Quote from: Cranewings;492075All they had to do was not take the bait or use literally anything a 5 year old could think of to get around it.

I would have used dynamite.

Quote from: B.T.;492081Problem: you're playing with an old school style in a new school game.
Solution: stop.

Trying to bring realism to D&D is an exercise in frustration for both players and GM.  Dropping a bear trap on a character's head and saying "save or die" doesn't work in 3e D&D because characters are expected to be tough enough to take a giant's greataxe to the chest repeatedly.  It also doesn't seem particularly fair (then again, I've always been against "save or die" for that reason).

This thread also serves as an object lesson in including all the information in the opening post.

So do swords, but D&D characters can take multiples of them.  When you can explain that, you can explain how taking a bear trap to the face would not be lethal.

Your problem with hit points and how a sword to the face being livable but  trap to the face not is something I've talked about, at length, in other discussions on hit points. It isn't frustrating to me. I like how I'm doing hit points and have lots of rules covering it. It is besides the point anyway. Pathfinder includes random tables for monsters, monsters that are invulnerable for their CR against certain groups of supposedly balanced player characters, and a whole world of save or fail spells. I can run RAW pathfinder and have the group put to sleep and killed by the same goblin, roll a dragon and kill them with it, or anything else, so complaining you don't like how I attribute damage to different effects is besides the point. The game does goofy things with that already.

QuoteI like how I'm doing hit points and have lots of rules covering it.

If you're going to run the game that way, then don't complain about player deaths.

It's not that hard to figure out: if you include "save or die" traps, then you're going to have players who save, and you're going to have players who die.  Given how 3e's math works, you're probably going to have more of those who die.

Quote from: Cranewings;491979I think I actually find it more boring than they do. The main fun I get from GMing is building things up and having cool stuff happen. I don't get into it if the players fail too much, on the other hand, I don't get into it if it isn't difficult and / or "realistic." The main problem is just that the players are having fun, and then they think being stupid will be fun, and then I kill them. Like I said, I offered to change my style to let them do that kind of thing and tried to sound positive, but they refused. They do seem disappointed when they die, or even when they lose something without dying.

Love the title of this thread but I don't really see what's it about. I mean being dissapointed when their characters die or when they lose something is part of the game and of no real consequence if they are having fun, right? Do you find the games boring ?

Regards,
David R

Quote from: soltakss;492065Oh, I understood that. He had a chance to avoid the surprise attack. That's fine.

What I have trouble with is the idea that a bear-trap automatically kills the PC.

Hmmm...  D&D is a pretty cuthroat game when you come right down to it, though.  You make a bad dice roll on a saving throw and you're history.  

For example, a Bodak (MM2, pg 19) - Gaze attack: save vs. death magic or you're dead. One roll. You miss it and that's it, regardless of what level you are or your class.

I agree with you that it shouldn't be so easy to die, but then again, that's what we all grew up on.

Also, if the player is acting recklessly then "you reap what you sow".

Quote from: B.T.;492094If you're going to run the game that way, then don't complain about player deaths.

It's not that hard to figure out: if you include "save or die" traps, then you're going to have players who save, and you're going to have players who die.  Given how 3e's math works, you're probably going to have more of those who die.

I'm not complaining that they died. I'm complaining that they are stupid.

Quote from: Cranewings;491843Same player has died 4 times now in three months. This time some of the other players told him he needs to stop fucking around.

Wow, you're an impatient bunch. I've had players who lost 3 characters in one session.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;492172Wow, you're an impatient bunch. I've had players who lost 3 characters in one session.

I've read how you run games though. I'd love to play something that cut throat but I'm mostly alone on that here.

If I was a player in cranewings' game I would start mounting beartraps on ten foot poles and the faces of shields...

Quote from: Cranewings;492177I've read how you run games though. I'd love to play something that cut throat but I'm mostly alone on that here.

I doubt it. It's one of those things where the theory is different to the practice.

Once players have a few characters die, they either smarten up and do things properly and have fun, or else enjoy having them die and have fun. Either way they all have fun.

You'd think the idiot player's behaviour would annoy the others, but what you find is that the party adapts. "Johnno's character goes first!" And everyone has fun.

Once you embrace the ugly bastard Stupid, you find he turns into his illegitimate brother Smart or his full-brother Funny. Both are good to hang out with.

I refer you to my sig...well, the first bit @ least!

Quote from: Planet Algol;492181If I was a player in cranewings' game I would start mounting beartraps on ten foot poles and the faces of shields...

I only give hp past first level to people actively defending themselves. They have snuck up on and oneshot npcs in the past.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;492183I doubt it. It's one of those things where the theory is different to the practice.

Once players have a few characters die, they either smarten up and do things properly and have fun, or else enjoy having them die and have fun. Either way they all have fun.

You'd think the idiot player's behaviour would annoy the others, but what you find is that the party adapts. "Johnno's character goes first!" And everyone has fun.

Once you embrace the ugly bastard Stupid, you find he turns into his illegitimate brother Smart or his full-brother Funny. Both are good to hang out with.

Good point.

I really, really think funny is funnier when people are trying to be serious. Games are usually funny even when no one individual is trying to be funny, like the movie "Hot Fuzz." when people start dying on purpose, it's only about as funny as Tom and Jerry to me. O mean, it's kind of funny, but not enough to warrant going through the trouble of hosting a game. We could just play battlefield and I could watch him fly planes into the ground.

Quote from: Cranewings;492203I really, really think funny is funnier when people are trying to be serious.

This deserves some emphasis. By far the most memorably hilarious moments have occurred in my games when the humor was innocent - unintentional - spontaneous.

When someone is trying hard to be funny, and doing so for an extended period of time - it's occasionally worth a chuckle, and usually just gets boring quickly.

Paranoia is funny for a session or so. This is why people usually don't play long campaigns of it.

Quote from: Cranewings;492075Sorry man, it is reasonable. Bear traps to the face kill. No two ways around it.

Oh, he didn't have a helmet on, then?

Did he step into the bear trap?  They are meant to be staked to the ground and have something heavy step  on them, not to be swung at someone below.

Wasn't the PC a dwarf? Quite  short are dwarves, quite hard to hit with a bear trap from above.

Quote from: Cranewings;492075I think it was perfectly reasonable.

Oh, I know that. I just don't agree.

Quote from: Cranewings;492075All they had to do was not take the bait or use literally anything a 5 year old could think of to get around it.

I'd have burst through the wall, personally, element of surprise and the goblin above the door would have been confused.

Quote from: Cranewings;492075Walking blindly in = death.

I hope you remember this when your PCs do something similar later on and kill a powerful NPC with a beartrap dropped on his head.