of the complaint? I agree with your point here - but that problem is that in practice, almost no one refers to Conan the Barbarian as a "martial arts film" or Errol Flynn as a "martial arts star". For example, in my copy of GURPS Martial Arts (3rd ed), the cover has a yin-yang symbol and there are seven weapon tables: Chinese, Japanese, Ninja, Philippine, Indonesian, Indian, and Korean. So clearly it's not about all combat forms but rather focused on Asian forms.
Unfortunately that's true, and it came about after the term "Martial Arts" became associated with eastern unarmed styles with the influx of Martial Arts films in the 70s, which continued in the 80s and somewhat the 90s.
However, that was at the turn of the last century. We're living in 2020 now. HEMA is all over YouTube. People know about Capoeira, Krav Maga and other non-Eastern martial arts as well. People should know "Martial Arts" extends beyond just eastern styles of unarmed combat by now, and even if they don't they're still in error and need to be corrected, not change the meaning of the term "Martial Arts" cuz some people are idiots.
This was a pet peeve of mine even in the 90s (the decade I started playing), and I would frequently correct people when it came up during play or character creation, and point out that swinging a sword itself was a martial art.
Hush it with your huwhite supremacy VisionStorm! Next you'll be saying MMA fans might know martial arts goes beyond chopsocky flicks.
The ONLY way to heal the harm done to our hobby is to ban the monk class!!!
WotC must act now! :O
If you don't like the product, then don't buy it. Simple as that.
I'm perfectly happy with my collection of OGL Conan.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley on November 09, 2020, 07:42:05 PM
If you don't like the product, then don't buy it. Simple as that.
Dude, you are are missing the whole point of this thread.
Before we proceed to not buy it, we must ruthlessly mock its soyness for all the world to see.
It is our natural right, given to us by our creator.
Quote from: Spinachcat on November 09, 2020, 07:07:02 PM
Hush it with your huwhite supremacy VisionStorm! Next you'll be saying MMA fans might know martial arts goes beyond chopsocky flicks.
The ONLY way to heal the harm done to our hobby is to ban the monk class!!!
WotC must act now! :O
I can not stand that class. I always imagine David Carradine speaking in that pothead tone attempting to sound philosophical.
Quote from: Jaeger on November 09, 2020, 07:59:04 PM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley on November 09, 2020, 07:42:05 PM
If you don't like the product, then don't buy it. Simple as that.
Dude, you are are missing the whole point of this thread.
Before we proceed to not buy it, we must ruthlessly mock its soyness for all the world to see.
It is our natural right, given to us by our creator.
Greetings!
Yeah! I don't think it's about even critiquing a particular product, which Darrin Kelly seems to miss entirely. It isn't about not just liking a game book because of Mechanics A or B, or style of Orange Rhinos.
It's a particular change to a beloved and popular product for particular political and ideological reasons--and pandering. It's openly bowing down to the SJW fucktards, and that is never a good thing to do, for our hobby, or anyone else.
Highlighting and critiquing such a shit product and company that does so is necessary to create pushback against such fucking morons, so in hopes that such fuckery doesn't spread and continue.
Darrin Kelly doesn't seem to understand that.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Darrin Kelley on November 09, 2020, 07:42:05 PM
If you don't like the product, then don't buy it. Simple as that.
I'm perfectly happy with my collection of OGL Conan.
Yes but what about the people that supported the Kickstarter before it decided to do this?
Are we meant to say 'Hey this isn't what we signed up for, give us a refund'?
Quote from: tenbones on November 09, 2020, 05:50:09 PM
Enjoy your Soy.
Another game to strike off the list. Money better spent elsewhere. Why invest in the cultural sensitivities of white liberals?
That's the only real culture they care about (which is why they're the actual racists)
Agreed and seconded. Too bad I don't like LUG Star Trek as much as I used too. I would buy an updated version of that in a heartbeat. I was and am not that much of 2D20 fan yet when the Klingons..fucking Klingons of all the races suddenly became inclusive and diverse with their culture well I expected Conan to be next.
Quote from: VisionStorm on November 09, 2020, 06:44:20 PM
Quote from: jhkim on November 09, 2020, 04:45:07 PM
Isn't that the point of the complaint? I agree with your point here - but that problem is that in practice, almost no one refers to Conan the Barbarian as a "martial arts film" or Errol Flynn as a "martial arts star". For example, in my copy of GURPS Martial Arts (3rd ed), the cover has a yin-yang symbol and there are seven weapon tables: Chinese, Japanese, Ninja, Philippine, Indonesian, Indian, and Korean. So clearly it's not about all combat forms but rather focused on Asian forms.
Unfortunately that's true, and it came about after the term "Martial Arts" became associated with eastern unarmed styles with the influx of Martial Arts films in the 70s, which continued in the 80s and somewhat the 90s.
However, that was at the turn of the last century. We're living in 2020 now. HEMA is all over YouTube. People know about Capoeira, Krav Maga and other non-Eastern martial arts as well. People should know "Martial Arts" extends beyond just eastern styles of unarmed combat by now, and even if they don't they're still in error and need to be corrected, not change the meaning of the term "Martial Arts" cuz some people are idiots.
This was a pet peeve of mine even in the 90s (the decade I started playing), and I would frequently correct people when it came up during play or character creation, and point out that swinging a sword itself was a martial art.
I think we're just agreeing here. I had exactly the same pet peeve.
As regards Conan - it sounds to me like Conan 2d20 originally had a talent tree called "martial arts" that implied something more like Asian styles, rather than just general combat skills. However, I only have the quickstart rules which doesn't have that tree - so I'm not sure what the deal is.
Quote from: ponta1010 on November 09, 2020, 08:12:50 PMYes but what about the people that supported the Kickstarter before it decided to do this?
Are we meant to say 'Hey this isn't what we signed up for, give us a refund'?
That is actually a really good question. If I back a Conan Kickstarter, I fully expect plenty of wanton carousing, whoring, random acts of violence, racism, etc., not some watered down bullshit. If I had backed this (I didn't because I greatly dislike the previous books they've done), I would indeed ask for a refund. My knee-jerk reaction is the creators would try to admonish me/you/whomever for being bigoted, whatever...
Quote from: Brad on November 09, 2020, 08:21:45 PM
Quote from: ponta1010 on November 09, 2020, 08:12:50 PMYes but what about the people that supported the Kickstarter before it decided to do this?
Are we meant to say 'Hey this isn't what we signed up for, give us a refund'?
That is actually a really good question. If I back a Conan Kickstarter, I fully expect plenty of wanton carousing, whoring, random acts of violence, racism, etc., not some watered down bullshit. If I had backed this (I didn't because I greatly dislike the previous books they've done), I would indeed ask for a refund. My knee-jerk reaction is the creators would try to admonish me/you/whomever for being bigoted, whatever...
Greetings!
Brad! Can you go into some detailed commentary about what some of their previous books were like--and what you didn't like about them?
I love Conan stuff. The thought of companies making Conan into some SJW jello fest just grinds my teeth.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: ponta1010 on November 09, 2020, 08:12:50 PM
Yes but what about the people that supported the Kickstarter before it decided to do this?
Are we meant to say 'Hey this isn't what we signed up for, give us a refund'?
Given my own personal history with Kickstarters? I'd say it is a crap-shoot as to what the product is that you would get. Which is precisely why I don't back Kickstarters anymore.
You are usually dealing with individuals or companies who have no established track record of products to back them up.
And don't get me started on established RPG companies that use Kickstarter to push all the risk on backers. Instead of taking an actual risk on a product themselves.
Quote from: SHARK on November 09, 2020, 08:43:32 PM
Greetings!
Brad! Can you go into some detailed commentary about what some of their previous books were like--and what you didn't like about them?
I love Conan stuff. The thought of companies making Conan into some SJW jello fest just grinds my teeth.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I'd rather not get into the weeds with the Modiphius books; my own personal issues with them might not match up to anyone else's. To be as succinct as possible, they added a narrative mechanic called "Doom points" or whatever it is that I greatly dislike. And the 2d20 system is sort of lame, in my opinion. It's one of those situations where they had a house system they shoehorned into every licensed property they had, regardless if it fit the genre or not. The books themselves are really nice and slick with a lot of information, so I use them for background material, but if they're going to start removing that stuff, WTF is the point of buying them? I dunno...maybe I will give a revised version of this post later, but honestly GURPS Conan is still the best actual resource for Conan gaming because it tries to stick to the books and only the books, just wish it was only REH stuff and none of the other authors.
Kickstarter backers did get access to the unaltered pdf of CtWanderer (my copy still has the Martial Arts tree named as such). Unfortunately, the printed version will only be of the altered variety.
I don't care for the 2d20 system, but I had been buying the books because they seemed like decent Conan reference material for other systems. I'll be damned if they get another penny of my money.
If I want to play Conan I would probably run Jason Vey's OD&D hack for it.
The only product from Modiphius I ever bought was a game called Monsters & Magic. Which is a decent enough OSR game.
But I do not agree with any established game company trying to fund an entire RPG line through Kickstarter. It shows to me that they have no faith in either the license or the customers. Not enough to assume any actual risk for the product line.
I feel the same way about Onyx Path. I think they are scumbags for pushing all the risk onto the backs of their customers.
Tons of KS backers are demanding refunds, including me. I spent over $1,000 on this game at the Mount Yishma highest pledge level.
I told them "At this point I think I'd like a refund of the $1,000 I spent on backing this bait and switch scam of a Kickstarter and sham of a game. I paid for the tagline of being authentic to REH and the original Conan stories and you have now breached my trust. I do not want SJW virtue-signaling and soy boy politics in my Conan game. Leave your politics out of gaming products."
There are tons of people pissed off in the comments for the backers and many are demanding refunds.
Modiphius set themselves up for this with all the quasi-academic wank about having "Conan scholars" on the payroll and fidelity to the source.
I didn't understand this in the first place because Howard's setting doesn't seem anything special to me - just barely-disguised ripoffs of real-world cultures. I cannot get excited about this kind of thing, not because I care about grievance-mongering rent-seekers who pretend to be offended by them, but because it's unimaginative and to me, boring.
That said, if you are going to buy into a pretence it is all so wonderful and special and meaningful, and then turn around and trash the supposed deep meaningfulness, you should expect people who pre-paid to get annoyed.
I'll be sitting back with the popcorn watching them get caught between the two stools of frozen bullshit they have made for themselves.
Quote from: jhkim on November 09, 2020, 08:20:33 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on November 09, 2020, 06:44:20 PM
Quote from: jhkim on November 09, 2020, 04:45:07 PM
Isn't that the point of the complaint? I agree with your point here - but that problem is that in practice, almost no one refers to Conan the Barbarian as a "martial arts film" or Errol Flynn as a "martial arts star". For example, in my copy of GURPS Martial Arts (3rd ed), the cover has a yin-yang symbol and there are seven weapon tables: Chinese, Japanese, Ninja, Philippine, Indonesian, Indian, and Korean. So clearly it's not about all combat forms but rather focused on Asian forms.
Unfortunately that's true, and it came about after the term "Martial Arts" became associated with eastern unarmed styles with the influx of Martial Arts films in the 70s, which continued in the 80s and somewhat the 90s.
However, that was at the turn of the last century. We're living in 2020 now. HEMA is all over YouTube. People know about Capoeira, Krav Maga and other non-Eastern martial arts as well. People should know "Martial Arts" extends beyond just eastern styles of unarmed combat by now, and even if they don't they're still in error and need to be corrected, not change the meaning of the term "Martial Arts" cuz some people are idiots.
This was a pet peeve of mine even in the 90s (the decade I started playing), and I would frequently correct people when it came up during play or character creation, and point out that swinging a sword itself was a martial art.
I think we're just agreeing here. I had exactly the same pet peeve.
As regards Conan - it sounds to me like Conan 2d20 originally had a talent tree called "martial arts" that implied something more like Asian styles, rather than just general combat skills. However, I only have the quickstart rules which doesn't have that tree - so I'm not sure what the deal is.
Thankfully I still have the original version of the PDF BEFORE the virtue-signaling changes. How does it make any sense to rename this talent trill "Unarmed Talents" when more than one talent in the tree if for melee weapons?
Here ya go:
Here is a good comment from their KS comments:
"As a person who is half Chinese, and therefore being protected by the cultural sensitivity that Modiphius is now embracing, I must say that I am horribly disappointed. I don't read Conan for the woke content. I read it to be entertained. The two tend to not be very compatible.
As far as specifics go, I will say the following
Mysterious, and other terms. The orient is in many ways more secretive and mysterious. After a life spent around Chinese, and decades working with Japanese, one thing that stands out is how much there are two worlds when dealing with east asians. There's the world they show you, especially if you are a round eye, and the reality of things. Why do you think the idea of "Face" can be so divorced from reality? Secrets.
And as for "Unarmed Combat" the idea that martial arts is offensive as a concept is, to be brutally honest. Full Retard. What we call martial arts are not merely combat without weapons. It is tradition. As a child, I was denied proper Kung-fu instruction because I was a half-breed. Not because they didn't want me to know how to fight, but because Kung-fu was Chinese culture, not to be corrupted. It was art. Most demonstrations never involved direct contact even. They were demonstrations of skill and culture, practicing forms and stances, not unarmed combat.
In your sad effort to shine the Virtue Signal, you expose the utter ridiculousness of the whole "woke" movement. "Cultural Consultant" What a joke. Also, will there be an errata to provide us with the preferred pronouns of all characters presented, and will character generation be modified to account for all 1000+ genders? I would hate to mis-gender an NPC prior to the players brutally killing them. That would just be wrong"
Quote from: Batjon on November 09, 2020, 09:50:55 PM
Tons of KS backers are demanding refunds, including me. I spent over $1,000 on this game at the Mount Yishma highest pledge level.
I told them "At this point I think I'd like a refund of the $1,000 I spent on backing this bait and switch scam of a Kickstarter and sham of a game. I paid for the tagline of being authentic to REH and the original Conan stories and you have now breached my trust. I do not want SJW virtue-signaling and soy boy politics in my Conan game. Leave your politics out of gaming products."
There are tons of people pissed off in the comments for the backers and many are demanding refunds.
Good luck to you - but I have to say - a grand is sort of a ridiculous amount of cash to put into a single game, especially before you've seen it. I think I probably gave a bit more than that to Games Workshop over the years, but that was over the course of more than a decade with multiple armies and three different game systems.
That level of Kickstarter support just reminds me of the Star Citizen backers who bought a theoretical digital battle carrier or whatnot. (To be fair - I did buy Star Citizen nearly a decade ago now - but just the base game. I'm an optimist who liked Wing Commander and Freelancer - I'm not crazy.)
It's bemused me for a while that Modiphius both publish Conan (and place such an emphasis on being 'faithful' to Howard) and on being woke.
That's always quite obviously involved some kind of weird mental gymnastics on some level.
Quote from: Batjon on November 09, 2020, 10:08:12 PM
Thankfully I still have the original version of the PDF BEFORE the virtue-signaling changes. How does it make any sense to rename this talent trill "Unarmed Talents" when more than one talent in the tree if for melee weapons?
Thanks, Batjon! So it looks like it is both armed and unarmed, but it definitely has a specifically Asian connection in style and by specifying Vendhya and Khitai (which are Hyboria's India and China). So in the original, "martial arts" is synonymous with "Asian-style martial arts". That's similar to the position of the half-Chinese commenter you quoted.
I agree more with VisionStorm, though.
Quote from: VisionStorm on November 09, 2020, 06:44:20 PM
Unfortunately that's true, and it came about after the term "Martial Arts" became associated with eastern unarmed styles with the influx of Martial Arts films in the 70s, which continued in the 80s and somewhat the 90s.
However, that was at the turn of the last century. We're living in 2020 now. HEMA is all over YouTube. People know about Capoeira, Krav Maga and other non-Eastern martial arts as well. People should know "Martial Arts" extends beyond just eastern styles of unarmed combat by now, and even if they don't they're still in error and need to be corrected, not change the meaning of the term "Martial Arts" cuz some people are idiots.
This was a pet peeve of mine even in the 90s (the decade I started playing), and I would frequently correct people when it came up during play or character creation, and point out that swinging a sword itself was a martial art.
The term "martial arts" shouldn't mean just "Asian martial arts". It's a generic term, and should be inclusive of styles of fighting from Europe, Africa, and the Americas.
There is no way I would drop $1000 on a game line without seeing the contents of those game products before I paid up. That's one of the reasons why I didn't back any of the Modiphius licensed game Kickstarters. The situation stunk like dead fish. No matter how interested in what they had licensed I might have been.
They were all promises and no proof of what people were getting from the outset. Which is an even bigger pie in the sky promise than just single-game Kickstarters. Backing something of that magnitude seems extremely foolhardy to me.
Conan, Star Trek, Infinity are all properties that interest me. But without guarantees on all of the proposed products? No. Just no.
Quote from: Batjon on November 09, 2020, 09:50:55 PM
Tons of KS backers are demanding refunds, including me. I spent over $1,000 on this game at the Mount Yishma highest pledge level.
