Quote from: jhkim on November 09, 2020, 11:06:12 PM

Quote from: Batjon on November 09, 2020, 10:08:12 PM
Thankfully I still have the original version of the PDF BEFORE the virtue-signaling changes.  How does it make any sense to rename this talent trill "Unarmed Talents" when more than one talent in the tree if for melee weapons?

Thanks, Batjon! So it looks like it is both armed and unarmed, but it definitely has a specifically Asian connection in style and by specifying Vendhya and Khitai (which are Hyboria's India and China). So in the original, "martial arts" is synonymous with "Asian-style martial arts". That's similar to the position of the half-Chinese commenter you quoted.

I agree more with VisionStorm, though.

Quote from: VisionStorm on November 09, 2020, 06:44:20 PM
Unfortunately that's true, and it came about after the term "Martial Arts" became associated with eastern unarmed styles with the influx of Martial Arts films in the 70s, which continued in the 80s and somewhat the 90s.

However, that was at the turn of the last century. We're living in 2020 now. HEMA is all over YouTube. People know about Capoeira, Krav Maga and other non-Eastern martial arts as well. People should know "Martial Arts" extends beyond just eastern styles of unarmed combat by now, and even if they don't they're still in error and need to be corrected, not change the meaning of the term "Martial Arts" cuz some people are idiots.

This was a pet peeve of mine even in the 90s (the decade I started playing), and I would frequently correct people when it came up during play or character creation, and point out that swinging a sword itself was a martial art.

The term "martial arts" shouldn't mean just "Asian martial arts". It's a generic term, and should be inclusive of styles of fighting from Europe, Africa, and the Americas.

Yeah, I can get other people's criticism of how Modiphius handled this and agree with some of their points, but ultimately I think that Martial Arts should not be limited to just "Asian Martial Arts". Even when it comes to some of the mysticism and mystique surrounding martial arts practices, western traditions also had that. The Viking Berserkers were believed to have quasi-magic powers involving spirit animals, like wolves and bears, that granted them unusual abilities and allowed them to enter their rage. There were legendary accounts of Celtic warriors doing quasi-magical stuff as well. These things are not unique to eastern martial arts, its just that eastern cultures managed to preserve their warrior traditions onto modern times, while western warrior traditions fell to the wayside, so are not as prevalent in the public consciousness. And a lot of these martial arts tricks are just biomechanics. It doesn't matter what tradition you practice, if you practice martial arts you're going to be able to figure out some of these maneuvers regardless of origin.

Quote from: VisionStorm on November 09, 2020, 06:44:20 PM
This was a pet peeve of mine even in the 90s (the decade I started playing), and I would frequently correct people when it came up during play or character creation, and point out that swinging a sword itself was a martial art.

Quote from: Spinachcat on November 09, 2020, 07:07:02 PM
Hush it with your huwhite supremacy VisionStorm! Next you'll be saying MMA fans might know martial arts goes beyond chopsocky flicks.

Quote from: jhkim on November 09, 2020, 11:06:12 PM
The term "martial arts" shouldn't mean just "Asian martial arts". It's a generic term, and should be inclusive of styles of fighting from Europe, Africa, and the Americas.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 10, 2020, 04:34:40 AM
This is the kind of nerdy nitpicking that makes my eyes glaze over. Technically correct, and sucks all the fun out of the room like a miniature black hole of awkwardness.

I'm actually more a fan of chop-socky flicks than MMA -- but even so, I think it's obviously wrong to call MMA nerdy, unfun nitpicking. I think MMA and growing beyond just Asian styles has made martial arts more interesting over the last three decades. There's also gotten some more interesting fight choreography in movies once filmmakers realized fight choreography isn't just for chop-socky.

Isn't jeet kun do (Bruce Lee's 'way of the intercepting fist') considered the ancestor for most modern MMA because of its pragmatism?

This feels like a lot of people faffing about because they want to look good for their buddies.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 10, 2020, 11:36:43 AM
Isn't jeet kun do (Bruce Lee's 'way of the intercepting fist') considered the ancestor for most modern MMA because of its pragmatism?

This feels like a lot of people faffing about because they want to look good for their buddies.

