This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.

Author Topic: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.  (Read 8466 times)

Omega

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • O
  • Posts: 17102
Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
« Reply #90 on: August 22, 2020, 04:58:23 PM »
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1145995
I'd toss in one minor distinguo that for me it's less about being "forced" to have it in a game and more about the moral browbeating on how it should be included if at all, including the implicit assumption that the players who want to play it should be deferred to as the highest priority, even at the expense of the game. (Making sure everyone is happy is a priority, but it isn't the highest priority if the alternative is ruining the game.)

Yeah that is where resistance can start. Not usually as severe as the reaction to force. But it can certainly grate on the nerves depending on the situation.

It is similar to any other situation where a player wants to do X that either isnt covered in the rules, or does not fit the campaign or setting even if allowable. How flexible the system or DM is will be the telling factor. Along with how reasonable or not a request is.

jhkim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11749
Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
« Reply #91 on: August 22, 2020, 05:44:16 PM »
Quote from: LiferGamer;1145984
In short I see three broad stands on this here, and we're going in circles:
  • People that are ok with disabled players, and possibly characters, that recognize the wheelchair is the worst solution in D&D.
  • People that are ok with disabled players, but think disabled characters are a non-starter.
  • People that would freely allow disabled characters, but then remove the disability for game purposes making it just cosmetic.
I'm pretty sure we're all with just running slightly nuanced versions of one of those arguments, with some are being misrepresented as

- Hating disabled players.
or
- Forcing me to have this crap in my game.

Best summary I can come up with.

I don't think I fit with any of your three. I am OK with both disabled players and disabled characters, and it's on a case-by-case basis whether a character disability is a cosmetic feature (like Daredevil being blind) or whether it is a real game limitation (like Charles Xavier requiring a wheelchair). Previously I gave examples earlier of similar characters from previous campaigns. One of them (modern-day superpowers) was largely cosmetic wheelchair use because he could use his electrical powers to use his legs for limited periods. One of them (the Alphas game) had a tiring condition that was a serious in-game limitation where he walked with a cane and had to frequently stop, but he also had an awesome power.

Mostly, I find the arguments for position #2 to be hollow - because a lot of them assert things that don't match with my experience in games.


Quote from: GnomeWorks;1145994
Regardless, I don't see a band of adventurers being okay with bringing a wheelchair-bound individual with them. That seems like just too much of a liability, in my mind, to the adventuring life. People in wheelchairs in reality have to be accommodated for in rather extreme ways, and I don't see how a naturally-formed cave system would be accessible to them in any meaningful sense.
This is a straightforward issue of game balance. In D&D, adventuring parties regularly bring along a 98-pound weak bookworm, even if they don't have the physical skills to keep up with others in the party. The weakling probably needs help climbing over a wall, and might even need lifting at some point. But they bring corresponding strengths to the party because of their magical abilities. In military terms, they could be thought of as specialists or artillery.

A character without the use of their legs would need to have other abilities to compensate. Once they have enough other other abilities, then they would be a balanced member of the party. If they have even more abilities, they would become overpowered.

Spinachcat

  • Toxic SocioCat
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • S
  • Posts: 14805
Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
« Reply #92 on: August 22, 2020, 07:49:48 PM »
This entire "magic wheelchair = disability representation" harkens back to the point buy arguments regarding Disadvantages in games like Hero and GURPS. AKA, if a disadvantage doesn't actually disadvantage the character, its not a disadvantage.

Under SJW ideology, a disability can't be a disadvantage because that's "ableist". Thus, any disabled character must be equal, preferably BETTER than any able character. It's an offshoot of the cringey "handicapable" nonsense from the 90s.


Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1145995
I'd toss in one minor distinguo that for me it's less about being "forced" to have it in a game and more about the moral browbeating on how it should be included if at all, including the implicit assumption that the players who want to play it should be deferred to as the highest priority, even at the expense of the game.


SJWs don't need to force when threatening is so much more effective because the hobby (and nation) is full of weaklings.

"OBEY or we'll call you an -ist!!" is enough to silence the masses and ostracize most of those who oppose them.  


Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1145995
(Making sure everyone is happy is a priority, but it isn't the highest priority if the alternative is ruining the game.)


I'm the Game Master. Not the Happy Master. Players are responsible for their own fun.

If someone wants to play a disabled character, that's fine. Their disability is going to cause disadvantages and their PC might not live long enough to afford the magic/tech to nullify those disadvantages.

Mishihari

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • M
  • Posts: 989
Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
« Reply #93 on: August 23, 2020, 05:11:06 AM »
I'm fine with a player who wants a character with whatever disability in my game.  The caveat is that I'm not going to change the game-fiction of my world to accommodate them.  Choices and differences have real consequences.  If not, what's the point in having them?  

