Quote from: jhkim;1039306Can you unpack what you mean by "make it relevant"?  For example, some others have criticized the example of Dala the cutpurse in Temple of Elemental Evil - that her relationship with Dick Rentsch is irrelevant information that should be cut.  What's your feeling on NPCs like that?

I don't have TEE, but do the relationships play a role in the module?

If they do, then its not extraneous. AKA, Chekhov's Gun.

And I'm not saying it MUST be mandatory to the core of the module, but worth the brain space for the DM.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1039310Aaand update!

Holy shit!

a) I didn't know Larry Correia was an active RPGer.

b) WTF is wrong with Origins and GAMA?

Quote from: jhkim;1039338Hi, NYTFLYR.  What do you think of old-school material like Dala the cutpurse and other examples I pointed out in Post #202? Do you think Gary Gygax was wrong to put in such information in the module?

Also, I noticed your Fists and .45s link.  It has a "Drop Dead Gorgeous" trait that helps with Seduction and High Society rolls.  Does that ever come up in play?

Drop Dead Gorgeous is a trait, like lock-picking, its not Bob the barbarian has a secret fetish where he dreams of bubble-baths being administered by well oiled teen male halflings wearing studded leather thongs. that is nothing more than the author projecting how they want you to run your game. with the example "She is Dick Rentsch's lover", that makes it a tidbit of information that the GM could work in if he wanted to, but unless its actually part of the information needed for the game its unnecessary, I mean why should we care that she is his lover?

Nobody in the games I've played cared who was bedding who (or what). if that's important to your game, go right ahead, but that's it, its YOUR game, you shouldn't have to have every finite unrelated tidbit of information written out for you, unless you have the imagination of a snail....

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1039335So apparently you do give some of a shit.

Next he'll be telling us how many black friends he has.

Quote from: NYTFLYR;1039322Right, as you say, its there in the title... its Dungeons and Dragons, not Butt-sex and Barbarians. In my 35 years of gaming I have never seen a player's or an NPC's sexual orientation come into play...

No Kings and Queens sitting on their thrones?  No romance subplots driving assassination attempts?  My goodness.

Half of all mystery plots seem to be based on lust and romance (the other half being driven by money and inheritance).  You should try it sometime.

Quote from: jcfiala;1039414No Kings and Queens sitting on their thrones?  No romance subplots driving assassination attempts?  My goodness.

Half of all mystery plots seem to be based on lust and romance (the other half being driven by money and inheritance).  You should try it sometime.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1039415

Amusingly, either my browser or this forum says that the image isn't secure, and recommends me not to look at it.

What's it show?

Quote from: Spinachcat;1039344Holy shit!

a) I didn't know Larry Correia was an active RPGer.

b) WTF is wrong with Origins and GAMA?

What really astonished me yesterday was that Larry was invited, and then rejected, by Origins in a 4 hour period, and it seemed like nobody much noticed.  No commentary here or on the big purple, not much of a mention anywhere.  I mean, yeah, Larry's big fans were yelping about it, and file770 is contractually obligated to comment on anything to do with the poor sad puppies who insisted on participation trophies, but everyone else just didn't give a shit.

Which, y'know, Origins.  Most people just show up to game and shop, and don't even notice who the guests of honor are.

Quote from: jcfiala;1039416Amusingly, either my browser or this forum says that the image isn't secure, and recommends me not to look at it.

What's it show?

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2500[/ATTACH]

PS: You don't see the SSL announcement at the top of the forum?

Quote from: jhkim;1039306Can you unpack what you mean by "make it relevant"?  For example, some others have criticized the example of Dala the cutpurse in Temple of Elemental Evil - that her relationship with Dick Rentsch is irrelevant information that should be cut.  What's your feeling on NPCs like that?

Let's make a few stipulations here. A module (or adventure if it pleases) is a different thing than the rules of the game. D&D gets murky, especially since 3e where the conceits of the rules and settings get intermingled. I have *zero* problems with designers putting whatever they want into their modules, because it's take it or leave it.

But having a gay character in a module, much like having a gay character in a work of fiction is not the issue. The issue in both cases are - is it meaningful? In other words is the point of highlighting someone's sexual preference there for the purposes of the adventure/story? Or is it simply there to signal to people with a wink "Hey look! I'm thinking about you too" (which is not meaningful to the game or the fiction). This goes with any form of ego-identification. If you're doing an adventure where having *sex* is part of the adventure, say around a brothel, or there are specific goals required like seduction, then great! It's meaningful to the game. Otherwise it should be up to the GM to decide what an NPC *is* and what that NPC's proclivities are in game. Or anything else the GM wants to tack on to the NPC in order to customize it to their game. Otherwise if it's going to be implicit to the sandbox, I'll assume the designers have fleshed it all out in accordance with the conceits of the setting to establish why it even matters.