I told them "At this point I think I'd like a refund of the $1,000 I spent on backing this bait and switch scam of a Kickstarter and sham of a game. I paid for the tagline of being authentic to REH and the original Conan stories and you have now breached my trust. I do not want SJW virtue-signaling and soy boy politics in my Conan game. Leave your politics out of gaming products."
There are tons of people pissed off in the comments for the backers and many are demanding refunds.
Can you keep up updated as to your progress on this please. I only backed at a base level for the pdf's, but did so in part to use the Mophidius edition for reference (and probably play with a non 2d20 system). But if their authenticity is going out the door then I worry that other things will be retro'd into the other pdfs.
Quote from: TJS on November 09, 2020, 10:53:27 PM
It's bemused me for a while that Modiphius both publish Conan (and place such an emphasis on being 'faithful' to Howard) and on being woke.
That's always quite obviously involved some kind of weird mental gymnastics on some level.
The ability to hold two contradictory positions, and believe in both of them, is a prerequisite of leftist thought.
GURPS Conan and D20 Conan are both good for source material, even if you're not into those systems.
Is there an OSR Conan with the serial numbers barely filed off?
Quote from: Spinachcat on November 10, 2020, 03:33:37 AM
GURPS Conan and D20 Conan are both good for source material, even if you're not into those systems.
Is there an OSR Conan with the serial numbers barely filed off?
D20 Conan was actually OGL Conan. It was printed on the spine of the core rulebook of both editions.
I'm sure somebody could make an OSR version quite easily. And it's pretty much my favorite D20 based fantasy game.
Quote from: jhkim on November 09, 2020, 11:06:12 PM
Quote from: Batjon on November 09, 2020, 10:08:12 PM
Thankfully I still have the original version of the PDF BEFORE the virtue-signaling changes. How does it make any sense to rename this talent trill "Unarmed Talents" when more than one talent in the tree if for melee weapons?
Thanks, Batjon! So it looks like it is both armed and unarmed, but it definitely has a specifically Asian connection in style and by specifying Vendhya and Khitai (which are Hyboria's India and China). So in the original, "martial arts" is synonymous with "Asian-style martial arts". That's similar to the position of the half-Chinese commenter you quoted.
I agree more with VisionStorm, though.
Quote from: VisionStorm on November 09, 2020, 06:44:20 PM
Unfortunately that's true, and it came about after the term "Martial Arts" became associated with eastern unarmed styles with the influx of Martial Arts films in the 70s, which continued in the 80s and somewhat the 90s.
However, that was at the turn of the last century. We're living in 2020 now. HEMA is all over YouTube. People know about Capoeira, Krav Maga and other non-Eastern martial arts as well. People should know "Martial Arts" extends beyond just eastern styles of unarmed combat by now, and even if they don't they're still in error and need to be corrected, not change the meaning of the term "Martial Arts" cuz some people are idiots.
This was a pet peeve of mine even in the 90s (the decade I started playing), and I would frequently correct people when it came up during play or character creation, and point out that swinging a sword itself was a martial art.
The term "martial arts" shouldn't mean just "Asian martial arts". It's a generic term, and should be inclusive of styles of fighting from Europe, Africa, and the Americas.
This is the kind of nerdy nitpicking that makes my eyes glaze over. Technically correct, and sucks all the fun out of the room like a miniature black hole of awkwardness.
Quote from: Jaeger on November 10, 2020, 02:04:59 AM
Quote from: TJS on November 09, 2020, 10:53:27 PM
It's bemused me for a while that Modiphius both publish Conan (and place such an emphasis on being 'faithful' to Howard) and on being woke.
That's always quite obviously involved some kind of weird mental gymnastics on some level.
The ability to hold two contradictory positions, and believe in both of them, is a prerequisite of leftist thought.
The expected delivery of the Conan Kickstarter was 2016, so the game line has suffered long delays. I don't think they had decided to go woke back then yet. The only 2d20 game line launched before Conan was Mutant Chronicles, which, by Woke standards, is pretty "insensitive" too.
Quote from: Jaeger on November 10, 2020, 02:04:59 AM
Quote from: TJS on November 09, 2020, 10:53:27 PM
It's bemused me for a while that Modiphius both publish Conan (and place such an emphasis on being 'faithful' to Howard) and on being woke.
That's always quite obviously involved some kind of weird mental gymnastics on some level.
The ability to hold two contradictory positions, and believe in both of them, is a prerequisite of leftist thought.
Quote from: 1984
You are a slow learner, Winston." Said O'Brien gently.
"How can I help it?" he blubbered. How can I help but see what is in front of my eyes? Two and two are four."
"Sometimes, Winston. Sometimes they are five. Sometimes they are three. Sometimes they are all of them at once. You must try harder. It is not easy to become sane.
Quote from: jhkim on November 09, 2020, 11:06:12 PM
Quote from: Batjon on November 09, 2020, 10:08:12 PM
Thankfully I still have the original version of the PDF BEFORE the virtue-signaling changes. How does it make any sense to rename this talent trill "Unarmed Talents" when more than one talent in the tree if for melee weapons?
Thanks, Batjon! So it looks like it is both armed and unarmed, but it definitely has a specifically Asian connection in style and by specifying Vendhya and Khitai (which are Hyboria's India and China). So in the original, "martial arts" is synonymous with "Asian-style martial arts". That's similar to the position of the half-Chinese commenter you quoted.
I agree more with VisionStorm, though.
Quote from: VisionStorm on November 09, 2020, 06:44:20 PM
Unfortunately that's true, and it came about after the term "Martial Arts" became associated with eastern unarmed styles with the influx of Martial Arts films in the 70s, which continued in the 80s and somewhat the 90s.
However, that was at the turn of the last century. We're living in 2020 now. HEMA is all over YouTube. People know about Capoeira, Krav Maga and other non-Eastern martial arts as well. People should know "Martial Arts" extends beyond just eastern styles of unarmed combat by now, and even if they don't they're still in error and need to be corrected, not change the meaning of the term "Martial Arts" cuz some people are idiots.
This was a pet peeve of mine even in the 90s (the decade I started playing), and I would frequently correct people when it came up during play or character creation, and point out that swinging a sword itself was a martial art.
The term "martial arts" shouldn't mean just "Asian martial arts". It's a generic term, and should be inclusive of styles of fighting from Europe, Africa, and the Americas.
Yeah, I can get other people's criticism of how Modiphius handled this and agree with some of their points, but ultimately I think that Martial Arts should not be limited to just "Asian Martial Arts". Even when it comes to some of the mysticism and mystique surrounding martial arts practices, western traditions also had that. The Viking Berserkers were believed to have quasi-magic powers involving spirit animals, like wolves and bears, that granted them unusual abilities and allowed them to enter their rage. There were legendary accounts of Celtic warriors doing quasi-magical stuff as well. These things are not unique to eastern martial arts, its just that eastern cultures managed to preserve their warrior traditions onto modern times, while western warrior traditions fell to the wayside, so are not as prevalent in the public consciousness. And a lot of these martial arts tricks are just biomechanics. It doesn't matter what tradition you practice, if you practice martial arts you're going to be able to figure out some of these maneuvers regardless of origin.
Quote from: VisionStorm on November 09, 2020, 06:44:20 PM
This was a pet peeve of mine even in the 90s (the decade I started playing), and I would frequently correct people when it came up during play or character creation, and point out that swinging a sword itself was a martial art.
Quote from: Spinachcat on November 09, 2020, 07:07:02 PM
Hush it with your huwhite supremacy VisionStorm! Next you'll be saying MMA fans might know martial arts goes beyond chopsocky flicks.
Quote from: jhkim on November 09, 2020, 11:06:12 PM
The term "martial arts" shouldn't mean just "Asian martial arts". It's a generic term, and should be inclusive of styles of fighting from Europe, Africa, and the Americas.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 10, 2020, 04:34:40 AM
This is the kind of nerdy nitpicking that makes my eyes glaze over. Technically correct, and sucks all the fun out of the room like a miniature black hole of awkwardness.
I'm actually more a fan of chop-socky flicks than MMA -- but even so, I think it's obviously wrong to call MMA nerdy, unfun nitpicking. I think MMA and growing beyond just Asian styles has made martial arts more interesting over the last three decades. There's also gotten some more interesting fight choreography in movies once filmmakers realized fight choreography isn't just for chop-socky.
Isn't jeet kun do (Bruce Lee's 'way of the intercepting fist') considered the ancestor for most modern MMA because of its pragmatism?
This feels like a lot of people faffing about because they want to look good for their buddies.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 10, 2020, 11:36:43 AM
Isn't jeet kun do (Bruce Lee's 'way of the intercepting fist') considered the ancestor for most modern MMA because of its pragmatism?
This feels like a lot of people faffing about because they want to look good for their buddies.
Not really. He was the first well known person in the USA to try to get people to divorce themselves from a pure style loyalty and advocate for learning a bit of grappling. But he was an actor, and amazing one at that. His ability to practically apply martial arts (fight) is entirely up in the air. The Gracies were probably the biggest promoters of what has become modern MMA, and as they predate Bruce by a good long ways, I can not give Lee credit for that. He did encourage cross training though, which very, very few people did after he promoted it. So I would say his actual effect and influence was minimal. He was ahead of the times so to speak as to what he said here in the US, but Judo kept dying while Karate kept growing after his book and ideology was widespread.
Funny thing is his number 1 (Dan Inosantos) is probably the most cross trained dude on the planet, he can function with striking, grappling (black belt at least in BJJ), knife fighting and so forth. But again, not as influential as you might think. The UFC and the Gracies, no question are the only reason MMA, and it being all over pop culture are a thing. I think Bruce was smart enough to tell the people the truth, but in his movies he showed them what they wanted to believe.
Modiphius you shower of dumb fucks. There are plenty of Western Martial Arts.
W. E. Fairbairn ring any bells, No?
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 10, 2020, 12:10:19 PM
Modiphius you shower of dumb fucks. There are plenty of Western Martial Arts.
W. E. Fairbairn ring any bells, No?
Tangential question: what happened to Fairbairn's training and trainees after WWII? From everything I can find, Fairbairn's training simply vanished, except for a series of publications from Paladin Press in the 70s and 80s. Or was it subsumed into other training and Fairbairn's influences left unmentioned?
Quote from: RandyB on November 10, 2020, 01:31:06 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 10, 2020, 12:10:19 PM
Modiphius you shower of dumb fucks. There are plenty of Western Martial Arts.
W. E. Fairbairn ring any bells, No?
Tangential question: what happened to Fairbairn's training and trainees after WWII? From everything I can find, Fairbairn's training simply vanished, except for a series of publications from Paladin Press in the 70s and 80s. Or was it subsumed into other training and Fairbairn's influences left unmentioned?
Government officials who make decisions about what soldiers learn is largely based on who is the best salesman. Has about zero to do with the most practical. They were learning kung fu pressure points at one point. Now though, the guys who sold combatives to the army (I know one of the dudes) based heavily on BJJ, KIckboxing, and knife techniques (that they flat out took from Fairbain) were excellent salesmen as well as extremely skilled at practical martial arts. So the answer regarding fairbane is his spirit and many of his techniques (especially around knife techniques) are back in the army, just not under his name necessarily.
oops meant Fairbairn
Quote from: MigRib on November 10, 2020, 04:58:59 AM
Quote from: Jaeger on November 10, 2020, 02:04:59 AM
Quote from: TJS on November 09, 2020, 10:53:27 PM
It's bemused me for a while that Modiphius both publish Conan (and place such an emphasis on being 'faithful' to Howard) and on being woke.
That's always quite obviously involved some kind of weird mental gymnastics on some level.
The ability to hold two contradictory positions, and believe in both of them, is a prerequisite of leftist thought.
The expected delivery of the Conan Kickstarter was 2016, so the game line has suffered long delays. I don't think they had decided to go woke back then yet. The only 2d20 game line launched before Conan was Mutant Chronicles, which, by Woke standards, is pretty "insensitive" too.
It was obviously dissonant when it was released however. Conan stories are full of scantily clad young women who are all overcome by Conan's inherent manliness. It may have been a kind of cynicism on Howard's part (I think there's a lot of cynicism in Conan stories, I feel there often not his best ones, and the best bits are often on the peripheries), but it's part of the stories.
The portrayal of women in Conan 2d20 and it's artwork is somewhat different. I don't think that's a bad thing - and I don't think it's particularly necessary to be faithful to the nature of the Conan stories to run a game in the Hyborian age (And I certainly wouldn't be), but they do make such a big thing about how they're faithful to Howard and to the original stories that it's jarring.
Quote from: TJS on November 10, 2020, 01:57:25 PM
Quote from: MigRib on November 10, 2020, 04:58:59 AM
Quote from: Jaeger on November 10, 2020, 02:04:59 AM
Quote from: TJS on November 09, 2020, 10:53:27 PM
It's bemused me for a while that Modiphius both publish Conan (and place such an emphasis on being 'faithful' to Howard) and on being woke.
That's always quite obviously involved some kind of weird mental gymnastics on some level.
The ability to hold two contradictory positions, and believe in both of them, is a prerequisite of leftist thought.
The expected delivery of the Conan Kickstarter was 2016, so the game line has suffered long delays. I don't think they had decided to go woke back then yet. The only 2d20 game line launched before Conan was Mutant Chronicles, which, by Woke standards, is pretty "insensitive" too.
It was obviously dissonant when it was released however. Conan stories are full of scantily clad young women who are all overcome by Conan's inherent manliness. It may have been a kind of cynicism on Howard's part (I think there's a lot of cynicism in Conan stories, I feel there often not his best ones, and the best bits are often on the peripheries), but it's part of the stories.
The portrayal of women in Conan 2d20 and it's artwork is somewhat different. I don't think that's a bad thing - and I don't think it's particularly necessary to be faithful to the nature of the Conan stories to run a game in the Hyborian age (And I certainly wouldn't be), but they do make such a big thing about how they're faithful to Howard and to the original stories that it's jarring.
Hmmm, that didn't occur to me, but yeah, at the time they were probably on the soft side of political correctness. Dared to make promisses about being faithful to the source material, but not enough to show nipples.
Quote from: oggsmash on November 10, 2020, 01:37:52 PM
Quote from: RandyB on November 10, 2020, 01:31:06 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 10, 2020, 12:10:19 PM
Modiphius you shower of dumb fucks. There are plenty of Western Martial Arts.
W. E. Fairbairn ring any bells, No?
Tangential question: what happened to Fairbairn's training and trainees after WWII? From everything I can find, Fairbairn's training simply vanished, except for a series of publications from Paladin Press in the 70s and 80s. Or was it subsumed into other training and Fairbairn's influences left unmentioned?
Government officials who make decisions about what soldiers learn is largely based on who is the best salesman. Has about zero to do with the most practical. They were learning kung fu pressure points at one point. Now though, the guys who sold combatives to the army (I know one of the dudes) based heavily on BJJ, KIckboxing, and knife techniques (that they flat out took from Fairbain) were excellent salesmen as well as extremely skilled at practical martial arts. So the answer regarding fairbane is his spirit and many of his techniques (especially around knife techniques) are back in the army, just not under his name necessarily.
I share your observations about military training. :)
So by this, Fairbairn himself is
persona non grata, but his training has been "rebranded' and assimilated into others' work. Definitely a strong possibility.
Quote from: RandyB on November 10, 2020, 02:03:13 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on November 10, 2020, 01:37:52 PM
Quote from: RandyB on November 10, 2020, 01:31:06 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 10, 2020, 12:10:19 PM
Modiphius you shower of dumb fucks. There are plenty of Western Martial Arts.
W. E. Fairbairn ring any bells, No?
Tangential question: what happened to Fairbairn's training and trainees after WWII? From everything I can find, Fairbairn's training simply vanished, except for a series of publications from Paladin Press in the 70s and 80s. Or was it subsumed into other training and Fairbairn's influences left unmentioned?
Government officials who make decisions about what soldiers learn is largely based on who is the best salesman. Has about zero to do with the most practical. They were learning kung fu pressure points at one point. Now though, the guys who sold combatives to the army (I know one of the dudes) based heavily on BJJ, KIckboxing, and knife techniques (that they flat out took from Fairbain) were excellent salesmen as well as extremely skilled at practical martial arts. So the answer regarding fairbane is his spirit and many of his techniques (especially around knife techniques) are back in the army, just not under his name necessarily.
I share your observations about military training. :)
So by this, Fairbairn himself is persona non grata, but his training has been "rebranded' and assimilated into others' work. Definitely a strong possibility.
Hey I can tell you it is a 100 percent fact. Like I said I know the guy who cooked up the SoCOM training stuff and was Larsen's less publicly known partner in pitching it to the Army. Other branches all have some version of the combatives they sold, and I know as I said Fairbairns system is the root of their blade work. But branding matters, and judging from the ENORMOUS compensation the fellow I know has gotten from the US Army, I guess it matters a whole lot.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 10, 2020, 12:10:19 PM
Modiphius you shower of dumb fucks. There are plenty of Western Martial Arts.
W. E. Fairbairn ring any bells, No?
Agreed. Game mechanically, it's an interesting question. Originally, they had a talent tree for "martial arts" which is actually for Asian martial arts - with a lot of emphasis on unarmed but also some armed technique. That's wrong, a number of people seem to agree.