If the game is traveller and the PC has a grav-belt, great, that fits.  If he's in a gritty low-fantasy game and in a wheel chair, there will be challenges.  If you don't want the challenges, then don't make that character.  

I'm not going to go out of my way to target the character's weakness, but there are going to be problems.  To quote Po from Kung Fu Panda, "Ah, my old enemy, stairs..."  If the party is carrying the handicapped PC and his wheelchair down the stairs and the wandering monster wanders on by, it's going to be tough.  I don't pull my punches as a GM, so the handicapped PC will probably die before his comrades.  When it's time for his next character, the player can either learn from his experience or not, it's up to him.

SHARK

  • The Great Shark Hope
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5048
Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
« Reply #94 on: August 23, 2020, 05:38:41 AM »
Quote from: Spinachcat;1146034
This entire "magic wheelchair = disability representation" harkens back to the point buy arguments regarding Disadvantages in games like Hero and GURPS. AKA, if a disadvantage doesn't actually disadvantage the character, its not a disadvantage.

Under SJW ideology, a disability can't be a disadvantage because that's "ableist". Thus, any disabled character must be equal, preferably BETTER than any able character. It's an offshoot of the cringey "handicapable" nonsense from the 90s.




SJWs don't need to force when threatening is so much more effective because the hobby (and nation) is full of weaklings.

"OBEY or we'll call you an -ist!!" is enough to silence the masses and ostracize most of those who oppose them.  




I'm the Game Master. Not the Happy Master. Players are responsible for their own fun.

If someone wants to play a disabled character, that's fine. Their disability is going to cause disadvantages and their PC might not live long enough to afford the magic/tech to nullify those disadvantages.

Greetings!

THE HAPPY MASTER!!!!:D

Exactly. Everyone knows that handicapped characters are heavily disadvantaged. That's why no one typically wants to have a character in a fucking wheelchair or being fucking blind. No, there's no cybernetic bowl of cornflakes with that. You have no legs, or your blind, or paralyzed on the whole left side of your body, guess what?

Life is hard.:D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
"It is the Marine Corps that will strip away the façade so easily confused with self. It is the Corps that will offer the pain needed to buy the truth. And at last, each will own the privilege of looking inside himself  to discover what truly resides there. Comfort is an illusion. A false security b

SHARK

  • The Great Shark Hope
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5048
Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
« Reply #95 on: August 23, 2020, 05:43:39 AM »
Quote from: Mishihari;1146093
I'm fine with a player who wants a character with whatever disability in my game.  The caveat is that I'm not going to change the game-fiction of my world to accommodate them.  Choices and differences have real consequences.  If not, what's the point in having them?  

If the game is traveller and the PC has a grav-belt, great, that fits.  If he's in a gritty low-fantasy game and in a wheel chair, there will be challenges.  If you don't want the challenges, then don't make that character.  

I'm not going to go out of my way to target the character's weakness, but there are going to be problems.  To quote Po from Kung Fu Panda, "Ah, my old enemy, stairs..."  If the party is carrying the handicapped PC and his wheelchair down the stairs and the wandering monster wanders on by, it's going to be tough.  I don't pull my punches as a GM, so the handicapped PC will probably die before his comrades.  When it's time for his next character, the player can either learn from his experience or not, it's up to him.

Greetings!

Damn right, my friend! Wheelchair Bob gets eaten the fuck up, first! I find it hilarious all these people want to make a severely handicapped character somehow survivable in an adventuring environment. Forget that nonsense. Wheelchair Bob or Blind Betty needs to be hanging out in the Library or a special community center--not attempting to crawl through ancient labyrinths deep underground, and fighting monsters in dungeons.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
"It is the Marine Corps that will strip away the façade so easily confused with self. It is the Corps that will offer the pain needed to buy the truth. And at last, each will own the privilege of looking inside himself  to discover what truly resides there. Comfort is an illusion. A false security b

Mishihari

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • M
  • Posts: 989
Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
« Reply #96 on: August 23, 2020, 06:12:04 AM »
Quote from: SHARK;1146098
Wheelchair Bob or Blind Betty needs to be hanging out in the Library or a special community center--not attempting to crawl through ancient labyrinths deep underground, and fighting monsters in dungeons.

To be fair, I've seen examples of handicapped characters that managed to be pretty awesome adventurers in fiction, and I would not mind such in my game.  If the player is smart enough and the character is tough enough to make it work, then more power to them.  