Again, as I always say, context is king. If the game assumes you can play any way you want, the setting doesn't necessarily mean that. Dala and Rentch are lovers because the setting has no assumptive issue with hetero-normative relationships<---- this is the hangup that post-modern SJW's have an issue with. Because it's the appearance of hetero-normative reactions that they want for LGBT+ representation and they want it as a conceit of gameplay not of anything else. Which for me, that cleaves a little closer to quasi-historical realities is silly. For the same reason if you play a Half-orc in most of my games, it could be a social issue in certain locations or settings. It could also be a huge benefit socially in certain settings/locations. It DEPENDS. Just like I'll have LGBT NPC's all over the place, and to the degree that it even comes out depends greatly on the context.

Just saying an NPC is gay, or a specific race or whatever means little if you, as a GM, aren't going to do anything with it. Otherwise it's just pandering and window-dressing (or worse as others put it - virtue signalling).

I'll be honest - one of the things that has pushed me away from D&D's modern primary settings which is directly related to this lack of setting context that is purely ideological and has nothing to do with these real-world examples of identity politics is the "Freakshow" issue that's been talked about in many threads.

The proliferation of tons of non-traditional D&D races has never been a big deal (I love Spelljammer for that exact reason - anything goes). But in your standard Eurocentric quasi-medieval Greyhawk/Realms (unless you're playing in one of the obvious outlier locations in those worlds) the advent of those snowflake races has become so ubiquitous that many people assume it's normal for a Half-drow, an Aasimar, a Tiefling, Half-orc, Human, Wood-elf and Deep-Gnome party is just hanging around a tavern without context. And I've had players give me incredulous looks when I tell them when they are playing something like that it might pose some circumstantial issues. But I rarely say no because I'd rather give them *context* as to why they're even there. And I generally make it clear why it matters. The consequences of which could be an adventure unto itself.

Adding a layer of real-world identity politics into a fantasy setting *without* context is not only meaningless it's a bit insulting. If I had a GM suddenly started making random NPC's look like feudal-Japanese folks while I'm adventuring in Cormyr or Furyondy just to make me feel "included" my first assumption is "Oh there might be some reason there are Japanese-stuff going on!" and I might pursue checking it out if my character is so inclined. But if I found out it was just there for window-dressing then I'd be annoyed. This is the difference of putting such contextual things in a module vs. putting it in the overall rules where those things should be assumed from the beginning. And the GM gets to decide when/where to make those things matter. Not by proscription.

WotC is not doing that. It's pretty obvious just from the tweets of their designers. And hey - I say go for it. They want to lose money unnecessarily, just like Marvel did, that's on them. There is a way to thread that needle. But they're too busy fighting their own make-believe war at the expense of the quality of their product to see that. That's money that will be spent elsewhere.

Edit: to bring this full circle - this attitude about SJW's is not about women, or gender issues, or race. It's about groupthink infecting a bunch of ideologues trying to deconstruct everything that they decide is their ideological opposite. To which they invent these purity-tests that inevitably blows up in their faces. This is why they often eat themselves when they find themselves invariably contradicting their own positions publicly when reality slaps them in the head. See: Marvel Comics

This whole #MeToo thing has been co-opted almost from the get-go. So you have the usual suspects weaponizing it for their own needs over the actual victims of such crimes. Assuming of course there were actual crimes. See: SPF

Quote from: Ras Algethi;1039418PS: You don't see the SSL announcement at the top of the forum?

I guess I didn't.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1039415

Well of course it's a strawman!  I'm not trying to seriously argue here.  I'm throwing shit at people in this channel.

(Especially when Anon shows up.)

Quote from: NYTFLYR;1039393Drop Dead Gorgeous is a trait, like lock-picking, its not Bob the barbarian has a secret fetish where he dreams of bubble-baths being administered by well oiled teen male halflings wearing studded leather thongs. that is nothing more than the author projecting how they want you to run your game. with the example "She is Dick Rentsch's lover", that makes it a tidbit of information that the GM could work in if he wanted to, but unless its actually part of the information needed for the game its unnecessary, I mean why should we care that she is his lover?

The fact that Drop Dead Gorgeous gives a bonus to Seduction rolls implies that seduction is a reasonable part of the game. For example, a wealthy heiress is funding the villain's expedition and has the secret plans in a safe in her office. The GM expects the PCs to break in and has the guards and alarms worked out. However, one player thinks to use a High Society roll to get an invitation to a party at her place, and succeeds on a Seduction roll to seduce her. This gives the PCs access to get at the safe. The NPCs sexuality was thus important to the plot (along with the gender of the PC attempting the seduction).

Further, even if there is absolutely no seduction or romance in the game, sexuality can matter because of the relationships it forms. For example, the fact that Dala is Dick Rentsch's lover will affect how she acts. If he is captured by the PCs, she might endanger herself to rescue him, for example. If their relationship was left out of the module, and they were just two NPCs at that location, then that wouldn't be likely.

Tenbones, that was an awesome post. Extremely well put.

Quote from: jhkim;1039426If their relationship was left out of the module, and they were just two NPCs at that location, then that wouldn't be likely.

Unless that relationship was friendship. Like, I dunno, Frodo and Sam or Farhfrd and Mouser or Kirk and Spock etc etc

Quote from: Ras Algethi;1039395Next he'll be telling us how many black friends he has.

I wasn't going to go there, but I was thinking it.