Not really.  He was the first well known person in the USA to try to get people to divorce themselves from a pure style loyalty and advocate for learning a bit of grappling.  But he was an actor, and amazing one at that.  His ability to practically apply martial arts (fight) is entirely up in the air.  The Gracies were probably the biggest promoters of what has become modern MMA, and as they predate Bruce by a good long ways, I can not give Lee credit for that.  He did encourage cross training though, which very, very few people did after he promoted it.  So I would say his actual effect and influence was minimal.  He was ahead of the times so to speak as to what he said here in the US, but Judo kept dying while Karate kept growing after his book and ideology was widespread. 
   Funny thing is his number 1 (Dan Inosantos) is probably the most cross trained dude on the planet, he can function with striking, grappling (black belt at least in BJJ), knife fighting and so forth.  But again, not as influential as you might think.  The UFC and the Gracies, no  question are the only reason MMA, and it being all over pop culture are a thing.  I think Bruce was smart enough to tell the people the truth, but in his movies he showed them what they wanted to believe.

Modiphius you shower of dumb fucks. There are plenty of Western Martial Arts.

W. E. Fairbairn ring any bells, No?

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 10, 2020, 12:10:19 PM
Modiphius you shower of dumb fucks. There are plenty of Western Martial Arts.

W. E. Fairbairn ring any bells, No?

Tangential question: what happened to Fairbairn's training and trainees after WWII? From everything I can find, Fairbairn's training simply vanished, except for a series of publications from Paladin Press in the 70s and 80s. Or was it subsumed into other training and Fairbairn's influences left unmentioned?

Quote from: RandyB on November 10, 2020, 01:31:06 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 10, 2020, 12:10:19 PM
Modiphius you shower of dumb fucks. There are plenty of Western Martial Arts.

W. E. Fairbairn ring any bells, No?

Tangential question: what happened to Fairbairn's training and trainees after WWII? From everything I can find, Fairbairn's training simply vanished, except for a series of publications from Paladin Press in the 70s and 80s. Or was it subsumed into other training and Fairbairn's influences left unmentioned?

Government officials who make decisions about what soldiers learn is largely based on who is the best salesman.  Has about zero to do with the most practical.  They were learning kung fu pressure points at one point.  Now though, the guys who sold combatives to the  army (I know one of the dudes) based heavily on BJJ, KIckboxing, and knife techniques (that they flat out took from Fairbain) were excellent salesmen as well as extremely skilled at practical martial arts.  So the answer regarding fairbane is his spirit and many of his techniques (especially around knife techniques) are back in the army, just not under his name necessarily.

oops meant Fairbairn

Quote from: MigRib on November 10, 2020, 04:58:59 AM

Quote from: Jaeger on November 10, 2020, 02:04:59 AM

Quote from: TJS on November 09, 2020, 10:53:27 PM
It's bemused me for a while that Modiphius both publish Conan (and place such an emphasis on being 'faithful' to Howard) and on being woke.

That's always quite obviously involved some kind of weird mental gymnastics on some level.

The ability to hold two contradictory positions, and believe in both of them, is a prerequisite of leftist thought.

The expected delivery of the Conan Kickstarter was 2016, so the game line has suffered long delays. I don't think they had decided to go woke back then yet. The only 2d20 game line launched before Conan was Mutant Chronicles, which, by Woke standards, is pretty "insensitive" too.

It was obviously dissonant when it was released however.  Conan stories are full of scantily clad young women who are all overcome by Conan's inherent manliness.  It may have been a kind of cynicism on Howard's part (I think there's a lot of cynicism  in Conan stories, I feel there often not his best ones, and the best bits are often on  the peripheries), but it's part of the stories.

The portrayal of women in Conan 2d20 and it's artwork is somewhat different.  I don't think that's a bad thing - and I don't think it's particularly necessary to be faithful to the nature of the Conan stories to run a game in the Hyborian age (And I certainly wouldn't be), but they do make such a big thing about how they're faithful to Howard and to the original stories that it's jarring.

Quote from: TJS on November 10, 2020, 01:57:25 PM

Quote from: MigRib on November 10, 2020, 04:58:59 AM

Quote from: Jaeger on November 10, 2020, 02:04:59 AM

Quote from: TJS on November 09, 2020, 10:53:27 PM
It's bemused me for a while that Modiphius both publish Conan (and place such an emphasis on being 'faithful' to Howard) and on being woke.