One question is, should they:
1) Keep the same talent tree and just rename it "Asian Martial Arts"? Then they could potentially add another talent tree for "European Martial Arts".
2) Instead split it up, and have a "Unarmed Martial Arts" talent tree and add armed techniques into other armed fighting talent trees.
3) Some other option?
Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2020, 02:19:11 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 10, 2020, 12:10:19 PM
Modiphius you shower of dumb fucks. There are plenty of Western Martial Arts.
W. E. Fairbairn ring any bells, No?
Agreed. Game mechanically, it's an interesting question. Originally, they had a talent tree for "martial arts" which is actually for Asian martial arts - with a lot of emphasis on unarmed but also some armed technique. That's wrong, a number of people seem to agree.
One question is, should they:
1) Keep the same talent tree and just rename it "Asian Martial Arts"? Then they could potentially add another talent tree for "European Martial Arts".
2) Instead split it up, and have a "Unarmed Martial Arts" talent tree and add armed techniques into other armed fighting talent trees.
3) Some other option?
just leave it alone because the only people who would have ANY issue with it at all were never going to buy the book in the first place?
Quote from: oggsmash on November 10, 2020, 11:59:43 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 10, 2020, 11:36:43 AM
Isn't jeet kun do (Bruce Lee's 'way of the intercepting fist') considered the ancestor for most modern MMA because of its pragmatism?
This feels like a lot of people faffing about because they want to look good for their buddies.
Not really. He was the first well known person in the USA to try to get people to divorce themselves from a pure style loyalty and advocate for learning a bit of grappling. But he was an actor, and amazing one at that. His ability to practically apply martial arts (fight) is entirely up in the air. The Gracies were probably the biggest promoters of what has become modern MMA, and as they predate Bruce by a good long ways, I can not give Lee credit for that. He did encourage cross training though, which very, very few people did after he promoted it. So I would say his actual effect and influence was minimal. He was ahead of the times so to speak as to what he said here in the US, but Judo kept dying while Karate kept growing after his book and ideology was widespread.
Funny thing is his number 1 (Dan Inosantos) is probably the most cross trained dude on the planet, he can function with striking, grappling (black belt at least in BJJ), knife fighting and so forth. But again, not as influential as you might think. The UFC and the Gracies, no question are the only reason MMA, and it being all over pop culture are a thing. I think Bruce was smart enough to tell the people the truth, but in his movies he showed them what they wanted to believe.
The concept of cross training, breaking fights down in to different ranges, the necessity of having skill in all ranges etc, go back even further than the Gracies. Ancient Greek Pankration was essentially anything goes fighting that was practiced for nearly a 1000 years. Edward Barton Wright combined English Boxing, Savate, Jiu Jitsu, and folk styles of Wrestling back in the late 1800's, his gym had instructors in each art and cross training was considered essential. French self defense exponents were doing the same thing from the late 1800's to the 1910's, combining Savate, Wrestling, and Jiu Jitsu in to a system typically called Defense Dans La Rue.
Hell France had it's "UFC 1" moment in around 1890 or so when a challenge match between a Savate champ and a local Jiu Jitsu instructor ended in a swift take down and arm bar. This sparked a cross training craze, and challenge matches between styles became all the rage. The aforementioned E.B. Wright and many other noted European martial artists of the times took up many public challenges.
Bruce Lee's reputation is mostly due to his silver screen fame. There's really only one account of him fighting, his challenge with Wong Jack Man, that has substantial witness support and the outcome of it is highly contested. Speaking as someone who spent years in the JKD world I personally think Lee lost that fight, though his victory has become popular narrative simply by dint of his students being the most vociferous.
Quote from: oggsmash on November 10, 2020, 02:20:18 PM
Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2020, 02:19:11 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 10, 2020, 12:10:19 PM
Modiphius you shower of dumb fucks. There are plenty of Western Martial Arts.
W. E. Fairbairn ring any bells, No?
Agreed. Game mechanically, it's an interesting question. Originally, they had a talent tree for "martial arts" which is actually for Asian martial arts - with a lot of emphasis on unarmed but also some armed technique. That's wrong, a number of people seem to agree.
One question is, should they:
1) Keep the same talent tree and just rename it "Asian Martial Arts"? Then they could potentially add another talent tree for "European Martial Arts".
2) Instead split it up, and have a "Unarmed Martial Arts" talent tree and add armed techniques into other armed fighting talent trees.
3) Some other option?
just leave it alone because the only people who would have ANY issue with it at all were never going to buy the book in the first place?
Bingo!
We have a winner!
Quote from: Arkansan on November 10, 2020, 02:30:09 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on November 10, 2020, 11:59:43 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 10, 2020, 11:36:43 AM
Isn't jeet kun do (Bruce Lee's 'way of the intercepting fist') considered the ancestor for most modern MMA because of its pragmatism?
This feels like a lot of people faffing about because they want to look good for their buddies.
Not really. He was the first well known person in the USA to try to get people to divorce themselves from a pure style loyalty and advocate for learning a bit of grappling. But he was an actor, and amazing one at that. His ability to practically apply martial arts (fight) is entirely up in the air. The Gracies were probably the biggest promoters of what has become modern MMA, and as they predate Bruce by a good long ways, I can not give Lee credit for that. He did encourage cross training though, which very, very few people did after he promoted it. So I would say his actual effect and influence was minimal. He was ahead of the times so to speak as to what he said here in the US, but Judo kept dying while Karate kept growing after his book and ideology was widespread.
Funny thing is his number 1 (Dan Inosantos) is probably the most cross trained dude on the planet, he can function with striking, grappling (black belt at least in BJJ), knife fighting and so forth. But again, not as influential as you might think. The UFC and the Gracies, no question are the only reason MMA, and it being all over pop culture are a thing. I think Bruce was smart enough to tell the people the truth, but in his movies he showed them what they wanted to believe.
The concept of cross training, breaking fights down in to different ranges, the necessity of having skill in all ranges etc, go back even further than the Gracies. Ancient Greek Pankration was essentially anything goes fighting that was practiced for nearly a 1000 years. Edward Barton Wright combined English Boxing, Savate, Jiu Jitsu, and folk styles of Wrestling back in the late 1800's, his gym had instructors in each art and cross training was considered essential. French self defense exponents were doing the same thing from the late 1800's to the 1910's, combining Savate, Wrestling, and Jiu Jitsu in to a system typically called Defense Dans La Rue.
Hell France had it's "UFC 1" moment in around 1890 or so when a challenge match between a Savate champ and a local Jiu Jitsu instructor ended in a swift take down and arm bar. This sparked a cross training craze, and challenge matches between styles became all the rage. The aforementioned E.B. Wright and many other noted European martial artists of the times took up many public challenges.
Bruce Lee's reputation is mostly due to his silver screen fame. There's really only one account of him fighting, his challenge with Wong Jack Man, that has substantial witness support and the outcome of it is highly contested. Speaking as someone who spent years in the JKD world I personally think Lee lost that fight, though his victory has become popular narrative simply by dint of his students being the most vociferous.
You are correct and I know these things. I was addressing the influence on modern MMA, its the Gracies, flat out. They somehow made it look just cool enough to become actually popular. The challenge matches were a thing, but did not have the advantage of Rorian gracie as a spokesman or the wonders of TV and internet to spread the practicality of what its practitioners were doing.
Quote from: Arkansan on November 10, 2020, 02:30:09 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on November 10, 2020, 11:59:43 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 10, 2020, 11:36:43 AM
Isn't jeet kun do (Bruce Lee's 'way of the intercepting fist') considered the ancestor for most modern MMA because of its pragmatism?
This feels like a lot of people faffing about because they want to look good for their buddies.
Not really. He was the first well known person in the USA to try to get people to divorce themselves from a pure style loyalty and advocate for learning a bit of grappling. But he was an actor, and amazing one at that. His ability to practically apply martial arts (fight) is entirely up in the air. The Gracies were probably the biggest promoters of what has become modern MMA, and as they predate Bruce by a good long ways, I can not give Lee credit for that. He did encourage cross training though, which very, very few people did after he promoted it. So I would say his actual effect and influence was minimal. He was ahead of the times so to speak as to what he said here in the US, but Judo kept dying while Karate kept growing after his book and ideology was widespread.
Funny thing is his number 1 (Dan Inosantos) is probably the most cross trained dude on the planet, he can function with striking, grappling (black belt at least in BJJ), knife fighting and so forth. But again, not as influential as you might think. The UFC and the Gracies, no question are the only reason MMA, and it being all over pop culture are a thing. I think Bruce was smart enough to tell the people the truth, but in his movies he showed them what they wanted to believe.
The concept of cross training, breaking fights down in to different ranges, the necessity of having skill in all ranges etc, go back even further than the Gracies. Ancient Greek Pankration was essentially anything goes fighting that was practiced for nearly a 1000 years. Edward Barton Wright combined English Boxing, Savate, Jiu Jitsu, and folk styles of Wrestling back in the late 1800's, his gym had instructors in each art and cross training was considered essential. French self defense exponents were doing the same thing from the late 1800's to the 1910's, combining Savate, Wrestling, and Jiu Jitsu in to a system typically called Defense Dans La Rue.
Hell France had it's "UFC 1" moment in around 1890 or so when a challenge match between a Savate champ and a local Jiu Jitsu instructor ended in a swift take down and arm bar. This sparked a cross training craze, and challenge matches between styles became all the rage. The aforementioned E.B. Wright and many other noted European martial artists of the times took up many public challenges.
Bruce Lee's reputation is mostly due to his silver screen fame. There's really only one account of him fighting, his challenge with Wong Jack Man, that has substantial witness support and the outcome of it is highly contested. Speaking as someone who spent years in the JKD world I personally think Lee lost that fight, though his victory has become popular narrative simply by dint of his students being the most vociferous.
Regarding JKD, I have to say my experience with people who have trained and moved in those circles is interesting. The thing is, it can be hard to tell who did what with who I guess. I have met some guys who were extremely proficient and competent (I think Dan I. has to be a gold standard for the intentions of JKD) and some other people who made me worry if they escaped from an insane asylum. But then again, I think that might just be a martial arts thing and not exclusive to JKD. It just seems a bit more noticeable with JKD because it can be tricky for people making those links back to Bruce Lee.
Quote from: oggsmash on November 10, 2020, 02:07:07 PM
Quote from: RandyB on November 10, 2020, 02:03:13 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on November 10, 2020, 01:37:52 PM
Quote from: RandyB on November 10, 2020, 01:31:06 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 10, 2020, 12:10:19 PM
Modiphius you shower of dumb fucks. There are plenty of Western Martial Arts.
W. E. Fairbairn ring any bells, No?
Tangential question: what happened to Fairbairn's training and trainees after WWII? From everything I can find, Fairbairn's training simply vanished, except for a series of publications from Paladin Press in the 70s and 80s. Or was it subsumed into other training and Fairbairn's influences left unmentioned?
Government officials who make decisions about what soldiers learn is largely based on who is the best salesman. Has about zero to do with the most practical. They were learning kung fu pressure points at one point. Now though, the guys who sold combatives to the army (I know one of the dudes) based heavily on BJJ, KIckboxing, and knife techniques (that they flat out took from Fairbain) were excellent salesmen as well as extremely skilled at practical martial arts. So the answer regarding fairbane is his spirit and many of his techniques (especially around knife techniques) are back in the army, just not under his name necessarily.
I share your observations about military training. :)
So by this, Fairbairn himself is persona non grata, but his training has been "rebranded' and assimilated into others' work. Definitely a strong possibility.
Hey I can tell you it is a 100 percent fact. Like I said I know the guy who cooked up the SoCOM training stuff and was Larsen's less publicly known partner in pitching it to the Army. Other branches all have some version of the combatives they sold, and I know as I said Fairbairns system is the root of their blade work. But branding matters, and judging from the ENORMOUS compensation the fellow I know has gotten from the US Army, I guess it matters a whole lot.
Ah. Thanks for confirming!
I remember reading somewhere that the primacy of Eastern martial arts over Western close-combat styles is a little overrated -- usually due to the 'exoticism factor' that we all trip over. Western combat techniques through the Renaissance were a lot less 'flynning' and a lot more 'get close, trap opponent's sword arm, then beat the fuck out of his face with your swordhilt or shank him with your off-hand blade.'
Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 10, 2020, 04:12:00 PM
I remember reading somewhere that the primacy of Eastern martial arts over Western close-combat styles is a little overrated -- usually due to the 'exoticism factor' that we all trip over. Western combat techniques through the Renaissance were a lot less 'flynning' and a lot more 'get close, trap opponent's sword arm, then beat the fuck out of his face with your swordhilt or shank him with your off-hand blade.'
I agree, and if you look at actual history, the most respected skills in almost EVERY culture is some form of wrestling/grappling. I am sure that has alot to do with throwing a dude on the ground first, makes stabbing him in a soft spot when he is armored a whole lot easier.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 10, 2020, 04:12:00 PM
I remember reading somewhere that the primacy of Eastern martial arts over Western close-combat styles is a little overrated -- usually due to the 'exoticism factor' that we all trip over. Western combat techniques through the Renaissance were a lot less 'flynning' and a lot more 'get close, trap opponent's sword arm, then beat the fuck out of his face with your swordhilt or shank him with your off-hand blade.'
As someone who has training in both (A LOT of boxing (competed amateur), some wrestling, judo, and "drive-thru kung fu" at a strip mall place), I think it's all based on kung fu movies. Once you reach a reasonable level in any legitimate martial art, you are miles ahead of someone without training, or even someone with training in an allegedly "superior" form. In a straight-up fight, I'd take a collegiate wrestler over anyone below black belt in ANY oriental martial art, it wouldn't even be close. When you start talking about BJJ or something, the very highest levels are probably going to fare better, but against a heavy-weight prizefighting boxer? Good luck! That said, once you start adding in weapons, that changes the entire dynamic, and honestly I'd rather have a .45 than be a 97th level Shaolin master.
Quote from: Brad on November 10, 2020, 04:28:47 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 10, 2020, 04:12:00 PM
I remember reading somewhere that the primacy of Eastern martial arts over Western close-combat styles is a little overrated -- usually due to the 'exoticism factor' that we all trip over. Western combat techniques through the Renaissance were a lot less 'flynning' and a lot more 'get close, trap opponent's sword arm, then beat the fuck out of his face with your swordhilt or shank him with your off-hand blade.'
As someone who has training in both (A LOT of boxing (competed amateur), some wrestling, judo, and "drive-thru kung fu" at a strip mall place), I think it's all based on kung fu movies. Once you reach a reasonable level in any legitimate martial art, you are miles ahead of someone without training, or even someone with training in an allegedly "superior" form. In a straight-up fight, I'd take a collegiate wrestler over anyone below black belt in ANY oriental martial art, it wouldn't even be close. When you start talking about BJJ or something, the very highest levels are probably going to fare better, but against a heavy-weight prizefighting boxer? Good luck! That said, once you start adding in weapons, that changes the entire dynamic, and honestly I'd rather have a .45 than be a 97th level Shaolin master.
I agree about the wrestler, but it is not in any way a fair comparison between two similar things. A wrestling room is there to weed out the weak and make the strong stronger, not to spread the joy of training and learning wrestling to everyone. Boxing is largely in the same boat. IT doesnt take high level BJJ guys do be fine against wrestlers and boxers, but levels are sort of relative, a purple belt takes about 5 years to get and the average to black is 9-10. Most martial arts black is between 2-5 years, and 2-5 years is not enough to deal with a guy who wrestled in college. As to a HW prize fighting boxer, I would give a guy with 6 years of BJJ training a better chance than a guy who boxed for 12 years against that same boxer. Because if you are trying to hit a HW top end boxer, no matter how you are trying to hit him, your time is short.
I do agree for the most part with the assessment regarding what happens when rubber hits the road with regard to how people may view martial arts though. I enjoy discussing it, and do not want anyone to take my specifications as argument.
Quote from: oggsmash on November 10, 2020, 02:20:18 PM
Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2020, 02:19:11 PM
Game mechanically, it's an interesting question. Originally, they had a talent tree for "martial arts" which is actually for Asian martial arts - with a lot of emphasis on unarmed but also some armed technique. That's wrong, a number of people seem to agree.
just leave it alone because the only people who would have ANY issue with it at all were never going to buy the book in the first place?
It seems to me that there's a lot of overlap between people interested in MMA and HEMA and fans of Conan. There's a lot of people who are interested in European and other non-Asian martial arts.
I'm not a fan of either MMA or HEMA per se, but I consider the issue - and I still bought the OGL Conan books and played the system. I haven't bought Modiphius yet, but that's not from lack of interest in Conan.
Quote from: Melan on November 09, 2020, 02:06:11 PM
Yeah, that's right! In the never-ending march of Progress, Conan is next: the Conan RPG has been brought in line (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/modiphius/robert-e-howards-conan-roleplaying-game/posts/3014286) with "a cultural consultant's recommendations that created a more rounded and well-developed representation".
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/9945838f7434315cea7d1a46a6bb2bc2/tenor.gif)
Quote from: Darrin Kelley on November 09, 2020, 07:42:05 PM
If you don't like the product, then don't buy it. Simple as that.
I'm perfectly happy with my collection of OGL Conan.
