Quote from: Caesar SlaadMost D20 variants (ergo most class systems) have advantages. They are called feats.

ehhh.. In a *very* rough sense. Feats in 3e (and the d20 stuff I have seen) tend to be much more combat-related than the equivalent Advantages (or Talents/Perks) in FUZION or GURPS, for instance. Advantages in the aforementioned systems are broader in focus and tend to cover everything from photographic memory and contortionism to great mathematical proficiency.

QuoteAs far as I've seen, they only get treated like a point farm, and players only pick ones they think they can avoid. Games like 7th Sea, Spirit of the Century, Haven d20, Spycraft, and the like (not all class systems, mind you) have flaws that only reward you when they are an obstacle are much more palatable IMO.

That's why you game with players that will actually care about roleplaying their characters (with deficiencies and all) and not with those that only care about bashing the next Orc's head in.

Quote from: Lancerehhh.. In a *very* rough sense. Feats in 3e (and the d20 stuff I have seen) tend to be much more combat-related than the equivalent Advantages (or Talents/Perks) in FUZION or GURPS, for instance.

There's a reason for that: they are the main mechanism for fighter's development.

Some other d20 games like True20 and Spycraft have less of a combat focus and give non-warrior style classes bonus feat access and thus have/require a more balanced selection of feats.

It seems that, as often the case, when people are saying "class based", they really mean D&D/3e, when really that's not generalizable.

QuoteAdvantages in the aforementioned systems tend to cover everything from psychological and social complications to personal hygiene.

Wait, you skipped a beat, from talking about feats/advantages to "psychological and social complications to personal hygiene." Sounds like disads to me.

Anyways, I was responding to another part of your post when you replied, so I'll add it here:

Quote from: LancerA "can't do" is just that, a "can't do." As long as those exist, I won't have the complete freedom to create a character the way I want to. To me, that sux although YMMV. The buddies that you speak of can still help you in a point buy system.

Sometimes a "can't do" is a "shouldn't do". I've seen in many point based games, player lacking decisiveness spreading their points around instead of being really good at anything, which makes for ineffective characters that aren't really suited for team play.

Quote from: Caesar SlaadWait, you skipped a beat, from talking about feats/advantages to "psychological and social complications to personal hygiene." Sounds like disads to me.

Yeah.. My bad .. You replied before I realized my mishap and edited my post..
Read it now.

Quote from: Caesar SlaadThere's a reason for that: they are the main mechanism for fighter's development.

Some other d20 games like True20 and Spycraft have less of a combat focus and give non-warrior style classes bonus feat access and thus have/require a more balanced selection of feats.

As I don't play or know much about True 20, I really have nothing to add here.

QuoteSometimes a "can't do" is a "shouldn't do". I've seen in many point based games, player lacking decisiveness spreading their points around instead of being really good at anything, which makes for ineffective characters that aren't really suited for team play.

This is a valid concern, but then again this is why templates are so very helpful.

Quote from: LancerThat's why you game with players that will actually care about roleplaying their characters (with deficiencies and all) and not with those that only care about bashing the next Orc's head in.

(shrug). I'll play with good players without making snooty value judgments about why they game, and I'll do it in a game that lets them play alongside each other and not make the role-play heavy folk feel inadequate next to the combat-thrill folks. Seems the best solution to me.

Quote from: Caesar Slaad(shrug). I'll play with good players without making snooty value judgments about why they game, and I'll do it in a game that lets them play alongside each other and not make the role-play heavy folk feel inadequate next to the combat-thrill folks. Seems the best solution to me.

Agreed. I am not making a value judgement but just pointing out one way to resolve the issue.. And I honestly mean that in the least offensive manner possible. On the other hand, I am somewhat choosy about who I game with and I just don't play with *anybody.*

The other way, of course, (which you seem to imply) is to reward players for roleplaying in general (be it their Disads, combat, ..etc) That's what I do.
This would discourage said players from trying to min-max by picking Disads that they feel will have the least impact in the game.
Point buy or Class-based, such resolutions are independent of the system you prefer to use.

Quote from: LancerThe other way, of course, (which you seem to omply) is to reward players for roleplaying in general (be it their Disads, combat, ..etc) That's what I do.

Well, I DO do that, but that's something different. What I am speaking about here is mechanics like Spirit of the Century's aspects, 7th Sea's flaws, and Spycraft's subplots that work a bit like disadvantages, but only compensate the players when the disadvantage actually becomes a problem.

QuotePoint buy or Class-based, such resolutions are independent of the system you prefer to use.

Right, we are on a tangent. As I implied when I said above this is not just talking about class based any more. Class based or not, my preference is:

(1) "Per incident" style disads
(2) No disads
(3) "Up front" disads.
In that order.

I can think of class based on non-class based games that feature each. :cool:

Quote from: Caesar SlaadWell, I DO do that, but that's something different. What I am speaking about here is mechanics like Spirit of the Century's aspects, 7th Sea's flaws, and Spycraft's subplots that work a bit like disadvantages, but only compensate the players when the disadvantage actually becomes a problem.

Right like getting bonus XP in 7th Sea whenever a Disad shows up in play, or fate points in SotC whenever an Aspect is unfavorable for a character...

That's surely another way to do it.