That's always quite obviously involved some kind of weird mental gymnastics on some level.

The ability to hold two contradictory positions, and believe in both of them, is a prerequisite of leftist thought.

The expected delivery of the Conan Kickstarter was 2016, so the game line has suffered long delays. I don't think they had decided to go woke back then yet. The only 2d20 game line launched before Conan was Mutant Chronicles, which, by Woke standards, is pretty "insensitive" too.

It was obviously dissonant when it was released however.  Conan stories are full of scantily clad young women who are all overcome by Conan's inherent manliness.  It may have been a kind of cynicism on Howard's part (I think there's a lot of cynicism  in Conan stories, I feel there often not his best ones, and the best bits are often on  the peripheries), but it's part of the stories.

The portrayal of women in Conan 2d20 and it's artwork is somewhat different.  I don't think that's a bad thing - and I don't think it's particularly necessary to be faithful to the nature of the Conan stories to run a game in the Hyborian age (And I certainly wouldn't be), but they do make such a big thing about how they're faithful to Howard and to the original stories that it's jarring.

Hmmm, that didn't occur to me, but yeah, at the time they were probably on the soft side of political correctness. Dared to make promisses about being faithful to the source material, but not enough to show nipples.

Quote from: oggsmash on November 10, 2020, 01:37:52 PM

Quote from: RandyB on November 10, 2020, 01:31:06 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 10, 2020, 12:10:19 PM
Modiphius you shower of dumb fucks. There are plenty of Western Martial Arts.

W. E. Fairbairn ring any bells, No?

Tangential question: what happened to Fairbairn's training and trainees after WWII? From everything I can find, Fairbairn's training simply vanished, except for a series of publications from Paladin Press in the 70s and 80s. Or was it subsumed into other training and Fairbairn's influences left unmentioned?

Government officials who make decisions about what soldiers learn is largely based on who is the best salesman.  Has about zero to do with the most practical.  They were learning kung fu pressure points at one point.  Now though, the guys who sold combatives to the  army (I know one of the dudes) based heavily on BJJ, KIckboxing, and knife techniques (that they flat out took from Fairbain) were excellent salesmen as well as extremely skilled at practical martial arts.  So the answer regarding fairbane is his spirit and many of his techniques (especially around knife techniques) are back in the army, just not under his name necessarily.

I share your observations about military training.

So by this, Fairbairn himself is persona non grata, but his training has been "rebranded' and assimilated into others' work. Definitely a strong possibility.

Quote from: RandyB on November 10, 2020, 02:03:13 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on November 10, 2020, 01:37:52 PM

Quote from: RandyB on November 10, 2020, 01:31:06 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 10, 2020, 12:10:19 PM
Modiphius you shower of dumb fucks. There are plenty of Western Martial Arts.

W. E. Fairbairn ring any bells, No?

Tangential question: what happened to Fairbairn's training and trainees after WWII? From everything I can find, Fairbairn's training simply vanished, except for a series of publications from Paladin Press in the 70s and 80s. Or was it subsumed into other training and Fairbairn's influences left unmentioned?

Government officials who make decisions about what soldiers learn is largely based on who is the best salesman.  Has about zero to do with the most practical.  They were learning kung fu pressure points at one point.  Now though, the guys who sold combatives to the  army (I know one of the dudes) based heavily on BJJ, KIckboxing, and knife techniques (that they flat out took from Fairbain) were excellent salesmen as well as extremely skilled at practical martial arts.  So the answer regarding fairbane is his spirit and many of his techniques (especially around knife techniques) are back in the army, just not under his name necessarily.

I share your observations about military training.

So by this, Fairbairn himself is persona non grata, but his training has been "rebranded' and assimilated into others' work. Definitely a strong possibility.

Hey I can tell you it is a 100 percent fact.  Like I said I know the guy who cooked up the SoCOM training stuff and was Larsen's less publicly known partner in pitching it to the Army.  Other branches all have some version of the combatives they sold, and I know as I said Fairbairns system is the root of their blade work.  But branding matters, and judging from the ENORMOUS compensation the fellow I know has gotten from the US Army, I guess it matters  a whole lot.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 10, 2020, 12:10:19 PM
Modiphius you shower of dumb fucks. There are plenty of Western Martial Arts.

