Again, I think this is something so fundamentally a matter of preference as to negate any type of right or wrong.

That said, I prefer mine in the middle. I am not a fan of strict classing like "I am a Thief and do nothing else outside of my profession" nor am I particularly fond of a free for all, although I would take it over the former.

What I prefer is more what I would call professional incentives. If you choose to be a thief, apply yourself, then you will have some advantages. If you choose to change, well, then it should cost but fine. Being a profession means you have some advantages but guess what? You might not be as good as the guy who is spending all his time practicing to pick locks or the like.

So far, I have not found a system that models this well.

Bill

I hate classes as the foundation of a system.  I just can't stand the restrictions that arise.  A system with open-ended chargen that then sits classes on top of that for learning, speed, convenience or genre-capturing purposes is fine with me.  I just don't want to play in a game where the system tells me "x class can't do y."  

That's just my personal taste.  I think there are a lot of good arguments for why others like classes and I am happy to live in a world where we have choice.

I prefer classes or similar structures.

Simplifying chargen is just one benefit. I also like that they help define the scope of the game and the conflicts therein, that they give players ideas and minimize mistakes and omissions of important abilities that contribute to the concept.

Classes are almost rendered obsolete due to the "Packages" and "Templates" of point buy systems. I'd say that templates are almost always better than classes.

Templates manage to add flavor by giving the player a quick character concept while not forcing said player into a rigid framework. In addition, by not being forced into a class, a player getting sudden inspiration from looking at a template, and wishing to make slight modifications,is free to do so without fear of the rulebook saying that he can't do that.

EDIT: That said, there may be circumstances where Classes would be better for a particular game.. For example, classes may be better if your game is intentionally trying to parody or mimic D&D.

Quote from: LancerTemplates manage to add flavor by giving the player a quick character concept while not forcing said player into a rigid framework.

Have you looked at True20 or Saga Star Wars?  I wouldn't really call the classes rigid.  In both cases, each class has many ways to go and you can multiclass to grab anything not available to the class.  Even D&D 3 classes are a far cry from AD&D classes in terms of flexibility.

I generally don't care for wide open point systems where everything comes form one pool of points.  But something that's fairly wide open like BRP is fine for me.  So is something like D6 which is effectively point buy with an initial template.

Classes are freakin brilliant, because classes are the pole star to PC identity within the rules. Classes cuts through the rigamarole of Ads/Disads, skills, traits and powers that seem to litter many point buy games, and cut right to a useful and identifiable character. Templates are just proof of that usefulness for players and GMs.

Now I can see where classes don't always make the best sense, especially for settings. IMO, I don't think classes are a good fit for emulating more modern and realistic types of settings. But if it's sci/fi or fantasy, classes are fantastic.

Quote from: JamesVClasses are freakin brilliant, because classes are the pole star to PC identity within the rules. Classes cuts through the rigamarole of Ads/Disads, skills, traits and powers that seem to litter many point buy games, and cut right to a useful and identifiable character. Templates are just proof of that usefulness for players and GMs.

Now I can see where classes don't always make the best sense, especially for settings. IMO, I don't think classes are a good fit for emulating more modern and realistic types of settings. But if it's sci/fi or fantasy, classes are fantastic.

See, I would say the same from a "profession" point buy system. That is to say, to say in a point buy system that you are a Con Man means that you have some base skills in common but more importantly, it is what you do.

So, I am agreeing with you but from the point buy side.

Bill

Quote from: NicephorusHave you looked at True20 or Saga Star Wars?  I wouldn't really call the classes rigid.  In both cases, each class has many ways to go and you can multiclass to grab anything not available to the class.  Even D&D 3 classes are a far cry from AD&D classes in terms of flexibility.

When I talk about classes being rigid that includes 3.x/d20, not just AD&D.
No, I haven't studied True20 nor Star Wars Saga in great detail but I have boycotted anything d20/3.x since trying out/playing 3e and deciding it wasn't my cup of tea...  In any case, True 20 and the like are still rigid compared to good point buy systems.

QuoteI generally don't care for wide open point systems where everything comes form one pool of points.

I like to be able to create the character I want to play, JUST the way I want it. No more no less. And, the points need not necessarily come from just one pool, BTW.

My favorite point buy systems are the ones that give the player the option to choose among professional templates, racial templates(if applicable), as well as background templates- thereby giving players clearly-defined character concepts that they can just pick and play almost immediately. Done carefully, character creation in a point buy system is a smooth and quick affair. It is in my favorite system.


As a roleplayer that started off with OD&D and AD&D, and played them for many years,  I used to be the biggest fanboy of character classes... That is until I had discovered the world of point buy systems and packages/templates. There is just no comparison. Character classes are just so archaic (now more than ever) in the year 2008. Whereas most other rule systems have left classes behind and the hobby has evolved and seen many innovations over the years, 3.x/d20 still lag behind with holdovers from the beginnings of the hobby (levels, character classes, multiclassing, XP, and in cases, even alignments...etc). They may have been state of the art then, but they look so stale now no matter how many fancy bells and whistles the "newer" attempts try to put in that old rusty motor.

Nostalgia and Familiarity are good up to a certain point-- but taken too far, they become the enemy of innovation.

Of course, all this IMHO.

I love classes.

Quote from: JamesVClasses cuts through the rigamarole of Ads/Disads, skills, traits and powers that seem to litter many point buy games, and cut right to a useful and identifiable character.

So in your view, how would you define a "useful and identifiable character?"

QuoteTemplates are just proof of that usefulness for players and GMs.

Well, without all those restrictions and "cant dos" from classes, of course.

I have absolutely no time for classes; assuming we're defining the term fairly precisely. I find them cartoonish and constricting. I don't think they're a good simulation of reality or a good way to define an individual character.

Point-buy surely isn't the only way to handle a game without classes. There's the broad ability approach of OtE, Risus and HQ. There's the BRP approach. There's Traveller. You'd think all there'd ever been was D&D and GURPS.

While it might be true of other games, I don't see True20 classes as being rigid at all. I have had no trouble yet in easily modeling any character concept right from the start. On top of that, it avoids the book-keeping and min/maxing of point-buy.

Quote from: SigmundWhile it might be true of other games, I don't see True20 classes as being rigid at all. I have had no trouble yet in easily modeling any character concept right from the start. On top of that, it avoids the book-keeping and min/maxing of point-buy.

There's also the role creation rules included in the Companion. With them you can create bespoke character classes within minutes. I think it's a nifty variant of point-buy, offering greater freedom than the default method whilst maintaining the ease of progression and niche protection that classes typically provide.

The rules will be included in the updated coreboook published later this year.

Quote from: DrewThere's also the role creation rules included in the Companion. With them you can create bespoke character classes within minutes. I think it's a nifty variant of point-buy, offering greater freedom than the default method whilst maintaining the ease of progression and niche protection that classes typically provide.

The rules will be included in the updated coreboook published later this year.

True enough. I have the companion, but have not yet delved into using the role creation rules since what I already have has been enough. They are indeed there though, for anyone needing more

Quote from: SigmundTrue enough. I have the companion, but have not yet delved into using the role creation rules since what I already have has been enough. They are indeed there though, for anyone needing more

Indeed. It's probably my favourite set of optional rules for True20. Very fast, very simple and 100% compatible with the existing system. There's zero danger of creating some insanely overpowered hybrid, either.