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Author Topic: Clement Sector: The Rules -- a fixed version of Cepheus Engine?  (Read 8795 times)

Tod13

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So, my players and I tried to create characters using Cepheus Engine. Basically, it was horrible. Unless you know how Traveller Character Generation works, you aren't going to figure it out from the rules as written.

As I recall, and was reminded when I saw a post in the advertising forum, Gypsy Knights Games has Clement Sector: The Rules.

Does Clement Sector: The Rules fix the deficiencies in Cepheus Engine, at least as far as character generation is concerned?
Does it have a similar breadth of careers as the Cepheus Engine?
Does it have "unique" careers for aliens?

Thanks!

The Butcher

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Clement Sector: The Rules -- a fixed version of Cepheus Engine?
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2017, 06:56:15 PM »
I can't answer your question but I think I get your complaint (Cepheus chargen is presented more like CT's than MgT1's) and I encourage you, if at all possible, to track down a copy of MgT1.

estar

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Clement Sector: The Rules -- a fixed version of Cepheus Engine?
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2017, 11:27:30 PM »
Character Creation Checklist

1) Characteristics
a) Roll your six characteristics using 2D6, and place them in order on your character sheet.
b) Determine characteristic modifiers.

2) Homeworld (Optional)
a) Determine homeworld.
b) Gain background skills. Character gains a number of background skills at Level 0 equal to 3 + their Education modifier. The first two have to be taken from your homeworld (based on the world's trade codes or law level); the rest are taken from the education list.

3) Career
a) Choose a career. You cannot choose a career you’ve already left except Drifter.
b) Roll to qualify for that career, as indicated in the description of the career. If this is not your first career, you suffer a –2 DM for every previous career in which you have served.
c) If you qualify for this career, go to step 4.
d) If you do not qualify for that career, you can enter the Drifter career or submit to the draft. You may only enter the draft once.

4) Basic training
For your first term in your first career, you get every skill in the service skills table at level 0.
For your first term in subsequent careers, you may pick any one skill from the service skills table at level 0.

5) Survival
Roll for survival, as indicated in the description of the career.
If you succeed, go to step 8.
If you did not succeed, you have died. Alternately, events have forced you from this career. Roll on the mishap table and go to step 10 (you do not receive a benefit roll for this term.)

6) Commission and Advancement
   a) You begin as a Rank 0 character.
b) If your career offers a Commission check and you are Rank 0, you can choose to roll for Commission. If you are successful, you are now Rank 1 in your chosen career. Choose one of the skills and training tables and roll on it for an extra skill. Take any bonus skills from the ranks table for this career.
c) If your career offers an Advancement check and you are Rank 1 or higher, you can choose to roll for Advancement. If you are successful, your Rank improves by one in your chosen career.  Choose one of the skills and training tables and roll on it for an extra skill. Take any bonus skills from the ranks table for this career.  You can roll for Advancement in the same term that you succeed in a Commission roll.

7) Skills and Training
a) Choose one of the Skills and Training tables for this career and roll on it. If you gain a characteristic improvement as a result, apply the change to your characteristic score immediately. If you gain a skill as a result and you do not already have levels in that skill, take it at level 1. If you already have the skill, increase your skill by one level.
b) If your career does not have a Commission or Advancement check, you may roll a second time, choose one of the Skills and Training tables for this career (which may be the same or different from the first table chosen for this term.)

8) Aging
a) Increase your age by 4 years.
b) If your character is 34 or older, roll for aging.

9) Re-enlistment
a) Roll for re-enlistment. If you fail, you must leave this career. If you roll a natural 12, you cannot leave this career and must continue for another term, go to step 5.
b) If you have served a total of seven terms or more in character creation, then you must retire, go to step 10.
c) If you wish to continue in this career, go to step 5.
d) If you wish to leave this career, go to step 10.