One example is Cho-Hag in one of Eddings' books.  His legs were damaged by something like polio, but on his horse he's equal to any fighter.  That doesn't match my experience riding, but whatever, I'm certainly not enough of an expert to say it's not possible.  Or the guy with no legs from the first Bourne movie.  He and Jason fight and Jason kills him, but it's a close thing.  Bourne's girlfriend is like WTH, man?  But he tells her "You saw an old handicapped man.  I saw the most dangerous man in Europe.  If I hadn't killed him I would be dead."  Or something like that.

The point is that they had disabilities with real consequences and managed to be badass anyway.  If the author or screenwriter had waved his magic wand and removed the consequences of their disabilities then their success would be lame rather than awesome. Similarly in my game, if a PC has a disability with real consequences and manages to kick ass anyway, that's awesome.  I'm happy to give them the chance to do that.  He'll probably die instead, but whatever, it's a game.  I'm not going to take away his chance to be awesome by removing the consequences of the disability.  And if he fails, I'll try to make sure he gets a good death - glorious, hilarious, or whatever seems right at the moment.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2020, 06:28:47 AM by Mishihari »

jhkim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11749
Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
« Reply #97 on: August 23, 2020, 08:53:40 AM »
Quote from: Mishihari;1146093
I'm fine with a player who wants a character with whatever disability in my game.  The caveat is that I'm not going to change the game-fiction of my world to accommodate them.  Choices and differences have real consequences.  If not, what's the point in having them?
OK, but there's a difference between *character creation* and *game-play*. I've played a lot of game systems where hindrances or disadvantages gain some additional points to the player -- like Savage Worlds, World of Darkness, GURPS, or HERO. In game systems where there are no point rewards for hindrances, then unsurprisingly players tend to not have any such hindrances.

In a broader conceptual framework, this is a question of system mastery. Some GMs prefer to reward players for using the rules to design the most powerful character possible. Character creation is a competition, and if a player creates a suboptimal character, then that's the player's fault and they have to live with it. Personally, as a GM, I'm all about challenging players *during the game* -- but I generally prefer character creation to not be a competition. I don't want players competing to choose the most powerful options in the system. Instead, I try to work with the players so that the characters are roughly balanced at the start, and then challenge them to use those characters the best *in the game*.

As I see it, making the characters roughly balanced at the start isn't coddling -- it's enabling more real competition.

Razor 007

  • Razor 007
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1319
Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
« Reply #98 on: August 24, 2020, 11:22:40 PM »
So.... Assuming that a Combat Wheelchair exists in medieval fantasy; can you imagine it's scarcity and worth in gold pieces?  Perhaps a genius constructed one for his disabled child?  It's pretty much an artifact; a one of a kind item.  Can you imagine the cost?
I need you to roll a perception check.....

jhkim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11749
Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
« Reply #99 on: August 25, 2020, 01:34:17 AM »
Quote from: Razor 007;1146331
So.... Assuming that a Combat Wheelchair exists in medieval fantasy; can you imagine it's scarcity and worth in gold pieces?  Perhaps a genius constructed one for his disabled child?  It's pretty much an artifact; a one of a kind item.  Can you imagine the cost?
Obviously, it will vary depending on the game world. In most worlds, animated constructs don't seem that rare. For example, the Artificer class for 5E includes a "Steel Defender" feature for the Battle Smith that gives the PC a speed 40 construct. My son is GMing a campaign where one of the PCs is a gnome artificer who rides his Steel Defender pretty much all the time. (Since he's small and it's medium-size, they can fit anywhere a human can.) That's better than a combat wheelchair, and it's a standard class feature for 3rd level.

I'd say it should be somewhat easier to create than animated armor (which is a standard creature) or a steel defender (which is a standard class feature). It can move, but it doesn't have it's own mind. Obviously, any new creation is subject to whatever ruling the GM makes. But I don't see that it's inherently all that magically difficult.

Mishihari

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • M
  • Posts: 989
Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
« Reply #100 on: August 25, 2020, 06:32:57 AM »
Quote from: jhkim;1146115
OK, but there's a difference between *character creation* and *game-play*. I've played a lot of game systems where hindrances or disadvantages gain some additional points to the player -- like Savage Worlds, World of Darkness, GURPS, or HERO. In game systems where there are no point rewards for hindrances, then unsurprisingly players tend to not have any such hindrances.

In a broader conceptual framework, this is a question of system mastery. Some GMs prefer to reward players for using the rules to design the most powerful character possible. Character creation is a competition, and if a player creates a suboptimal character, then that's the player's fault and they have to live with it. Personally, as a GM, I'm all about challenging players *during the game* -- but I generally prefer character creation to not be a competition. I don't want players competing to choose the most powerful options in the system. Instead, I try to work with the players so that the characters are roughly balanced at the start, and then challenge them to use those characters the best *in the game*.