W. E. Fairbairn ring any bells, No?

Agreed. Game mechanically, it's an interesting question. Originally, they had a talent tree for "martial arts" which is actually for Asian martial arts - with a lot of emphasis on unarmed but also some armed technique. That's wrong, a number of people seem to agree.

One question is, should they:

1) Keep the same talent tree and just rename it "Asian Martial Arts"? Then they could potentially add another talent tree for "European Martial Arts".

2) Instead split it up, and have a "Unarmed Martial Arts" talent tree and add armed techniques into other armed fighting talent trees.

3) Some other option?

Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2020, 02:19:11 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 10, 2020, 12:10:19 PM
Modiphius you shower of dumb fucks. There are plenty of Western Martial Arts.

W. E. Fairbairn ring any bells, No?

Agreed. Game mechanically, it's an interesting question. Originally, they had a talent tree for "martial arts" which is actually for Asian martial arts - with a lot of emphasis on unarmed but also some armed technique. That's wrong, a number of people seem to agree.

One question is, should they:

1) Keep the same talent tree and just rename it "Asian Martial Arts"? Then they could potentially add another talent tree for "European Martial Arts".

2) Instead split it up, and have a "Unarmed Martial Arts" talent tree and add armed techniques into other armed fighting talent trees.

3) Some other option?

just leave it alone because the only people who would have ANY issue with it at all were never going to buy the book in the first place?

Quote from: oggsmash on November 10, 2020, 11:59:43 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 10, 2020, 11:36:43 AM
Isn't jeet kun do (Bruce Lee's 'way of the intercepting fist') considered the ancestor for most modern MMA because of its pragmatism?

This feels like a lot of people faffing about because they want to look good for their buddies.

Not really.  He was the first well known person in the USA to try to get people to divorce themselves from a pure style loyalty and advocate for learning a bit of grappling.  But he was an actor, and amazing one at that.  His ability to practically apply martial arts (fight) is entirely up in the air.  The Gracies were probably the biggest promoters of what has become modern MMA, and as they predate Bruce by a good long ways, I can not give Lee credit for that.  He did encourage cross training though, which very, very few people did after he promoted it.  So I would say his actual effect and influence was minimal.  He was ahead of the times so to speak as to what he said here in the US, but Judo kept dying while Karate kept growing after his book and ideology was widespread. 
   Funny thing is his number 1 (Dan Inosantos) is probably the most cross trained dude on the planet, he can function with striking, grappling (black belt at least in BJJ), knife fighting and so forth.  But again, not as influential as you might think.  The UFC and the Gracies, no  question are the only reason MMA, and it being all over pop culture are a thing.  I think Bruce was smart enough to tell the people the truth, but in his movies he showed them what they wanted to believe.

The concept of cross training, breaking fights down in to different ranges, the necessity of having skill in all ranges etc, go back even further than the Gracies. Ancient Greek Pankration was essentially anything goes fighting that was practiced for nearly a 1000 years. Edward Barton Wright combined English Boxing, Savate, Jiu Jitsu, and folk styles of Wrestling back in the late 1800's, his gym had instructors in each art and cross training was considered essential. French self defense exponents were doing the same thing from the late 1800's to the 1910's, combining Savate, Wrestling, and Jiu Jitsu in to a system typically called Defense Dans La Rue.

Hell France had it's "UFC 1" moment in around 1890 or so when a challenge match between a Savate champ and a local Jiu Jitsu instructor ended in a swift take down and arm bar. This sparked a cross training craze, and challenge matches between styles became all the rage. The aforementioned E.B. Wright and many other noted European martial artists of the times took up many public challenges.

Bruce Lee's reputation is mostly due to his silver screen fame. There's really only one account of him fighting, his challenge with Wong Jack Man, that has substantial witness support and the outcome of it is highly contested. Speaking as someone who spent years in the JKD world I personally think Lee lost that fight, though his victory has become popular narrative simply by dint of his students being the most vociferous.