10) Benefits
If you are leaving the career, roll for benefits. A character gets one Benefit Roll for every full term served in that career. You also get extra benefit rolls if you reached a higher rank.

11) Next Career
If you’re leaving your current career and your total number of terms in character creation is less than seven, you may go to step 3 to choose a new career or to step 12 if you wish to finish your character.

12) Buy starting equipment
Purchase your starting equipment and, if you can afford it, possibly a starship.

The above is found on page 21 of the modifiable Cepheus Game Engine. Where is it do you have to know Traveller in order to make a character? Seem like a straight step by step procedure for generating a character.

Tod13

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Clement Sector: The Rules -- a fixed version of Cepheus Engine?
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2017, 09:08:57 AM »
Quote from: estar;948423
3) Career
a) Choose a career. You cannot choose a career you’ve already left except Drifter.
b) Roll to qualify for that career, as indicated in the description of the career. If this is not your first career, you suffer a –2 DM for every previous career in which you have served.
c) If you qualify for this career, go to step 4.
d) If you do not qualify for that career, you can enter the Drifter career or submit to the draft. You may only enter the draft once.

5) Survival
Roll for survival, as indicated in the description of the career.
If you succeed, go to step 8.
If you did not succeed, you have died. Alternately, events have forced you from this career. Roll on the mishap table and go to step 10 (you do not receive a benefit roll for this term.)

6) Commission and Advancement
   a) You begin as a Rank 0 character.
b) If your career offers a Commission check and you are Rank 0, you can choose to roll for Commission. If you are successful, you are now Rank 1 in your chosen career. Choose one of the skills and training tables and roll on it for an extra skill. Take any bonus skills from the ranks table for this career.
c) If your career offers an Advancement check and you are Rank 1 or higher, you can choose to roll for Advancement. If you are successful, your Rank improves by one in your chosen career.  Choose one of the skills and training tables and roll on it for an extra skill. Take any bonus skills from the ranks table for this career.  You can roll for Advancement in the same term that you succeed in a Commission roll.

8) Aging
a) Increase your age by 4 years.
b) If your character is 34 or older, roll for aging.

9) Re-enlistment
a) Roll for re-enlistment. If you fail, you must leave this career. If you roll a natural 12, you cannot leave this career and must continue for another term, go to step 5.
b) If you have served a total of seven terms or more in character creation, then you must retire, go to step 10.
c) If you wish to continue in this career, go to step 5.
d) If you wish to leave this career, go to step 10.

The above is found on page 21 of the modifiable Cepheus Game Engine. Where is it do you have to know Traveller in order to make a character? Seem like a straight step by step procedure for generating a character.

Every place that I've marked with bold/underscored/italics. What am I rolling, what is my target, and what modifiers apply? What are the requirements to get in? Is the number given in the table something I need to roll? A requirement? A minimum attribute to get a bonus? The page before (or after?) the section you quoted says the only roll in the game is 2d6 trying to beat an 8. There is definitely a problem for folks who haven't played. It actually really confused even the two people who had never played Traveller, but have spent a lot of time making characters in 3-4 other versions.

Tod13

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Clement Sector: The Rules -- a fixed version of Cepheus Engine?
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2017, 09:12:27 AM »
Quote from: The Butcher;948349
I can't answer your question but I think I get your complaint (Cepheus chargen is presented more like CT's than MgT1's) and I encourage you, if at all possible, to track down a copy of MgT1.

Actually, having it presented like Classic Traveller is fine. The problem is nothing about the table is explained. At least in CT, even with the "fun" layout, everything was explained.

I think my wife and her sister like CT for the wide variety of books and like MegaTraveller for the extra options for events during service, events leading to separation from service, and how they hook the characters together early in service, and provide enemies and allies from previous service.

Baron Opal

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Clement Sector: The Rules -- a fixed version of Cepheus Engine?
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2017, 03:36:59 PM »
Quote from: Tod13;948478
Every place that I've marked with bold/underscored/italics. What am I rolling, what is my target, and what modifiers apply?