True. But we are seeing this insane cult spreading their venom to every corner of gaming and if we do not point out these lies they compulsively spread every day. Then we can and will and are being not so slowly edged out of gaming in one way or another.
That and in this case its another example of the cult defiling things popular or well known.
Remember "You can not have George Washington in a historic game because he was RACIST!" no. I kid you not. That is what a publisher told a designer.
Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2020, 05:19:42 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on November 10, 2020, 02:20:18 PM
Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2020, 02:19:11 PM
Game mechanically, it's an interesting question. Originally, they had a talent tree for "martial arts" which is actually for Asian martial arts - with a lot of emphasis on unarmed but also some armed technique. That's wrong, a number of people seem to agree.
just leave it alone because the only people who would have ANY issue with it at all were never going to buy the book in the first place?
It seems to me that there's a lot of overlap between people interested in MMA and HEMA and fans of Conan. There's a lot of people who are interested in European and other non-Asian martial arts.
I'm not a fan of either MMA or HEMA per se, but I consider the issue - and I still bought the OGL Conan books and played the system. I haven't bought Modiphius yet, but that's not from lack of interest in Conan.
I bought the modiphius book a few years ago. I am a bit of a fan, and though I do not like the 2d20 system, I think the book looks excellent and tone and flavor are true to conan without having to have a naked lady on every page of the book. But I think since I have multiple versions (the OGL one, which IMO about as good as d20 can present Conan) and GURPS, I think both of those are more fun, and probably represent the flavor of the genre better for me. So I never got any more of them. IMO if they were really interested in selling books they should shitcan that 2d20 and forget worrying with martial arts triggering some feels or having the East be mysterious (WHICH IT WAS TO ALL WESTERN NATIONS AS IT WAS A LONG WAYS AWAY) and get a better system.
Quote from: TJS on November 10, 2020, 01:57:25 PM
It was obviously dissonant when it was released however. Conan stories are full of scantily clad young women who are all overcome by Conan's inherent manliness.
Um... not really. More than a few of the stories dont even have women in them. Or they arent exactly interested in him, or are on par with him, etc and so on.
Quote from: Brad on November 10, 2020, 04:28:47 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 10, 2020, 04:12:00 PM
I remember reading somewhere that the primacy of Eastern martial arts over Western close-combat styles is a little overrated -- usually due to the 'exoticism factor' that we all trip over. Western combat techniques through the Renaissance were a lot less 'flynning' and a lot more 'get close, trap opponent's sword arm, then beat the fuck out of his face with your swordhilt or shank him with your off-hand blade.'
As someone who has training in both (A LOT of boxing (competed amateur), some wrestling, judo, and "drive-thru kung fu" at a strip mall place), I think it's all based on kung fu movies. Once you reach a reasonable level in any legitimate martial art, you are miles ahead of someone without training, or even someone with training in an allegedly "superior" form. In a straight-up fight, I'd take a collegiate wrestler over anyone below black belt in ANY oriental martial art, it wouldn't even be close. When you start talking about BJJ or something, the very highest levels are probably going to fare better, but against a heavy-weight prizefighting boxer? Good luck! That said, once you start adding in weapons, that changes the entire dynamic, and honestly I'd rather have a .45 than be a 97th level Shaolin master.
I won't dispute your points, but I will say that these things are very situational. In my experience a "straight-up fight" is less common than other scenarios in real life. A couple of anecdotes, and I hope this does not look like bragging - I just want to share my experience.
In one case a friend who
was a college wrestler wanted to see what I could do against him with three years of hapkido training, which was all I had at the time. I knocked him out (accidentally) in less than 5 seconds. My big advantage in that case was that he didn't take my training seriously. I caught him by surprise when I was actually able to do something effective. I don't know if things would have been different in a rematch. On the other hand, in most of the fights we simulate in RPGs, there aren't rematches because the loser is dead.
In two other situations I was up against a guy with a gun, still at my same level of training. In both cases they got too close to me. The big advantages of a gun vs unarmed melee are range and the fact that a bullet can't be parried. Take away the range advantage and things even out somewhat. So again, it's situational.
One possibility I've thought about is contacting the owners of REH rights, rather than Mophidius itself. Quite frankly I'm fine with the license being pulled from Mophidius if this is what's going to happen. At this stage I'm struggling to work out what direct effect on sales of Conan books/licenses would come about from these actions by Mophidius apart from nebulous warnings of indirect SJW creep.
Comics would seem to be a primary example, but this came about from choices made directly by those companies, rather than the actions of other allied entities as it were.
Can anyone provide better examples of what I'm talking about, or am I barking up the wrong tree?
Quote from: oggsmash on November 10, 2020, 04:42:29 PM
I agree about the wrestler, but it is not in any way a fair comparison between two similar things. A wrestling room is there to weed out the weak and make the strong stronger, not to spread the joy of training and learning wrestling to everyone. Boxing is largely in the same boat. IT doesnt take high level BJJ guys do be fine against wrestlers and boxers, but levels are sort of relative, a purple belt takes about 5 years to get and the average to black is 9-10. Most martial arts black is between 2-5 years, and 2-5 years is not enough to deal with a guy who wrestled in college. As to a HW prize fighting boxer, I would give a guy with 6 years of BJJ training a better chance than a guy who boxed for 12 years against that same boxer. Because if you are trying to hit a HW top end boxer, no matter how you are trying to hit him, your time is short.
A pro boxer would cave the skull in of any non-professional athlete. You can cite training all you want, but the ability to deal pure brute force will override any amount of training. Once you get to the athletic abilities of us mere mortals, training is going to be much more relevant, of course. And I'd still say a college wrestler who actually wrestles regularly is going to have better conditioning and strength than anyone doing BJJ unless they also spar all the time, like literally are sparring multiple times a week for hours total.
Quote from: Mishihari on November 10, 2020, 05:39:40 PM
I won't dispute your points, but I will say that these things are very situational. In my experience a "straight-up fight" is less common than other scenarios in real life. A couple of anecdotes, and I hope this does not look like bragging - I just want to share my experience.
Of course it's situational, but I was talking more like some sort of organized fight (like the original UFC) vs. an actual street fight with no rules. In a street fight, the criminal who just shot up some PCP is probably going to eat your face off, regardless of how much of a badass you are on the mat. So, again, gun. You're right about distance; if you have a firearm, use it before someone gets too close or you're going to regret it (hence the bullshit about cops "shooting too soon" being based on pure fantasy).
RE: my own experience, I actually was good at judo as a white belt because I could easily overpower most people who had a lot of training. Just pure strength was enough to overcome their superior skill. The green belt dudes where about where I petered out, just because they were SO much better than me and knew how to nullify any sort of strength advantage I had. I never faced a black belt, but I'm sure he would have kicked my ass from here to oblivion.
There's no such thing as a "straight-up fight" outside of organized sports, which is why this is always a pointless exercise.
Quote from: oggsmash on November 10, 2020, 02:20:18 PM
Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2020, 02:19:11 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 10, 2020, 12:10:19 PM
Modiphius you shower of dumb fucks. There are plenty of Western Martial Arts.
W. E. Fairbairn ring any bells, No?
Agreed. Game mechanically, it's an interesting question. Originally, they had a talent tree for "martial arts" which is actually for Asian martial arts - with a lot of emphasis on unarmed but also some armed technique. That's wrong, a number of people seem to agree.
One question is, should they:
1) Keep the same talent tree and just rename it "Asian Martial Arts"? Then they could potentially add another talent tree for "European Martial Arts".
2) Instead split it up, and have a "Unarmed Martial Arts" talent tree and add armed techniques into other armed fighting talent trees.
3) Some other option?
just leave it alone because the only people who would have ANY issue with it at all were never going to buy the book in the first place?
Pretty much. Plus also, I don't think that there is (or should be) much (if any) fundamental difference between "Eastern", "Western" or any other type of Martial Art in purely mechanistic game terms. Most real life differences between styles are mostly superficial stylistic differences anyway, as well as in terms of what sort of techniques are emphasized in any given style (striking, grappling, evasion, weapons, fists vs kicks, etc.). In game terms, most Martial Arts related abilities tend to be situational damage or defensive bonuses, or special maneuvers like takedowns and such. That sort of thing can pretty much apply to ANY martial arts style from any part of the world. You don't need one hundred thousand variations of what's essentially a "Melee Weapon Damage Bonus", "Unarmed Damage Bonus", etc., to cover every single superficially different style from every region around the globe. Just make "Martial Arts" Martial Arts and leave the character's style for their backstory.
Tangential question: what happened to Fairbairn's training and trainees after WWII? From everything I can find, Fairbairn's training simply vanished, except for a series of publications from Paladin Press in the 70s and 80s. Or was it subsumed into other training and Fairbairn's influences left unmentioned?
[/quote]
Not that I want to hijack the thread and turn it into a thread about Martial Arts. But as you asked... :)
Fairbairn's legacy is alive and well... However, it's gone through a number of changes and has largely remained a relatively underground close combat system. Post WW II most people hadn't the appetite for that type of brutal training anymore. But it was still being taught to the US/UK forces (and others, especially Spec. Ops.) To cut a long story short, Oriental martial arts became very trendy in the 70s/80s and took the world by storm. Due to all those wacky ninja movies and the like. As OP said, a lot of these Oriental Martial Artist black belt 'characters' were good salesmen. And were only too happy to sell their bloated and unworkable systems to the military.
The pinnacle of the American Unarmed combat syllabus was in the mid 80's. Completely reworked by Kelly McCann and Bob Kasper. Their lineage relates directly back to Fairbairn, Col. Rex Applegate, Styers, etc. Of course, McCann modernized and optimized the system, and tested it all over the world. A lot of WWII Combatives (or Close Quarter Combat) has been passed onto us civvies. The state of Combatives now (if you're training with the right people of course) has been merged with 'self-protection' (not to be mistaken for self-defense). It is 'proactive' as opposed to reactive like the later.
The state of military unarmed combat is generally in a poor state and often now follows sporting trends. Such as BJJ in the 90s. Which was a bizarre choice for operational Marines. Imagine taking someone to the ground and rolling about while dressed in heavy ballistic combat gear and with a chunky utility belt.
Lastly, Krav Maga has nothing to do with western combatives. Any recent similarities, are just KM ripping off Combatives. KM is basically traditional Martial Arts in cammo pants - despite what the marketing purports. Meh.
Interestingly enough, Fairbain disliked the term Martial Arts. He used the phrase Martial Science and gutter fighting. I guess he felt he felt there was nothing 'arty' about beating the snot out of someone. :)
Quote from: Brad on November 10, 2020, 06:02:31 PM
There's no such thing as a "straight-up fight" outside of organized sports, which is why this is always a pointless exercise.
I will just repeat the remark a gentleman of the military persuasion once told me.
"If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'."
Quote from: Brad on November 10, 2020, 06:02:31 PM
Of course it's situational, but I was talking more like some sort of organized fight (like the original UFC) vs. an actual street fight with no rules. In a street fight, the criminal who just shot up some PCP is probably going to eat your face off, regardless of how much of a badass you are on the mat. So, again, gun. You're right about distance; if you have a firearm, use it before someone gets too close or you're going to regret it (hence the bullshit about cops "shooting too soon" being based on pure fantasy).
Apropos of nothing, the PCP case is really interesting in this context, as it seems analogous to certain buff spells in RPGs. I had a friend who was attacked by a guy on PCP. Fortunately my friends was both a professional personal weight trainer (and really buff) and a martial arts practitioner. After the guy didn't go down to a couple of strikes that would have worked on any normal person, he broke the guy's leg with a side kick. That ended the fight
but against a heavy-weight prizefighting boxer?
[/quote]
Yup... Give me a boxer (or a Muay Thai guy) over a kratty black belt any day of the week regardless of their 'dan grade'. LOL.
As a lifelong Conan fan there have always been two versions of Conan. One meant for adults and one meant for kids. Even as a kid myself I picked up on how watered down the regular Marvel Conan comic was compared to the Savage Sword magazines.
One good Conan movie for adults, then a PG one for kids and not nearly as good. The third one with the guyliner wearing Conan, I'm not sure who that one was for. Certainly not me. They even had a kids cartoon for a while.
Its really nothing new for this particular IP. You'd hope that adults would want the adult version rather than something watered down, but I suppose its no surprise that the safe space, perpetual child types would not.
I don't know much about Modiphius outside of buying some (quite nice) Star Trek minis of theirs and their recent purity statement regarding CoC. I will say that if they noticed a bump in revenue after making that statement then it makes sense for them to also do it here, and I imagine they'll probably keep doing it.
A little off topic, there is Conan Exiles, a PC/Console game that channels the adult Conan very well. Slavery, cannibalism, full nudity, and the struggle to survive. There are a few paid DLC with some medieval gear that looks very out of place but other than that, very much the Hyborian Age as I've pictured it. I'm kind of surprised Twitter hasn't gone after it yet.
I can't ask for a refund. I went in for the pdfs and those are nearly all delivered. Overall, I've been pretty happy with what they've produced. Honestly, I'm not even upset with the changes. I just hate how they did it.
If they hadn't made an announcement of "look at this great thing we did" I never would have known. I download the draft copies and flip through them, then go back and get the final versions. But who the heck would compare them side-by-side? They just had to make it a virtue signal.
Between this and hiring GMS for the Star Trek books and trying to hide it, I'm done with Modiphius.
Quote from: Mishihari on November 10, 2020, 06:24:15 PM
Apropos of nothing, the PCP case is really interesting in this context, as it seems analogous to certain buff spells in RPGs. I had a friend who was attacked by a guy on PCP. Fortunately my friends was both a professional personal weight trainer (and really buff) and a martial arts practitioner. After they guy didn't go down to a couple of strikes that would have worked on any normal person, he broke the guy's leg with a side kick. That ended the fight
I laughed too hard at this, or maybe not enough. You seem to have some interesting friends...
I have all the hardcovers released so far and they're excellent. The marketing promised a game true to Howard and I'd say they delivered as far as I can tell. Let's see how shitty the next book is. I'll most likely still buy it.
Edit. How does one become a "cultural consultant"?
Quote from: Brad on November 10, 2020, 09:57:43 PM
Quote from: Mishihari on November 10, 2020, 06:24:15 PM
Apropos of nothing, the PCP case is really interesting in this context, as it seems analogous to certain buff spells in RPGs. I had a friend who was attacked by a guy on PCP. Fortunately my friends was both a professional personal weight trainer (and really buff) and a martial arts practitioner. After they guy didn't go down to a couple of strikes that would have worked on any normal person, he broke the guy's leg with a side kick. That ended the fight
I laughed too hard at this, or maybe not enough. You seem to have some interesting friends...
You don't know the half of it. My wife is baffled about how a nice guy like me has so many strange and/or scary friends.
Quote from: Conanist on November 10, 2020, 06:26:37 PMOne good Conan movie for adults, then a PG one for kids and not nearly as good. The third one with the guyliner wearing Conan, I'm not sure who that one was for. Certainly not me. They even had a kids cartoon for a while.
Its really nothing new for this particular IP. You'd hope that adults would want the adult version rather than something watered down, but I suppose its no surprise that the safe space, perpetual child types would not.
1: And a live action TV series.
Hard to believe the 2011 Conan was... Aquaman?
(There was also a Kull movie and a Red Sonja movie.)
Two kids cartoons. Conan the Adventurer, the one with the starmetal weapons and the baby phoenix pet. And Conan and the Young Warriors.
(Darth Vader was going to play Thongor before the movie was cancelled.)
2: I think its more just to virtue signal and probably more outrage marketing ploys.
Quote from: Brad on November 10, 2020, 06:02:31 PMA pro boxer would cave the skull in of any non-professional athlete. You can cite training all you want, but -
This conversation is giving me flashbacks to the GURPS forums.
I have two words for you: overland hiking.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 10, 2020, 06:18:42 PM
Not that I want to hijack the thread and turn it into a thread about Martial Arts. But as you asked... :)
I don't mind partly turning it into a martial arts thread. I moved here from ENWorld and RPG.net because of SJW idiocies, but that doesn't mean that's what I always want to talk about.
Since you sound knowledgeable, what would you recommend as a practical martial art for use outside the dojo? I'm always looking to learn new things and was considering Krav Maga as my next step, which you seem not to care for. Past experience is hapkido, ishinryu, tang soo do, and bits and pieces of a lot of other styles.
Same question to anyone who's interested in putting in their two bits.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley on November 10, 2020, 04:17:06 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat on November 10, 2020, 03:33:37 AM
GURPS Conan and D20 Conan are both good for source material, even if you're not into those systems.
Is there an OSR Conan with the serial numbers barely filed off?
D20 Conan was actually OGL Conan. It was printed on the spine of the core rulebook of both editions.
I'm sure somebody could make an OSR version quite easily. And it's pretty much my favorite D20 based fantasy game.
I'm pretty sure I saw a Castles and Crusades adaptation floating around not long ago.
Quote from: Brad on November 10, 2020, 06:02:31 PMYou can cite training all you want, but the ability to deal pure brute force will override any amount of training. Once you get to the athletic abilities of us mere mortals, training is going to be much more relevant, of course.