As I see it, making the characters roughly balanced at the start isn't coddling -- it's enabling more real competition.

I can see the validity of your idea in the theoretical sense, but in the practical sense, doing it is going to be nigh impossible.  I believe there's a consensus that advantage/disadvantage point system don't work well, the main objection being that a PC built with large disadvantages usually eventually finds a trick to negate them, then he has a large advantage over the other character.  The wheelchair guy is an extreme case of this.  He faces inability to navigate many types of terrain, including common ones like stair and ladders; even forest trails are going to be tough - I can speak from related experience since I've pushed and carried hiking strollers over quite a few roots, rocks, and steps on rough trails.  He also faces limited very limited mobility in combat, especially if the terrain is not perfect.  There probably should be combat penalties as well, since his ability to, frex, dodge an arrow is limited.  He's going to need a lot of advantages to overcome this.  If he manages to negate his disadvantage, then he's going to be massively more powerful than the other PCs.  That's certainly not fair.  Even worse, the disadvantage is situational:  it's a lot more limiting on a difficult terrain.  So even if you manage to set the advantage so that on average it's equal to the disadvantage, in certain encounters wheelchair guy will be much stronger than his compatriots and and in others, he will be much weaker.  That does not sound like fun for everyone.  And unless you totally negate his disadvantages (which begs the question of why make him in the first place) eventually he's going to hit a the perfect storm where his disadvantages line up with the strengths of the opposition, and he's going to die.

Another objection is that you're negating the player's choice.  Choosing to be wheelchair guy does not just mean that you look like a guy in a wheelchair.  Ask anyone who is in one.  It means you have to work significantly harder to do some of the things your friends are doing, and in the case of several people I know, you develop mental toughness and related positive traits to cope.  If you choose to play wheelchair guy, you're choosing that experience.  Removing the disadvantage or adding compensating advantages eliminates this.

RandyB

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • R
  • Posts: 1218
Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
« Reply #101 on: August 25, 2020, 08:34:02 AM »
Quote from: Razor 007;1146331
So.... Assuming that a Combat Wheelchair exists in medieval fantasy; can you imagine it's scarcity and worth in gold pieces?  Perhaps a genius constructed one for his disabled child?  It's pretty much an artifact; a one of a kind item.  Can you imagine the cost?


So it's exactly the kind of thing a snowflake PC should have from the very beginning of the game. Because special.

tenbones

  • Poobah of the D.O.N.G.
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6165
Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
« Reply #102 on: August 27, 2020, 10:21:27 AM »
Cybernetics.

One of the conceits of cyberpunk is people *willingly* removing their limbs because they're *better* than having meat-limbs. If you're going to gloss over whatever that means without mechanical realities - meta or otherwise, what is the point?

In D&D since 2e you've had options like this. In the Forgotten Realms (which is pretty much kitchen-sink D&D) - Drow have had "cyberlimbs" in the Drow of the Underdark. There is *zero* reason why Priests of Gond couldn't do the same thing. Hell, by the standards established DECADES ago - you could make the case that magitech power-suits or full-body conversions could have happened.

The idea that wheelchairs would be a thing in D&D, as Pundit and everyone else with a shred of common-sense already knows, unless you *really* just wanted to sit in a wheelchair, for your PC, there is no reason to overtly do so. At least not in the sense that there are not many solutions to towards that would make such a condition temporary at best.

Which speaks for the real obvious reasons why this is even a thing...

Spinachcat

  • Toxic SocioCat
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • S
  • Posts: 14805
Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
« Reply #103 on: August 27, 2020, 07:35:12 PM »
Anyone ever see a wheelchair move quickly side to side?

No, because it's a chair with wheels that rolls backward or forward, going to the left or right requires reorientation that is not quick. Thus, there is no dodging incoming attacks. Thus, foes have Advantage against these effectively prone targets.

Outside of the delusional freaks of Twatter, who is going to play a PC who's got Advantage against them 24/7?

Watch some paraplegic wheelchair sports. They're hardcore brave, very strong, totally dedicated and not going to survive melee combat with a black person, oops I meant, an orc.

Okay, maybe against Urkel Orc, but even Cardi-Borc and Beyorcnce will stabby stab them dead.

Warboss Squee

  • Lord of the Dance
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3040
Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
« Reply #104 on: August 27, 2020, 08:39:36 PM »
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1144571
That sounds as a comic book/novel/tv show/movie I would pay to see/read.


It was called Mantis and it only got half a season back in the 90's.