You're rolling 2d6, target numbers are per career. Those career tables could be formatted better, certainly.

Quote from: estar;948423
The above is found on page 21 of the modifiable Cepheus Game Engine. Where is it do you have to know Traveller in order to make a character? Seem like a straight step by step procedure for generating a character.


How do you get to steps 6 & 7?

I would believe that you skip Commission and Training on the first term, and then try on subsequent passes. However, that "If you succeed, go to step 8" should probably be a "6".

Tod13

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Clement Sector: The Rules -- a fixed version of Cepheus Engine?
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2017, 04:21:12 PM »
Quote from: Baron Opal;948515
You're rolling 2d6, target numbers are per career. Those career tables could be formatted better, certainly.


That's my point--and hence my questions about Clement Sector. We totally missed the two sentences explaining this (see end of post--I found it while posting). Tell me from those instructions and this table what numbers to use, keeping in mind the only other rolling instructions you are given is to roll above an 8, without using stuff you know from other Traveller versions. We literally had to go "OK, Scouts should be hard to enter and difficult to survive, what numbers do they use?" and make guesses.

[table=class: grid]
[tr]
   [td]Career[/td][td]Athlete[/td][td]Aerospace[/td][td]Defense Agent[/td][td]Barbarian[/td][td]Belter[/td][td]Bureaucrat[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
   [td]Qualifications[/td][td]End 8+[/td][td]End 5+[/td][td]Soc 6+[/td][td]End 5+[/td][td]Int 4+[/td][td]Soc 6+[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
   [td]Survival[/td][td]Dex 5+[/td][td]Dex 5+[/td][td]Int 6+[/td][td]Str 6+[/td][td]Dex 7+[/td][td]Edu 4+[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
   [td]Commission[/td][td]--[/td][td]Edu 6+[/td][td]Edu 7+[/td][td]--[/td][td]--[/td][td]Soc 5+[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
   [td]Advancement[/td][td]--[/td][td]Edu 7+[/td][td]Edu 6+[/td][td]--[/td][td]--[/td][td]Int 8+[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
   [td]Re-enlistment[/td][td]6+[/td][td]5+[/td][td]6+[/td][td]5+[/td][td]5+[/td][td]5+[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]

Is Qualifications a minimum attribute value needed to join?
Is Survival a minimum attribute value for a bonus?
Actually, I think it is supposed to be "use your and roll 2d6 trying to beat the number given".
But that isn't at all obvious...

It is on page 26 of the PDF, but all four of us missed it. I just found it--buried at the end of a paragraph of non-mechanical "fluff". (Attributes are meet or beat the number and skills are beat the number?)

Quote
Characters in the Cepheus Engine do not start at the age of majority and jump immediately into play with only
their background skills. Instead, characters gain experience by pursuing one of twenty-four different careers.
The random nature of career paths (also known as prior history or prior careers) leads to characters of all levels
of experience, and from all walks of life. A character gains more skills the longer they stay in character creation,
but not without risk of aging. Player choices will have great impact on the final disposition of a character.
At many points during a career, a character will have to make a throw of some sort. Most of these throws are
characteristic throws – roll 2D6, add the DM from the listed characteristic, and try to get a total higher than the
listed value. A throw of Int 8+ means ‘roll 2D6, add your Intelligence DM, and you succeed if you roll an 8 or
more’. A few throws are skill checks, where you add any levels in that skill and the DM from an appropriate
characteristic, if specified. For example, a throw of Gambling 8+ would mean ‘roll 2D6, add your Gambling skill
and the DM from an appropriate characteristic such as Dexterity, if specified, and get over 8’.

Tod13

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Clement Sector: The Rules -- a fixed version of Cepheus Engine?
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2017, 04:30:54 PM »
Quote from: Baron Opal;948515
How do you get to steps 6 & 7?