This reminds me why I get annoyed by so many game mechanics that favor dexterity/agility hand-to-hand fighters over strength/power fighters. I think both are important, but I get really tired of systems that allow the fast/agile guy to avoid every blow and also hit harder than the powerful/strong guy. I also tend to like dice pool systems that allow sufficient ability score/attribute to compensate for low skill level (although having both is even better, of course).
The problem with KM is that many of their instructors have dubious credentials. That, and a system that is essentially just a 'cut down' traditional Martial Arts system but practiced in combat boots. Always do an instructor check on any of these guys. A lot of the time it's just about $$$. I would also personally AVOID any Oriental martial arts.
IMO, the quickest route to 'self-defence' (or self-protection I should say). Is 'principal based learning' combined with a striking art. Such as boxing to Mauy Thai. I would say MMA. Hoverer, there's a lot of time spent grappling and using the floor. If you're looking for something that is purely for self-protection, there's no need to spend that much time rolling on the mats. If you love it, and enjoy the sport then that's a different matter.
Take your striking art and now apply it to 'street scenarios' and serious pressure testing. Avoidance is always the best policy of course. Fighting is always the worst option.
For basic self-protection I would highly recommend picking up a book called, 'the three Second fighter' By Geoff Thompson. It basically breaks down what happens in a real street fight and why traditional martial arts crumbles under pressure.
Actually, I just found the whole Three Second Fighter video on YT. Well worth a watch! Don't mind the poor quality as it was filmed in the 90s. The content is gold.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctZtDTnyppw
If you want to learn more about 'The Fence' Here's the whole video too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETLWajTDzvE
Geoff Thomspon didn't invent the fence but he brought it to notoriety in the 90s. It's a staple in any good self-defence system.
On the Combatives side of things - You can't go wrong with anything by Lee Morrison: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtfZTdRCfEoRYRqzBUur3lA
Or anything by Kelly McCann or Carl Cestari.
The big problem, with a lot of other so-called self-defence 'experts' is they ride on the coat tails of others and sell you a watered down version of something that they really have no clue about. Unfortunately, this is also applicable to Combatives. Some people are teaching 'combatives' and yet they have no idea of the actual principals. It's about $$$$$.
Quote from: Brad on November 10, 2020, 06:02:31 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on November 10, 2020, 04:42:29 PM
I agree about the wrestler, but it is not in any way a fair comparison between two similar things. A wrestling room is there to weed out the weak and make the strong stronger, not to spread the joy of training and learning wrestling to everyone. Boxing is largely in the same boat. IT doesnt take high level BJJ guys do be fine against wrestlers and boxers, but levels are sort of relative, a purple belt takes about 5 years to get and the average to black is 9-10. Most martial arts black is between 2-5 years, and 2-5 years is not enough to deal with a guy who wrestled in college. As to a HW prize fighting boxer, I would give a guy with 6 years of BJJ training a better chance than a guy who boxed for 12 years against that same boxer. Because if you are trying to hit a HW top end boxer, no matter how you are trying to hit him, your time is short.
A pro boxer would cave the skull in of any non-professional athlete. You can cite training all you want, but the ability to deal pure brute force will override any amount of training. Once you get to the athletic abilities of us mere mortals, training is going to be much more relevant, of course. And I'd still say a college wrestler who actually wrestles regularly is going to have better conditioning and strength than anyone doing BJJ unless they also spar all the time, like literally are sparring multiple times a week for hours total.
Quote from: Mishihari on November 10, 2020, 05:39:40 PM
I won't dispute your points, but I will say that these things are very situational. In my experience a "straight-up fight" is less common than other scenarios in real life. A couple of anecdotes, and I hope this does not look like bragging - I just want to share my experience.
Of course it's situational, but I was talking more like some sort of organized fight (like the original UFC) vs. an actual street fight with no rules. In a street fight, the criminal who just shot up some PCP is probably going to eat your face off, regardless of how much of a badass you are on the mat. So, again, gun. You're right about distance; if you have a firearm, use it before someone gets too close or you're going to regret it (hence the bullshit about cops "shooting too soon" being based on pure fantasy).
RE: my own experience, I actually was good at judo as a white belt because I could easily overpower most people who had a lot of training. Just pure strength was enough to overcome their superior skill. The green belt dudes where about where I petered out, just because they were SO much better than me and knew how to nullify any sort of strength advantage I had. I never faced a black belt, but I'm sure he would have kicked my ass from here to oblivion.
There's no such thing as a "straight-up fight" outside of organized sports, which is why this is always a pointless exercise.
Professional boxer is a WIDE gulf in my personal experience. I have seen pros who go out and get DQ'd so they can fight in two weeks and use the money they get to buy drugs. The training I cite is based on similar levels of athletic ability. I have trained with quite a few professional athletes. At one time I compare favorably with most of them physical performance wise. The freaks (Tim Kennedy comes to mind) are another story, but those guys are freaks at the elite level. I wont disagree a professional fighter is going to beat the shit out of a non pro, but I have seen enough things at this point to have an opinion fully flavored soley in actual results and not theories. The one thing that holds is you can still only work out percentages, not absolutes. As to BJJ guys sparring for hours in a week....I guess you have never trained any BJJ? because 70 percent of training time is sparring at most places.
Quote from: Mishihari on November 11, 2020, 03:37:32 AM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 10, 2020, 06:18:42 PM
Not that I want to hijack the thread and turn it into a thread about Martial Arts. But as you asked... :)
I don't mind partly turning it into a martial arts thread. I moved here from ENWorld and RPG.net because of SJW idiocies, but that doesn't mean that's what I always want to talk about.
Since you sound knowledgeable, what would you recommend as a practical martial art for use outside the dojo? I'm always looking to learn new things and was considering Krav Maga as my next step, which you seem not to care for. Past experience is hapkido, ishinryu, tang soo do, and bits and pieces of a lot of other styles.
Same question to anyone who's interested in putting in their two bits.
If you already know how to poke someone in the eyes and kick nuts, I think KM loses some value. I would say you already know how to kick and punch, try Judo or BJJ. People constantly say some pretty silly things like "You dont want to be rolling around...." But the fact is, you might be rolling around when you didnt want to be, and the other one is, if I am good at BJJ and you are not, the amount of "rolling around" is going to be me strangling you to limbo in about 5-6 seconds. That is about all the rolling you offer me if you are clueless.
I would also say, if you are looking at a disparity in physical ability, size, power, athleticism, etc. BJJ is your best bet (unarmed). I started with striking (kicboxing, boxing and Dutch syled kickboxing) and still enjoy training. But one thing I have seen in 28 years, when it comes to making power you have it or you do not when it comes to across weight class scary power. Everyone can improve, but the ability to have the touch of death is a gift from god, not from training. The ability to affect another person with a strike has an almost exponential path with size. A 135 pound guy who thinks he is keeping a fit 200 pound man off of him with a powerful strike is living in a fantasy world. Striking is like shooting a rifle, grappling is a shotgun. Ever hunt birds in flight with a rifle? Again, I think people should train for all ranges (including firearms). But thinking you do not need to train grappling because you dont want to be rolling around on the ground is silly. NO ONE wants to be rolling around on the ground in a street fight. It just works out, that if you are a mediocre or even poor athlete BJJ is your best chance at having some sort of effective unarmed means to protect yourself.
To link back to the origins of the thread, and Conan, Conan exemplifies a dude who can fight at all ranges and most of his training came from growing up hard (I have a feeling bloody fistfight in a Cimmerian village was a daily if not hourly occurrence) and exemplifies how the gift of one shot power and great reflexes can carry anyone a looooong ways. I agree that in a lot of RPGs there is always an attempt to bring DEX in line with physical strength with regard to combat prowess. I always thought the duel in GOT between the mountain and the red viper pointed out that size and strength will ALWAYS be a fantastic "eraser" for mistakes.
Looks like Modipheus shut down the thread about this on their forums because they didn't like the tone and wording of the complaints. Maybe the posters need to get their own sensitivity readers?
Quote from: Mishihari on November 10, 2020, 06:24:15 PM
Quote from: Brad on November 10, 2020, 06:02:31 PM
Of course it's situational, but I was talking more like some sort of organized fight (like the original UFC) vs. an actual street fight with no rules. In a street fight, the criminal who just shot up some PCP is probably going to eat your face off, regardless of how much of a badass you are on the mat. So, again, gun. You're right about distance; if you have a firearm, use it before someone gets too close or you're going to regret it (hence the bullshit about cops "shooting too soon" being based on pure fantasy).
Apropos of nothing, the PCP case is really interesting in this context, as it seems analogous to certain buff spells in RPGs. I had a friend who was attacked by a guy on PCP. Fortunately my friends was both a professional personal weight trainer (and really buff) and a martial arts practitioner. After the guy didn't go down to a couple of strikes that would have worked on any normal person, he broke the guy's leg with a side kick. That ended the fight
I would find that absolutely terrifying, to be honest, no matter how much training or gear I had. Hats off to your buddy; I know who I'm hiding behind in the event of a zombie apocalypse (at least until I can get the shotgun loaded). :)
Quote from: hedgehobbit on November 09, 2020, 02:26:08 PM
"Martial Arts" is racist now. It's amazing that I can still be surprised by the things that SJWs decide to be offended by.
I always thought that assuming eastern or oriental in front of the words "martial arts'' was racist. Also, assuming that the term only covers unarmed is insane. My favorite martial art is gunjutsu, also known as bangdo. The art of making someone lie down and leave you alone.
Quote from: ponta1010 on November 09, 2020, 08:12:50 PM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley on November 09, 2020, 07:42:05 PM
If you don't like the product, then don't buy it. Simple as that.
I'm perfectly happy with my collection of OGL Conan.
Yes but what about the people that supported the Kickstarter before it decided to do this?
Are we meant to say 'Hey this isn't what we signed up for, give us a refund'?
Titanic Thompson said it well: "Suckers got no business with their money."
Quote from: WillInNewHaven on November 11, 2020, 03:25:01 PM
Quote from: hedgehobbit on November 09, 2020, 02:26:08 PM
"Martial Arts" is racist now. It's amazing that I can still be surprised by the things that SJWs decide to be offended by.
I always thought that assuming eastern or oriental in front of the words "martial arts'' was racist. Also, assuming that the term only covers unarmed is insane. My favorite martial art is gunjutsu, also known as bangdo. The art of making someone lie down and leave you alone.
This is the great irony of the current obsession with race. You have to first reify (treat as a real thing) race, before you can take offence.
There was a whole thread about Dragonlance over at ENworld where multiple posters were saying the portrayal of Goldmoon in Dragonlance art as a blonde white skinned native american was racist. I pointed out that the whole progressive issue with Elizabeth Warren's DNA test which blew back on her, was because she was supposedly doing the exact same thing those posters were doing - treating Native American identity as an issue of biology.
That's not to say that I think you can just do anything, but the issues are more complex and full of contradictions then they're made out to be and the people shouting the loudest right now generally lack any capacity for analytical nuance.
Quote from: TJS on November 11, 2020, 04:02:23 PMThere was a whole thread about Dragonlance over at ENworld where multiple posters were saying the portrayal of Goldmoon in Dragonlance art as a blonde white skinned native american was racist. I pointed out that the whole progressive issue with Elizabeth Warren's DNA test which blew back on her, was because she was supposedly doing the exact same thing those posters were doing - treating Native American identity as an issue of biology.
As an actual Native American with blond hair and blue eyes, that actually offends me quite a bit...I guess these people have only seen Hollywood Indians or the South American/Southwest tribes or something.
Quote from: WillInNewHaven on November 11, 2020, 03:29:44 PM
Titanic Thompson said it well: "Suckers got no business with their money."
Thanks for that... :) :) ;D
Quote from: WillInNewHaven on November 11, 2020, 03:25:01 PM
I always thought that assuming eastern or oriental in front of the words "martial arts'' was racist. Also, assuming that the term only covers unarmed is insane. My favorite martial art is gunjutsu, also known as bangdo. The art of making someone lie down and leave you alone.
I always heard it called "Ka-Ching Buddism" as in; "Ka Ching... Budda Budda Budda!!!" ;D
Quote from: TJS on November 11, 2020, 05:03:21 AM
I'm pretty sure I saw a Castles and Crusades adaptation floating around not long ago.
Thank you! I just hunted this down.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/5ho4a6ujfcp3ks6/AADSp_TdvgS4oVyqrOMz0Vema/C%26C%20Conan%20Rules%20v2%5B1%5D.pdf?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/5ho4a6ujfcp3ks6/AADSp_TdvgS4oVyqrOMz0Vema/C%26C%20Conan%20Rules%20v2%5B1%5D.pdf?dl=0)
There was a C&C Dark Sun there too!
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/5ho4a6ujfcp3ks6/AADzyIcnSyaw0wUQEJOowYMpa/C%26C%20Dark%20Sun%20Adaptation.pdf?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/5ho4a6ujfcp3ks6/AADzyIcnSyaw0wUQEJOowYMpa/C%26C%20Dark%20Sun%20Adaptation.pdf?dl=0)
No idea if they're good. Need some free time to read through them.
Quote from: ponta1010 on November 11, 2020, 05:28:57 PM
Quote from: WillInNewHaven on November 11, 2020, 03:29:44 PM
Titanic Thompson said it well: "Suckers got no business with their money."
Thanks for that... :) :) ;D
I am very skeptical about the whole Kickstarter idea.
QuoteI can't ask for a refund. I went in for the pdfs and those are nearly all delivered. Overall, I've been pretty happy with what they've produced. Honestly, I'm not even upset with the changes. I just hate how they did it.
If they hadn't made an announcement of "look at this great thing we did" I never would have known. I download the draft copies and flip through them, then go back and get the final versions. But who the heck would compare them side-by-side? They just had to make it a virtue signal.
Indeed. I definitely agree.
And I have no problem with them showing more wide approach towards cultures Howard's only mentioned a little overall.
But signalling is just sour. Nevertheless I'm still going to use those books - they are overall good.
QuoteThe third one with the guyliner wearing Conan, I'm not sure who that one was for. Certainly not me.
I totally prefered Momoa overall as Conan, but this film was just unholy stupid mess.
QuoteAs an actual Native American with blond hair and blue eyes, that actually offends me quite a bit...I guess these people have only seen Hollywood Indians or the South American/Southwest tribes or something.
Then of course such colouring is almost certainly sign of European ancestry.
That's saying why we even assume someone called Goldmoon must be N.A.
Quote from: oggsmash on November 11, 2020, 10:32:30 AM
Quote from: Mishihari on November 11, 2020, 03:37:32 AM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 10, 2020, 06:18:42 PM
Not that I want to hijack the thread and turn it into a thread about Martial Arts. But as you asked... :)
I don't mind partly turning it into a martial arts thread. I moved here from ENWorld and RPG.net because of SJW idiocies, but that doesn't mean that's what I always want to talk about.
Since you sound knowledgeable, what would you recommend as a practical martial art for use outside the dojo? I'm always looking to learn new things and was considering Krav Maga as my next step, which you seem not to care for. Past experience is hapkido, ishinryu, tang soo do, and bits and pieces of a lot of other styles.
Same question to anyone who's interested in putting in their two bits.
If you already know how to poke someone in the eyes and kick nuts, I think KM loses some value. I would say you already know how to kick and punch, try Judo or BJJ. People constantly say some pretty silly things like "You dont want to be rolling around...." But the fact is, you might be rolling around when you didnt want to be, and the other one is, if I am good at BJJ and you are not, the amount of "rolling around" is going to be me strangling you to limbo in about 5-6 seconds. That is about all the rolling you offer me if you are clueless.
When it comes to 'reality' you should train for every event (or as much as you can through crises rehearsal). That includes going to the ground. So, should you be dragged to the floor you'll be able to deal with it. Being on the ground is always a secondary option, and never a primary one. You're always going to train for counter weapons too, even though in my country meeting a person with a gun is very very unlikely. Knives are more probable. Again, if someone does have a blade going to ground with would be a deadly affair.
No system is perfect and Murphy's Law is ever present. Best thing anyone can do is practice under full contact and one will soon see what works and what does'nt.
Quote from: VisionStorm on November 09, 2020, 03:50:35 PM
This entire thing is an exercise on looking for things to be offended by, but none more than this...
QuoteFor example, the "Martial Arts" talent tree title was changed to reflect our editorial view, as associated unarmed combat with eastern peoples has a poor tradition of Orientalism within the hobby, when there are counterparts all over the world. Instead they are now called "Unarmed" techniques.
Why, yes... there is a broad variety of combat styles and techniques--both armed and unarmed--all over the world, not just in eastern countries. And they are all called and fall under the category of:
Martial Arts
The subject of "Martial Arts" is not just limited to unarmed techniques or Eastern styles, but applies to ALL combat forms. And there're ALL called "Martial Arts", since acronyms like "HEMA" (Historical European MARTIAL ARTS). "Martial Arts" is not even an eastern language term.
You mongoloids.
You mean to tell me the thing named after a Roman god isn't exclusively Asian?
Or maybe consultant didn't want to have anything to do with wicked cruel european war gods?