I would believe that you skip Commission and Training on the first term, and then try on subsequent passes. However, that "If you succeed, go to step 8" should probably be a "6".

We went through that too. We took it to mean no Commission or Training on the first term.

It is just a handful of little things that make really big barriers.

estar

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Clement Sector: The Rules -- a fixed version of Cepheus Engine?
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2017, 07:12:56 AM »
Quote from: Tod13;948478
Every place that I've marked with bold/underscored/italics. What am I rolling, what is my target, and what modifiers apply? What are the requirements to get in? Is the number given in the table something I need to roll? A requirement? A minimum attribute to get a bonus? The page before (or after?) the section you quoted says the only roll in the game is 2d6 trying to beat an 8. There is definitely a problem for folks who haven't played. It actually really confused even the two people who had never played Traveller, but have spent a lot of time making characters in 3-4 other versions.

b) Roll to qualify for that career, as indicated in the description of the career. If this is not your first career, you suffer a –2 DM for every previous career in which you have served.

For example End 8+ for Athletes.

In the general description of careers we have this

Quote
At many points during a career, a character will have to make a throw of some sort. Most of these throws are characteristic throws – roll 2D6, add the DM from the listed characteristic, and try to get a total higher than the listed value. A throw of Int 8+ means ‘roll 2D6, add your Intelligence DM, and you succeed if you roll an 8 or more’. A few throws are skill checks, where you add any levels in that skill and the DM from an appropriate characteristic, if specified. For example, a throw of Gambling 8+ would mean ‘roll 2D6, add your Gambling skill and the DM from an appropriate characteristic such as Dexterity, if specified, and get over 8’.

 The use of 2d6 is pervasive throughout the documents so I think most gamers without any exposure to traveller would get it. However it is a open content reference document to be used as a foundation for one's own take. So it makes sense to write a more verbose version targeted at novice roleplayers or people new to Traveller.



is more than fine

Also there is this from careers.

estar

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Clement Sector: The Rules -- a fixed version of Cepheus Engine?
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2017, 07:17:52 AM »
Quote from: Baron Opal;948515
You're rolling 2d6, target numbers are per career. Those career tables could be formatted better, certainly.

I would believe that you skip Commission and Training on the first term, and then try on subsequent passes. However, that "If you succeed, go to step 8" should probably be a "6".

That doesn't make sense. You start at Rank 0, you roll survival, if the career has a commission roll you make it after your first survival roll because you qualify right then as you are rank 0. Then if you are commissioned you are at rank 1 and thus qualify for part c the advancement roll.

If you are lucky you will get two extra skill rolls your first term.

Baron Opal

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Clement Sector: The Rules -- a fixed version of Cepheus Engine?
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2017, 12:09:42 PM »
I think you need to read steps 5 and 9 a little closer. You never reach steps 6 and 7 in the flow chart.

However, I agree with you as to the intent.

You pick a career.
See if you get in.
See if you survive.
See if you excel.
Determine which one skill, two if you excel, you get this term.
See if you can't / can / must continue the career.
Do another term, pick a new career, or end character creation.

Independence Games

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Clement Sector: The Rules -- a fixed version of Cepheus Engine?
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2017, 07:27:50 AM »
Quote from: Tod13;948326
So, my players and I tried to create characters using Cepheus Engine. Basically, it was horrible. Unless you know how Traveller Character Generation works, you aren't going to figure it out from the rules as written.

As I recall, and was reminded when I saw a post in the advertising forum, Gypsy Knights Games has Clement Sector: The Rules.

Does Clement Sector: The Rules fix the deficiencies in Cepheus Engine, at least as far as character generation is concerned?
Does it have a similar breadth of careers as the Cepheus Engine?
Does it have "unique" careers for aliens?

Thanks!


Perhaps I can help answer your questions.

1> I'd like to think so.  Clement Sector: The Rules is our modification to The Cepheus Engine to make it fit our Clement Sector setting.  So we have modified and bent several rules to make them compatible with our setting.  Character generation is one of those rules.  

2> While the rules for character generation are in CS:R, all of the careers are in the Clement Sector Core Setting Book.

Those careers are: Celebrity, Colonist, Diplomatic Service, Explorer, Free Trader, Journalist, Medic, National Navy, Orbital Construction, Pirate, Sports, Spy, System Defense Forces (Navy), System Defense Forces (Ground Forces), System Defense Forces (Wet Navy), and Vagabond.

In our character generation, you have rolls (most used 2d6 and some using d100) which take you from birth until you come out into the game.  You can roll (or choose) your homeworld, discover aspects of your childhood and teenage years, go through college (if you desire) and then head into one or more careers.

3> There are no unique careers for aliens because there are no aliens in our setting.  We do have uplifts (animals which have been raised to sentience) and altrants (humans which have been altered to live in harsh locations).  One of our newest books, Wondrous Menagerie: Uplifts in Clement Sector, adds more uplifted animals and gives a "slave" career which gives you an idea how uplifts are treated on some worlds.

I hope that helps.  I would recommend that you get both the rules and the setting if you want to get the full effect.  

Right now the books are on sale in two locations.  Open Game Store is running a 40% off sale which last until Monday (the 6th).  DTRPG is running a 30% off sale that runs until the 13th.  

If you can't buy during the sale, we have the core books bundled on DTRPG.  You can find that bundle here and it's 20% off every day.  So...during the sale, it would behoove you to buy the books individually as they don't put the bundles on sale.
John Watts
Owner/President
Independence Games (formerly Gypsy Knights Games)

Home of Clement Sector and Action Movie Physics!

Our company website.

Independence Games

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Clement Sector: The Rules -- a fixed version of Cepheus Engine?
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2017, 07:29:10 AM »
Quote from: The Butcher;948349
I can't answer your question but I think I get your complaint (Cepheus chargen is presented more like CT's than MgT1's) and I encourage you, if at all possible, to track down a copy of MgT1.


Something to keep in mind is that the character generation in our Clement Sector: The Rules is much more like MgT1 than CT.
John Watts
Owner/President
Independence Games (formerly Gypsy Knights Games)

Home of Clement Sector and Action Movie Physics!

Our company website.

Tod13

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Clement Sector: The Rules -- a fixed version of Cepheus Engine?
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2017, 06:23:45 PM »
Quote from: Gypsy Knights Games;948858
Something to keep in mind is that the character generation in our Clement Sector: The Rules is much more like MgT1 than CT.

Thanks for the other, longer, reply too. I appreciate the time.

We're fine with MgT1 style setup--it has some benefits to it. As you can tell from the thread, the issues weren't so much the format but the content.

estar

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Clement Sector: The Rules -- a fixed version of Cepheus Engine?
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2017, 12:19:49 PM »
Quote from: Baron Opal;948632
I think you need to read steps 5 and 9 a little closer. You never reach steps 6 and 7 in the flow chart.

While it doesn't explictly tell you to go from 5 to 6, step 6 (and 7) covers what conditions they apply.

a) You begin as a Rank 0 character.
Self explanatory

b) If your career offers a Commission check and you are Rank 0, you can choose to roll for Commission.
6 is after 5 so you check that after the survival roll. You don' t need to refer to traveller to understand this.

c) If your career offers an Advancement check and you are Rank 1 or higher,

Again can't get simpler.


The problem with just a simple 5 to 6 to 7 to 8 to 9 format is that 6 and 7 are conditional. It obvious that this section setup to go from 1 to 9 with a loop between 5 and 9.

Furthermore the later decision where they supply the tables and specific rules reinforces the above.

While I am sure a slightly better version can be written it doesn't require knowledge of Traveller to use and stands on its own.

Finally it fine that some people need a different explanation to get how it works. It happens all the time. Nothing However what I am arguing against it is somehow flawed and require the Traveller rules to understand.