Quote from: Brad on November 11, 2020, 04:21:24 PM
Quote from: TJS on November 11, 2020, 04:02:23 PMThere was a whole thread about Dragonlance over at ENworld where multiple posters were saying the portrayal of Goldmoon in Dragonlance art as a blonde white skinned native american was racist. I pointed out that the whole progressive issue with Elizabeth Warren's DNA test which blew back on her, was because she was supposedly doing the exact same thing those posters were doing - treating Native American identity as an issue of biology.
As an actual Native American with blond hair and blue eyes, that actually offends me quite a bit...I guess these people have only seen Hollywood Indians or the South American/Southwest tribes or something.
Everyone knows that North America was littered with gangs of Vikings wandering around beating up the natives*.
* yes, this was part of the lore of Werewolf: Wild West, and my group found it absolutely ridiculous.
Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on November 11, 2020, 08:29:17 PM
That's saying why we even assume someone called Goldmoon must be N.A.
In fairness, everything about Goldmoon's background and culture was N.A.-inspired and derived, and her appearance was unusual for her people. Then again, since the Plainsmen of Ansalon weren't isolated from the other cultures, the possibility of ancestral genetics from another ethnic group is highly plausible.
(Ansalon's diversity is interesting--for a continent smaller than Australia, it has white, black, and American Indianesque residents, with no indication of migration from elsewhere. And this has been part of the setting since 1984.)
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 11, 2020, 09:30:50 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on November 11, 2020, 10:32:30 AM
Quote from: Mishihari on November 11, 2020, 03:37:32 AM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 10, 2020, 06:18:42 PM
Not that I want to hijack the thread and turn it into a thread about Martial Arts. But as you asked... :)
I don't mind partly turning it into a martial arts thread. I moved here from ENWorld and RPG.net because of SJW idiocies, but that doesn't mean that's what I always want to talk about.
Since you sound knowledgeable, what would you recommend as a practical martial art for use outside the dojo? I'm always looking to learn new things and was considering Krav Maga as my next step, which you seem not to care for. Past experience is hapkido, ishinryu, tang soo do, and bits and pieces of a lot of other styles.
Same question to anyone who's interested in putting in their two bits.
If you already know how to poke someone in the eyes and kick nuts, I think KM loses some value. I would say you already know how to kick and punch, try Judo or BJJ. People constantly say some pretty silly things like "You dont want to be rolling around...." But the fact is, you might be rolling around when you didnt want to be, and the other one is, if I am good at BJJ and you are not, the amount of "rolling around" is going to be me strangling you to limbo in about 5-6 seconds. That is about all the rolling you offer me if you are clueless.
When it comes to 'reality' you should train for every event (or as much as you can through crises rehearsal). That includes going to the ground. So, should you be dragged to the floor you'll be able to deal with it. Being on the ground is always a secondary option, and never a primary one. You're always going to train for counter weapons too, even though in my country meeting a person with a gun is very very unlikely. Knives are more probable. Again, if someone does have a blade going to ground with would be a deadly affair.
No system is perfect and Murphy's Law is ever present. Best thing anyone can do is practice under full contact and one will soon see what works and what does'nt.
A Blade is deadly wherever you are. Period. I would say though, the only reason I would say going to the ground is worse on the scale of deadly, is because I have eliminated the option to run. IF you fight a person who knows what they are doing with a knife, and you have no weapon, you are up shit creek. If you know you are doing and they do not, and they are committed in attack, you are still likely to bleed, alot. The only upside is it is not a gun, and a person does make more power with it, stopping power (liver, kidney, heart, etc) thrusts are easier to get with full leverage (meaning standing), So you will get cut up grappling a person with a knife....but guess what, if they have a knife and you do not, you are likley to get cut up anyway. So I agree regarding train the best you can, and most of the time I spend grappling more these days has more to do with impact being harder on the joints than what I feel if most practical for a street scenario. Because the true reality is, the "street scenario" is extremely, extremely rare in a first world nation unless you just want to fight in bars, or you go to too many "peaceful protests".
Quote from: oggsmash on November 12, 2020, 09:29:07 AM
A Blade is deadly wherever you are. Period. I would say though, the only reason I would say going to the ground is worse on the scale of deadly, is because I have eliminated the option to run. IF you fight a person who knows what they are doing with a knife, and you have no weapon, you are up shit creek. If you know you are doing and they do not, and they are committed in attack, you are still likely to bleed, alot. The only upside is it is not a gun, and a person does make more power with it, stopping power (liver, kidney, heart, etc) thrusts are easier to get with full leverage (meaning standing), So you will get cut up grappling a person with a knife....but guess what, if they have a knife and you do not, you are likley to get cut up anyway. So I agree regarding train the best you can, and most of the time I spend grappling more these days has more to do with impact being harder on the joints than what I feel if most practical for a street scenario. Because the true reality is, the "street scenario" is extremely, extremely rare in a first world nation unless you just want to fight in bars, or you go to too many "peaceful protests".
Grappling certainly has it's place no doubt about it. But tactically its the worst place to go unless you've no other option or get dragged down.
There's lots of things to consider:
Dangerous uneven surface.
The concrete is effing hard, and if you go down badly you could be looking at an injury. No light canvas to break your fall.
Detritus - Broken bottles, syringes, etc.
Also, if there are two assailants. His mate could stab you or kick you to death while you're engaged - that actually happened some years back to UFC guy (got stabbed by the opponent's mate from behind).
You're critical focus will be compromised and focused on one opponent (tunnel vision, adrenaline, etc).
Compromises one's ability to escape.
Like I said, you train for it but you don't aim for it.
Re. Knives, a person who 'really knows' what they are doing with a knife - Then you can pretty much kiss your ass goodbye. AKA - a two handed knife fighter. Someone who uses their 'off hand' in order to use their main hand to stab. Mind you, even a drooling drunk lunatic with absolutely no training whatsoever is still very deadly. Especially if they panic. They will go sewing machine on your ass (especially if you try and hold them).
In all honesty, to this date, I've never seen ANY system that can deal with a knife 100%. Yeah, you might very well get cut - It's about mitigating the damage by attempting to cover your vital areas. Easier said then done of course. However, there are some principals that are light years ahead of that Kratty Fu shit where they just simply pluck the knife out of the air. LOL. I'd love to see someone try that outside the Dojo against a committed knife wielder with real intent.
Running is always the best option... As I said before. Fighting is a mugs game, best reserved for the school yard and scum bags. Unfortunately, even in a 1st world country there are still plenty of violent scum who venture into nice places. I know many people who've been violent attacked in Dublin city for doing nothing more than minding their own business (some even in broad daylight with lots of folks about). And it's only going to get worse as the economy takes another nosedive with this whole pandemic thing. Shite bags have got to have their drug money.
Also, if it's part of your occupation you don't always have the option of running or walking away. For example I worked as a bouncer for three years in the UK to put myself through art college (in my twenties). I never had the option of just walking away unfortunately. Luckily we had a good team of guys.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 12, 2020, 10:31:27 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on November 12, 2020, 09:29:07 AM
A Blade is deadly wherever you are. Period. I would say though, the only reason I would say going to the ground is worse on the scale of deadly, is because I have eliminated the option to run. IF you fight a person who knows what they are doing with a knife, and you have no weapon, you are up shit creek. If you know you are doing and they do not, and they are committed in attack, you are still likely to bleed, alot. The only upside is it is not a gun, and a person does make more power with it, stopping power (liver, kidney, heart, etc) thrusts are easier to get with full leverage (meaning standing), So you will get cut up grappling a person with a knife....but guess what, if they have a knife and you do not, you are likley to get cut up anyway. So I agree regarding train the best you can, and most of the time I spend grappling more these days has more to do with impact being harder on the joints than what I feel if most practical for a street scenario. Because the true reality is, the "street scenario" is extremely, extremely rare in a first world nation unless you just want to fight in bars, or you go to too many "peaceful protests".
Grappling certainly has it's place no doubt about it. But tactically its the worst place to go unless you've no other option or get dragged down.
There's lots of things to consider:
Dangerous uneven surface.
The concrete is effing hard, and if you go down badly you could be looking at an injury. No light canvas to break your fall.
Detritus - Broken bottles, syringes, etc.
Also, if there are two assailants. His mate could stab you or kick you to death while you're engaged - that actually happened some years back to UFC guy (got stabbed by the opponent's mate from behind).
You're critical focus will be compromised and focused on one opponent (tunnel vision, adrenaline, etc).
Compromises one's ability to escape.
Like I said, you train for it but you don't aim for it.
Re. Knives, a person who 'really knows' what they are doing with a knife - Then you can pretty much kiss your ass goodbye. AKA - a two handed knife fighter. Someone who uses their 'off hand' in order to use their main hand to stab. Mind you, even a drooling drunk lunatic with absolutely no training whatsoever is still very deadly. Especially if they panic. They will go sewing machine on your ass (especially if you try and hold them).
In all honesty, to this date, I've never seen ANY system that can deal with a knife 100%. Yeah, you might very well get cut - It's about mitigating the damage by attempting to cover your vital areas. Easier said then done of course. However, there are some principals that are light years ahead of that Kratty Fu shit where they just simply pluck the knife out of the air. LOL. I'd love to see someone try that outside the Dojo against a committed knife wielder with real intent.
Running is always the best option... As I said before. Fighting is a mugs game, best reserved for the school yard and scum bags. Unfortunately, even in a 1st world country there are still plenty of violent scum who venture into nice places. I know many people who've been violent attacked in Dublin city for doing nothing more than minding their own business (some even in broad daylight with lots of folks about). And it's only going to get worse as the economy takes another nosedive with this whole pandemic thing. Shite bags have got to have their drug money.
Also, if it's part of your occupation you don't always have the option of running or walking away. For example I worked as a bouncer for three years in the UK to put myself through art college (in my twenties). I never had the option of just walking away unfortunately. Luckily we had a good team of guys.
I think you keep missing the most important part about grappling, If I am the one who knows how (on the ground, and more importantly how to get you to the ground) I get to decide who lands on which surface. When we are down there, I get to decide I am on top. While we are down there, I get to decide when I get up. Of course I prefer to hand the other fellow in the conversation a spicy three piece and be done with it, but I think you have basically simply expounded for the most part on everything I have said and we agree. It has always been the narrative the street will be littered with broken glass, needles and poop. IN the past I laughed at it, but the state of some large US cities actually make me take it more seriously. But again, if we tie up, and I know what I am doing, and you do not, you go airborne and I land on you. You land on the poop, glass and needles. That is an ace I personally like to keep in my pocket.
Quote from: oggsmash on November 12, 2020, 10:55:22 AM
But again, if we tie up, and I know what I am doing, and you do not, you go airborne and I land on you. You land on the poop, glass and needles. That is an ace I personally like to keep in my pocket.
Oh absolutely... If said 'no mark' who has no training goes to the floor with someone who does. He's in deep shit (literally!). I think it's just good practice to keep the other situational factors at the back of one's mind whenever possible.
QuoteIn fairness, everything about Goldmoon's background and culture was N.A.-inspired and derived, and her appearance was unusual for her people. Then again, since the Plainsmen of Ansalon weren't isolated from the other cultures, the possibility of ancestral genetics from another ethnic group is highly plausible.
(Ansalon's diversity is interesting--for a continent smaller than Australia, it has white, black, and American Indianesque residents, with no indication of migration from elsewhere. And this has been part of the setting since 1984.)
I mean maybe gods created it that way?
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 12, 2020, 11:17:25 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on November 12, 2020, 10:55:22 AM
But again, if we tie up, and I know what I am doing, and you do not, you go airborne and I land on you. You land on the poop, glass and needles. That is an ace I personally like to keep in my pocket.
Oh absolutely... If said 'no mark' who has no training goes to the floor with someone who does. He's in deep shit (literally!). I think it's just good practice to keep the other situational factors at the back of one's mind whenever possible.
Dont get me wrong, I waste more breath trying to get BJJ guys to learn footwork, head movement, and training their kickboxing and boxing that I do trying to get anti grapplers to at least be proficient (to me that is about a year of training with about 6-10 hours on the mat a week). Dogmas are everywhere, and BJJ, especially in the past 15 or so years with such a shift to sport focus is far, far from immune to it.
Quote from: oggsmash on November 12, 2020, 11:44:30 AM
Dogmas are everywhere, and BJJ, especially in the past 15 or so years with such a shift to sport focus is far, far from immune to it.
Absolutely... It's everywhere.
If you have something like BJJ and combine it with boxing, while adding a few principals (and some scenario training) you'll be formidable. No doubt about it...
Quote from: Innocent Smith on November 12, 2020, 03:38:01 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on November 09, 2020, 03:50:35 PM
This entire thing is an exercise on looking for things to be offended by, but none more than this...
QuoteFor example, the "Martial Arts" talent tree title was changed to reflect our editorial view, as associated unarmed combat with eastern peoples has a poor tradition of Orientalism within the hobby, when there are counterparts all over the world. Instead they are now called "Unarmed" techniques.
Why, yes... there is a broad variety of combat styles and techniques--both armed and unarmed--all over the world, not just in eastern countries. And they are all called and fall under the category of:
Martial Arts
The subject of "Martial Arts" is not just limited to unarmed techniques or Eastern styles, but applies to ALL combat forms. And there're ALL called "Martial Arts", since acronyms like "HEMA" (Historical European MARTIAL ARTS). "Martial Arts" is not even an eastern language term.
You mongoloids.
You mean to tell me the thing named after a Roman god isn't exclusively Asian?
Naming the Martial Arts after a Roman god was a white supremacist plot to steal Asian cultural heritage for white people, and is deeply racist. Just like logic and mathematics.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on November 12, 2020, 09:26:35 AM(Ansalon's diversity is interesting--for a continent smaller than Australia, it has white, black, and American Indianesque residents, with no indication of migration from elsewhere. And this has been part of the setting since 1984.)
Its a planet created and populated by gods. Evolution and genetics instantly go right out the window. And to kick off the series we have a god corrupting dragon eggs to create a new race.
Now add in a power that literally can toss a wild card into even that and anything is possible. The dwarves alone are ample example of this. One race gets split by the changestone into three wildly different races.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 10, 2020, 11:36:43 AM
Isn't jeet kun do (Bruce Lee's 'way of the intercepting fist') considered the ancestor for most modern MMA because of its pragmatism?
Bruce Lee is often considered the godfather of MMA even though very little is said about Jeet Kune Do. He realized a lot of what was being taught didn't work in a street fight. There's differences of opinion on when Bruce realized this, but I think it was his fight with Wong Jack Man when it went to the ground and neither knew what the fuck he was doing. There are "stories" about Bruce street-fighting as a youth, but I regard that as mostly myth or he'd have started JKD sooner.
I think oggsmash mentioned the Gracies, and yes, they were around before Bruce, but they didn't have the cultural reach Mr. Lee had.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 12, 2020, 10:31:27 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on November 12, 2020, 09:29:07 AM
A Blade is deadly wherever you are. Period. I would say though, the only reason I would say going to the ground is worse on the scale of deadly, is because I have eliminated the option to run. IF you fight a person who knows what they are doing with a knife, and you have no weapon, you are up shit creek. If you know you are doing and they do not, and they are committed in attack, you are still likely to bleed, alot. The only upside is it is not a gun, and a person does make more power with it, stopping power (liver, kidney, heart, etc) thrusts are easier to get with full leverage (meaning standing), So you will get cut up grappling a person with a knife....but guess what, if they have a knife and you do not, you are likley to get cut up anyway. So I agree regarding train the best you can, and most of the time I spend grappling more these days has more to do with impact being harder on the joints than what I feel if most practical for a street scenario. Because the true reality is, the "street scenario" is extremely, extremely rare in a first world nation unless you just want to fight in bars, or you go to too many "peaceful protests".
Re. Knives, a person who 'really knows' what they are doing with a knife - Then you can pretty much kiss your ass goodbye. AKA - a two handed knife fighter. Someone who uses their 'off hand' in order to use their main hand to stab. Mind you, even a drooling drunk lunatic with absolutely no training whatsoever is still very deadly. Especially if they panic. They will go sewing machine on your ass (especially if you try and hold them).
In all honesty, to this date, I've never seen ANY system that can deal with a knife 100%. Yeah, you might very well get cut - It's about mitigating the damage by attempting to cover your vital areas. Easier said then done of course. However, there are some principals that are light years ahead of that Kratty Fu shit where they just simply pluck the knife out of the air. LOL. I'd love to see someone try that outside the Dojo against a committed knife wielder with real intent.
Running is always the best option... As I said before. Fighting is a mugs game, best reserved for the school yard and scum bags. Unfortunately, even in a 1st world country there are still plenty of violent scum who venture into nice places. I know many people who've been violent attacked in Dublin city for doing nothing more than minding their own business (some even in broad daylight with lots of folks about). And it's only going to get worse as the economy takes another nosedive with this whole pandemic thing. Shite bags have got to have their drug money.
Also, if it's part of your occupation you don't always have the option of running or walking away. For example I worked as a bouncer for three years in the UK to put myself through art college (in my twenties). I never had the option of just walking away unfortunately. Luckily we had a good team of guys.
How do you know the winners and losers in a knife fight? The loser dies in the street. The winner dies in the ambulance...
Quote from: Jason Coplen on November 12, 2020, 08:10:52 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 10, 2020, 11:36:43 AM
Isn't jeet kun do (Bruce Lee's 'way of the intercepting fist') considered the ancestor for most modern MMA because of its pragmatism?
Bruce Lee is often considered the godfather of MMA even though very little is said about Jeet Kune Do. He realized a lot of what was being taught didn't work in a street fight. There's differences of opinion on when Bruce realized this, but I think it was his fight with Wong Jack Man when it went to the ground and neither knew what the fuck he was doing. There are "stories" about Bruce street-fighting as a youth, but I regard that as mostly myth or he'd have started JKD sooner.
I think oggsmash mentioned the Gracies, and yes, they were around before Bruce, but they didn't have the cultural reach Mr. Lee had.
Well, the thing is, once Lee passed, JKD fell FAR by the wayside of Karate and TKD. I read his book back in 1991 when I first got involved with martial arts, but the fact is his principles were not being followed or payed attention to at that time in my personal experience. So I would say alot more people may know who Bruce Lee is, but none of them, other than martial arts enthusiasts who pursued reading his book felt any of that aspect of his influence. He did actually slide some grappling into Enter the Dragon, but it seemed to have zero effect, since Judo academies survived that period (and honestly to this day) by being inside a Karate Dojo or in a community center teaching some kids for almost free. Royce Gracie got people's attention in a way Bruce's book could not. You would think, given the boost from Bruce, that JKD would have been a much more widespread and practiced martial art, but I think politics and puritanism sort of killed them to a degree on a national scale. Where at the same time Karate and TKD had fewer puritanism issues. Which is interesting, because Chuck Norris, was much more cross trained (he was a Judo Black belt before he trained Tang soo do if I remember correctly) essentially sold karate to America better than Bruce had sold JKD. So I do not disagree more people may have known who Bruce Lee was, the Gracies putting the UFC into being had a considerably larger effect among the actual martial artists in the country than Bruce's book did, insofar as people doing something other than reading a theory. That sort of blossomed from there and then we have modern MMA, which is sort of becoming its own thing. Also regarding Chuck, he was training with the Machados a good while before the UFC took place, I saw a video of him doing a demo with them, I think in Germany from 90 or 91. It may be later, but Chuck was already clearly very well trained.
IN the end, what happened here in America, as what sadly happens all the time, the best marketing won out. Turns out seeing a dude actually choke people on TV, is more appealing than reading a book.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on November 12, 2020, 08:44:50 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 12, 2020, 10:31:27 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on November 12, 2020, 09:29:07 AM
A Blade is deadly wherever you are. Period. I would say though, the only reason I would say going to the ground is worse on the scale of deadly, is because I have eliminated the option to run. IF you fight a person who knows what they are doing with a knife, and you have no weapon, you are up shit creek. If you know you are doing and they do not, and they are committed in attack, you are still likely to bleed, alot. The only upside is it is not a gun, and a person does make more power with it, stopping power (liver, kidney, heart, etc) thrusts are easier to get with full leverage (meaning standing), So you will get cut up grappling a person with a knife....but guess what, if they have a knife and you do not, you are likley to get cut up anyway. So I agree regarding train the best you can, and most of the time I spend grappling more these days has more to do with impact being harder on the joints than what I feel if most practical for a street scenario. Because the true reality is, the "street scenario" is extremely, extremely rare in a first world nation unless you just want to fight in bars, or you go to too many "peaceful protests".
Re. Knives, a person who 'really knows' what they are doing with a knife - Then you can pretty much kiss your ass goodbye. AKA - a two handed knife fighter. Someone who uses their 'off hand' in order to use their main hand to stab. Mind you, even a drooling drunk lunatic with absolutely no training whatsoever is still very deadly. Especially if they panic. They will go sewing machine on your ass (especially if you try and hold them).
In all honesty, to this date, I've never seen ANY system that can deal with a knife 100%. Yeah, you might very well get cut - It's about mitigating the damage by attempting to cover your vital areas. Easier said then done of course. However, there are some principals that are light years ahead of that Kratty Fu shit where they just simply pluck the knife out of the air. LOL. I'd love to see someone try that outside the Dojo against a committed knife wielder with real intent.
Running is always the best option... As I said before. Fighting is a mugs game, best reserved for the school yard and scum bags. Unfortunately, even in a 1st world country there are still plenty of violent scum who venture into nice places. I know many people who've been violent attacked in Dublin city for doing nothing more than minding their own business (some even in broad daylight with lots of folks about). And it's only going to get worse as the economy takes another nosedive with this whole pandemic thing. Shite bags have got to have their drug money.
Also, if it's part of your occupation you don't always have the option of running or walking away. For example I worked as a bouncer for three years in the UK to put myself through art college (in my twenties). I never had the option of just walking away unfortunately. Luckily we had a good team of guys.
How do you know the winners and losers in a knife fight? The loser dies in the street. The winner dies in the ambulance...
My father, who is a retired police officer who was actually shot in the line of duty when I was in the 1st grade, once told me a story regarding a call he went to. Two guys had gotten into a somewhat drunken rage infused brawl and one had a knife, and the other I think a straight razor. When he and the other police got there, the "winner" was walking towards the back of the establishment, they couldnt see him at first on entering, but were able to follow the string of 20' or so of his intestines wrapped around a chair leg, and he was tugging like a zombie unable to move and grunting because of the pull back as he tried to move further. Still had his knife, dont remember what kind, as his opponent was dead, from multiple stab wounds and some severe neck slashes. The guy did live to get in the ambulance, but as you have explained he died en route.
Ah the stories from childhood we get to hear, and also why I do wonder why people want to enter the profession. I think my mind was made up police was a hard pass by third grade (when my brother and I had to move out for a month over some dude who had pals camping my parents house after killing another cop by mistake).
Scroll down near the bottom for OSR Conan.
https://www.grey-elf.com/
I always knew Conan was gay.
I mean those leather briefs basically were certain giveaway.
The Modiphius books are for sale cheap at Humble Bundle.
https://www.humblebundle.com/books/conan-modiphius-books
I'm not interested in the system, but are they worth getting for background material?
QuoteI'm not interested in the system, but are they worth getting for background material?
They went quite throughly through almost all Hyborian Era countries and lands, and despite this pitiful virtue signalling they make rather cosmetic changes.
Quote from: Pat on November 13, 2020, 10:13:02 AM
The Modiphius books are for sale cheap at Humble Bundle.
https://www.humblebundle.com/books/conan-modiphius-books
I'm not interested in the system, but are they worth getting for background material?
If you do get the Humble Bundle, bear in mind that you can designate where the money goes, and the EFF is a pretty decent charity to direct your payment towards.
I read through Conan the Wanderer - if they think that changing a few words has made the book 'woke' they're kidding themselves. No way is it remotely woke.
Should anyone want to attack Modiphius there's plenty of ammunition (not surprising - consultants and sensitivity readers will never save you.)
It's also really not a good book from a rpg perspective (I don't know, if you want Conan Lore or something it might be ok - although it alls seems like obvioux extraploation to me). Precious little in the way of maps - those they do have are useless - basically just illustrations - no locations detailed from a GM perspective. They do have new rules for the 2d20 system, but that already has more player options then anyone could really need.
Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on November 13, 2020, 10:53:48 AM
They went quite throughly through almost all Hyborian Era countries and lands, and despite this pitiful virtue signalling they make rather cosmetic changes.
Thanks, ended up picking up the whole thing. It's probably a good sign that Conan the Wanderer is the only book in the bundle with a "cultural sensitivity reader" in the credits, but without a single listed "writer".
Quote from: Valatar on November 13, 2020, 11:30:35 AM
If you do get the Humble Bundle, bear in mind that you can designate where the money goes, and the EFF is a pretty decent charity to direct your payment towards.
EFF is great, but the default (JDRF) is doing research on juvenile diabetes, which is worthwhile as well. (Good rating on Charity Navigator, (https://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=3963) especially when it comes to accountability/transparency.) Moved the slider a bit in their direction.
Quote from: Pat on November 13, 2020, 10:13:02 AM
The Modiphius books are for sale cheap at Humble Bundle.
https://www.humblebundle.com/books/conan-modiphius-books
I'm not interested in the system, but are they worth getting for background material?
Dammit Pat your making me want to get the books now. it's 20$ Canadian for everything hard to pass up.
QuoteThanks, ended up picking up the whole thing. It's probably a good sign that Conan the Wanderer is the only book in the bundle with a "cultural sensitivity reader" in the credits, but without a single listed "writer".
I think they made minor tweaks with fake-Asia books, but I remember Sub-Saharan Africa book to be reason third bundle of books were late due to revision. Predcitably I suppose.
Still plenty savage serpent cults out there.
The last version I had downloaded was Version 5, which still had The Mysterious East as a chapter title and had a Martial Arts talent tree. Obviously, it was Stormfront recruiting material and had to be expurgated.
At least I have a version I can read without laughing.
Quote from: jhkim on November 09, 2020, 08:20:33 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on November 09, 2020, 06:44:20 PM
Quote from: jhkim on November 09, 2020, 04:45:07 PM
Isn't that the point of the complaint? I agree with your point here - but that problem is that in practice, almost no one refers to Conan the Barbarian as a "martial arts film" or Errol Flynn as a "martial arts star". For example, in my copy of GURPS Martial Arts (3rd ed), the cover has a yin-yang symbol and there are seven weapon tables: Chinese, Japanese, Ninja, Philippine, Indonesian, Indian, and Korean. So clearly it's not about all combat forms but rather focused on Asian forms.
Unfortunately that's true, and it came about after the term "Martial Arts" became associated with eastern unarmed styles with the influx of Martial Arts films in the 70s, which continued in the 80s and somewhat the 90s.
However, that was at the turn of the last century. We're living in 2020 now. HEMA is all over YouTube. People know about Capoeira, Krav Maga and other non-Eastern martial arts as well. People should know "Martial Arts" extends beyond just eastern styles of unarmed combat by now, and even if they don't they're still in error and need to be corrected, not change the meaning of the term "Martial Arts" cuz some people are idiots.
This was a pet peeve of mine even in the 90s (the decade I started playing), and I would frequently correct people when it came up during play or character creation, and point out that swinging a sword itself was a martial art.
I think we're just agreeing here. I had exactly the same pet peeve.
As regards Conan - it sounds to me like Conan 2d20 originally had a talent tree called "martial arts" that implied something more like Asian styles, rather than just general combat skills. However, I only have the quickstart rules which doesn't have that tree - so I'm not sure what the deal is.
All of the talents except one are based on the first step in the tree, Open Hand, and they are Unarmed.
The one weapon talent in the tree is Symphony of Blades, and it lets you use the abilities of open hand techniques with weapons. So instead of blocking an arrow with your hand, you can do it with a sword, staff, whatever. Each new weapon you add you retake the Symphony of Blades talent. So yeah, it's mostly focused on Open Hand techniques and the types of moves you see in Asian Martial Arts.
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper on November 09, 2020, 10:21:57 PM
Quote from: Batjon on November 09, 2020, 09:50:55 PM
Tons of KS backers are demanding refunds, including me. I spent over $1,000 on this game at the Mount Yishma highest pledge level.
I told them "At this point I think I'd like a refund of the $1,000 I spent on backing this bait and switch scam of a Kickstarter and sham of a game. I paid for the tagline of being authentic to REH and the original Conan stories and you have now breached my trust. I do not want SJW virtue-signaling and soy boy politics in my Conan game. Leave your politics out of gaming products."
There are tons of people pissed off in the comments for the backers and many are demanding refunds.
Good luck to you - but I have to say - a grand is sort of a ridiculous amount of cash to put into a single game, especially before you've seen it. I think I probably gave a bit more than that to Games Workshop over the years, but that was over the course of more than a decade with multiple armies and three different game systems.
That level of Kickstarter support just reminds me of the Star Citizen backers who bought a theoretical digital battle carrier or whatnot. (To be fair - I did buy Star Citizen nearly a decade ago now - but just the base game. I'm an optimist who liked Wing Commander and Freelancer - I'm not crazy.)
As a birthday present I got an account with a Constellation Ship. I'll have to go back and see if I can fly it yet. :D
Quote from: CRKrueger on November 15, 2020, 05:28:16 AM
The last version I had downloaded was Version 5, which still had The Mysterious East as a chapter title and had a Martial Arts talent tree. Obviously, it was Stormfront recruiting material and had to be expurgated.
At least I have a version I can read without laughing.
If you keep this disgusting PDF on your PC you are endorsing hates speech and potentially, literally, killing people. That. Is. Not. Okay. You will be receiving one Yikes from me, sweetie.
Anyway, it's Morphius so I don't know how anybody can be too surprised to see this. It was inevitable.
Does anyone have a complete list of all the changes they made?
I wanted to reply to too many posts RE: MMA, so I'll just leave a general response.
Sorry.
The "holy trinity" of MMA foundations are the Olympic Four (Freestyle, Greco, Judo, Sambo) for your Takedowns - submission grappling (has lots of names, but all basically the same thing) for submissions - and Muay Thai or Dirty Boxing for Striking.
That's pretty much it.
Over the past 30 years, this is what works. This is what consistently beats everything else. Over and over and over, person to person to person. It isn't guess-work anymore. It isn't opinion. There are occasionally techniques that we thought were bullshit in the 1990's that people manage to "rediscover" by making changes, but they are RARE.
Absolutely NO ONE in MMA considers Bruce Lee to be the godfather of MMA.
Mentioning you practice JKD in MMA circles is almost certain to get you laughed at, and probably straight to your face. If not, then behind your back. It is considered a "joke" art, along with Aikido, Kung Fu (any style), virtually all TKD, Pencak Silat, and many others.
MMA did not start with the UFC. The UFC was the Gracie Families move to get their product into the US market (and it worked). They knew exactly what they were doing in which fighters they invited to their PPV, and they knew 99.999% of the US had never even heard of Luta Livre, Shooto, or Catch Wrestling. MMA started with the late-19th, early-20th century traveling circuses (same origin as Pro Wrestling, believe it or not). If anybody wants to know, just ask.
Vale Tudo was publicly televised in Brazil as late as 1960. Shooto leagues have been in continuous operation in Japan since the at least the 1980's. For those of you who watched in the early days ... where do you think guys like Marco Ruas came from? He wasn't a BJJ practitioner, and was not affiliated with any Gracie school.
If you only have the time (and MONEY) to train one thing, study BJJ WITH THE GI. If you get in a street fight, chances are you will both be wearing clothes. Gi techniques are extremely important and you won't see them anywhere else. This should cost ~$120/month at a legit school (depending on where you are in the nation).
If you are not going to be a pro, don't waste time on standing techniques unless this is your full-time hobby. The return on training is extremely low, and training properly carries significant injury risk. If you are going to practice it, for the love of god don't take a normal boxing class. Boxing has evolved into a very specific sport, and because of that, they do a LOT of things wrong for a regular fight. (e.g. the torque off the lead foot ... which gives you zero TD defense). You ever watch those really old boxers holding their hands palm-up? They are punching like that because they are not wearing gloves. The are mostly short-arming backfists. Punching the way you see in the sport today without being properly taped and wearing gloves will almost certainly break your hands before the fights over. Watch the early UFC stuff ... this is what took out the America Kickboxers and Kenpo guys consistently. Even if they "won", at least one hand was broken.
Lastly, ask the school if they train ankle locks & heel hooks. If they say "yes", go somewhere else. They are extremely dangerous and can easily result in life-long injury. Most schools will not allow them.
Quote from: Two Crows on December 30, 2020, 05:45:43 PM
I wanted to reply to too many posts RE: MMA, so I'll just leave a general response.
Sorry.
The "holy trinity" of MMA foundations are the Olympic Four (Freestyle, Greco, Judo, Sambo) for your Takedowns - submission grappling (has lots of names, but all basically the same thing) for submissions - and Muay Thai or Dirty Boxing for Striking.
That's pretty much it.
Over the past 30 years, this is what works. This is what consistently beats everything else. Over and over and over, person to person to person. It isn't guess-work anymore. It isn't opinion. There are occasionally techniques that we thought were bullshit in the 1990's that people manage to "rediscover" by making changes, but they are RARE.
Absolutely NO ONE in MMA considers Bruce Lee to be the godfather of MMA.
Mentioning you practice JKD in MMA circles is almost certain to get you laughed at, and probably straight to your face. If not, then behind your back. It is considered a "joke" art, along with Aikido, Kung Fu (any style), virtually all TKD, Pencak Silat, and many others.
MMA did not start with the UFC. The UFC was the Gracie Families move to get their product into the US market (and it worked). They knew exactly what they were doing in which fighters they invited to their PPV, and they knew 99.999% of the US had never even heard of Luta Livre, Shooto, or Catch Wrestling. MMA started with the late-19th, early-20th century traveling circuses (same origin as Pro Wrestling, believe it or not). If anybody wants to know, just ask.
Vale Tudo was publicly televised in Brazil as late as 1960. Shooto leagues have been in continuous operation in Japan since the at least the 1980's. For those of you who watched in the early days ... where do you think guys like Marco Ruas came from? He wasn't a BJJ practitioner, and was not affiliated with any Gracie school.
If you only have the time (and MONEY) to train one thing, study BJJ WITH THE GI. If you get in a street fight, chances are you will both be wearing clothes. Gi techniques are extremely important and you won't see them anywhere else. This should cost ~$120/month at a legit school (depending on where you are in the nation).
If you are not going to be a pro, don't waste time on standing techniques unless this is your full-time hobby. The return on training is extremely low, and training properly carries significant injury risk. If you are going to practice it, for the love of god don't take a normal boxing class. Boxing has evolved into a very specific sport, and because of that, they do a LOT of things wrong for a regular fight. (e.g. the torque off the lead foot ... which gives you zero TD defense). You ever watch those really old boxers holding their hands palm-up? They are punching like that because they are not wearing gloves. The are mostly short-arming backfists. Punching the way you see in the sport today without being properly taped and wearing gloves will almost certainly break your hands before the fights over. Watch the early UFC stuff ... this is what took out the America Kickboxers and Kenpo guys consistently. Even if they "won", at least one hand was broken.
Lastly, ask the school if they train ankle locks & heel hooks. If they say "yes", go somewhere else. They are extremely dangerous and can easily result in life-long injury. Most schools will not allow them.
Those are what largely work but it does leave out some things. For instance Sanda is very effective, as is Savate, though neither of those make much of an appearance in MMA for various reasons (Sanda due to rarity in the west, Savate due to the fact that shoes change the kicking dynamic they use). In the grappling world Shuai Jiao is an incredibly old art that could best be compared to Judo but has different emphasis and mechanics and there are a host of folk wrestling styles that work but simply don't have a large competitive scene to produce fighters.
I don't think it's so much that MMA has revealed what
arts work but rather what
training methodologies produce consistent results. Even then it's not really a new revelation, it's just that the traditional martial arts world post 1950 was forced to reckon with it for the first time. For instance look at the Machida family and their karate, and make no mistake the Machida brothers are Karateka in their striking, why do they get by when other Karateka don't? They adopted the live training methods of arts like Boxing, Muay Thai, etc. For instance if you look at the Lei Tai tournaments held on the east coast and in China you'll see traditional Kung fu schools actually fighting, and looking reasonably competent. Why? Again because they adopted live training methods much like the Machida family did. Hell, Alan Orr is a Wing Chun instructor and has a fight team that competes reasonably successfully in low level MMA promotions, but again he adapted live training.
Most arts out there contain nearly all the same techniques for their given range, the thing that separates them in to ineffective or effective is how they are training.
As to Bruce Lee having any real impact on MMA, yeah that's marketing for you.
MMA predates even the 19th and early 20th century music hall and carnival matches. Pankration was a popular sport in the Greek world for nearly 1000 years.
When it comes to picking one art for self defense training I'd argue Judo over BJJ. Most BJJ schools I've been to have shit take down game, and I figure it's better to be able to decide where the fight goes. Not to mention that many Judo schools out there have a significant Ne-Waza component which will essentially teach you the basics of BJJ and certainly cover what you need for self defense. Not to mention that Judo is universally cheaper.
I sort of agree with you that unless martial arts is a significant hobby or you intend to fight that striking training can have a low return on investment given the danger involved. Though I do think it behooves someone interested in defending themselves to be at least familiar with the basics and to have sparred a couple of rounds to understand what it's like when someone intends on hitting you.
I have to hard disagree with you on Boxing. The supposed flaws it has "regular fighting" are greatly exaggerated. Torquing off the lead foot is only really done for throwing lead hooks and is necessary to maximize weight transfer on that line, throwing nearly any strike leaves you open to a take down. Every thing you do leaves some opening or another, it's a matter of knowing what those are and preparing accordingly. Broken hands are a risk with any punch, and in fact recent studies from modern bare knuckle leagues actually show less broken hands than in MMA or other gloved sports.
The bare knuckle boxers you see in old photos weren't punching the way they held their hands in those photos. They relied mostly on long range straight punches with a vertical fist. Most of what they did was a game of sniping straight shots and avoiding the clinch because holding and hitting was allowed, given that there were no time limits to rounds getting caught in the clinch could be a disaster.
Heel hooks and Ankle locks are starting to come in to their own in BJJ. Most of the aversion to them has been due to people not being careful with them in training. I trained in them without incident. Look up Roli Delgado, he's a BJJ black belt who has good material on the subject.
Western boxers still lead off the wrong foot even when throwing jabs. No one can keep their feet with their weight distributed like that.
Look at what happened to Tooney. Boxing world champ at 4 weight divisions (including heavyweight) in his career, with a record of 72-6. He could not keep his feet for 60 seconds against a 47 year old who clearly at the end of his MMA career.
As for the broken hands, do you know of any boxer who has been able to fight untaped and ungloved without hand injuries?
I also wouldn't use Machida as a justification for a style. One guy who had some success over a decade ago is an exception. If Karate worked, there should be plenty of people using it effectively. Same for all the other arts mentioned. Even PRIDE, Pancrase, ONE, Dream, and on and on, in the homeland of Karate, and no real representation there. Same goes for Wing Chun. One guy somewhere who teaches it doesn't make it an effective approach.
Chinese styles are terrible. China has it's own leagues because their fighters are getting stomped everywhere they try to go.
Heel Hooks and Ankle locks have always been around. They are banned because their is insufficient window between locking the move and tapping to safely avoid injury.
P.S. Where do you go? I've just moved to the west-side and have the option between Gracie Barra & Rodrigo Vaghi. Team Z isn't too far, but I don't want to drive if I don't have to.
P.P.S. For those of you who don't follow it much, St. Louis is and always has been a hotbed of MMA. Matt Hughes, Robbie Lawler, Lance Benoist, Tyron Woodley, Ben Askren, and plenty more famous pro's lived and trained in the metro area. We have an insane number of professional quality schools here.
Quote from: Two Crows on December 30, 2020, 05:45:43 PM
Absolutely NO ONE in MMA considers Bruce Lee to be the godfather of MMA.
Mentioning you practice JKD in MMA circles is almost certain to get you laughed at, and probably straight to your face. If not, then behind your back. It is considered a "joke" art, along with Aikido, Kung Fu (any style), virtually all TKD, Pencak Silat, and many others.
I used to be an Aikido Shodan until about 10-12 years ago when I woke up one morning and realized it was bullshit, and my Sensai was probably going to get some 90lb chick hurt. So I chucked it.
There's a Krav Maga place in my city. I've toyed with the idea of signing up with them, but haven't found the motivation so far.
Feel free to message me privately with whatever city you are in.
I probably won't know anything about it, but I'll bet some of the more hardcore guys at the school will. They should be able to give good suggestions on who is near you. Or at least who to avoid.
(Not promising, I might ask about "Little Rock", for example, and get blank stares.)
I only know the greater St. Louis area personally.
Quote from: Two Crows on December 30, 2020, 08:09:28 PM
Western boxers still lead off the wrong foot even when throwing jabs. No one can keep their feet with their weight distributed like that.
Look at what happened to Tooney. Boxing world champ at 4 weight divisions (including heavyweight) in his career, with a record of 72-6. He could not keep his feet for 60 seconds against a 47 year old who clearly at the end of his MMA career.
As for the broken hands, do you know of any boxer who has been able to fight untaped and ungloved without hand injuries?
I also wouldn't use Machida as a justification for a style. One guy who had some success over a decade ago is an exception. If Karate worked, there should be plenty of people using it effectively. Same for all the other arts mentioned. Even PRIDE, Pancrase, ONE, Dream, and on and on, in the homeland of Karate, and no real representation there. Same goes for Wing Chun. One guy somewhere who teaches it doesn't make it an effective approach.
Chinese styles are terrible. China has it's own leagues because their fighters are getting stomped everywhere they try to go.
Heel Hooks and Ankle locks have always been around. They are banned because their is insufficient window between locking the move and tapping to safely avoid injury.
P.S. Where do you go? I've just moved to the west-side and have the option between Gracie Barra & Rodrigo Vaghi. Team Z isn't too far, but I don't want to drive if I don't have to.
P.P.S. For those of you who don't follow it much, St. Louis is and always has been a hotbed of MMA. Matt Hughes, Robbie Lawler, Lance Benoist, Tyron Woodley, Ben Askren, and plenty more famous pro's lived and trained in the metro area. We have an insane number of professional quality schools here.
To be honest I'm having a hard time understanding what you mean when you say they lead off the wrong foot when jabbing?
Toney wasn't exactly a prime specimen either in that fight. He had been retired from boxing after a long decline which had seen him getting stopped by nobodies, and had ended up at heavyweight despite the fact that he had always been a natural middleweight. He was a fat old shell of a fighter. His boxing ability didn't cost him the fight, it was the fact that he had never grappled a day in his life.
For a more interesting example you should watch Ray Mercer vs Tim Sylvia. When they fought Mercer had been fat and washed up for ages, and Sylvia wasn't that long off his last UFC title fight, Mercer knocked him out seconds in to the first round. Or if your interested in kickboxing vs boxing watch Francis Botha vs Peter Aerts or Jerome Le Banner.
With the Machida thing, I think you're missing what I'm saying. I'm not saying that Machida makes all Karate good, I'm saying that Machida is proof that it can be fixed with the proper training methodology. The issue with arts like them isn't that the arts are useless, it's that they are trained in a sub-optimal fashion. What do all the most common effective arts have in common? They share incredibly similar training methods, drilling with resistance, sparring, conditioning, etc. You can apply those training methods to any art and dramatically improve quality, the problem is that traditional arts have been divorced from fighting for generations and there is little interest in those communities in fixing the problem despite the blue print being out there.
I used to train at West Side MMA under Roli Delgado, though at the time I was at their Benton gym under Kevin or Mark Sniff, I don't recall which it's been a minute. These days I box, I train with my father and brothers, my old man was a high level amateur boxer with multiple state and regional tournament wins and occasionally sparring partner for some 80's contenders. He was 151-6 when he hung it up.
If there is a father of MMA it's Gene Labell.
Quote from: myleftnut on December 30, 2020, 10:11:08 PM
If there is a father of MMA it's Gene Labell.
No.
Gene Lebell was an enforcer.
He was basically a mafia hitman with no gun.
Nobody wanted any Gene LeBell action ... kind of like Fedor in his prime. If he showed up, you f#$cked up, and on some level, you knew it.
In all seriousness, the pro wrestling circuit did keep a man like that. His name was Lou Thesz.
If the promoter said the "champ" had to lose the belt, and they refused to lose the match (under kayfabe), Thesz could be hired to come in and beat the sh!t out of the biggest, meanest face/heel the promotion had. It was literally his whole career. He was a "catch" wrestler (short for catch-as-catch-can), or hooker for short.
No joke.
Not hooker as in "lady of the evening", but "hooker" as Fish Hook. Planting your index finger into someone's cheek where the top and bottom lip meet ... and pulling back like a fish on a hook.
Like this:
(https://modestmomswrestling.mom/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/IMG_w9vtw4.jpg)
In other words, Lou would beat you and hurt you until you agreed to whatever match outcome the promoter wanted. No joke.
Lou grew up in the era where real "catch wrestling" (legit MMA) separated from Pro Wrestling (scripted entertainment). His dad was the real thing. He was too, but sold his services to the entertainment side (that is where the money was).
Guess where? St. Louis. This is where Thesz learned to utilize the guard against larger men.
Thesz trained and fought in Judo. He actually was part of an ongoing battle with a prominent Judo school. He lost against the best the world had to offer in his time, but he was still good enough to beat the crap out of the entertainers Pro Wrestling was offering in his day. He was, rightfully, a feared man.
Lou last defeated one of these large, muscle-bound, entertainers in a real match at the age of 62.
One of Lou's students defeated RENZO GRACIE (of the Gracie Jiu-Jitsu family) in a MMA match.
Outside of Ed Lewis, Lou was probably the most skilled fighter to participate in "Pro Wrestling", and yes, I'm including Ken Shamrock & Don Frye in that description.
Oh, and mentioning Ed Lewis, other than Lou Thesz, his most famous student was ....
Gene LeBell.
Quote from: Arkansan on December 30, 2020, 09:31:16 PMThese days I box, I train with my father and brothers, my old man was a high level amateur boxer with multiple state and regional tournament wins and occasionally sparring partner for some 80's contenders. He was 151-6 when he hung it up.
I won't knowingly criticize anything to do with parents or family.
I apologize, please ignore me.
P.S. 151 - 6 is awesome, under any circumstances. I wish I could ever be close to that good. Seriously. We all like to think we could be champs, but that kind of record shows he put up again, and again, again. That isn't luck. My respect.
Quote from: Two Crows on December 30, 2020, 09:10:13 PM
Feel free to message me privately with whatever city you are in.
I probably won't know anything about it, but I'll bet some of the more hardcore guys at the school will. They should be able to give good suggestions on who is near you. Or at least who to avoid.
(Not promising, I might ask about "Little Rock", for example, and get blank stares.)
I only know the greater St. Louis area personally.
Actually, yeah... I'm in Little Rock.
Quote from: Semaj Khan on December 30, 2020, 11:55:29 PM
Quote from: Two Crows on December 30, 2020, 09:10:13 PM
Feel free to message me privately with whatever city you are in.
I probably won't know anything about it, but I'll bet some of the more hardcore guys at the school will. They should be able to give good suggestions on who is near you. Or at least who to avoid.
(Not promising, I might ask about "Little Rock", for example, and get blank stares.)
I only know the greater St. Louis area personally.
Actually, yeah... I'm in Little Rock.
Don't f#%k with me.
Are you seriously in Little Rock?
Quote from: Two Crows on December 30, 2020, 11:57:48 PM
Quote from: Semaj Khan on December 30, 2020, 11:55:29 PM
Quote from: Two Crows on December 30, 2020, 09:10:13 PM
Feel free to message me privately with whatever city you are in.
I probably won't know anything about it, but I'll bet some of the more hardcore guys at the school will. They should be able to give good suggestions on who is near you. Or at least who to avoid.
(Not promising, I might ask about "Little Rock", for example, and get blank stares.)
I only know the greater St. Louis area personally.
Actually, yeah... I'm in Little Rock.
Don't f#%k with me.
Are you seriously in Little Rock?
Yup. Five years now.
Oh boy is this the martial arts thread now! Mine is middle distance running. Its hard to keep up with a 10 minute 2 mile.
Hey, Martial Arts is a LOT better than where it could have gone.
I may be old, but I don't remember Conan seeking consent very often ... it seemed more "Ready or not, here it comes ...."
Quote from: Two Crows on December 31, 2020, 12:46:09 AM
Hey, Martial Arts is a LOT better than where it could have gone.
I may be old, but I don't remember Conan seeking consent very often ... it seemed more "Ready or not, here it comes ...."
I think the story is Valley of Women or something similar, but in it Conan literally concludes thatcif he cant get a womans consent she isnt suited to him and that he should send her back to civilization.
EDIT: Its Vale of Lost Women.
Certainty looks like like it.
(https://i1.wp.com/rawlenyanzi.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Conan-carrying-a-woman.jpg?resize=209%2C300&ssl=1)
Quote from: Two Crows on December 30, 2020, 05:45:43 PM
Absolutely NO ONE in MMA considers Bruce Lee to be the godfather of MMA.
Israel Adesanya does. Sorry, had to get you for that flagrant gross overgeneralizing. ;)
Quote from: Jason Coplen on December 31, 2020, 05:05:14 PM
Quote from: Two Crows on December 30, 2020, 05:45:43 PM
Absolutely NO ONE in MMA considers Bruce Lee to be the godfather of MMA.
Israel Adesanya does. Sorry, had to get you for that flagrant gross overgeneralizing. ;)
You are right.
And all Dan I's students, most of the current JKD crowd, etc.
I was just trying to warn the board if they went to a gym, it's not a good topic.
Quote from: Semaj Khan on December 30, 2020, 11:58:50 PM
Quote from: Two Crows on December 30, 2020, 11:57:48 PM
Quote from: Semaj Khan on December 30, 2020, 11:55:29 PM
Quote from: Two Crows on December 30, 2020, 09:10:13 PM
Feel free to message me privately with whatever city you are in.
I probably won't know anything about it, but I'll bet some of the more hardcore guys at the school will. They should be able to give good suggestions on who is near you. Or at least who to avoid.
(Not promising, I might ask about "Little Rock", for example, and get blank stares.)
I only know the greater St. Louis area personally.
Actually, yeah... I'm in Little Rock.
Don't f#%k with me.
Are you seriously in Little Rock?
Yup. Five years now.
Hey I'm not far from you! Central Arkansas anyway.
Quote from: Two Crows on December 30, 2020, 11:32:53 PM
Quote from: Arkansan on December 30, 2020, 09:31:16 PMThese days I box, I train with my father and brothers, my old man was a high level amateur boxer with multiple state and regional tournament wins and occasionally sparring partner for some 80's contenders. He was 151-6 when he hung it up.
I won't knowingly criticize anything to do with parents or family.
I apologize, please ignore me.
P.S. 151 - 6 is awesome, under any circumstances. I wish I could ever be close to that good. Seriously. We all like to think we could be champs, but that kind of record shows he put up again, and again, again. That isn't luck. My respect.
Oh no it's totally cool. I'm not under the impression that Boxing is the end all be all of the martial arts world. Oh and thanks, yeah he was pretty good in his day though heaven knows he paid for it, his body is basically shot now.